Author Topic: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report  (Read 4653 times)

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Offline james_s

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #75 on: June 06, 2018, 10:39:48 am »
Dash cams are becoming increasingly appealing. Obviously if someone pulls in front of you that is a different case than hitting someone you are already following behind.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #76 on: June 06, 2018, 12:09:33 pm »
Dash cams certainly would help make it very clear what actually happened.

If you did have someone jump in front of you, find the centre of the lane and then brake suddenly, a dash cam will show there was not enough time to re-establish a safe following distance.

Now there is a question....  How long is a reasonable time to drop back to a safe distance when someone cuts in front?  Too short and you would have to jump on the brakes which could cause an accident.  Too long and you're leaving yourself open.  Either way, the traffic behind you won't like your caution if you make it too obvious.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #77 on: June 11, 2018, 02:40:32 am »
If they still had loads of false object detections, enabling it may have caused loads of rear end collisions as well. 
This.  Not only do pedestrians need to be predictable, but EVERYTHING needs to be predictable to eliminate collisions. 
Utter nonsense. You have to be prepared for the driver in front of you braking for apparently no good reason at all times. Because of that in most countries you are at fault when you drive your car into the rear of the car in front of you: you can't see what the driver in front of you is seeing.

I agree you need to be prepared for the driver ahead of you to brake.  But the thing being missed is that is actually quite likely and therefore predictable and more importantly you don't expect them to reach zero speed instantly.  The car ahead didn't drop a brick wall that you have to avoid hitting.  A "safe following distance" is such that you can react to the predictable situations such as the car ahead braking.  They have a stopping distance similar as you, so what you are reacting to is their action of braking.  This is predictably something a car does and in this case if you have "a safe following distance" you both brake and you both decelerate together and don't collide.  "A safe following distance" is different if the car ahead of you is a Lamborghini and you are in a Suburban, but these are things you can work out on the fly and don't violate the rules.  A semi-truck won't magically have the stopping distance of the Lamborghini. .

A story. Once, I was driving in the third lane out of a 4 lane carriageway - just before it splits into 2+2 for a junction. Ahead of me was a White Van. I was following it leaving a safe distance, when...


...the van engine seized. Almighty cloud of blue smoke from the back end of the van. A mixture of diesel, rubber, and bits of engine (but not lubricating oil. Clearly no lubricating oil). The thing just stopped in the middle of the road with traffic passing either side.

I didn't hit it - I had left plenty of room to stop in an emergency. I always do now. Always. Even if it annoys the heck out of the Perfect Drivers.

Three true stories...

My first car was, um, interesting. If you coasted up to a roundabout and then put your foot down to accelerate into the gap in traffic - it would drop out of gear leaving you stranded. Oh the joys of a car where the automatic gearbox transmission oil is shared with the dirty engine oil :(

My second car was also interesting, but in a nicer way. Except when pulling back in after overtaking on the A11 in Thetford forest - the nearside wheel fell off and buried itself in the hedge (fortunately!). I got the RAC out, and we decided there was no damage to the car, so I simply took one nut off each of the other wheels and bolted the wheel back on.

Or, when travelling 2s behind another car at 50mph, a female deer decided to run across in that gap.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 02:44:07 am by tggzzz »
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Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #78 on: June 11, 2018, 03:38:52 pm »
Or, when travelling 2s behind another car at 50mph, a female deer decided to run across in that gap.

 

Online sibeen

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #79 on: June 22, 2018, 10:17:58 pm »
Another twist in the tale. The Grauniad is reporting that the driver was watching TV when the accident occurred.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/22/driver-was-streaming-the-voice-when-uber-self-driving-car-crashed-say-police

 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #80 on: June 22, 2018, 10:47:34 pm »
Annnd, another proof that autopilots just can't autopilot: if the human fails, the autopilot fails.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #81 on: June 22, 2018, 11:26:30 pm »
Another twist in the tale. The Grauniad is reporting that the driver was watching TV when the accident occurred.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/22/driver-was-streaming-the-voice-when-uber-self-driving-car-crashed-say-police

This coming from the same people who went out of their way to defend Uber and released dashcam footage of extraordinarily low quality to 'prove' that nothing could have been done.

I'll wait for the NTSB.
 

Offline G7PSK

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #82 on: June 23, 2018, 12:00:35 am »
Looks like either the police and Uber have decided to scapegoat the driver, or the police and Uber tried to justify the collision in the first instant and now have to back pedal due to the NTSB investigation's findings.
 

Offline chris_leyson

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #83 on: June 23, 2018, 01:04:21 am »
A police report released Thursday would seem to imply that the driver was looking at her mobile phone and only looked up 0.5s before the crash. Wouldn't be surprised if the driver faces charges of vehicle manslaughter. It's illegal in the UK to drive whilst using a mobile phone and it's probably illegal in a lot of other countries. Probably illegal in the state of Arizona as well, but people still do it.
https://eu.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe-breaking/2018/06/21/uber-self-driving-car-crash-tempe-police-elaine-herzberg/724344002/
« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 01:15:44 am by chris_leyson »
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #84 on: June 23, 2018, 02:51:53 am »
A police report released Thursday would seem to imply that the driver was looking at her mobile phone and only looked up 0.5s before the crash. Wouldn't be surprised if the driver faces charges of vehicle manslaughter. It's illegal in the UK to drive whilst using a mobile phone and it's probably illegal in a lot of other countries. Probably illegal in the state of Arizona as well, but people still do it.
https://eu.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe-breaking/2018/06/21/uber-self-driving-car-crash-tempe-police-elaine-herzberg/724344002/

Well colour me surprised. Who on earth would have ever conceived something like that would happen? Certainly not a software engineer, since they infamously respond to any problem with a car by turning it off and expecting it to have disappeared when they turn it back on.

There are two "safe" and one "dangerous" designs.

Safe: no automation, driver knows they are in control
Safe: full automation, driver can "switch off" and relax
Dangerous: partial automation with shared responsibility and quick responses required. If the driver can't relax, why have the automation in the first place.

Military maxim: what is everybodys' responsibility is nobodyd' responsibility.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Gliding aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline Zzyzx

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #85 on: June 23, 2018, 07:56:54 pm »
A police report released Thursday would seem to imply that the driver was looking at her mobile phone and only looked up 0.5s before the crash. Wouldn't be surprised if the driver faces charges of vehicle manslaughter. It's illegal in the UK to drive whilst using a mobile phone and it's probably illegal in a lot of other countries. Probably illegal in the state of Arizona as well, but people still do it.
https://eu.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe-breaking/2018/06/21/uber-self-driving-car-crash-tempe-police-elaine-herzberg/724344002/
For those particularly interested, here's the police report: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4551043-18-32694-Redacted-Report.html

It even mentions that if the driver had paid attention, she would've been able to stop 42.61 feet before the accident. It also says her eyes were off the road for 6 minutes and 47.2 seconds total of 21 minutes and 48 second drive, or about 3.67 of 11.8 total miles.

I do think, though, that it's a bit silly to put humans in a task like this, though. I'm not sure how you expect someone to just watch the road go by for hours upon hours day after day. Not that I'm trying to downplay the driver's responsibility, but I think we still need to focus more on Uber's responsibility, especially getting rid of the second person in the vehicle and disabling emergency breaking without even giving any sort of notification.
 

Offline glarsson

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #86 on: June 24, 2018, 03:21:27 am »
It even mentions that if the driver had paid attention, she would've been able to stop 42.61 feet before the accident.
How did they arrive at that exact number? Amazing precision.  |O
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #87 on: June 24, 2018, 03:28:26 am »
It even mentions that if the driver had paid attention, she would've been able to stop 42.61 feet before the accident. It also says her eyes were off the road for 6 minutes and 47.2 seconds total of 21 minutes and 48 second drive, or about 3.67 of 11.8 total miles.

How can they know that?
 

Offline Bud

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #88 on: June 24, 2018, 03:37:01 am »
By checking the car interior video, which supposedly was better quality than the dodgy one from the dash camera  they released.
 
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Offline coppice

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #89 on: June 24, 2018, 03:37:34 am »
A police report released Thursday would seem to imply that the driver was looking at her mobile phone and only looked up 0.5s before the crash. Wouldn't be surprised if the driver faces charges of vehicle manslaughter. It's illegal in the UK to drive whilst using a mobile phone and it's probably illegal in a lot of other countries. Probably illegal in the state of Arizona as well, but people still do it.
https://eu.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe-breaking/2018/06/21/uber-self-driving-car-crash-tempe-police-elaine-herzberg/724344002/
She wasn't driving a conventional car under conventional licence conditions. I wonder how well they tied down legal responsibilities and liabilities when they issued the special licences to operate partially tested autonomous cars on the Pheonix roads?
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #90 on: June 24, 2018, 04:03:41 am »
Not very clever on her part, then, I'd guess she knew she was being recorded, didn't she?
 

Offline IanMacdonald

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #91 on: June 24, 2018, 04:56:05 am »
It's illegal in the UK to drive whilst using a mobile phone

Only if the phone is handheld. Although any driver can be prosecuted for an instance of bad driving which is ostensibly not simple human error but due to engaging in some kind of distraction at the wheel.

https://www.gov.uk/using-mobile-phones-when-driving-the-law
 

Offline james_s

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #92 on: June 24, 2018, 06:22:05 am »
It's illegal in the UK to drive whilst using a mobile phone

Only if the phone is handheld. Although any driver can be prosecuted for an instance of bad driving which is ostensibly not simple human error but due to engaging in some kind of distraction at the wheel.

https://www.gov.uk/using-mobile-phones-when-driving-the-law

The same is true in the US, despite numerous studies showing that it's the conversation that is distracting, not the act of holding onto the phone.

Personally I don't understand why it's so hard to just put the phone away while driving. It wasn't that long ago that the phone was attached to the wall at home and nobody expected everyone to be immediately reachable at all times.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #93 on: June 24, 2018, 05:13:16 pm »
Personally I don't understand why it's so hard to just put the phone away while driving. It wasn't that long ago that the phone was attached to the wall at home and nobody expected everyone to be immediately reachable at all times.

Times change - and so do expectations.

The daughter of a friend has her world so tied up with instant communication that it comes back to bite her all too often.  Whenever others want to communicate with her she can't get "time off".  If she doesn't respond within the expected time frame, she gets harangued for ignoring them.

I hate to say it, but she made that rod for her own back.

I don't run that way.  Not in the slightest.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #94 on: June 24, 2018, 06:11:20 pm »
The same is true in the US, despite numerous studies showing that it's the conversation that is distracting, not the act of holding onto the phone.

You need to consider how things fail, not just how they work.

It is difficult to safely change gear with a phone in one hand.
It is difficult to take quick avoiding action with only one hand on the wheel.
Driving conditions in the US are very different to those in Europe.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Gliding aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #95 on: June 24, 2018, 06:14:21 pm »
The same is true in the US, despite numerous studies showing that it's the conversation that is distracting, not the act of holding onto the phone.
You need to consider how things fail, not just how they work.

It is difficult to safely change gear with a phone in one hand.

Americans don't change gears.

(and (b), nor do Europeans in emergency situations)

It is difficult to take quick avoiding action with only one hand on the wheel.

It doesn't stop them from stomping on the double-wide brake pedal though.

Driving conditions in the US are very different to those in Europe.

So are the cars.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 06:17:13 pm by Fungus »
 


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