Author Topic: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained  (Read 2369 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« on: March 18, 2018, 10:12:01 am »
A further clarification to the previous video on the Hakko FX-888D vs the JBC direct heat CD-2B soldering station. And the differences between applied power, tip design, sensor design, control loop design, and power delivery to a ground plane.
Power measurements and DaveCAD explanations.

https://kit.com/EEVblog/soldering-equipment

« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 11:53:34 am by EEVblog »
 

Online Bud

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2018, 10:18:25 am »
Is it a right link to the video? I am asked to sign in  :-//
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2018, 11:54:17 am »
Is it a right link to the video? I am asked to sign in  :-//

The new Youtube video manager defaults to the edit video link and not the public link, I copied the wrong one. Fixed.
 
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Online Bud

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2018, 03:04:33 pm »
I was terrified by the way the Agilent U1733C handheld was used in the setup    :scared:
 

Online wilfred

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2018, 05:05:28 pm »
Skin effect. Now where have I heard that before?
 

Online blueskull

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2018, 05:21:06 pm »
I was terrified by the way the Agilent U1733C handheld was used in the setup    :scared:

A message to GAS/TEA people: any equipment will have a chance to get used. Collect them!
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Offline BravoV

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2018, 08:17:22 pm »
My Hakko heater element is a celebrity now.  ;D

Its from my old thread when discussing the topic about "fake vs genuine" Hakko 936 parts, like the heater -> Here , and the tip -> Here

Example photo of genuine vs fake, top is genuine one, while last two are dodgy ones.

Click to enlarge picture.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 08:20:42 pm by BravoV »
 
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Offline TuxKey

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2018, 10:16:20 pm »
My Hakko heater element is a celebrity now.  ;D

Its from my old thread when discussing the topic about "fake vs genuine" Hakko 936 parts, like the heater -> Here , and the tip -> Here

Example photo of genuine vs fake, top is genuine one, while last two are dodgy ones.

Click to enlarge picture.


will definitely read that post thanks.. i came across a lot of alternative parts even sold here in The Netherlands.. And it's always nice to know your not only paying for the brand name but real quality and most likely better quality control.
 

Offline mancausoft

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2018, 01:25:36 am »
I was thinking... Is it possible to adapt the new tips to an old station? i mean a handle stick for new tips.
the tecnology inside is the same: resistence and sensors... if the sensor is the same...

it could be useful to exchange an old-style handle with a new style in the same station ... the old tips are cheaper, and they are great for dirty jobs, the new ones can be used for more precise jobs

Offline gearshredder

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2018, 01:48:46 am »
The metcal fanboy in me has been satisfied lol. Good video!
 

Offline langwadt

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2018, 02:26:48 am »
Surprisingly the sloppy fit between the heater and tip, does it bottom out in the tip so at least the sensor end has a good connection to the tip?

Some +20 years ago I build a temperature controlled iron from a kit, it measured temperature by measuring the resistance
of the heating element at every zero crossing, great idea if it was the temperature of the heating element you were trying to control...
 

Offline TuxKey

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2018, 02:29:10 am »
i just contacted Aoyue eu. And told them about the nice EEVblog coverage related to soldering technologies.
In my opinion the best if not the only in depth / informative series on soldering..  :-+ and more to come  :)

So i told them the only thing missing is in the comparison is an Aoyue product and that i couldn't find any reviews of their soldering iron with the new tech. like the 2901 and the digital 2900....
Asking them if they would consider sending one to David for review...
Will see what their answer is  ;D

for anyone wondering to what device i'm referring to:
http://www.aoyue.eu/aoyue-soldering-hotair-rework-desoldering-station-preheater-repairing/aoyue-adjustable-digital-station-lead-free-soldering-iron/aoyue-int2900-digital-lead-free-soldering-station-smd-soldering-iron-wq-serie.html

 
 

Offline gearshredder

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2018, 02:47:58 am »
I was thinking... Is it possible to adapt the new tips to an old station? i mean a handle stick for new tips.
the tecnology inside is the same: resistence and sensors... if the sensor is the same...

it could be useful to exchange an old-style handle with a new style in the same station ... the old tips are cheaper, and they are great for dirty jobs, the new ones can be used for more precise jobs

Make a new thread about it. Match heater resistance with a station with same thermocouple and an easy way to calibrate. Temperature may over or undershoot with the new style because the response is different.
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2018, 03:28:53 am »
i just contacted Aoyue eu. And told them about the nice EEVblog coverage related to soldering technologies.
In my opinion the best if not the only in depth / informative series on soldering..  :-+ and more to come  :)

So i told them the only thing missing is in the comparison is an Aoyue product and that i couldn't find any reviews of their soldering iron with the new tech. like the 2901 and the digital 2900....
Asking them if they would consider sending one to David for review...
Will see what their answer is  ;D

for anyone wondering to what device i'm referring to:
http://www.aoyue.eu/aoyue-soldering-hotair-rework-desoldering-station-preheater-repairing/aoyue-adjustable-digital-station-lead-free-soldering-iron/aoyue-int2900-digital-lead-free-soldering-station-smd-soldering-iron-wq-serie.html

The real deal is how the tip was built + fit into the heater rod "optimally".

Aoyue, Quick and those Chinese soldering iron manufacturers are basically started their business by cloning Hakko 936.

Until nowadays, I don't see many reviewers review the tip technology involved.

Say using FX-888D (same heater & tip as Hakko 936), using the real tip vs dodgy one is pretty obvious, don't need to scientifically test them, you can instantly feel the difference between genuine tip vs 1 dollar tip.

As above close up photos, the genuine one has a proper copper insert or maybe coating ? While the 2nd dodgy one, the hole is off center and has a tiny crack (if you look carefully), while the 3rd one is basically hopeless, its made from steel with no copper inside what so ever.

 
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Offline hli

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2018, 05:27:29 am »
When using a "circuit equivalent" of the solder iron to explain the heat transfer, wouldn't it be better to model the air gap between heater and tip as additional capacitance? After all, when applying constant heat with the cartridge, the tip will react to it with a delay. I think this also better explains the time-lag of temperature regulation.
 

Offline stranger

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2018, 05:34:17 am »
TuxKey, I’ve been using Aouye 2900 since 2010, bought in the UK from an established channel, as were the tips. I’ve a suspicion Aoyue is moving forward in a different direction to the 2900. Years ago I read somewhere a claim the 2900 was based on a Hakko design. The tips are not  mechanically compatible with the Hakko T12 tips, lacking the ridge that the Hakko ones have half way up the shaft.

I’ve used two Aoyue 2900, they have been value for money but not without issues, like others the firmware is not totally honest on the instantaneous tip temperature. The Aoyue iron I don’t have access to now would very occasionally ‘crash’ requiring a power cycle.
The bits only have two connections despite some having a third ring. I did not expect the variation in the cold resistance the tips, I have a suspicion some were intended for a different product, most are about 8 ohm a few 11 ohms, but one is 6 ohms. Hakko tips seem to be 8 ohm +/-10%.

The Aoyue firmware I’ve seen lacks a timeout if its unused for a while, at least one person has written their own code.

I got interested in increasing the power to speed up the warm up and recovery, its not running hotter just getting to temp faster and even better for ground planes. Ended up running it up to about 160W, the test software is labVIEW, external PSU and hardware. There is still a time constant limitation in the Aoyue Tips that I’ve not explored, doubling the available power was a bit disappointing. I’d need to dissect the tips and look at the thermal design of how the coils (?) are wound etc.

The Bakon BK950D appears to use clones of the Hakko T12 tips rather than the Aoyue:

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/bakon-bk950d-soldering-station-my-opinion!!/
 
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Offline screwbreaker

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2018, 07:21:46 am »
Also Weller has an active stand to reduce the tip temperature and increase the tips longevity. They call this function "Stop+Go". I think is the standard iron stand for high end models. For low end solutions is sold separately, and it is really expensive.
https://www.weller.de/en/Weller--Products--Product-details.html?article_id=D0356795001379336401A118003#{%22string%22:%22%22,%22current_site%22:%22weller%22,%22current_brand%22:%22Weller%22}

I don't know if it is available also for the WE 1010.

Also PACE has a solution like this.
https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/accessories/instantsetback-cubby
 

Offline ejeffrey

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2018, 07:50:55 am »
When using a "circuit equivalent" of the solder iron to explain the heat transfer, wouldn't it be better to model the air gap between heater and tip as additional capacitance? After all, when applying constant heat with the cartridge, the tip will react to it with a delay. I think this also better explains the time-lag of temperature regulation.

The model dave drew is incomplete and only for illustrative purposes (i.e., he didn't have time to build it to scale or paint it).

The resistance is sufficient to explain why the tip can be cooler than the readout temperature.  A capacitance by itself wouldn't do.  A capacitance represents the thermal mass of the components such as the heater or the tip.  That can capture the ability of the tip to store heat and the recovery time after you remove the iron before it can heat back up.

You also need resistances to "ground" to represent the heat loss to the surroundings and also the heat load of the soldering joint.  Without that, the circuit Dave drew doesn't even have a loop.
 

Offline crispus

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2018, 08:06:33 am »
Isn't there any high temperature thermally conductive paste to transform this "old" technology into the new one?
I know I'm numskull, but I look around me and I feel better.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2018, 09:16:40 am »
Isn't there any high temperature thermally conductive paste to transform this "old" technology into the new one?

Maybe, but if there was wouldn't the manufacturers be using it or offering it?
Cue the conspiracy theorists about "Big Iron" and how they are protecting the market for their more expensive irons  ;D
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2018, 09:44:18 am »
Isn't there any high temperature thermally conductive paste to transform this "old" technology into the new one?

I tried Copper anti-sieze brake grease on an Atten 938D. It's rated for the temperature, but fumes a lot first use and tends to extrude down between the sleeve an the unheated part of the element.

The other thing I found was that there was enough space between the element and tip to accept a thin single layer of Copper foil (screening foil from CT100 coax). It did improve thermal performance a bit but it made it awkward to change tips. The foil would disintegrate quickly, implying that the element and foil were getting an awful lot hotter than the tip. The Atten is now relegated to a high shelf.
Chris

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Offline ejeffrey

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2018, 02:39:26 pm »
To make it a lot better, I imagine you either need some conductive goop like Gyro's anti-seize, or to permanently bond the tip to the heater cartridge with something like silver epoxy.  This would make tip changes annoying at best.

No matter how well you thermally connect the tip to the heater, I think it still wouldn't be as good as a system designed around an integral heater/tip, and it still wouldn't have the features like auto-sleep that direct heat stations typically come with.

So yeah, if you want to eke out a bit more performance out of the iron you have, I wouldn't be surprised if you can do this.  But I don't think you are going to equal or replace the commercially available direct heat irons.
 

Offline hli

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2018, 08:20:43 pm »
The resistance is sufficient to explain why the tip can be cooler than the readout temperature.  A capacitance by itself wouldn't do.  A capacitance represents the thermal mass of the components such as the heater or the tip.  That can capture the ability of the tip to store heat and the recovery time after you remove the iron before it can heat back up.
With a purely "resistive" model, the tip would always be colder than the temperature at the point of measurement, by a fixed (or maybe proportional) amount. I understand that. This can be handled by defining an offset temperature. But it does not explain the delay in regulation, and why the Hakko does not go into full-power mode when the temperature drops too low (which it should when soldering on a big ground plane).
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2018, 08:26:10 pm »
The resistance is sufficient to explain why the tip can be cooler than the readout temperature.  A capacitance by itself wouldn't do.  A capacitance represents the thermal mass of the components such as the heater or the tip.  That can capture the ability of the tip to store heat and the recovery time after you remove the iron before it can heat back up.
With a purely "resistive" model, the tip would always be colder than the temperature at the point of measurement, by a fixed (or maybe proportional) amount. I understand that. This can be handled by defining an offset temperature. But it does not explain the delay in regulation, and why the Hakko does not go into full-power mode when the temperature drops too low (which it should when soldering on a big ground plane).

Overshoot problem maybe ?
 

Offline FloFo

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2018, 08:36:21 pm »
The resistance is sufficient to explain why the tip can be cooler than the readout temperature.  A capacitance by itself wouldn't do.  A capacitance represents the thermal mass of the components such as the heater or the tip.  That can capture the ability of the tip to store heat and the recovery time after you remove the iron before it can heat back up.
With a purely "resistive" model, the tip would always be colder than the temperature at the point of measurement, by a fixed (or maybe proportional) amount. I understand that. This can be handled by defining an offset temperature. But it does not explain the delay in regulation, and why the Hakko does not go into full-power mode when the temperature drops too low (which it should when soldering on a big ground plane).
It's not a fixed amount, but the amount is dependet of the thermal current. When you tip touches the wet sponge or a ground plane, you have a huge "current", giving only a small additional temperature drop between heater and sensor (due to small thermal resistance), but a huge drop between sensor and tip due to the big resistance of the airgap. This means that the controll loop still sees an accaptable temperature and doesn't go to full heat while the tips gets quite cold. The control loop still manages to keep the sensor at the desired temperature with occasional heats, so it doesn't see the need for more heating.
 
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