EEVblog #1067 - Analog vs Digital Multimeters

[Fungus]

Nope some of us just don't run like this

At least he put an orange safety cone at each end of the work area. 

[vk6zgo]

Nope some of us just don't run like this

What is some halfwit resting his ladder on wheelie bins to do with the thousands of professional & technical people who safely used old style analog multimeters for  many decades prior to the existence of CAT ratings ?
They were used safely, because the people using them were very aware of the risks, & abided by extremely rigid safety procedures.

Nobody is saying:-" Hey Noobs! Just buy an old AVO meter & without any knowledge, hang it across 440volts* phase to phase!"
*That's  what it used to be in Western Australia.

Neither are we recommending people ignore CAT ratings, as they do add a layer of safety .
But it is a "layer of safety", not a guarantee of absolute safety!

All we are pointing out is that people did use such meters safely for years, because they knew what they were doing, as a counterpoint to the quite hysterical "Analog meters are dangerous--- use one, & you'll die!", style of posting.

There are many example of intrinsically quite dangerous devices being safely used by huge numbers of people by the religious application of safety rules.
An outstanding case is that of chainsaws, where the last safety modification was about 40 years ago.

Another is cars, where the primary safety protection is conforming with the Road Rules.
Modern cars with all sorts of gadgets still crash.

Not a device, but humans have not changed in hundreds of millenia, so they have no new inbuilt safety features.
Despite this lack of safety features, & the very dangerous nature of ocean beach swimming, millions of people swim safely every year, due to the application of safety rules.

[ferdieCX]

One reason they aren't around any more is there is no way you could get a CAT approval or rating for the things.

Supposedly, the Simpson 260 Series 9S is rated  600V CAT III
The price is $ 525

(2 Flukes and 2 VOMs at home)

[Fungus]

All we are pointing out is that people did use such meters safely for years

We agree that they used them, we disagree on "safely".

There are many example of intrinsically quite dangerous devices being safely used by huge numbers of people by the religious application of safety rules.
An outstanding case is that of chainsaws, where the last safety modification was about 40 years ago.

Being a lumberjack is one of the most dangerous jobs in the world. They'll stop using chainsaws in a heartbeat if somebody comes up with an alternative.

[Fungus]

One reason they aren't around any more is there is no way you could get a CAT approval or rating for the things.

I'm not sure that's an intrinsic property.

They made them that way for the same reason they made cars without seatbelts or headrests, ie. they felt that real manly men didn't need such things..

[bd139]

Real men didn't live long.

[vk6zgo]

One reason they aren't around any more is there is no way you could get a CAT approval or rating for the things.

I'm not sure that's an intrinsic property.

They made them that way for the same reason they made cars without seatbelts or headrests, ie. they felt that real manly men didn't need such things..

They assumed intelligent men & women could follow simple safety rules.
In the case of using multimeters that was the case, with drivers, much less so.

There is not the same exhilaration in using a meter incorrectly that there is in driving like an idiot.
Also," drink metering" was never popular.

[ahbushnell]

Hows this folks. A 13.5 Kilo volt analogue meter.

https://www.test-meter.co.uk/metrohm-llt13-8-13-8kv-ac-live-line-test-kit/

This is a small 10 kV electrostatic voltmeters.  I used in the past versions of this at 150 kV. 

Here is a 50 kV analog.  No batteries required. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sensitive-Research-Electrostatic-Voltmeter-model-ESH-50KV-/381384872490

[vk6zgo]

All we are pointing out is that people did use such meters safely for years

We agree that they used them, we disagree on "safely".

Funny  thing, I don't remember all the deaths from the use of such instruments.
The only reports which I've seen involve the unsafe use of DMMs.

There are many example of intrinsically quite dangerous devices being safely used by huge numbers of people by the religious application of safety rules.
An outstanding case is that of chainsaws, where the last safety modification was about 40 years ago.

Being a lumberjack is one of the most dangerous jobs in the world. They'll stop using chainsaws in a heartbeat if somebody comes up with an alternative.

I wasn't really referring to their use  in the timber industry, but their ubiquity in backyards the world over, often used by people without formal training.

Timber workers, on the other hand, are intensively trained, & adhere to strict safety rules.

Chainsaws are a quantum leap forward in safety, compared to some of the equipment used in the timber industry in the past, like razor sharp axes, two man crosscut saws, drag saws, & the horrific portable circular saw.

The real dangers in timber work have little to do with the equipment used, but much more to do with the trees themselves.

Trees don't always fall in the direction predicted, pieces break off & fly in unexpected ways, the  cut off bottom of the tree sometimes slides back over the stump, instead of falling cleanly, & (a Western Australian specialty), the felled tree may bump a big red gum tree, which will drop a huge dead limb from the best part of 100 metres up.

Looking up the specs for deaths in the Western Australian  Forest industry, there were only three accidental deaths ( from all causes) in the 20 years  to & including 2017, so it isn't that dangerous these days.
Looking back to the very early 1900s, it was more like a war zone!

Of course, there were many more people engaged in timber work back then,  so the bare numbers give a result which is a bit slanted.

[Electro Detective]

Nope some of us just don't run like this

He scores Double D!ckhead Points for not realizing there would have been less risk by setting up the double sided ladder normally on the ground,
and balancing himself on the top of the ladders platform, with the option to fall and land on the plastic bin if shtf 

which is a no no, but a better bet that what this Darwin Award Candidate is doing here   


and yes, I have done it that way in a pinch, double sided step ladders rock less when you're at the top, and holding on to the workpiece

and praying to your favorite afterlife host you don't get called in too early

Surprisingly he isn't wearing sandles and headband to really look the part...


He should find an easier location to stash his ice 

[G7PSK]

Hows this folks. A 13.5 Kilo volt analogue meter.

https://www.test-meter.co.uk/metrohm-llt13-8-13-8kv-ac-live-line-test-kit/

This is a small 10 kV electrostatic voltmeters.  I used in the past versions of this at 150 kV. 

Here is a 50 kV analog.  No batteries required. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sensitive-Research-Electrostatic-Voltmeter-model-ESH-
50KV-/381384872490

It is still an analogue instrument with a moving pointer that is for use on high energy circuits and is safe to use. There are people on this thread stating categorically that all analogue meters are unsafe for high power use, this is just not true.   

[tautech]

All we are pointing out is that people did use such meters safely for years

We agree that they used them, we disagree on "safely".

There are many example of intrinsically quite dangerous devices being safely used by huge numbers of people by the religious application of safety rules.
An outstanding case is that of chainsaws, where the last safety modification was about 40 years ago.

Being a lumberjack is one of the most dangerous jobs in the world. They'll stop using chainsaws in a heartbeat if somebody comes up with an alternative.

Have you really ever used one ?
For 'real' work and not just pruning fruit trees ?

I've worked in and around the industry for 4 decades and the guys I've know that got killed or injured took stupid risks just like using non-genuine AVO leads for HV measurements.

These days what happens in the 'bush' is all $ driven and feller/bunchers have taken on most of the felling and log-making tasks as they're more productive as well as safer. Of the many crosscutters I have known few are still on a saw as mechanization has taken their jobs and the best worked most of their lives with suffering only minor injuries, no more than anybody else in a physical job. All miss the satisfaction of a days work on a saw !


Back on topic, any good brand Analog or DMM is only as safe as the operator using it.....knowing it's capabilities and their own ! There's NO foolproof equipment. Period.
My first was one my dad made from a 'University' kit in the '40's, 1000VDC and AC rated but the probes left a lot to be desired as I found out at ~13 in the 70's with a 700V AC shock from a 320VDC  HV PSU I was building.

In support of vk6zgo I have no reservation in using my AVO 8 Mk5 for any HV work to the limit of its capabilities and have done so many times.  (with only genuine AVO leads)

[xani]

There are many example of intrinsically quite dangerous devices being safely used by huge numbers of people by the religious application of safety rules.
An outstanding case is that of chainsaws, where the last safety modification was about 40 years ago.

In that comparision axe would be an analog meter while chainsaw would be digital...

I doubt you will find many lumberjacks arguing that they would rather waste time with axe

Another is cars, where the primary safety protection is conforming with the Road Rules.
Modern cars with all sorts of gadgets still crash.

Yes but modern cars would leave you wounded instead of dead, thanks to crumple zones, seat belts and airbags, or will prevent at least some accidents altogether thanks to better brakes, ABS, and various other safety systems

Not a device, but humans have not changed in hundreds of millenia, so they have no new inbuilt safety features.
Despite this lack of safety features, & the very dangerous nature of ocean beach swimming, millions of people swim safely every year, due to the application of safety rules.

Sure but beaches and pools still hire lifeguards.

Your attitude is basically "well, whoever died is probably incompetent, just let darwin sort it out"

[oldway]

@tautech:

n support of vk6zgo I have no reservation in using my AVO 8 Mk5 for any HV work to the limit of its capabilities and have done so many times.  (with only genuine AVO leads)

The discussion is not about high voltage, but about using an analog multimeter to make measurements on high energy circuits.

I posted on page 1:

Analog multimeters are not safe at all, never use them on high energy circuits.....

High energy, this means for exemple as well 400Vac protected by 630A fuse, 550Vdc of armature of a 150HP dc motor, 2KV ac busbar on power distribution systems, 600V dc of batteries of industrial No-Break, and so on....

I doubt that your kind of "HV works" as hobbyest has somethingto do with high energy circuits.

Even Fluke write the same advice for theyr hight voltage probes: DO NOT use this probe to measure high voltages on power distribution systems.

http://en-us.fluke.com/products/all-accessories/fluke-80k-40.html

[tzok]

Again - this has nothing to do with them being analog... it is just because most of them come from pre-CAT rating era. They are not as safe as modern CAT rated DMM (or maybe rather I should write more unsafe), not because they are analog, but because of their construction.

Why should magneto-electric indicator be less safe than LCD or OLED display? This is just a kind of display.

[oldway]

Again - this has nothing to do with them being analog... it is just because most of them come from pre-CAT rating era. They are not as safe as modern CAT rated DMM (or maybe rather I should write more unsafe), not because they are analog, but because of their construction.

Why should magneto-electric indicator be less safe than LCD or OLED display? This is just a kind of display.

It doesn't matter why analog multimeters are unsafe and even very dangerous when used in high energy circuit, they are, you recognize it....

DO NOT use an analog multimeter in high energy circuit, that's the only safety advice possible.

[tzok]

I just simply can't agree with such statement, it is not logical. There is a lot of old DMMs which are equally unsafe, and there is a few modern analog multimeters, which meet CAT ratings. It's like you'd state "don't drive 2-stroke cars - they're dangerous". The fact of having 2-stroke engine doesn't make the car dangerous.

[coppice]

I just simply can't agree with such statement, it is not logical. There is a lot of old DMMs which are equally unsafe, and there is a few modern analog multimeters, which meet CAT ratings. It's like you'd state "don't drive 2-stroke cars - they're dangerous". The fact of having 2-stroke engine doesn't make the car dangerous.

Interesting. I haven't seen a new design of professional (i.e. not the $5 kind) analogue multimeter for decades. Who makes them?

[G7PSK]

I dont think any one is talking about five dollar meters of any type. As for not using analogue meters on high energy circuits, what do you think the linesman meter is for if not high energy grid lines, they are produced as analogue meters fact is when I went looking I did not find a digital one.

I think it is a case of horses for courses.

[bd139]

Thats because linesmen don't use multimeters, analogue or otherwise. They have fuck off great big 6-12 foot poles which capacitively or magnetically couple to the DUT with a sampling head.  There's a red light and a green light on the stick that is 3 feet away from the hot end that says if there is an AC current present and that's it. And that's just to confirm that the line is up or down only before they assume the safety interlock is correct.

Most of the monitoring is done remotely via inductors which are coupled to the power lines magnetically and then relayed via radio.

The few occasions they do need to measure they have digital meters (look at Seaward's product line) particularly KD1E and Halo Hooks. They don't go up much past 22KV. Look for digital phasing sticks as well, which are pretty cool. These aren't routinely used by linesmen because they are quite hazardous.

Incidentally our DC sparkies who deal with our generators, racks, cooling systems don't use any meters on the three phase bus bars. All the monitoring is remote. They only use DMMs after phase pick off after breakers (like they are supposed to).

[qno]

Hi all,

I am missing one big advantage of the analog multimeter.
It injects a lot less noise into sensitive circuits.

[bd139]

Yes. Bob Pease wrote about that in Troubleshooting Analogue Circuits. Also RF immunity is somewhat better. Which is why I use one for peaking RF amplifiers.

[ferdieCX]

Interesting. I haven't seen a new design of professional (i.e. not the $5 kind) analogue multimeter for decades. Who makes them?

There are at least two: Simpson 260 Series 9S (see picture up in this same page)
                                   Metrix MX1, both are rated 600 V CAT III

[oldway]

Interesting. I haven't seen a new design of professional (i.e. not the $5 kind) analogue multimeter for decades. Who makes them?

There are at least two: Simpson 260 Series 9S (see picture up in this same page)
                                   Metrix MX1, both are rated 600 V CAT III

Who still buys that? The metrix MX1 cost 250 bucks and the Simpson more than 500 bucks ..... The price of one or two Brymen BM869 ... !!!

There is no match.....

How many of these 2 analog multimeters exist on the market? And how many other new and old analog multimeters that have no cat classification and no protection at all ?

For sure, these two multimeters do not represent one thousandth of all analog multimeters old and new still existing today.

[ferdieCX]

Who still buys that? The metrix MX1 cost 250 bucks and the Simpson more than 500 bucks ..... The price of one or two Brymen BM869 ... !!!

There is no match.....

How many of these 2 analog multimeters exist on the market? And how many other new and old analog multimeters that have no cat classification and no protection at all ?

For sure, these two multimeters do not represent one thousandth of all analog multimeters old and new still existing today.

I am pretty sure, that most VOMs existing and being used in the world have not CAT classification.
Both of mine haven't it (Simpson 260-7M and Sanwa U-50D) I mostly use a Fluke 179 and sometimes a 87V.

I just wanted to point that, if for some reason you need or just want to use a 600 V CAT III VOM, you can buy it.
If it makes sense, that's another thing. I guess, that probably someone working in high RF environment would use them.