Author Topic: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide  (Read 720502 times)

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Offline Polossatik

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Background:

The hack itself is simply updating the serial number and the model number but does not work anymore on Rigols with firmwares higher than 02.02.SP2, this guide has the files needed to downgrade to 02.02.SP2 , change the serial number and the model number using USB and then to upgrade again.

The downgrade is currently only possible for scopes who come with an firmware up to 00.02.05.02.00
See below , in step 2) is shown how to check your firmware version


Linux users should be able to use Python with USB, .
or  echo to the USB mount


WARNING:
While this hack was successfully done by a lot of people there is always something that can go wrong.
It IS possible to brick your Rigol when downgrading / upgrading firmware .
So do this at you own risk.


Other scopes who are know to be hackable: the Tekway DST1102B

Steps to do:

1) Take the DS1052E out of the box  ;D

Check if everything works as mentioned in chapter 2 of the Service Guide DS1000E.pdf
Yes, reading a manual before everything fails is not a bad idea sometimes...

2) find out your CURRENT firmware version.

To find you hardware revision chose on your scope the "utilities" button, , the lower button until 3/3, choose "system info". This will give the current firmware (not the full version string) and some other info.

example:




Once in this screen press button "ch1" twice, then "ch2" twice then "math" once.
The hardware version will also appear next to "Hardversion". Note if this is 57 (or lower) or 58 .

Be aware !!!!!!! Do NOT press any key except RUN/STOP to exit while in this mode or you can mess up your scope.
Again, do NOT press any key except RUN/STOP to exit while in this mode.


example:


 Do NOT press any key except RUN/STOP to exit while in this mode or you can mess up your scope.

some examples of the firmware versions you might see:

00.02.02.02.00 , shown as 00.02.02 SP2 in the previous screen
00.02.04.00.01 and 00.02.04.00.03 , both shown as 00.02.04 in the previous screen
00.02.04.01.02 , shown as 00.02.04 SP1 in the previous screen
00.02.05.00.00 , shown as 00.02.05 in the previous screen
00.02.05.01.00 and 00.02.05.01.02, both shown as 00.02.05 SP1 in the previous screen


3)a) Get the needed files and save this in a temp folder ( C:\temp ):

* Download a tool like hashcalc to generate MD5 sums of files.

* visa462runtime.exe : the visa462runtime.exe is available here (54Mb) , this if for Windows 2000 up to Windows 7, see the readme.html on that website.

* Ultrascope for DS1000E Series.exe : . Make sure you use the "(VISA version)" one if your scope is older and you had this already installed.
When in doubt deinstall and re-install .
I uploaded the one I used to rapidshare here (12Mb).
This is the version that came on the cdrom with my scope which says version "00.01.07" in the help - about box.
There is also one on Rigol's website

* DS1052_to_DS1102.zip : the DS1052_to_DS1102.zip  (11Mb) is available here on Rapidshare or Fileserve

* download rigupgr.zip from shafri's post here.

2)b) Install everything you need on your windows pc.

Do NOT connect the Scope yet

* Install a tool like hashcalc to generate MD5 sums of files

* Run visa462runtime.exe to install the usb driver/ VISA runtime.

* Run Ultrascope for DS1000E Series.exe to install Ultrascope. (This will also install some dll files who are needed for step 5 )

* unzip the DS1052_to_DS1102.zip in c:\temp

* unzip rigupgr.zip in c:\temp

I suggest to use 7zip it's free and works great.

   After the unzip you should have now these directory's in c:\temp:




You need to reboot your pc now
Do NOT connect the Scope yet


3) Downgrade or upgrade to 00.02.02 SP2 if needed.

Do NOT connect the Scope yet


3)a) your firmware is 00.02.02 SP2 (00.02.02.02.00 ).



go to point 4


3)b) your firmware is LOWER than 00.02.02 SP2 (00.02.02.02.00 ).


If your current firmware is LOWER you need to upgrade to 00.02.02 SP2 to be able to use the USB connection method (point 4),
you should be able to use the "hack" itself without upgrading ( using a RS232 cable) but the USB connection method ( using "VISA" drivers )  will not work .

Easy steps to update the firmware to 00.02.02 SP2:

* empty an usb stick
* check if your usb stick works on the Rigol by plugging it in and saving some screenshots or so - see "to store and recall" in the user manual.
* unplug it again from the scope and plug it in your computer, check files if needed
* delete all files and folders from the usb stick
* copy the DS1000EUpdate.RGL from the "C:\temp\DS1052_to_DS1102\02.02.SP2_original" directory to the empty USB stick, there should be no folder and only only the RGL file on the usb stick
* "eject" the USB stick in Windows Explorer to make sure windows saved everything, plug it in again.

   Double check your USB stick is working on the Rigol and the file is saved properly, seen at least one person bricked his scope due a bad downgrade of the firmware discussion here
   Check the MD5 sum of the DS1000EUpdate.RGL file on your usb stick.
   the MD5 sum for this file should be 272086b2037231c62446617436544a77


* unplug again
* plug the USB stick in the rigol and follow the Rigol menu "upgrade" instructions

   If the Rigol does not detect the firmware use another USB stick or double check the file used.

* switch off and on the rigol when asked to do so

Check your firmware version of the DS1052E (Utilities button, lower button until 3/3, choose system info) it should list 00.02.02 SP2 .

goto point 4)


3)c) your firmware is HIGHER than 00.02.02 SP2 ((00.02.02.02.00 ) but LOWER than 00.02.05 ( 00.02.05.00.00 )

example:




you need to use a "patched" 00.02.02 SP2 firmware file in the "02.02.SP2_patched_to_02.04.02" directory

Easy steps to downgrade the firmware to 00.02.02 SP2 using the patched file:

* empty an usb stick
* check if your usb stick works on the rigol by plugging it in and saving some screenshots or so - see "to store and recall" in the user manual.
* unplug it again from the scope and plug it in your computer, check files if needed
* delete all files and folders from the usb stick
* copy the DS1000EUpdate.RGL from the "C:\temp\DS1052_to_DS1102\02.02.SP2_patched_to_02.04.02" directory to the empty USB stick, there should be no folder and only only the RGL file on the usb stick
* "eject" the USB stick in Windows Explorer to make sure windows saved everything, plug it in again.

   Double check your USB stick is working on the Rigol and the file is saved properly, seen at least one person bricked his scope due a bad downgrade of the firmware discussion here
   check the MD5 sum of the DS1000EUpdate.RGL file on your usb stick.
   the MD5 sum for this file should be 8cd4e61ce6128b55ab18fc83fa756e34


* unplug again
* plug the USB stick in the rigol and follow the Rigol menu "upgrade" instructions

   If the Rigol does not detect the firmware use another USB stick or double check the file used.

* switch off and on the rigol when asked to do so.

Check your firmware version of the DS1052E (Utilities button, lower button until 3/3, choose system info) it should list 00.02.02 SP2 .

(this is not a typo - the file was changed to "appear" to be a higher FW version when checked by the rigol's current firmware, but after the flash it does report as 00.02.02 SP2 - the actual version of the firmware itself is NOT changed since the actual firmware is take from a different part of the file, which is untouched )

goto point 4)


3)c) your firmware is 00.02.05 ( 00.02.05.00.00 ) or 00.02.05 SP1 (00.02.05.01.00)  

example:




you need to use a "patched" 00.02.02 SP2 firmware file in the "02.02.SP2_patched_to_02.05.01.02" directory

Easy steps to downgrade the firmware to 00.02.02 SP2 using the patched file:

* empty an usb stick
* check if your usb stick works on the rigol by plugging it in and saving some screenshots or so - see "to store and recall" in the user manual.
* unplug it again from the scope and plug it in your computer, check files if needed
* delete all files and folders from the usb stick
* copy the DS1000EUpdate.RGL from the "C:\temp\DS1052_to_DS1102\02.02.SP2_patched_to_02.05.01.02" directory to the empty USB stick, there should be no folder and only only the RGL file on the usb stick
* "eject" the USB stick in Windows Explorer to make sure windows saved everything, plug it in again.

   Double check your USB stick is working on the Rigol and the file is saved properly, seen at least one person bricked his scope due a bad downgrade of the firmware discussion here
   check the MD5 sum of the DS1000EUpdate.RGL file on your usb stick.
   the MD5 sum for this file should be 7cc0aac2e39f6a677dd0296344e33954


* unplug again
* plug the USB stick in the rigol and follow the Rigol menu "upgrade" instructions

   If the Rigol does not detect the firmware use another USB stick or double check the file used.

* switch off and on the rigol when asked to do so.

Check your firmware version of the DS1052E (Utilities button, lower button until 3/3, choose system info) it should list 00.02.02 SP2 .

(this is not a typo - the file was changed to "appear" to be a higher FW version when checked by the rigol's current firmware, but after the flash it does report as 00.02.02 SP2 - the actual version of the firmware itself is NOT changed since the actual firmware is take from a different part of the file, which is untouched )

goto point 4)


3)d) your firmware is 00.02.05 SP1 ( 00.02.05.01.02 ) or higher

andrewK just provided a firmware see this post , which should work for 00.02.05.01.02 scopes.
The steps should be just the same as point 3c)
After the scope is on 02.02 SP1goto point 4)

For 00.02.05.02.00 scopes see this post

4) connect the scope to your PC and test the USB connection

the ultrascope step is not needed as such for the "hack" it's simply to see if your usb connection works fine.

Start the DS1052E and connect the scope with an USB cable to your PC, a popup should ask you install drivers, choose "don't search for updated drivers" and let windows install the drivers.
If Windows mentions that the "installed hardware does not function properly" then, disconnect the scope, reboot, connect the scope again.

Start ultrascope, click on the little icon "connect" icon in the upper left corner (right from the floppy) to connect to the scope, in the left panel double click on "virtual console", click on "Run" under the "control" and play around to see if it works.



If it does then fine, exit the "virtual console" and then ultrascope and go to step 5.
It might be also a good idea to stop and start the scope again - mine sometimes "hangs" when exiting ultrascope.


If it does not work then there is a problem with the usb drivers or maybe you installed an old Ultrascope, in any case do not go further until Ultrascope works on this PC.



5) Change the DS1052E to DS1102E

yes, we are finally there :)

5a) automatically

Forum user shafri has provided a windows "rigupgr.exe" program that basically does the steps in point 5b) automatically .

The conditions are still the same, this will ONLY work on 00.02.02 SP2 scopes.

* Connect the rigol with the usb cable to your pc if not yet done

a) start rigupgr.exe from c:\temp\rigupgr (or where you extracted rigupgr.zip)
b) Click "Check Rigol Model & Serial" button, it will show you the *IDN? result and your FW version. (it will automatically fill the new model and serial number for upgrade process)
c) Click "Upgrade Rigol" button to start the upgrade. Wait until it ask you to restart your rigol and click OK.
Dont do anything in between, this might take a while.



restart the scope and goto point 6)

5b) Manually

* Connect the rigol with the usb cable to your pc if not yet done

* Start demoIDN.exe from the "C:\temp\DS1052_to_DS1102\usbtool" folder

* select the scope in the first "Visa" drop down list (there should only be one line), then select "*IDN?" in the bottom drop down list and hit "send and read"

It will give:

Code: [Select]
Rigol Technologies,DS1052E,DS1ED888888888,00.02.02.02.00
Instead of  888888888 you will see your serial number, copy paste the serial number into notepad, you need it later.



The Scope MUST have 00.02.02.02.00 as firmware to do the hack.

* In notepad prepare 2 lines:

Code: [Select]
:INFO:MODEL DS1102E
:INFO:SERIAL DS1EB888888888

where 888888888 is your serial number, note the difference between the original DS1ED and the new DS1EB.

* Next in the bottom select box of demoIDN.exe copy paste:

Code: [Select]
:INFO:MODEL DS1102E


and click on the send and read button - no output is given, that's normal

* After that , in the bottom select box of demoIDN.exe copy paste:

Code: [Select]
:INFO:SERIAL DS1EB888888888
where 888888888 is your serial number you prepared before, make sure you use DS1EB not DS1ED



and click on the send and read button - no output is given, that's normal

Now exit demoIDN.exe and switch off the rigol and then switch it on again.

Start demoIDN.exe again, select the scope in the first drop down list, select *IDN? in the bottom and hit send and read



it will give

Code: [Select]
Rigol Technologies,DS1102E,DS1EB888888888,00.02.02.02.00
where 888888888 is your serial number

and your DS1052E scope is now a DS1102E....

got step 6


6) Update your firmware after the change.

Get your  hardware version, that is the "Hardversion" found in step 2 of the guide.

HardWare version "57" (or lower) scopes MAY stay on 00.02.02.02.00 but there no reason why you should NOT go to 00.02.04.01.02 (00.02.04 SP1)

HardWare version "58" scopes NEED to go to 00.02.04.01.02 (00.02.04 SP1)  other wise there are calibration issues

HardWare version "59" scopes are reported to exist , not clear yet what Firmware version the NEED, suggest to try with 00.02.04 SP1 first and report  from page 33 onwards

There seams currently no reason to go to 00.02.05.01.00 for HardWare version "58" (or lower) scopes , some people even reported issues with 00.02.05.01.00 firwmare that do not occur in 00.02.04 SP1, like this one


The 00.02.04.01.02 (00.02.04 SP1) firmware can be found in  the "C:\temp\DS1052_to_DS1102\02.04 SP1_original" directory.
 
Again, make sure your is file correct on the USB stick, you can use a tool like hashcalc to check the MD5 sum of the DS1000EUpdate.RGL 00.02.04.01.02 (00.02.04 SP1) update file on your usb stick.
The MD5 sum for this 00.02.04.01.02 (00.02.04 SP1)  DS1000EUpdate.RGL file should be bcf73565352391935f3a9651d30776ee





If you really want you can go to 00.02.05.01.00 ( 02.05 SP1 )

The 00.02.05.01.00 ( 02.05 SP1 ) firmware can be found in the "C:\temp\DS1052_to_DS1102\02.05.01.00_original" directory .
The MD5 sum for this 00.02.05.01.00 ( 02.05 SP1 ) DS1000EUpdate.RGL file should be 839651c74a948cea1d8cccc21af9fc8a



7) After you are on your final firmware , let the scope run for 30 minutes to warm up and perform a self calibration as the very last step.

And do not forget to delete the *.RGL file of the usb stick after doing an update of the firmware :)

If you want even more MHz , help out in the  DS1052E Up to 150Mhz Thread :)

OR you want less noisy fan:  Rigol 1052e Fan Replacement
enjoy

Footnotes:

* To change an DS1052D (the model with Logic Analyser) into an 1102D the steps should be just the same, the serial number however should be changed from DS1ECxxxxxx (1052D model) to DS1EAxxxxxx (1102D model) See here.
* The pfd's in attached rigolpdf.zip are the DS1000E_programming guide.pdf from dec 2009, User’s Guide DS1000E.pdf from July 2009 and Service Guide DS1000E.pdf from may 2009.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2011, 03:23:50 AM by Polossatik »
Real Circuit design time in minutes= (2 + Nscopes) Testim + (40 +120 Kbrewski) Nfriends

Testim = estimated time in minutes Nscopes= number of oscilloscopes present Kbrewski = linear approx of the nonlinear beer effect Nfriends = number of circuit design friends present
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2010, 11:09:26 PM »
Excellent guide, thanks for the effort in sharing.

Dave.
 

Offline redek

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2010, 10:12:33 AM »
Thanks for the guide. I'm now less confused about going through the usb port.
 

Offline EstebanM

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2010, 06:58:29 AM »
Thank`s .... ;)
 

Offline saturation

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2010, 09:49:38 PM »
Thank you, great work!
Best Wishes,

 Saturation
 

Offline Polossatik

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2010, 03:51:32 AM »
Some people reported that the Ultrascope from the rigol website did not work (I did not tested this) ,
uploaded the Ultrascope for DS1000E Series.exe I used to rapidshare and adapted the guide.
Real Circuit design time in minutes= (2 + Nscopes) Testim + (40 +120 Kbrewski) Nfriends

Testim = estimated time in minutes Nscopes= number of oscilloscopes present Kbrewski = linear approx of the nonlinear beer effect Nfriends = number of circuit design friends present
 

avrfreaks

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2010, 04:03:04 PM »
Works ok on Windows 7 and Windows Vista x86, however x64 bit environment does not work well. It sometimes times out when programming,
I did use visa460runtime.exe for both tests.

Thanks....
« Last Edit: May 26, 2010, 11:08:45 AM by avrfreaks »
 

Offline Polossatik

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2010, 09:37:34 AM »
which usb driver did you use?
"visa441runtime" USB-driver or the newer visa460runtime.exe ?
Real Circuit design time in minutes= (2 + Nscopes) Testim + (40 +120 Kbrewski) Nfriends

Testim = estimated time in minutes Nscopes= number of oscilloscopes present Kbrewski = linear approx of the nonlinear beer effect Nfriends = number of circuit design friends present
 

Offline johnr

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2010, 09:14:37 PM »
I just received my 00.02.04 based DS1052E.  Anyone follow this procedure on a recent unit and test to see if it is actually running at 100 Mhz?  In other words, verify that besides firmware change in recent unuts there is no corresponding hardware change?
 

Offline Polossatik

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2010, 11:05:01 PM »
If you mean like compare the rise time like Dave did, not that I'm aware of.
You need a generator to do that ( see here ) that not everybody has laying around.
But feel free :)
Real Circuit design time in minutes= (2 + Nscopes) Testim + (40 +120 Kbrewski) Nfriends

Testim = estimated time in minutes Nscopes= number of oscilloscopes present Kbrewski = linear approx of the nonlinear beer effect Nfriends = number of circuit design friends present
 

Offline ninja

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2010, 04:25:42 AM »
Thanks for this hack! it's awesome!
It worked on win7 i used visa460runtime
 

Offline squeezee

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2010, 01:31:19 PM »
Thanks for the guide, just successfully upgraded my rigol over USB with Windows 7 x64.

I used the NIVISA 4.60 runtime downloaded from their website.

Also instead of copying the mfco42d.dll into your system directory, you just need to have it in the same folder as demoIDN.exe for it to work.
 

Offline Polossatik

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2010, 07:05:09 PM »
thank you for the feedback, I have adapted the guide a bit.
Real Circuit design time in minutes= (2 + Nscopes) Testim + (40 +120 Kbrewski) Nfriends

Testim = estimated time in minutes Nscopes= number of oscilloscopes present Kbrewski = linear approx of the nonlinear beer effect Nfriends = number of circuit design friends present
 

Offline ednspace

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2010, 11:56:09 PM »
Thanks for the great Guide!!!
I did it, nervous all the while but couldn't live with myself if I didn't try,
of course if it had failed, I couldn't have lived with myself either.
I had access to a generator and another real bonified 1102E 100mHz scope so I took some photos.
Generator is an Agilent 33250A 80mHz



Thanks again for everybodys help on this
 

Offline Polossatik

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2010, 12:49:05 AM »
Welcome (and stick around... ;) )

thankx for those pictures, it clearly shows that the hack improves the scope, even for "lower" frequency's...
Maybe I'm talking silly here, but does these pictures not indicate your modded 1052 is actually a tiny little bit better than the "real" 1102?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 12:54:20 AM by polossatik »
Real Circuit design time in minutes= (2 + Nscopes) Testim + (40 +120 Kbrewski) Nfriends

Testim = estimated time in minutes Nscopes= number of oscilloscopes present Kbrewski = linear approx of the nonlinear beer effect Nfriends = number of circuit design friends present
 

Offline ednspace

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2010, 02:36:36 AM »
Welcome (and stick around... ;) )

thankx for those pictures, it clearly shows that the hack improves the scope, even for "lower" frequency's...
Maybe I'm talking silly here, but does these pictures not indicate your modded 1052 is actually a tiny little bit better than the "real" 1102?

Could just be that the reading was moving around a bit, I pushed run stop, so I may have skued the data slightly in favor of the modded scope. ;)  For all practical purposes I think they are about the same.

I just went and measured the Agilent Signal Generator against a TDS 3052B TEK 500 mHz scope and it was showing close to the same, 4.6 ns Rise, 4.4 ns fall.  So I dug up an old HP8082A Pulse Generator.  Square wave at 20 mHZ. 

Wow what a difference, 1.04 ns Rise, 990 ps Fall on the 500 mHz scope. (Note to self, how do they do that, anyway?)

On the modded Rigol 3.04 ns rise, 3.20 ns fall.  So sweet! 

As I increased the frequency up to around 40 mHz the Rigol hung in there but only ever showed 3.00 ns Rise and 3.00 ns Fall, no waiver.  Seems to be the top end.  Still not completly sure how to convert this to bandwidth. 

Is it as simple as 0.35/RiseTime = Bandwidth?

I work at a University in case you are wondering where I am getting access to all the toys.
I did read the rise time thread, so all measurments were straight 50 ohm cable the niceset I could find and 50 ohm terminated at the scope.
 

Offline Polossatik

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2010, 04:03:36 AM »
So I dug up an old HP8082A Pulse Generator.  Square wave at 20 mHZ.  

Wow what a difference, 1.04 ns Rise, 990 ps Fall on the 500 mHz scope. (Note to self, how do they do that, anyway?)

This might give some insight :)
https://gamma.triumf.ca/tigress/Vendors/HP/HP%208082A%20Operating%20and%20Service%20Manual.pdf/at_download/file
« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 04:05:27 AM by polossatik »
Real Circuit design time in minutes= (2 + Nscopes) Testim + (40 +120 Kbrewski) Nfriends

Testim = estimated time in minutes Nscopes= number of oscilloscopes present Kbrewski = linear approx of the nonlinear beer effect Nfriends = number of circuit design friends present
 

alm

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2010, 04:19:57 AM »
thankx for those pictures, it clearly shows that the hack improves the scope, even for "lower" frequency's...
How is this a lower frequency? You need at least 70MHz bandwidth to produce a 5ns rising/falling edge, so that's well beyond the specified bandwidth of the DS1052E.

Wow what a difference, 1.04 ns Rise, 990 ps Fall on the 500 mHz scope. (Note to self, how do they do that, anyway?)
Just really fast RF transistors I think. If it's old, you can probably find a service manual with full schematics on the Agilent website.

Is it as simple as 0.35/RiseTime = Bandwidth?
If the filter has a one-pole guassian role-off, then yes. Since it oversamples at least 10 times, I don't think they've gone through the trouble of designing a filter with a sharper roll-off, but I'm not sure if it's specified to be exactly guassian either. I would expect it to be pretty close.

If you want to be sure, I'm sure you can find a leveled signal generator from 100kHz to 150MHz or so at that university. The point at which the displayed amplitude is just 1/sqrt(2) of the real amplitude is the upper bandwidth limit, so you set the generator to some low frequency that's comfortably within the bandwidth (eg. 100kHz), note the amplitude, and without changing the level, adjust the frequency upwards until you reach the -3dB point. If you plot amplitude against frequency, you get the scope's frequency response. I think the flatness specs for the Agilent 33250A are pretty good, you might be able to use that up to 80MHz, to verify that you have at least that much bandwidth. If your signal source isn't leveled, you could calibrate it by noting the amplitude at each frequency with a higher bandwidth scope (eg. that TDS3052) or power meter.
 

Offline Polossatik

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2010, 04:32:41 AM »
thankx for those pictures, it clearly shows that the hack improves the scope, even for "lower" frequency's...
How is this a lower frequency? You need at least 70MHz bandwidth to produce a 5ns rising/falling edge, so that's well beyond the specified bandwidth of the DS1052E.

I'm talking about the frequency of the input signal, not the bandwidth ...  something that is often confused by people who are new to this stuff.
Real Circuit design time in minutes= (2 + Nscopes) Testim + (40 +120 Kbrewski) Nfriends

Testim = estimated time in minutes Nscopes= number of oscilloscopes present Kbrewski = linear approx of the nonlinear beer effect Nfriends = number of circuit design friends present
 

Offline ednspace

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2010, 05:24:48 AM »
So I dug up an old HP8082A Pulse Generator.  Square wave at 20 mHZ.  

Wow what a difference, 1.04 ns Rise, 990 ps Fall on the 500 mHz scope. (Note to self, how do they do that, anyway?)

This might give some insight :)
https://gamma.triumf.ca/tigress/Vendors/HP/HP%208082A%20Operating%20and%20Service%20Manual.pdf/at_download/file


Thanks for that, its a gem, may take a bit decipher though.  In the mean time I found these interesting circuits.
http://www.i9t.net/fast-pulse/fast-pulse.html
http://www.holmea.demon.co.uk/Avalanche/Avalanche.htm

Both referencing the original article Jim Williams, LT App Note 47
 

alm

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2010, 09:34:50 PM »
[I'm talking about the frequency of the input signal, not the bandwidth ...  something that is often confused by people who are new to this stuff.
This is why the rule-of-thumb used to be that your scope bandwidth should be about 5x your signals frequency to get a reasonable representation. And that was in the time of analog scopes when you just wanted a picture, before the time of measurements and analyzing stored waveforms point for point. To get accurate measurements or zoom in you need even more bandwidth. Agilent has a nice appnote with a table with the ratio of scope rise time to signal rise time and measurement error.
 

Offline ednspace

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2010, 05:16:49 AM »
If you want to be sure, I'm sure you can find a leveled signal generator from 100kHz to 150MHz or so at that university. The point at which the displayed amplitude is just 1/sqrt(2) of the real amplitude is the upper bandwidth limit, so you set the generator to some low frequency that's comfortably within the bandwidth (eg. 100kHz), note the amplitude, and without changing the level, adjust the frequency upwards until you reach the -3dB point. If you plot amplitude against frequency, you get the scope's frequency response. I think the flatness specs for the Agilent 33250A are pretty good, you might be able to use that up to 80MHz, to verify that you have at least that much bandwidth. If your signal source isn't leveled, you could calibrate it by noting the amplitude at each frequency with a higher bandwidth scope (eg. that TDS3052) or power meter.

Thanks for the bandwidth measuring suggestion, here is what I came up with.

Started with a sine wave 1V peak to peak at 100kHz then raised the frequency until amplitude rolled off to .707 volts.
Since I had access to some other scopes I hooked them up and measured as well.
In all instances the End point is where the frequency causes the voltage to cross the .707 volt line.
The Rigols are at the bottom.

Rhode & Schwarz 9kHz-2.089GHz RF Generator
Test Signal 1 volt Peak to Peak sine wave

TEK TDS744A 500MHz 2GS/S
Start:100kHz    End:550MHz

TEK TDS2002 60MHz 1GS/S
Start:100kHz    End:71MHz

TEK TDS420A 200MHz 100MS/S
Start:100kHz    End:281MHz
Notes:This could be equivalent time sampling, not sure. Bandwidth seems large.

TEK TDS3052B 500MHZ 5GS/S
Start:100kHz    End:475MHz
Notes: Driver error?  This scope is kind of tricky for me. Used 16X average.

Rigol DS1102E 100MHz 1GS/S
Start:100kHz    End:117MHz
Notes:Used 16X average. Real Time.  Equivalent seems to extend bandwidth.  I still have to research the difference between the two.

Rigol DS1052E 50MHz 1GS/S (This is the modded scope)
Start:100kHz    End:123MHz
Notes:Used 16X average. Real Time.  Equivalent seems to extend bandwidth.
Yes really slightly better then the real DS1102E I went back and forth several times.

All tests done with the generator warmed up, highest quality 50ohm cable I could find, terminated at the scope.  See above lash up photo.
Scopes were a cold start, auto set, then adjusted to give the largest amplitude display possible.  In some cases I turned on averaging.  Keep in mind that I did this all pretty quickly and am a novice at driving some of these scopes, treat everything as ballpark just to get an idea of whats going on.
enjoy_
ED
 

Offline idris

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  • Posts: 4
Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2010, 09:40:34 PM »
Just confirming this technique worked for me on Windows 7 64-bit. I used the NIVISA 4.60 runtime linked by the OP without issue.

Note that my scope shipped with the 2.02 SP2 firmware.

Thanks for your efforts! Much appreciated.
 

Offline saturation

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Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2010, 11:35:21 PM »
Most excellent work in confirming the freq. response of the 1052E and making comparisons.

To finalize the 1052E hack:

Has it passed its internal Function Check?

Has it passed its self calibration?


Although I've been following the mod thread with relish, I haven't' seen anyone test the scope's other capabilities beyond frequency response and rise time, as Mark0 discusses here.  Sounds like you have the gear and the baseline equipment to make a detailed analysis:

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=3653;topic=30.135;num_replies=651;sesc=5b002620404842d3df2a0666d8a7db0a







If you want to be sure, I'm sure you can find a leveled signal generator from 100kHz to 150MHz or so at that university. The point at which the displayed amplitude is just 1/sqrt(2) of the real amplitude is the upper bandwidth limit, so you set the generator to some low frequency that's comfortably within the bandwidth (eg. 100kHz), note the amplitude, and without changing the level, adjust the frequency upwards until you reach the -3dB point. If you plot amplitude against frequency, you get the scope's frequency response. I think the flatness specs for the Agilent 33250A are pretty good, you might be able to use that up to 80MHz, to verify that you have at least that much bandwidth. If your signal source isn't leveled, you could calibrate it by noting the amplitude at each frequency with a higher bandwidth scope (eg. that TDS3052) or power meter.

Thanks for the bandwidth measuring suggestion, here is what I came up with.

Started with a sine wave 1V peak to peak at 100kHz then raised the frequency until amplitude rolled off to .707 volts.
Since I had access to some other scopes I hooked them up and measured as well.
In all instances the End point is where the frequency causes the voltage to cross the .707 volt line.
The Rigols are at the bottom.

Rhode & Schwarz 9kHz-2.089GHz RF Generator
Test Signal 1 volt Peak to Peak sine wave

TEK TDS744A 500MHz 2GS/S
Start:100kHz    End:550MHz

TEK TDS2002 60MHz 1GS/S
Start:100kHz    End:71MHz

TEK TDS420A 200MHz 100MS/S
Start:100kHz    End:281MHz
Notes:This could be equivalent time sampling, not sure. Bandwidth seems large.

TEK TDS3052B 500MHZ 5GS/S
Start:100kHz    End:475MHz
Notes: Driver error?  This scope is kind of tricky for me. Used 16X average.

Rigol DS1102E 100MHz 1GS/S
Start:100kHz    End:117MHz
Notes:Used 16X average. Real Time.  Equivalent seems to extend bandwidth.  I still have to research the difference between the two.

Rigol DS1052E 50MHz 1GS/S (This is the modded scope)
Start:100kHz    End:123MHz
Notes:Used 16X average. Real Time.  Equivalent seems to extend bandwidth.
Yes really slightly better then the real DS1102E I went back and forth several times.

All tests done with the generator warmed up, highest quality 50ohm cable I could find, terminated at the scope.  See above lash up photo.
Scopes were a cold start, auto set, then adjusted to give the largest amplitude display possible.  In some cases I turned on averaging.  Keep in mind that I did this all pretty quickly and am a novice at driving some of these scopes, treat everything as ballpark just to get an idea of whats going on.
enjoy_
ED
Best Wishes,

 Saturation
 

Offline ednspace

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  • Posts: 7
Re: changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2010, 06:17:28 AM »
Most excellent work in confirming the freq. response of the 1052E and making comparisons.

To finalize the 1052E hack:

Has it passed its internal Function Check?

Has it passed its self calibration?


Although I've been following the mod thread with relish, I haven't' seen anyone test the scope's other capabilities beyond frequency response and rise time, as Mark0 discusses here.  Sounds like you have the gear and the baseline equipment to make a detailed analysis:



If I am able I would be happy to run some more tests and give a report back to the group.  Any suggestions for tests to attempt.  I am pretty satisfied with what I have seen so far.  I went through self calibration after the mod, no problems.  Which internal function tests are you refering to?  Frequency and voltage were matching the other scopes, and the function generator when doing the earlier testing.

ED
 


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