Low Cost PCB's Low Cost Components

Author Topic: EEVblog #1031 - $25 DPS3003 PSU Module Characterisation  (Read 1960 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 24374
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
EEVblog #1031 - $25 DPS3003 PSU Module Characterisation
« on: October 11, 2017, 10:27:28 AM »
Characterising the performance and efficiency of the $25 DPS3003 30V 3A lab power supply module from RDtech.
Includes a how-to on measuring DC-DC converter efficiency graphs, with module power loss on the secondary Y axis.

https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/RD-DPS3003-Constant-Voltage-current-Step-down-Programmable-Power-Supply-module-buck-Voltage-converter-color-LCD/923042_32685187020.html

XL7005 datasheet: http://www.xlsemi.com/datasheet/XL7005A%20datasheet-English.pdf

 
The following users thanked this post: ez24

Offline w33m4n_

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 5
  • Country: de
Re: EEVblog #1031 - $25 DPS3003 PSU Module Characterisation
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2017, 11:41:35 AM »
just a short tutorial for the user interface. after you missed the fast adjust for the unit.
its from julian ilett on a simular converter.

https://youtu.be/mJqPkGe7DzA?t=5m19s

starts at 5 min 19 sec.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 11:46:06 AM by w33m4n_ »
 

Offline strangersound

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 149
  • Country: us
  • Resistance Is Not Futile
Re: EEVblog #1031 - $25 DPS3003 PSU Module Characterisation
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2017, 01:21:56 PM »
"I learned a long time ago that reality was much weirder than anyone's imagination." - Hunter S. Thompson
 

Offline ez24

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2554
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #1031 - $25 DPS3003 PSU Module Characterisation
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2017, 02:34:17 PM »
The Signal Path via Hackaday is just in time:

https://hackaday.com/2017/10/10/cleaning-up-a-low-cost-buck-boost-supply/


This is the first video I have seen that shows a way to reduce ripple from a switcher.  (I asked a year ago)
According to AoE, LC filters do not work, they recommend linear regs.  SP says he did not use one because of variable voltage.  I wonder if a way could be used using LDOs.  Maybe a ganged pot?

Another question

Does the ripple really matter?



Does anyone know of a var switcher using a LDO so there is less voltage drop?

Offline Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 5349
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #1031 - $25 DPS3003 PSU Module Characterisation
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2017, 03:20:49 PM »
Another question

Does the ripple really matter?

It depends on the circuit being powered.  With some simple LED lighting it won't matter - but I wouldn't like to run a low level audio amplifier or an ADC directly from one of these.
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 24374
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #1031 - $25 DPS3003 PSU Module Characterisation
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2017, 03:24:44 PM »
The Signal Path via Hackaday is just in time:

https://hackaday.com/2017/10/10/cleaning-up-a-low-cost-buck-boost-supply/


This is the first video I have seen that shows a way to reduce ripple from a switcher.  (I asked a year ago)

It's a very poor one though. In this case 8W wasted in the opamp (4V drop x 2A), and the nice voltage control on the module is now useless because it does not reflect the output.

Quote
According to AoE, LC filters do not work, they recommend linear regs.

If you want very low noise, then sure.
But there is a lot to be said for just adding a simple LC filter, so they do "work".
 

Offline KuchateK

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 75
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #1031 - $25 DPS3003 PSU Module Characterisation
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2017, 03:41:28 PM »
FFcossag experimented with different coils and caps to filter noise from cheap switching PSU. Spoiler (this is very long video): common mode choke with couple ceramic caps on the output reduces noise significantly.

He used 3.9mH 8A rated common mode choke from Epcos and 100nF + 6.8nF caps. Without filter his PSU had 120-500mVpp of noise (tested at various currents). After mod he went down to 20-70mVpp.

 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w, ez24

Offline FrankBuss

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1745
  • Country: de
    • Frank Buss
Re: EEVblog #1031 - $25 DPS3003 PSU Module Characterisation
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2017, 05:08:12 PM »
This looks really painful to manually write down and enter all these numbers. I know you are not a software person, but I recommend that you install something like the Raspberry Pi logging platform, with which you can connect pretty everything which has USBTMC, GPIB etc. Then you can write a simple Python script to control your power supply and read the measurements of a multimeter, and write it in a CSV file. There are examples for my SPD3303D power supply and for lots of benchtop multimeters for copy-and-paste. Might need some time before you got it all working, but then you save time whenever you want to do it again, and you wouldn't even think "no, that's too much work, I don't want to write all the numbers down manually again", which might result in more interesting characteristics diagrams on your Youtube channel :)
quadro copter flying, electronics, retro computing and other geeky things: http://www.youtube.com/user/frankbuss/
 

Online kalel

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 610
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #1031 - $25 DPS3003 PSU Module Characterisation
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2017, 07:23:07 PM »
This looks really painful to manually write down and enter all these numbers. I know you are not a software person, but I recommend that you install something like the Raspberry Pi logging platform, with which you can connect pretty everything which has USBTMC, GPIB etc. Then you can write a simple Python script to control your power supply and read the measurements of a multimeter, and write it in a CSV file. There are examples for my SPD3303D power supply and for lots of benchtop multimeters for copy-and-paste. Might need some time before you got it all working, but then you save time whenever you want to do it again, and you wouldn't even think "no, that's too much work, I don't want to write all the numbers down manually again", which might result in more interesting characteristics diagrams on your Youtube channel :)

One alternative might be to enter the numbers directly into a table instead of writing them down. Not comparative to the automatic method, of course.

That made me think of a simple question, would it be possible to use text recognition software(or custom software for those with the know how) and a webcam attached on a stand to record data (any data) from a cheap multimeter that doesn't have an external interface? Speed shouldn't be an issue with cheap multimeters, as usually they have 2-3 updates per second. A cheap webcam should be able to get at least a few FPS more than that even in bad lighting conditions and worst case scenarios, and manual focus should allow to get reasonably sharp numbers. A USB microscope and stand could probably be used if it can "see" the entire number.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 07:25:20 PM by kalel »
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 24374
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #1031 - $25 DPS3003 PSU Module Characterisation
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2017, 07:41:47 PM »
This looks really painful to manually write down and enter all these numbers.

Not really, it's very quick when you get in the swing of it, maybe 5 seconds per data point. Or just a couple of minutes per curve.
Data entry is pretty quick, again a few minutes per curve.
So I'd wager that I can fully charcterise a converter by hand in less time than it takes to even figure out an automated solution, let alone implement it.
Yes, if you were going to do this over and over again with different converters then it might be worth it, but otherwise manual is juts fine.
 

Offline manu

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 61
  • Country: fr
Re: EEVblog #1031 - $25 DPS3003 PSU Module Characterisation
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2017, 07:42:20 PM »
Andreas Spiess does a low cost SMU based on this device (which has a software control and bluetooth option) and a low cost electronic load: https://youtu.be/QxR-_ZnREQQ?
 
The following users thanked this post: elecman14

Offline hli

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 97
Re: EEVblog #1031 - $25 DPS3003 PSU Module Characterisation
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2017, 09:34:45 PM »
Just stumbled upon this article: https://www.edn.com/design/power-management/4458920/Designing-second-stage-output-filters-for-switching-power-supplies-
It also has some calculations for RC and LC filters, and explains what the pitfalls are (at least some of them).
 
The following users thanked this post: ez24

Online RGB255_0_0

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 774
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #1031 - $25 DPS3003 PSU Module Characterisation
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2017, 09:54:43 PM »
The Signal Path via Hackaday is just in time:

https://hackaday.com/2017/10/10/cleaning-up-a-low-cost-buck-boost-supply/
Someone mentions using a Pi filter instead. What's that?
Your toaster just set fire to an African child over TCP.
 

Offline NANDBlog

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3337
  • Country: be
Re: EEVblog #1031 - $25 DPS3003 PSU Module Characterisation
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2017, 10:12:48 PM »
This looks really painful to manually write down and enter all these numbers.
Not really, I used to do these kind of measurements a lot. You just enter a different state of mind, and do it. I don't bother bringing up a script, unless I need say 300+ points. Or the measurements are for production, and it will be done by someone else.
 

Offline Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 5349
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #1031 - $25 DPS3003 PSU Module Characterisation
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2017, 11:47:17 PM »
Someone mentions using a Pi filter instead. What's that?

Google is your friend.

It is simply two capacitors and an inductor placed in the shape of the Greek letter pi



RL is simply the load.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 11:50:51 PM by Brumby »
 
The following users thanked this post: RGB255_0_0

Offline FrankBuss

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1745
  • Country: de
    • Frank Buss
Re: EEVblog #1031 - $25 DPS3003 PSU Module Characterisation
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2017, 02:15:20 AM »
This looks really painful to manually write down and enter all these numbers.

Not really, it's very quick when you get in the swing of it, maybe 5 seconds per data point. Or just a couple of minutes per curve.
Data entry is pretty quick, again a few minutes per curve.
So I'd wager that I can fully charcterise a converter by hand in less time than it takes to even figure out an automated solution, let alone implement it.
Yes, if you were going to do this over and over again with different converters then it might be worth it, but otherwise manual is juts fine.

Right, for one measurement it is faster to do it manually, but you did such measurements already a few times, and I'm sure it won't be the last time, so it might be worth to invest once the time to automate it. I guess would be piece of cake for David2, who is more into software, and maybe even worth a EEVacademy video, for anyone who wants to know how easy it is to use Python to automate things. Could be even combined with the WiringPi library to control GPIOs for switching external muxes etc.
quadro copter flying, electronics, retro computing and other geeky things: http://www.youtube.com/user/frankbuss/
 

Offline metrologist

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 791
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #1031 - $25 DPS3003 PSU Module Characterisation
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2017, 02:25:48 AM »
 :-//

 

Offline Cerebus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1641
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #1031 - $25 DPS3003 PSU Module Characterisation
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2017, 02:37:28 AM »
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline metrologist

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 791
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #1031 - $25 DPS3003 PSU Module Characterisation
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2017, 03:04:39 AM »
I didn't mean it literally. Maybe just another filter to try.
 

Offline maelli

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 22
Re: EEVblog #1031 - $25 DPS3003 PSU Module Characterisation
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2017, 04:52:16 AM »
Losses @ 1.5V are higher:
I guess this is because the more-lossy-than-the-FET freewheeling diode (Schottky or not) is most of the time conducting at low voltage.
Verly short duty cycle on the FET, long duty cycle on the diode.
 

Offline Zad

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1007
  • Country: gb
    • Digital Wizardry, Analogue Alchemy, Software Sorcery
Re: EEVblog #1031 - $25 DPS3003 PSU Module Characterisation
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2017, 03:03:36 PM »
Does anyone know of a var switcher using a LDO so there is less voltage drop?

Linear published an interesting design in their in-house magazine "LT Journal of Analog Innovation" July 2014

http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/lt-journal/LTJournal-V24N2-2014-07.pdf

(True 0-24V, 3A)
It uses an LT8612 buck reg followed by a pair of LT3081 linears (drop circa 1.25V) configured so they both track the demanded voltage.
 
The following users thanked this post: vinicius.jlantunes

Offline Kleinstein

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3332
  • Country: de
Re: EEVblog #1031 - $25 DPS3003 PSU Module Characterisation
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2017, 05:14:05 AM »
Having a linear regulator following the SMPS part is a good idea to reduce ripple. It would be even better with a LC filter in between.
 Just using a filter is tricky, as the filter will also add some voltage drop from residual resistance and slow down the regulators response. So regulation would suffer from a significant filter. A small filter to get rid of some higher frequency part can be still a good idea.

The combined SMPS + linear regulator should however ideally be controlled by the linear part first and than set the SMPS to keep an more or less constant drop oupout. Just adding a linear regulator for a constant drop is kind of ugly, as the output of the SMPS is not as exact as the ser point.
 

Offline Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 5349
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #1031 - $25 DPS3003 PSU Module Characterisation
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2017, 11:28:32 AM »
All we need is to have a remote sense input for the regulator's output, so it can monitor the voltage on the other side of any filtering.  Default would be to have a link connecting this directly to the output from the regulator.
 

Offline KE5FX

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 630
  • Country: us
    • KE5FX.COM
Re: EEVblog #1031 - $25 DPS3003 PSU Module Characterisation
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2017, 02:17:36 PM »
It's not that LC filters don't work -- they obviously do -- but the usual practice of grabbing any old inductor and any old capacitor you have lying around is unlikely to help.  If you can't verify the effect of an LC filter, don't add it.  In the frequency domain, they don't reduce broadband noise as much as they tend to herd it into a small portion of the spectrum near their corner frequency,  They can be effective at suppressing ripple at a specific frequency, but be sure to do the math or at least the measurement to verify that you've improved matters.

Also, always check the transient behavior during power on/off with a scope.  You may find you're generating a spike that can hose your downstream devices. :(
 

Offline nuno

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 465
Re: EEVblog #1031 - $25 DPS3003 PSU Module Characterisation
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2017, 05:13:28 AM »
I wonder if these modules/module-based-PSU would pass FCC/CE/... EMC compatibility tests... and if not, what changes would be necessary to make them pass.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf