EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
EEVblog => EEVblog Specific => Topic started by: EEVblog on March 31, 2015, 09:26:03 am
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Dave talks about Tektronix's new unreleased AGO3000 Gravity Compensated Oscilloscope with a high precision TCXO timebase with 2G tip-over gravity compensation.
Datasheet: http://info.tek.com/rs/tektronix/images/AGO3000_Gravity-Compensated-Oscilloscope_DataSheet.pdf (http://info.tek.com/rs/tektronix/images/AGO3000_Gravity-Compensated-Oscilloscope_DataSheet.pdf)
Preliminary product launch page: http://info.tek.com/ago3000-scope.html (http://info.tek.com/ago3000-scope.html)
eevBLAB #8 - New Tektronix AGO3000 Oscilloscope (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JobJswHcnLE#ws)
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I saw no glitches in this video. Fingers crossed, it is fixed.
The video is using the Sony Gravity Compensation post-processing filter to cater for northern hemisphere viewers.
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What is the Agilent counter you use in the video?
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What is the Agilent counter you use in the video?
53131A
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I have a ten-digit counter in my workshop that has a TXCO, I also have a 10 MHz source that is locked to the 77,5 KHz DCF77 signal. Yes, I have seen variations of +/- 0.5 mHz depending on the orientation of the TXCO but I have also seen variations due to the following:
Ambient temperature
Humidity levels
Mains supply
Time of day
Vibration
Internal equipment fans
Magnetic and RF fields from other equipment
I wonder how the engineers in Tektronix compensate for these other variations, some of which cause 10x as much effect as gravity?
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I got my post deleted without any explanation. Nice!
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I got my post deleted without any explanation. Nice!
Did you really need an explanation, given its content?
Subtlety is a good thing.
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Did you really need an explanation, given its content?
Actually, yes. "Given its content" here are a few non exhaustive reasons:
- Could be wrong
- #2 not affected
- Inevitable
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The next stage is quite obvious: Relativistic effects compensated oscilloscope - you choose your frame of reference, enter your speed, the speed of the measured system, any additional gravitational fields in place and you're in!
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Dave mentioned:
The only difference between the AGO and the MDO is the gravity compensation.
He forgot to mention a maybe huge difference on the price as well :-BROKE
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Brilliant :-+ :-+ :-+
Cutting-edge innovation like this is just what Tek needs to recover its market share. I just wish they had added POM compensation as well - a lot of my gear seems to suffer from that dependency.
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It will be interesting to see how much range of Tektronix instruments get this upgrade in the future. 4000 series is likely the next candidate.
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How many years will you be able keep doing this? lol
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If you really go into the fundamentals, it's possible to make incredibly well-compensated (better than 0.1ppb) MEMS oscillator ICs. I am not sure if they are produced at all outside of research purposes, but I could see devices like that (which have an oscillator which is incredibly closely coupled to a thermal sensing element, gravitational sensing element, feedback loop, etc. etc. all the compensation guts on one IC) eventually being produced for this kind of market. If the frequency stability craze continues a company like Rigol might very well have enough production volume to warrant something custom (but fundamentally cheap) like that.
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It's a bit out of my price league, but do you have to send them the GPS co-ordinates of where it will be used so that they can fine-tune for local gravity variations.
Will this affect the resale value as, obviously, if you move it the compensation will be out!
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It's a bit out of my price league, but do you have to send them the GPS co-ordinates of where it will be used so that they can fine-tune for local gravity variations.
Will this affect the resale value as, obviously, if you move it the compensation will be out!
Varying gravity field is taken into account, of course, so it won't affect compensation. Such instruments could be sold and used in any part of the world (with respect to ITAR regulations, etc.) - TekTronix knows what they are doing.
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The next stage is quite obvious: Relativistic effects compensated oscilloscope - you choose your frame of reference, enter your speed, the speed of the measured system, any additional gravitational fields in place and you're in!
:-DD
They will call it the Einstein Scopes 8)
Maybe they should work first on their voltage resolution ;D
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Sorry Dave, this one is not for you. It works for the Northern Hemisphere only. Using this baby on the Southern Hemisphere will only result in a double error. Maybe next year Tek will issue a probe that compensates?
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I got my post deleted without any explanation. Nice!
Gee, I wonder why.... :-//
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Some of the top analogue scopes had, in addition to trace rotation adjustment, trace gravitation adjustments. Glad to see DSOs are finally catching up ;)
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If only this scope decoded Morse Code, it would be perfect.
Hams are always left out.
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Ok, I totally understand the real intention of this video.
However, about the orientation of that frequency generator... is it a true thing? Or is it... well... a "cunning" subterfuge?
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Of course there will be a real price hike for the AGO upgrade, given that they have to fly to within .1 parsec of a black hole event horizon to calibrate the thing over a useful range of gravity values.
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Ok, I totally understand the real intention of this video.
What do you mean? The datasheet is on the tek.com website...
http://info.tek.com/rs/tektronix/images/AGO3000_Gravity-Compensated-Oscilloscope_DataSheet.pdf (http://info.tek.com/rs/tektronix/images/AGO3000_Gravity-Compensated-Oscilloscope_DataSheet.pdf)
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For applications where the timebase is SO critical, why not just use an external frequency reference (e.g., disciplined rubidium, cesium)? It seems that one might well need precision on the source side and other instruments too.
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I am getting glitchy video playback on the eevBLAB videos including this one. The video becomes unsynchronized from the sound. The video has a strange jittery looped playback appearance. Seems to only be a problem in HD. Windows 7 64-bit, Firefox browser.
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If the frequency stability craze continues a company like Rigol might very well have enough production volume to warrant something custom (but fundamentally cheap) like that.
With the number of devices that require increasingly accurate and stable clocks for various reasons, such an inexpensive compensated and stable integrated clock would likely become an off-the-shelf part found just about everywhere that can afford the power to run it.
For applications where the timebase is SO critical, why not just use an external frequency reference (e.g., disciplined rubidium, cesium)? It seems that one might well need precision on the source side and other instruments too.
You do not necessarily want to lug around your clock reference whenever and wherever you need a reasonably accurate measurement. The scope likely has a reference in/out in case you want to either use the lab's reference when one is available or use the scope as the reference for your other equipment otherwise, sparing you the trouble of lugging a reference around when the scope's internal clock is good enough.
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For applications where the timebase is SO critical, why not just use an external frequency reference (e.g., disciplined rubidium, cesium)? It seems that one might well need precision on the source side and other instruments too.
You do not necessarily want to lug around your clock reference whenever and wherever you need a reasonably accurate measurement. The scope likely has a reference in/out in case you want to either use the lab's reference when one is available or use the scope as the reference for your other equipment otherwise, sparing you the trouble of lugging a reference around when the scope's internal clock is good enough.
Agreed that reasonable accuracy is important and I'm glad to see a good TCXO. I suppose short-term repeatability is more the point of the gravity compensation since it is much finer than the inherent timebase accuracy anyway:
The (DRAFT) spec sheet indicates:
Time base accuracy: TCXO ±0.05ppm + aging factor (1st year: ±0.005 ppm, 2nd year: ±0.01 ppm, 5 years: ±0.03 ppm) over any ?1 ms interval over operational temperature range.
Gravity Compensation: ±0.01ppb maximum TCXO timebase change over +/-2.5g range and 0.31 GRMS (5-500 Hz) maximum vibration
Now HP Agilent Keysight just needs to build in compensation for relativistic effects. :-)
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I am most interested in the integration of instruments that we've seen in recent years. Scope, 12-digit counter, arb wave gen, SA, all in one box with a nice interface and big screen -- very neat. I can see how industrial use might not be satisfied with only such an integrated instrument, but for hobby / small shop use it's very appealing.
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I wonder if you make a 3 axis MEMS device, and then use it to generate the compensation coefficients for the TXCO if that would allow the oscillator to be more accurate, down to the 0.01PPB level, as opposed to the current Tek one of being compensated to 0.1 PPB, which is an order of magnitude better than the original unit.
Then you can compensate for it being used anywhere in the world, and it might even be possible to compensate it for use in space, as there you do need to compensate for Einsteinian effects on clocks, as they do run slower in orbit. If they need somebody to hold it in the ISS I am available, just not tomorrow as I am busy all day, full day already set out and then I might even be able to do my own work a little.
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Sorry Dave, this one is not for you. It works for the Northern Hemisphere only. Using this baby on the Southern Hemisphere will only result in a double error. Maybe next year Tek will issue a probe that compensates?
Tek has already issued a work around for this. You just have to turn the scope upside down.
It's a software bug. There's already an open case for it and they'll get it fixed "real soon".
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Dave already used this workaround for oscilloscopes that have been manufactured on the northern hemisphere.
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Well, I guess the AGO3104 model will cost around $14,000USD. I could buy a house for that money! :scared: ;)
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The links on the Tek page don't work for the video or "Read More". Did they actually have content there and it's just slashdotted now?
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The links on the Tek page don't work for the video or "Read More". Did they actually have content there and it's just slashdotted now?
Not working yet, but don't forget it's an unreleased product. I'm sure the people at Tek are working just as hard on the marketing media as they are on the scope itself...
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Well, I guess the AGO3104 model will cost around $14,000USD. I could buy a house for that money! :scared: ;)
I heard on the US market it will cost $41,000USD.
Europeans should get a better deal at 14,000EUR, though
Rest of the world i don't know. Depends on their local customs in this day and age, i guess ;D
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What is the Agilent counter you use in the video?
53131A
Ahh, I thought it was an HP 40115A. Thanks. ;)
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The next stage is quite obvious: Relativistic effects compensated oscilloscope - you choose your frame of reference, enter your speed, the speed of the measured system, any additional gravitational fields in place and you're in!
AFAIK, Keysight is working on their GPS compensated Scope, which has all these things built in. I'm very disappointed that this was not addressed before, even a very low, 4.2 Km/s speed is enough to cause 1ppb error. It is supposed to be launched on the 31. of April, Ijon Tichy himself will be hosting the show when they launch.
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Such compensation is very important, especially in countries such as Australia where the gravity is negative and the electrons fall out. ;D
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AFAIK, Keysight is working on their GPS compensated Scope, which has all these things built in. I'm very disappointed that this was not addressed before, even a very low, 4.2 Km/s speed is enough to cause 1ppb error. It is supposed to be launched on the 31. of April, Ijon Tichy himself will be hosting the show when they launch.
I heard I. Tichy will present the new KeySigh scope on the next Futurological Congress - didn't know that it will already happen on the 31. of April...
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AFAIK, Keysight is working on their GPS compensated Scope, which has all these things built in. I'm very disappointed that this was not addressed before, even a very low, 4.2 Km/s speed is enough to cause 1ppb error. It is supposed to be launched on the 31. of April, Ijon Tichy himself will be hosting the show when they launch.
I heard I. Tichy will present the new KeySigh scope on the next Futurological Congress - didn't know that it will already happen on the 31. of April...
To be honest, I read books. Didn't watch the german TV show.
You edited the post this doesnt count. ;D
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To be honest, I read books. Didn't watch the german TV show.
You edited the post this doesnt count. ;D
Yes, i edited my comment. Stanislaw Lem being such a well known writer, i found my original comment somewhat ...erm... dumb... ;D
(Also read his books - he and P. K. Dick are being my favorite writers. Also have seen the German TV series, and i found it to be rather good and funny...) (EDIT: Just made a pointless edit just for the sake of editing my comment :P )
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Dave, please publish the outtakes from making this video, I noticed quite a few more cuts than usual ;)
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Damn it, I wanted that 12 digit counter...
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I'm holding out for a scope that can have a conversation with me.
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(http://themodernmage.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/shut-up-and-take-my-money-530x298.jpg)
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I'm holding out for a scope that can have a conversation with me.
To realize this to its fullest potential, you would need to equip the scope also with vision system and 2 to 4 manipulator arms to handle the probes.
"Scope, diagnose this circuit in front of you and search the internet for solutions for all the problems it has."
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Diagnosis: PEBCAK error. The circuit is doing exactly what it should be doing under the circumstances.
Shame, really. I'm still waiting for an IDE that'll let me press CTRL-B to select all bugs, then <DEL> to remove them.
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Dave, please publish the outtakes from making this video, I noticed quite a few more cuts than usual
No outtakes, just the usual single take first time Blab video. Because I was editing in the overlay video, thought I'd take out some um's and ah's as well.
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How about an Anti-Gravity-Oscilloscope :D
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Yes, Cpt. bigsky Obvious, many of us have.
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The next stage is quite obvious: Relativistic effects compensated oscilloscope - you choose your frame of reference, enter your speed, the speed of the measured system, any additional gravitational fields in place and you're in!
Star Tek
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This might explain why the traces on my DS1054Z are a bit above the center line. I am at 2500m altitude and the gravity is a bit less here. Oh well, time to hurt my wallet again.
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I think this video might have been published a little too early for us west of Greenwich!
D'oh! :palm:
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So you obviously had some "Teknical" help. It's nice to see a company with a sense of humor.
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I bet they get the extra memory bandwidth by using a bunch of these babies!
http://repeater-builder.com/molotora/gontor/25120-bw.pdf (http://repeater-builder.com/molotora/gontor/25120-bw.pdf)
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I bet they get the extra memory bandwidth by using a bunch of these babies!
http://repeater-builder.com/molotora/gontor/25120-bw.pdf (http://repeater-builder.com/molotora/gontor/25120-bw.pdf)
Gotta get me some of that write only memory.
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So you obviously had some "Teknical" help. It's nice to see a company with a sense of humor.
Conspiracy!!! :-DD :-DD :-DD
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no wonder i cant decode my rs232 signal..........its got to be my DSO's time base is off right |O
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It was about time, this scope is exactly what I need.
I needed better accuracy for some old project and no existing oscilloscope had gravity compensated oscillator. Compensating for the other stuff is relatively easy temperature, humidity, time of the day and such, but compensating for gravity it is more difficult.
I’ve found a DIY solution to achieve gravity compensation. Basically we fixed the oscilloscope in a device which allowed it to spin on one axis. After some experiments we’ve found that about 3000 rpm gave the best gravity compensation. It was difficult to get the power supply and signals to the spinning oscilloscope but it was doable. Reading the display was solved by using the simplest solution available, we just used a 3D TV active glasses and synchronized to the spinning frequency of the oscilloscope so it let light through only when the oscilloscope’s display was in the right position.
This improved much the oscilloscope’s accuracy but still was not quite enough for our project. So new ideas were developed, e.g. spinning the oscilloscope on all 3 axes should improve the measurements by at least an order a magnitude, but now we don’t need all that, thanks to Tektronix.
Does anyone know when this will be available, I would need it soon.
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Finally the T&M industry is catching up. High end watches have had gravity compensated oscillators (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourbillon) since around 1800.
I wonder when they will introduced a cloud based solution. No more reference oscillator in your device, it could all be pulled from the internet.
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I have had some success experimenting with connecting several crystal to a PIC (16F628) to improve accuracy by averaging out the ppm errors of the individual crystals.
After watching this eevBLAB I had a brainwave and have decided to connect a total of 6 crystals. A pair in each x-y-z plane but in opposite orientation in an attempt to totally eliminate the effects of gravity. Again the initial results look quite promising. A side effect is that the PIC does not always startup properly after a power reset.
As with calibration, it takes quite some time to allow the experiments time to settle and ensure long term stability and the effects of gravity are actually cancelled. Also need to ensure the results are repeatable and fix the startup issues. I am hopeful experimenting with the crystal bypass caps may help.
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Hmm, never used a scope in a plane before.. should try it :)
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I would not be surprised that Tektronix may have some interest in public/private space exploration, aircraft, etc. - offering scope compensated to gravity effects is a smart move.
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I would not be surprised that Tektronix may have some interest in public/private space exploration, aircraft, etc. - offering scope compensated to gravity effects is a smart move.
You also need to take relativistic effects into account for space travel (or even on the ISS), not just gravity.
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Hmm...
EEVblog #597 - Fluke 114 Kit Multimeter + Sparkfun/Fluke Rant: released on March 30, 2014
:-X
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Hi Dave. I like your video about the great new Oscilloscope.
It's time someone constructed one to compensate gravity.
Well, I'm an obstetrician and I constructed one,
which compensates for gravidity also and makes a good coffee!
Alex
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Hmm...
EEVblog #597 - Fluke 114 Kit Multimeter
The multimeter kit was a good one. Love the anti-static bags with their labels, etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFyEqcVpKLI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFyEqcVpKLI)
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So I guess this means its Spring. What next. The infinite improbability scope?
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I wonder how the engineers in Tektronix compensate for these other variations, some of which cause 10x as much effect as gravity?
i am wondering too. They are using a TCXO with a better stability than any OCXO i know. Even aging is better - how did they do that (well okay - aging is mostly linear, maybe it's software-compensated)?
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Actually I put a lot of high density bricks around my oscilloscope it really helps to attenuate and dampen the gravity aberrations where I live. I have been doing this for years now and I am very happy with the results. I am still working on compensating for the tidal variations from the sun and moon.
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So...
Was that an April 1st video, or is it a real product?
I'm in Chile now, which is also upside down, but the date is N+1(+-50%), so i can't quite figure out if there was April 1st anywhere back then or not.
Tektronix page does look fishy...
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Its a winner.
I'll buy one if is equipped with the unique Tektronix patented
Write Only Memory (WOM) and the gold plated bi-stable switch glands.
I looked in the option list but I cannot find the 3 phase 400V AC version!
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http://www.tek.com/blog (http://www.tek.com/blog)
:) :) :-+