Poll

Want to see Dave have a look at Bybee Technology's audio Quantum Purifiers?

Yes
18 (23.7%)
No
58 (76.3%)

Total Members Voted: 76

Voting closed: October 21, 2017, 10:05:41 pm

Author Topic: Bybee's Lament  (Read 13282 times)

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Offline Fungus

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #50 on: September 26, 2017, 04:06:24 pm »
Referring to High School physics is an even less compelling argument

Yep. The really compelling argument (IMHO) is the "Here's $1,000,000 for anybody who can hear the difference in a blind test" argument.

As noted earlier: The prize is still unclaimed after a decade.

Conclusion: The "blind" part is 100% of the difference in sound.

ie. The pretty cables sound just like Walmart lamp cord when you cover them up with a cloth.

More importantly: If removing a cloth can improve sound then so can wrapping bread bag ties around the cables.

What the F. Is any of you over the [mental] age of 14?
Not me!

OTOH I'm of sufficient physical age to know that what you want has been done many times before, always with zero results.

Reason: Bread bag ties really do work!  :)

I am out of here.

G'bye!

« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 04:15:36 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline Alex Nikitin

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #51 on: September 26, 2017, 11:01:01 pm »
Yep. The really compelling argument (IMHO) is the "Here's $1,000,000 for anybody who can hear the difference in a blind test" argument.

As noted earlier: The prize is still unclaimed after a decade.

Conclusion: The "blind" part is 100% of the difference in sound.

ie. The pretty cables sound just like Walmart lamp cord when you cover them up with a cloth.

More importantly: If removing a cloth can improve sound then so can wrapping bread bag ties around the cables.


And here we have exactly the same game as all these fraudsters from audio use (which makes you one of them  ;) ). Your "conclusion" is false, as you assumed that a blind test is a valid tool to use. Imagine that you measure a 9V battery  with a 1000V scale needle voltmeter. Both fresh and almost discharged battery would give the same "0" reading, and you would safely conclude that there is no difference between them. That is exactly what you (and the rest of DBT crowd) do with the "blind test " argument. Blind tests are notoriously insensitive, especially if you try to build up a reasonable number of tries to make it statistically viable. Almost the only difference reliably noticed in these tests is "sound/no sound"  :-DD . I am exaggerating but please point me in the direction of a statistically valid DBT with a positive result (that is, where a subjective difference was confirmed) in the sound quality area.

Actually , the "blind test argument" in audio is one of the biggest frauds, forget all these snake oil salesmen, their tricks only work on idiots with deep pockets  ::) .

Cheers

Alex
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #52 on: September 26, 2017, 11:26:46 pm »
Sorry - but all that ^ ^ ^ ^ makes no sense.

The purpose of a double blind test is to prove the is no subjective difference.

Your 1000V  meter on a 9V battery is ridiculous as well.  The audiological equivalent would be having a listener sit 1000 feet from the speakers with the volume set for a listener at 9 feet.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 11:29:24 pm by Brumby »
 
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Offline Alex Nikitin

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #53 on: September 26, 2017, 11:40:01 pm »
Sorry - but all that ^ ^ ^ ^ makes no sense.

The purpose of a double blind test is to prove the is no subjective difference.

Your 1000V  meter on a 9V battery is ridiculous as well.  The audiological equivalent would be having a listener sit 1000 feet from the speakers with the volume set for a listener at 9 feet.

It makes perfect sense. It is obviously very convenient to use a tool that always gives a negative result to prove that there is no difference - if that is the result you want :palm: . Same with a 1000V meter and 9V battery - if you want to prove there is no difference between batteries (for whatever reason  :-DD ) . If you prefer a more accurate analogy, you can use a broken meter, which always shows zero volts, no matter what the input is  ::) .

Cheers

Alex
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 11:45:40 pm by Alex Nikitin »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #54 on: September 26, 2017, 11:48:18 pm »
It is obviously very convenient to use a tool that always gives a negative result to prove that there is no difference - if that is the result you want :palm:

Ummm... it doesn't always give a negative result.

If you want a stupid hyperbolic example: Do you think nobody would be able to A/B test the difference between $3 bluetooth speaker and the $250k HiFi mentioned earlier in this thread.
 

Offline Alex Nikitin

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #55 on: September 26, 2017, 11:51:09 pm »
It is obviously very convenient to use a tool that always gives a negative result to prove that there is no difference - if that is the result you want :palm:

Ummm... it doesn't always give a negative result.

If you want a stupid hyperbolic example: Do you think nobody would be able to A/B test the difference between $3 bluetooth speaker and the $250k HiFi mentioned earlier in this thread.

You've just proved my point, didn't you?

 8)

Cheers

Alex

P.S. - on a more serious note - you can not use a tool with an unknown sensitivity. It needs to be calibrated - and it is not possible without statistically valid positive results. My guess is that you've tried to find some already and drawn blank... . ;)
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 11:57:05 pm by Alex Nikitin »
 

Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #56 on: September 26, 2017, 11:51:56 pm »
I have to get one of those pwbelectronics 'spiratube' devices, they are well known to improve the aura of negative electrons - changing them to the more satisfying phase coherent positive electrons, so improving the immersion of the listener in the hyperspatial quantum environment, essential for appreciating the macrosonic nuances of 6th dimensional sound echos.

edit : from the comments below , I don't think you realise this was a joke.......

I did get it!  ;D

A related story, from the place I work.

We were having network errors at certain building locations. A lot of people were involved, because one of those locations was the General Director's office.
Long story short; one of the engineers assisting the troubleshooting found the root cause: tight cable ties were slowing the current flow on the CAT5 cable!
I'm not making this up.

Of course, the fault was somewhere else.

« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 11:53:53 pm by schmitt trigger »
 

Offline woody

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #57 on: September 27, 2017, 12:09:51 am »
Please tell me that was a bank and not some tech company ;D

I worked at a bank in another lifetime where we had a problem with an incoming serial datafeed. So a 20k+ HP datascope was inserted in the link to look at the problem. The problem went away. When it was taken out again the problem re-occurred. Management solution: leave the datascope in. After some weeks someone with brains replaced a modem which really solved the problem, to free the scope for some other job.

 
 

Offline xani

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #58 on: September 27, 2017, 12:12:25 am »
It's always something wrong with "the network"

... then it's some firewall on user side

... or they just typed a wrong address

... or forgot to set something up

... or didn't RTFM
 

Offline grumpydoc

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #59 on: September 27, 2017, 12:23:25 am »
A related story, from the place I work.

We were having network errors at certain building locations. A lot of people were involved, because one of those locations was the General Director's office.
Long story short; one of the engineers assisting the troubleshooting found the root cause: tight cable ties were slowing the current flow on the CAT5 cable!
I'm not making this up.

Of course, the fault was somewhere else.
Cat5 (especially if it was 5, not 5e and had gigabit Ethernet running over it) is sensitive to crush and over-tight bends as both disturb the twist and therefore impedance thus causing reflections.

Don't forget that 1000mbps Ethernet involves sending a 250MHz signal down twisted pair, it does get a bit tetchy sometimes.
 

Offline Don Hills

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #60 on: September 27, 2017, 08:21:10 am »
...
P.S. - on a more serious note - you can not use a tool with an unknown sensitivity. It needs to be calibrated - and it is not possible without statistically valid positive results. My guess is that you've tried to find some already and drawn blank... . ;)

Calibration of a DBT is essential. You have to have positive and negative controls.
You could have just said that instead of getting folks riled up.
Maybe you could redeem your reputation by suggesting how this could be done for Bybee testing.

 

Offline Alex Nikitin

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #61 on: September 27, 2017, 08:31:42 am »
...
P.S. - on a more serious note - you can not use a tool with an unknown sensitivity. It needs to be calibrated - and it is not possible without statistically valid positive results. My guess is that you've tried to find some already and drawn blank... . ;)

Calibration of a DBT is essential. You have to have positive and negative controls.
You could have just said that instead of getting folks riled up.
Maybe you could redeem your reputation by suggesting how this could be done for Bybee testing.

Maybe you could provide a link to a paper that describes a DBT (for audio) with statistically valid positive results ?

Cheers

Alex
 

Offline ztatic

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #62 on: September 27, 2017, 09:18:43 am »
NOTE: This message has been deleted by the forum moderator Simon for being against the forum rules and/or at the discretion of the moderator as being in the best interests of the forum community and the nature of the thread.
If you believe this to be in error, please contact the moderator involved.
An optional additional explanation is:
« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 04:35:47 am by Simon »
 

Offline xrunner

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #63 on: September 27, 2017, 09:28:53 am »
Now, I unsubscribed from this thread immediately after my last post, but still got a fucking notice or your fucking post, you asshole. How the fuck to get un-registered from this fucking joke of a forum, with all you fucking pieces of shit here? Is that enough to get me banned? I sure the fuck hope so.

OK now that's really out of line.  >:(
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Offline Corporate666

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #64 on: September 27, 2017, 09:47:33 am »
The reason I was thinking physical proof of ordinariness might help at least some borderline audiophools steer clear is that they don't trust A/B/X, and if they're smart, for good reason. Subtle audio effects are hard to tease out using even the most carefully arranged A/B/X, a problem apparently caused by plain old fatigue from the listening effort.

Well, let's get the Streisand effect started, shall we?

This above sentence is utter bullshit.  The whole point of ABX testing is to determine if the subject can tell a difference.  If a supposed audiophile can't tell the difference, it's because there is no discernible difference.  Chalking the lack of result up to "listening fatigue" is bullshit - that's saying "I was trying so hard to notice the difference that I couldn't notice the difference".  It's circular bullshit logic at it's most laughable.

So audiophools are not smart to distrust ABX testing.  They are idiots for distrusting it. 

And it seems like you have an ulterior motive... there always seem to be people who bring up audiophool bullshit, then give some passing compliments to the industry or make some accommodations for it... like "well, you can't trust ABX testing, though" above.  People who understand logic and science and know audiophoolery is BS wouldn't waste time debunking it anymore than they would waste time "proving" to someone that their faith in some phantom god is equally foolish.  Because those people don't want to know the truth - they want to believe.

Dave doing a whole series of videos isn't going to change these people's minds because their minds are defective from the start.  They lack logic and reasoning power so how can you use logic and reasoning to convince them?  You can't. 

Anyone who loses money due to this audiophoolery stuff is pretty much a victim of their own stupidity.  The only exception I'd make is the crap being sold at Best Buy or other major retailers... those consumers have a legitimate reason to believe the products sold are vetted and not outright scams, and they are also generally unsophisticated consumers.  But I still have little sympathy for them.
It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.
 
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Offline Brumby

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #65 on: September 27, 2017, 09:50:38 am »
@ztatic ... Did I touch a nerve?

You did. You are the other side of the coin from the one who wants to be bamboozled -- you want to pretend that everyone tempted for whatever reason by bamboozlement does not also want to avoid bamboozlement. It's quite annoying, and you go about it with an air od such authority. You're quite an annoyance.

Now, I unsubscribed from this thread immediately after my last post, but still got a fucking notice or your fucking post, you asshole. How the fuck to get un-registered from this fucking joke of a forum, with all you fucking pieces of shit here? Is that enough to get me banned? I sure the fuck hope so.

Wow.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #66 on: September 27, 2017, 05:48:54 pm »
Now, I unsubscribed from this thread immediately after my last post, but still got a fucking notice or your fucking post, you asshole. How the fuck to get un-registered from this fucking joke of a forum, with all you fucking pieces of shit here? Is that enough to get me banned? I sure the fuck hope so.

No, that's nowhere near enough, sorry.  :popcorn:

 

Offline woody

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #67 on: September 27, 2017, 06:30:29 pm »
You can checkout any time you like, but you can never leave  8)
 

Offline polli

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #68 on: September 27, 2017, 06:41:51 pm »
I'm not sure all this hate and ridicule is warranted. Not only you're being way more aggressive than him, but you're also a lot of people ganging up on one. I can understand why he would like to unregister from the forum.

@ztatic: one way to avoid the notifications would be to flag them as spam in your mail client. That usually stops them from getting in your inbox. If it doesn't, maybe see if your client has some sort of blacklist.
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Offline Brumby

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #69 on: September 27, 2017, 07:18:02 pm »
Nobody was 'ganging up' on him.

He was told - repeatedly - why trying to debunk this sort of rubbish is pointless.  He refused to listen to the reasons and took exception to that.

I'm sorry - but to be blunt, he has shown all the immaturity of an 'entitled' teenager who cannot accept criticism nor accept that there are things he doesn't know and/or understand.

Either that, or there is a real problem closer to home that he did not share.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 07:20:02 pm by Brumby »
 
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Offline xani

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #70 on: September 27, 2017, 10:28:32 pm »
Anyone who loses money due to this audiophoolery stuff is pretty much a victim of their own stupidity.  The only exception I'd make is the crap being sold at Best Buy or other major retailers... those consumers have a legitimate reason to believe the products sold are vetted and not outright scams, and they are also generally unsophisticated consumers.  But I still have little sympathy for them.

I wouldn't call it all "stupidity", just ignorance, you need technical knowledge to know why a lot of audiophool bullshit is ridiculous, and audiphool industry goes a long way to make their magical boxes appear highly technical, and to mix some truths into the lie to make it seem more believable.

Of course, when someone says that double blind tests, used in every other science are "not to be trusted" then they are utter idiot, but customer with zero EE knowledge will just go "well my $30 cable is better than $3 (even if it because someone didn't bother to make good connectors on $3 one and it crackled), clearly the $300 one will be even better"
 

Offline Alex Nikitin

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #71 on: September 27, 2017, 10:35:08 pm »
Of course, when someone says that double blind tests, used in every other science are "not to be trusted" then they are utter idiot

And why double blind tests should be trusted in audio? Just because many people say so? It is not science, it is a pure BS, essentially the same as all these snake oil products sellers use. So far not even a single link to a paper describing a DBT (for audio) with statistically valid positive results was posted here. Perhaps you can post one?

Cheers

Alex
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #72 on: September 27, 2017, 10:42:52 pm »
Any real world science argument can not stand ground with the folk that believe they can hear something that others can not even measure.

Anyone here with a scientific mind will probably not even be able to watch this short 5 min video through to the end. And then, it seems people are spending money on this stuff.

LessLoss Cables Models and how they sound.mp4

 
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Offline xrunner

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #73 on: September 27, 2017, 11:05:21 pm »
Anyone here with a scientific mind will probably not even be able to watch this short 5 min video through to the end. And then, it seems people are spending money on this stuff.

Yea I've seen his "reviews". Utterly delusional.

I wouldn't call it all "stupidity", just ignorance, you need technical knowledge to know why a lot of audiophool bullshit is ridiculous, and audiphool industry goes a long way to make their magical boxes appear highly technical, and to mix some truths into the lie to make it seem more believable.er"

I know lots of people who are smart but don't understand electricity or electronics. That's totally OK. When they come over here and see my ham shack and test equipment they are totally lost. Again we all have our areas of expertise, and they probably know things that I don't have a clue about ...

But we are here to talk about a very technical thing which demands expertise and measurements. If a non-technical audio geek goes to these websites and "studies" the claims and reads paragraph after paragraph of bamboozlement, they will then begin to think they "understand" why these items are better, such reading the descriptions of products here -

Less Loss

So they end up with a false sense of knowledge. Their technical knowledge - or what they think of as knowledge - isn't knowledge at all. It's basically, well, like religion. It's simply indoctrination - inculcation - and had no actual basis in real physics. If you hang out with true believers and study their texts for long enough, get reinforecement from your peers, you will believe. It's a belief but has no justification based in reality, But, they believe and so the market exists ...
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Bybee's Lament
« Reply #74 on: September 27, 2017, 11:15:30 pm »
So far not even a single link to a paper describing a DBT (for audio) with statistically valid positive results was posted here.

What you're saying is that all speakers/amps sound exactly the same. Nobody can hear any difference at all in any test.

Perhaps you can post one?

And then you act all smug because nobody goes and researches that for you??  :palm:
 


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