Author Topic: EEVblog #1066 - Uber Autonomous Car Fatality - How?  (Read 14760 times)

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Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #1066 - Uber Autonomous Car Fatality - How?
« Reply #75 on: March 23, 2018, 03:13:49 am »
Here's an interesting read related to any automated vehicle. Worth a look over. Its from the Austrialian Transportation Safety Board. The incident of Quantas Flight 72.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/3532398/ao2008070.pdf

Start on "Executive Summary". You're welcome to read the rest of 300+ pages though.  >:D


Sorry, not going to read it - because it's totally irrelevant.  You can throw words around as much as you like, but when it comes to average people driving cars, they are NOT going to be anywhere NEAR as involved as you are suggesting they should be.  To do what you are saying would require a whole new level of training and accountability ... and autonomous vehicles are moving us further away from such imposts.

It's just NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

Also, I strongly feel that your analogy with the airline industry is an insult to everybody involved.  For one thing, one of THE main dangers of aviation comes from the fact that when something goes wrong, a pilot cannot simply "pull over" to the side of the road, like you can in a car.  Running out of fuel is a life and death matter in the air.  On the ground, it's a nuisance.  I could go on and on....
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #1066 - Uber Autonomous Car Fatality - How?
« Reply #76 on: March 23, 2018, 03:22:46 am »
Protip: When using long range lights on the road, you actually see where you are driving. To think that a camera could even auto adjust that away in a recording seems bizarre imho.

You haven't worked with many cameras, have you?

Dynamic range is one of the greatest challenges and things don't get much more dynamic than night driving situations.
 

Online coppice

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Re: EEVblog #1066 - Uber Autonomous Car Fatality - How?
« Reply #77 on: March 23, 2018, 03:26:17 am »
Protip: When using long range lights on the road, you actually see where you are driving. To think that a camera could even auto adjust that away in a recording seems bizarre imho.

You haven't worked with many cameras, have you?

Dynamic range is one of the greatest challenges and things don't get much more dynamic than night driving situations.
Most dash cameras do a pretty good job at night. This Uber one seems to have done a rather poor job.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #1066 - Uber Autonomous Car Fatality - How?
« Reply #78 on: March 23, 2018, 03:29:02 am »
Agreed.  This one does an absolutely crap job, which is more the reason not to assign too much importance to the information it gives - or more importantly, does NOT give.
 
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Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #1066 - Uber Autonomous Car Fatality - How?
« Reply #79 on: March 23, 2018, 03:31:38 am »
Moving along from matters that this thread was never intended to debate, I would really like more discussion about how the technology failed to respond.

I'm pretty sure we can discount the possibility of an iced-up angle of attack sensor, so, what's next?
 

Offline TheDane

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Re: EEVblog #1066 - Uber Autonomous Car Fatality - How?
« Reply #80 on: March 23, 2018, 03:50:40 am »
Sad news!
Hopefully something good will come of this, and security - research and development won't get butchered, but improved in the future.

It seems to me that CEO's of various CORPiSES get away with too much, not even apologizing if/when something goes wrong:

The ledger has a security flaw - it seems. CEO hides behind  :=\
https://saleemrashid.com/2018/03/20/breaking-ledger-security-model/

"The vulnerability reported by Saleem requires physical access to the device BEFORE setup of the seed, installing a custom version of the MCU firmware, installing a malware on the target’s computer and have him confirm a very specific transaction."
"I am puzzled as to where this claim could have originated from. From later contact with Ledger, I was informed that the CEO had not at all been briefed on the security vulnerability when they made these comments on Reddit."


Then there's the recent Facebook data indicent, where Mark finally seems to be doing something - and apologizing. Guess being regulated isn't fun  :wtf:
https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/21/17150158/mark-zuckerberg-cnn-interview-cambridge-analytica

https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/19/17140962/facebook-chief-security-officer-leaving-alex-stamos
"As part of Stamos leaving, Facebook has reportedly broken down and reassigned his security team.
Almost all of the 120 employees have now been reassigned to product and infrastructure teams" 

120 people, wow. https://newsroom.fb.com/company-info/ reports 25,105 employees as of December 31, 2017  :scared:

Added - Full disclosureof all telemetry data from the vehicle would be needed in order to 'get a clear picture of what happened' imho.
and, don't cross any road without looking to the left/right making sure it is clear. Speeding however, is a criminal offense in most places, and only makes any incident worse  :rant:
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 03:54:41 am by TheDane »
 

Online orion242

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Re: EEVblog #1066 - Uber Autonomous Car Fatality - How?
« Reply #81 on: March 23, 2018, 04:07:38 am »
Speeding however, is a criminal offense in most places, and only makes any incident worse

Was 45mph speed limit and going 40 according to the reports.  You can see the sign right before the overpass on streetview.
 

Offline jonovid

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Re: EEVblog #1066 - Uber Autonomous Car Fatality - How?
« Reply #82 on: March 23, 2018, 04:09:22 am »
think autonomous vehicles will be part of the new so called 5G system including so called 5G or IOT smart roads technology.
that are roads with light poles that have electronic LiDAR or infrared sensors that see warm body's of pedestrians in a 360 view.
autonomous vehicles will pull data from the road system that will includ over the horizon and round the corner data.
of pedestrians vehicles esc. so autonomous vehicles will be part an electronic fixed rail type 5G system that is the smart road.
so dumb roads will be off limits to autonomous vehicles unless the vehicle has a steering wheel , pedals and a licensed driver behind it.
IMO do not expect anything too soon, but by 2025 autonomous vehicles will married to smart roads like trains to railroads.
it makes sense to have sensors outside the vehicle itself.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 04:12:22 am by jonovid »
Hobby of evil genius      basic knowledge of electronics
 

Offline CNe7532294

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Re: EEVblog #1066 - Uber Autonomous Car Fatality - How?
« Reply #83 on: March 23, 2018, 04:42:48 am »
Here's an interesting read related to any automated vehicle. Worth a look over. Its from the Austrialian Transportation Safety Board. The incident of Quantas Flight 72.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/3532398/ao2008070.pdf

Start on "Executive Summary". You're welcome to read the rest of 300+ pages though.  >:D


Sorry, not going to read it - because it's totally irrelevant.  You can throw words around as much as you like, but when it comes to average people driving cars, they are NOT going to be anywhere NEAR as involved as you are suggesting they should be.  To do what you are saying would require a whole new level of training and accountability ... and autonomous vehicles are moving us further away from such imposts.

It's just NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

Also, I strongly feel that your analogy with the airline industry is an insult to everybody involved.  For one thing, one of THE main dangers of aviation comes from the fact that when something goes wrong, a pilot cannot simply "pull over" to the side of the road, like you can in a car.  Running out of fuel is a life and death matter in the air.  On the ground, it's a nuisance.  I could go on and on....

You're missing the main point. :palm: Just because one operates in 3D and the other in 2D doesn't mean they have absolutely zero relation to each other. I don't expect you to read all of it. You didn't even bother reading my previous response in which I provide a solution to the thermal problem. :palm: I expect to connect the dots that caused the entire system to fail. One failure is not enough to cause the whole thing to fail after all. Its more of an insult to people who died or will die if you ignore all the possibilities and recommended preventative actions. Another thing, you really think that lowly of average people. Insulting much?

Also since you mentioned training, yes I do think people need to be educated and trained. Should it be as involved as a pilot? Of course not, but it goes a long way to help try preventing tragedies like this. Future drivers will also learn something new instead of slowly becoming dumb and lazy. Most people these days don't even know how to change a tire and straight away call AAA. Worse off, I wouldn't be surprised if people cover the sensor locations they are uneducated about with decals, flags or whatever. Who knows, maybe contributed here? |O

One more thing, you really haven't made any case to say why we should take a human being completely out of the loop (my main point!). Really, why should we take human beings out? If you could go on and on, please enlighten us. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind having a human out partly caused this accident's outcome. Its definitely a part of the "how". I highly doubt this question is irrelevant. At least try to say why its irrelevant instead of just saying "totally irrelevant" while being so focused on the airplane part.... :palm: You can improve all you want on the cameras but something else will just fail anyways. Don't be shocked if we come back to this same topic talking about yet another "superficial" failure if they end up fixing the camera only.
 

Offline AF6LJ

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Re: EEVblog #1066 - Uber Autonomous Car Fatality - How?
« Reply #84 on: March 23, 2018, 05:34:05 am »
I am sorry AI isn't far enough along for a car to be able to drive itself and have a perfect driving record.

Problems that need solutions.

1. get enough computing power and enough software to react to potentially dangerous situations for the car, it's passengers and anybody on the road. Make that reaction time equal to or better than human reaction time. The video shown in this thread shows the car doesn't have enough AI to "look ahead to potential accident situations, and act.".

2. When someone gets harmed by one of these robot cars, who pays medical costs. I think the software developers should pay the medical costs incurred by injured parties. Every software developer should be responsible for the actions of their software, no exceptions.

This was as stupid as space elevators. A human driver, even a marginally skilled human driver is much better at avoiding accidents than the state of the art in autonomous vehicles.
Sue AF6LJ
Test Equipment Addict, And Proud Of It.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: EEVblog #1066 - Uber Autonomous Car Fatality - How?
« Reply #85 on: March 23, 2018, 05:53:22 am »
1. get enough computing power and enough software to react to potentially dangerous situations for the car, it's passengers and anybody on the road. Make that reaction time equal to or better than human reaction time. The video shown in this thread shows the car doesn't have enough AI to "look ahead to potential accident situations, and act.".
Here autopilot detected that shit will happen way before human would expect.
 

Online coppice

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Re: EEVblog #1066 - Uber Autonomous Car Fatality - How?
« Reply #86 on: March 23, 2018, 05:59:32 am »
1. get enough computing power and enough software to react to potentially dangerous situations for the car, it's passengers and anybody on the road. Make that reaction time equal to or better than human reaction time. The video shown in this thread shows the car doesn't have enough AI to "look ahead to potential accident situations, and act.".
Here autopilot detected that shit will happen way before human would expect.

The Tesla was keeping a very sensible distance from the car ahead, so a human driver would have been able to easily stop in time. This is a nice demonstration of why tailgating is dumb, not a demonstration of where machines have an edge.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1066 - Uber Autonomous Car Fatality - How?
« Reply #87 on: March 23, 2018, 06:04:15 am »
The Tesla was keeping a very sensible distance from the car ahead, so a human driver would have been able to easily stop in time. This is a nice demonstration of why tailgating is dumb, not a demonstration of where machines have an edge.

Whoosh!

 

Offline wraper

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Re: EEVblog #1066 - Uber Autonomous Car Fatality - How?
« Reply #88 on: March 23, 2018, 06:08:43 am »
The Tesla was keeping a very sensible distance from the car ahead, so a human driver would have been able to easily stop in time. This is a nice demonstration of why tailgating is dumb, not a demonstration of where machines have an edge.
The fact is, it started braking before human would. So there was still quiet a distance once crash happened.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 06:20:07 am by wraper »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1066 - Uber Autonomous Car Fatality - How?
« Reply #89 on: March 23, 2018, 06:15:45 am »
The Tesla was keeping a very sensible distance from the car ahead, so a human driver would have been able to easily stop in time. This is a nice demonstration of why tailgating is dumb, not a demonstration of where machines have an edge.
The fact is, it started breaking before human would. So there was still quiet a distance once crash happened.

The fact is, the Tesla car beeped long before the accident even happened.

PS: The English word is "brake".
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 06:18:19 am by Fungus »
 

Offline wraper

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Re: EEVblog #1066 - Uber Autonomous Car Fatality - How?
« Reply #90 on: March 23, 2018, 06:15:50 am »
This is a nice demonstration of why tailgating is dumb, not a demonstration of where machines have an edge.
No, this is demonstration that people are stupid and the reason why autonomous cars would be a good thing. Because they don't act dumb unlike people.
 

Online orion242

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Re: EEVblog #1066 - Uber Autonomous Car Fatality - How?
« Reply #91 on: March 23, 2018, 06:24:28 am »
Because they don't act dumb unlike people.

Perhaps we should refer back to the video of this AV plowing over a ped again?
 

Online coppice

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Re: EEVblog #1066 - Uber Autonomous Car Fatality - How?
« Reply #92 on: March 23, 2018, 06:27:45 am »
The Tesla was keeping a very sensible distance from the car ahead, so a human driver would have been able to easily stop in time. This is a nice demonstration of why tailgating is dumb, not a demonstration of where machines have an edge.
The fact is, it started breaking before human would. So there was still quiet a distance once crash happened.
As soon as you see the car that gets hit over the top of the red one, you can see that the Tesla is closing rapidly on it. I think I would have backed off the power even before the beeps, although I probably wouldn't have been braking hard before the beeps. There's a strong luck element here, as the car that gets hit is quite tall. A lower car might not have been visible so early. It looks like the Tesla probably beeps as it picks up the doppler from the car in front of the one that gets hits. Again, there is a luck element in that being detected so early, as its a little to the left of the car that gets hit. If it had been a little further to the right the beeps would probably have been delayed a little.
 

Online coppice

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Re: EEVblog #1066 - Uber Autonomous Car Fatality - How?
« Reply #93 on: March 23, 2018, 06:33:47 am »
The Tesla was keeping a very sensible distance from the car ahead, so a human driver would have been able to easily stop in time. This is a nice demonstration of why tailgating is dumb, not a demonstration of where machines have an edge.
The fact is, it started breaking before human would. So there was still quiet a distance once crash happened.

The fact is, the Tesla car beeped long before the accident even happened.

PS: The English word is "brake".
The Tesla can't detect accidents. It simply detects speed. As soon as the red car moves to the right, the doppler system detected the much slower speed of the cars in front of it, and the alert occured. A human driving could have recognised the same thing.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1066 - Uber Autonomous Car Fatality - How?
« Reply #94 on: March 23, 2018, 06:38:25 am »
A human driving could have recognised the same thing.

I think you need to go and type "Russian dash cam" into youtube.

Come back in a few hours and see if you still have the same faith in human drivers.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 06:42:43 am by Fungus »
 

Offline sunnyhighway

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Re: EEVblog #1066 - Uber Autonomous Car Fatality - How?
« Reply #95 on: March 23, 2018, 06:44:28 am »
Protip: When using long range lights on the road, you actually see where you are driving. To think that a camera could even auto adjust that away in a recording seems bizarre imho.

You haven't worked with many cameras, have you?

Dynamic range is one of the greatest challenges and things don't get much more dynamic than night driving situations.
Most dash cameras do a pretty good job at night. This Uber one seems to have done a rather poor job.

Uber must have used a potato instead of a dashcam.

Below a footage decent dashcam at the same spot at night.

https://youtu.be/CRW0q8i3u6E?t=30
 
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Offline mdijkens

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Re: EEVblog #1066 - Uber Autonomous Car Fatality - How?
« Reply #96 on: March 23, 2018, 06:47:38 am »
really enlighting  :-+
 

Offline tpowell1830

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Re: EEVblog #1066 - Uber Autonomous Car Fatality - How?
« Reply #97 on: March 23, 2018, 06:48:14 am »
Quote

Uber must have used a potato instead of a dashcam.

Below a footage decent dashcam at the same spot at night.

https://youtu.be/CRW0q8i3u6E?t=30


This footage is obviously from a camera that someone is holding, therefore it is probably not a dashcam. Although I do agree that the video from the dashcam of the uber car sucked.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 06:49:45 am by tpowell1830 »
PEACE===>T
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: EEVblog #1066 - Uber Autonomous Car Fatality - How?
« Reply #98 on: March 23, 2018, 06:51:35 am »
If the lighting was more as that video suggests the incident would've been a non-incident with a human driver - and simple computer vision alone should've been adequate to prevent it without needing lidar or radar.

Mind you, if it were that well lit the human driver likely could have seen her during one of the several glances up prior to the incident and paid attention.

Here's hoping they release more footage and sensor data, because what we have is simply not good enough.
 

Offline NANDBlog

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Re: EEVblog #1066 - Uber Autonomous Car Fatality - How?
« Reply #99 on: March 23, 2018, 07:13:34 am »
I suspect that the Lidar system is much lower resolution then they let us believe. Which gets worse the faster the car goes. And it would need to not only detect the cyclist, but also heading, and speed. And while a cyclist is "big" but it is full with holes. I guess it cannot even detect a cycle reliably, because it is getting confusing info, some parts are 20m away, others are 200...
The Tesla was keeping a very sensible distance from the car ahead, so a human driver would have been able to easily stop in time. This is a nice demonstration of why tailgating is dumb, not a demonstration of where machines have an edge.
Tailgaters should be shot on site by the police. Also the people who start overtaking when they clearly have no idea what is ahead on the road. And the others who think "Now I'm going to teach you a lesson"

Since none of the Autonomous Cars are doing this, they are infinitely better drivers than most human. I suspect BMW is holding on to their self-driving software, because they need to program the car to drive like the usual * buying it..
 
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