Seems a bit expensive from the Aussie distrubtor Mektronics, at their price not sure why you wouldn't just buy the JBC?
Pace ADS200 Station 230 VAC with Instant SetBack Tool Stand 8007-0581
$542.86ex
JBC CD-B Solder Station with Standard Handpiece PLUS ROLL OF MULTICORE SOLDER MC334
SKU: JBC-CD-2BE
$547.00ex
Dave, Personally you really fucked up this review, low cost for bloody Australian, For Retardistan yes, Not Shitsville. Next time look at Australia before fuxking up the cost of these unit. PACE fucked up have to log on for the price. Piss Poor review
All LEDs in the display constantly flashing when you're not using it? How annoying is that? :palm:
Dave, Personally you really fucked up this review, low cost for bloody Australian, For Retardistan yes, Not Shitsville. Next time look at Australia before fuxking up the cost of these unit. PACE fucked up have to log on for the price. Piss Poor review
Now I have really heard it. That is officially called Marketing Wank. Who care about the country you live in, maybe you should move to the country you market for (Retardistan)
Quote from: EEVblog on Today at 04:11:45 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=123290.msg1683911#msg1683911)Australia is less than 10% of my audience, I always give prices in US dollars.
You aren't capable of figuring out for yourself if the iron is good value in your own country?
What's wrong with the review apart from not mentioning local prices? What about the 150+ other countries? Is it a crap review because I didn't mention them too?
All LEDs in the display constantly flashing when you're not using it? How annoying is that? :palm:
A bit. I wold have preferred that the temp simply go down and the display remains as normal.
Seems a bit expensive from the Aussie distrubtor Mektronics, at their price not sure why you wouldn't just buy the JBC?
Pace ADS200 Station 230 VAC with Instant SetBack Tool Stand 8007-0581
$542.86ex
JBC CD-B Solder Station with Standard Handpiece PLUS ROLL OF MULTICORE SOLDER MC334
SKU: JBC-CD-2BE
$547.00ex
I just got mine today, really impressed with how solidly constructed they are. The iron feels great and the tip to work is perfect. I havn't set them up in place yet but I did some practice flow soldering movements and the iron has got a balanced feel in my hand. I think the length is just right.
Between that and the temperature jumping around, they've totally failed in the firmware for this.
Marketing Wank is a term used by Dave on many occasions. An honest review would be PACE, cheap in US bullshit price in Australia. I have been watching Dave since episode 250 there abouts and slowly over time Dave is no longer the honest reviewer he was at the beginning. He used to provide review for Australia and other places now Marketing has taken him to be selective.
Here is the killer. The JBC CD 2BE is only $549 AUD ex GST, no where near the markup of the Pace. In this case Dave has really been playing Pocket Billiards when it comes to review and should be exposed for such outright crap.
Marketing Wank is a term used by Dave on many occasions. An honest review would be PACE, cheap in US bullshit price in Australia.
I have been watching Dave since episode 250 there abouts and slowly over time Dave is no longer the honest reviewer he was at the beginning. He used to provide review for Australia and other places now Marketing has taken him to be selective.
Here is the killer. The JBC CD 2BE is only $549 AUD ex GST, no where near the markup of the Pace.
In this case Dave has really been playing Pocket Billiards when it comes to review and should be exposed for such outright crap.
Quote from: Brumby on Today at 06:06:56 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=123290.msg1684208#msg1684208)>Quote from: EEVblog on Today at 04:11:45 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=123290.msg1683911#msg1683911)Australia is less than 10% of my audience, I always give prices in US dollars.
You aren't capable of figuring out for yourself if the iron is good value in your own country?
What's wrong with the review apart from not mentioning local prices? What about the 150+ other countries? Is it a crap review because I didn't mention them too?
What is the point in that advantage if you can't see JBC display in the first place because it is badly angled and all it does it reflects the shack lights above it into your eyes.
It would cost you just a couple of minutes to give some ballpark prices for some areas like north America, Europe and Australia.Dave, Personally you really fucked up this review, low cost for bloody Australian, For Retardistan yes, Not Shitsville. Next time look at Australia before fuxking up the cost of these unit. PACE fucked up have to log on for the price. Piss Poor review
Australia is less than 10% of my audience, I always give prices in US dollars.
You aren't capable of figuring out for yourself if the iron is good value in your own country?
What's wrong with the review apart from not mentioning local prices? What about the 150+ other countries? Is it a crap review because I didn't mention them too?
The whole purpose of these kind of videos is to give people a good sense what is around for what price and how it performs.
Otherwise it's kind of a useless video (please don't come with the "than don't watch it" argument)
If a significant junk of that video is about comparing it to a similar product and the argument "price" is being used?The whole purpose of these kind of videos is to give people a good sense what is around for what price and how it performs.
Otherwise it's kind of a useless video (please don't come with the "than don't watch it" argument)
It makes a 40 minute review "kinda useless"? Really? ::)
If a significant junk of that video is about comparing it to a similar product and the argument "price" is being used?The whole purpose of these kind of videos is to give people a good sense what is around for what price and how it performs.
Otherwise it's kind of a useless video (please don't come with the "than don't watch it" argument)
It makes a 40 minute review "kinda useless"? Really? ::)
Yes.
Price is a main factor in a fair objective comparison.
In my opinion a "journalist" has at least the responsibility to do some basic research around to give the reader/viewer a general idea.
If you would write/show a review for the local community I can understand you don't look much further.
But since this is an international YouTube channel, it's a different story.
If selling price are so much different in big parts of the world, it's at least important to mention.
I don't have any issue cutting some slack, no worries.If a significant junk of that video is about comparing it to a similar product and the argument "price" is being used?The whole purpose of these kind of videos is to give people a good sense what is around for what price and how it performs.
Otherwise it's kind of a useless video (please don't come with the "than don't watch it" argument)
It makes a 40 minute review "kinda useless"? Really? ::)
Yes.
Price is a main factor in a fair objective comparison.
In my opinion a "journalist" has at least the responsibility to do some basic research around to give the reader/viewer a general idea.
If you would write/show a review for the local community I can understand you don't look much further.
But since this is an international YouTube channel, it's a different story.
If selling price are so much different in big parts of the world, it's at least important to mention.
The USD price is in the very first line of the video description. Anyone can easily get a ballpark idea of the cost in their country based on this before they even watching a single minute of the video. My videos cater to a technical audience who know very well pricing markups of products in their own country and how they apply to.
Anyone in Australia for example with any clue at all knows about the "Australia Tax", and "well, it likely ain't going to be US$220 equivalent here, I'd better go spend a minute checking local prices before I spend 40 minute watching this review video".
Look, I'm not denying the value of having region prices in review videos, and I do do this occasionally, but sometimes I either forget, or I think it's more trouble than it's worth. e.g. in the pocket multimeter shootout.
In this video, we now have two irons, should I go find the price of both of them in all regions? What if I had three irons? Four?
What about imports or grey market sellers on ebay?
I'll try and do better next time, ok?
Look, let me tell you about the life a Youtuber. We get a lot of feedback, a metric shit ton of feedback. A good lot of it complaining about something. I have countless time done review videos with region pricing in them, and even then I still get people complaining that I didn't mention Amazon, or ebay, or this seller or that seller, or this special etc and "why didn't you put that in the video". Countless time. I know, ok, please cut me some slack.
This just in: Certain countries and areas have obnoxious pricing problems. Dave isn't responsible for this. Do your own research, his video is just a small part of your research.Who is talking about responsibility?
You have to agree with the fact that if a product isn't worth buying (or a lot of hassle) in a significant part of the world (for the most of your readers/viewers obviously) it also changes the final verdict of the product.
Or it deserves a side note at least
So in the end the conclusion if "it's a killer or not" is also entirely different.
I think it was pretty obvious what I meant, and that doesn't include "a whole global pricing assessment" ?You have to agree with the fact that if a product isn't worth buying (or a lot of hassle) in a significant part of the world (for the most of your readers/viewers obviously) it also changes the final verdict of the product.
Or it deserves a side note at least
So, what you are saying is that Dave needs to do a global pricing assessment and include that in product reviews?
Do you realise how impractical that would be?
More than fair enough.So in the end the conclusion if "it's a killer or not" is also entirely different.
No, it's not.
The only reason I compared two different priced units is because
1) It provides a benchmark (it's the only direct heat iron I have)
and
2) There is a massive thread on the forum asking if this is a "JBC killer" or not.
The answer is (IMO and hence that's all that matters for my videos) is that regardless of price, it's not a JBC killer. "JBC killer" implies similar or better performance, and it clearly doesn't have it. It's simply a cheaper direct heat iron, and like I said in the video, it's better to compare to a similarly priced iron (which I don't have). So basically the comparison ends there, there is no point me going into pricing in different regions for the two units and try and provide some region based "bang-per-buck".
You might have wanted that, and that's fine, but that's not the video I was making.
Now, if I did one with two similar priced units, I'd likely go into detail on region pricing. I just didn't see the point in this video.
Dave specifically mentioned a low cost iron in competition with JBC. Now my opinion is that as an Australia it is total Bullshit. end of story.
Dave gets all this free gear hoarding it for the himself and people like myself who marries a Disabled person before sweeping law make it impossible for us to ever earn enough to buy such stuff, and tell the audience including Australian it is cheap.
Yes I hold a grudge
So simply this is my Australian Response and irrespective I call it out as Bullshit, expensive. For Dave and his majority market, well it is cheap.
More than fair enough.
I just don't really think that came across in the video, because than you wouldn't even mention the price but only focus purely on the quality.
Dave gets all this free gear hoarding it for the himself
That's being a bit judgemental, don't you think?Dave gets all this free gear hoarding it for the himself
And there's the crux of the issue: You're jealous and angry that he gets given review samples and you don't.
When pushing the tip in a wet sponge it's surface temperature will in theory drop to 100°C: the temperature of boiling water. While it looks impressive that the temperature shown stays at 350, this actually proves that the temperature doesn't reflect the temperature of the business end very well.Several previous Pace stations have a setting with the express purpose of not changing the display when the temperature changes! See the section "Temperature Display Impedance (TDI) Mode" in the ST45 manual: https://uk.rs-online.com/webdocs/0032/0900766b800323e3.pdf
IIRC The JBC dropped quite a lot more (to below 200) when you tested it a while ago. So it seems like JBC measures temperature at the front of the tip, and Pace more to the back.
Makes sense, that would also explain why the reading suddenly stops jumping around like crazy once it reaches the set temperature.When pushing the tip in a wet sponge it's surface temperature will in theory drop to 100°C: the temperature of boiling water. While it looks impressive that the temperature shown stays at 350, this actually proves that the temperature doesn't reflect the temperature of the business end very well.Several previous Pace stations have a setting with the express purpose of not changing the display when the temperature changes! See the section "Temperature Display Impedance (TDI) Mode" in the ST45 manual: https://uk.rs-online.com/webdocs/0032/0900766b800323e3.pdf
IIRC The JBC dropped quite a lot more (to below 200) when you tested it a while ago. So it seems like JBC measures temperature at the front of the tip, and Pace more to the back.
On the ST45 it can be disabled, but this setting does not appear on the ADS200, which makes me suspicious.
Love the heavy metal construction of this unit, including the stand. It just oozes quality compared to the others.It's so funny and interesting how personal taste can differ.
Look of the Aluminium (we spell it "Aluminum"): We have been using these custom (not off the shelf) aluminum chassis extrusions since the 90’s. Yeah, old school. Some people think it’s great, some sexy (Dave does!!!) and others think it is ugly and antiquated (I tend to lean towards the last one). But creating a modern and sexy new case would have added at least 3-4 months for tooling, required us to redesign the pcb and a host of other issues. In the end, time-to-market concerns and the fact that the ulta-sturdy case is practically invulnerable to burns, 3 foot drops onto a cement floor and other customer abuse, led us to stay with the proven and rugged old-school extrusions.Interesting, I have worked for several companies using exactly the same basic aluminium chassis.
Dave, Personally you really fucked up this review, low cost for bloody Australian, For Retardistan yes, Not Shitsville. Next time look at Australia before fuxking up the cost of these unit. PACE fucked up have to log on for the price. Piss Poor review
ADS200 Display: We agree that there is no reason for the wacky screen anomalies and overshoot flashes when the tip initially heats up. Also, I’ve always felt the flashing of the display/LED during SetBack was really intrusive, but no customer ever directly complained about it on our previous stations! But now we’re in the age of social media, this type of feedback flows freely, and we get it! I believe these things can be resolved via firmware update, but give us some time to get it together.
It's so funny and interesting how personal taste can differ.
I had the complete opposite feeling when I saw it.
Bodged together with of the shelve parts.
Even the electronics don't look in-house developed.
Interesting, I have worked for several companies using exactly the same basic aluminium chassis.
Also I have seen it around quite a bit by others.
My preference is for a single big twisty knob to set the temperature. Nothing is as fast as that. A rotary encoder with a big aluminum knob... (suggestion for the Pace guys!) However, the up/down buttons are of course acceptable, since there are pre-sets that serve most of the purpose that the twisty knob would (arguably, not as intuitive though).
Look of the Aluminium (we spell it "Aluminum"): We have been using these custom (not off the shelf) aluminum chassis extrusions since the 90’s. Yeah, old school. Some people think it’s great, some sexy (Dave does!!!) and others think it is ugly and antiquated (I tend to lean towards the last one). But creating a modern and sexy new case would have added at least 3-4 months for tooling, required us to redesign the pcb and a host of other issues. In the end, time-to-market concerns and the fact that the ulta-sturdy case is practically invulnerable to burns, 3 foot drops onto a cement floor and other customer abuse, led us to stay with the proven and rugged old-school extrusions.
“Crappy” User Interface?: I don’t agree. Yes, the display is old-school and basic, but we’re going for utter simplicity here. Just push the Red “UP” button to raise the temp, or Blue “Down” button to decrease the temp. Or use the pre-sets. Try to change the temperature with an FX-951 like that and you’ll get a cryptic set of codes that require you to consult the manual (Rossmann describes it as an "80's alarm clock interface"). The ADS200 unit has much more capability built in if you wish to delve into the set-up mode. But our goal was for a customer to open the box, plug in all in, and be up and running, without a manual, within 2 minutes. Done!
Looks like a pretty decent station, but it's nearly 400$ CAD for the kit with the setback stand. That's similar in price to a Hakko FX951 here. I like the enclosure as well, but I think it might be a bit hard to clean. (yes, I like clean gear).
Dave gets all this free gear hoarding it for the himselfAnd there's the crux of the issue: You're jealous and angry that he gets given review samples and you don't.
The video started comparing 2 products of similar competition based on price mostly.
If you are really into statistics and as an engineer you should be! 10% is higher that the population density of the US compared to Australia. So effectively more people in Australia based on population density. That was my second and more damning negativity of your review and overall attitude to the people that live in the same country is not well represented and never will according to your 10% remark. So my comment is very well justified.
This is danger of simply jumping on a camera and talking. That you will need to live with. So many time you videos have text over it because you jump to conclusions and that is fine as long as you are happy to accept the negativity as well.
Sometime you put out good stuff, but in my opinion personally is getting worse, but I have come to accept that you are there to make some people laugh at your moderate Australian accent. Just accept that Australians are people and if you do not represent them accurately then you will cop some flack and that is what I am doing. This is the first time I have majorly criticised you in this manner, most of the time I have just been sitting on the sidelines or switching off. But for some strange reason I couldn't ignore this, MEH.
High $542 price in Australia: Distributor mark-ups are very complicated, especially in Australia and other foreign countries. Mektronics sells the standard ADS200 for $542 Australian dollars which is equivalent to about US$397. Mektronics must ship from US to Australia, an extremely expensive endeavor probably costing thousands. Using the cheapest UPS shipping setting on our website will cost you US$250 for one ADS unit! Plus, add on duty, taxes, Customs etc and voila’! After all is said and done, it wouldn't surprise me if Mektronics made only 20-25% margin on that $542 price. I really don't see it as price gouging. Note that JBC products may not be as expensive to ship since JBC manufactures & ships out of Spain. It’s also possible that Mektronics is getting a special deal or much better discount pricing from JBC. By the way, in Brazil the mark-up is almost 3 times the list price in the US because of taxes and duties!
My preference is for a single big twisty knob to set the temperature. Nothing is as fast as that. A rotary encoder with a big aluminum knob... (suggestion for the Pace guys!) However, the up/down buttons are of course acceptable, since there are pre-sets that serve most of the purpose that the twisty knob would (arguably, not as intuitive though).
We've sold several soldering stations with knobs and the problem is ... they don't sell! I like them a lot too. We only have 2 legacy soldering stations that we sell with a control knob, called the ST-25, and that one is only there because the US Military buy a couple hundred a year. The other pone is called the ST 30, and that one will be discontinued soon ... due to lack of sales. Everyone seems to want digital!
Aaron
Dave, I think you've been more than generous with your time trying to straighten out somebody's knickers - but I just see it as another example of the crap anyone gets when they publish anything, but especially an opinion piece on the internet.
Yeah, I should probably just stop doing that. I'm probably the only Youtuber dumb enough to spend time trying to correct peoples misconceptions about aspects of my videos one a one-on-one basis. It does take a lot of time.
I simply meant just use a rotary encoder instead of up/down buttons to set the temperature. That would make the user interface even simpler (replace 2 buttons or 3 buttons with 1 knob). It is tedious to repeatedly stab buttons to move the temperature up and down, compared to twisting a knob... -- This is for the suggestion box for future ideas, more than a criticism of the product under discussion!
Finally you have learnt, the first rule of trolls is to ignore them, bating them will only cause grief to yourself.
BTW, the JBC is not the same price as the Pace here in Oz, it's only special, heavily discounted. It's normally AU$790
so I wonder if it would be possible to compare that $25 station with some $500 one , or I'm wrong? (i love $20 multi-meter , by-the-way :) )
My preference is for a single big twisty knob to set the temperature. Nothing is as fast as that. A rotary encoder with a big aluminum knob... (suggestion for the Pace guys!) However, the up/down buttons are of course acceptable, since there are pre-sets that serve most of the purpose that the twisty knob would (arguably, not as intuitive though).
We've sold several soldering stations with knobs and the problem is ... they don't sell! I like them a lot too. We only have 2 legacy soldering stations that we sell with a control knob, called the ST-25, and that one is only there because the US Military buy a couple hundred a year. The other pone is called the ST 30, and that one will be discontinued soon ... due to lack of sales. Everyone seems to want digital!
Aaron
I didn't mean go back to an analog design... definitely, we want to keep all the benefits of digital, including the temperature display (thank you for using LEDs instead of LCD, by the way - so much easier to see).
I simply meant just use a rotary encoder instead of up/down buttons to set the temperature. That would make the user interface even simpler (replace 2 buttons or 3 buttons with 1 knob). It is tedious to repeatedly stab buttons to move the temperature up and down, compared to twisting a knob... -- This is for the suggestion box for future ideas, more than a criticism of the product under discussion!
Best regards -
The curious cat in me wonders what the military is doing needing hundreds of new Pace stations per year! It’s not as though they’re all failing after a year or two! And surely they aren’t expanding their hand-assembly workforce at that pace? (No pun intended!)
My preference is for a single big twisty knob to set the temperature. Nothing is as fast as that. A rotary encoder with a big aluminum knob... (suggestion for the Pace guys!) However, the up/down buttons are of course acceptable, since there are pre-sets that serve most of the purpose that the twisty knob would (arguably, not as intuitive though).
We've sold several soldering stations with knobs and the problem is ... they don't sell! I like them a lot too. We only have 2 legacy soldering stations that we sell with a control knob, called the ST-25, and that one is only there because the US Military buy a couple hundred a year. The other pone is called the ST 30, and that one will be discontinued soon ... due to lack of sales. Everyone seems to want digital!
The curious cat in me wonders what the military is doing needing hundreds of new Pace stations per year! It’s not as though they’re all failing after a year or two! And surely they aren’t expanding their hand-assembly workforce at that pace? (No pun intended!)
<rant>Hahahaha what a load of crap! :-DD
I don't mean to be rude but, US companies shoving "Military" (specs or whatever) here and there, all the time, as marketing buzzwords, you guys have no idea how laughable that sounds outside the US...
Also, It seems to me the "(proudly) Made in the USA" (sometimes next to a tiny USA flag) badge must be something you put mainly to proof to your own US citizens you're not outsourcing/offshoring (chinesium), which may be a good thing but, let me tell you, outside the USA, most people nowadays would rather buy something else made in Japan, Germany, Korea, France, the UK, etc, much sooner than one made in the USA, except for a very, very tiny set of top-notch US brands. Everything else, no way!
</rant>
<rant>Hahahaha what a load of crap! :-DD
I don't mean to be rude but, US companies shoving "Military" (specs or whatever) here and there, all the time, as marketing buzzwords, you guys have no idea how laughable that sounds outside the US...
Also, It seems to me the "(proudly) Made in the USA" (sometimes next to a tiny USA flag) badge must be something you put mainly to proof to your own US citizens you're not outsourcing/offshoring (chinesium), which may be a good thing but, let me tell you, outside the USA, most people nowadays would rather buy something else made in Japan, Germany, Korea, France, the UK, etc, much sooner than one made in the USA, except for a very, very tiny set of top-notch US brands. Everything else, no way!
</rant>
Don't get me wrong: I'm an American living in Europe, I get crap all the time about being American. Europeans hate the US (as a country), but they love American products! It's not to say that Europeans dislike Japanese, German, Korean, French, or UK products, not at all. But to say that they hate American products is absolutely ridiculous.
Edit: And don't get me wrong #2: I'm hardly a flag-waving "patriot". I find most displays of American patriotism to be… in poor taste to put it mildly. But lots of countries put "Made in XXX" on their products. Switzerland does it ALL THE TIME, very often with a little Swiss flag. If I were making a product in USA, I'd put "Made in USA" on it, but I wouldn't say "proudly" and I'd leave off any flags. Just seems tacky to me.
As for mil spec: they put that designation on products because defense suppliers are required to follow those standards. They're real standards (and generally very strict ones), whether you like it or not. And Pace didn't even say mil spec here, they just said that the US military had a very large order from them.
I generally like American products right up until I have to deal with the Imperial system. Then I get annoyed and buy something logical. Finding fasteners and the like is an epic pain.At least the US is changing to metric, little by little! (Not that we wanna start another thread about this, it was discussed to death on another thread not long ago.)
Anyone know how much it costs in the UK and where to get it? Given the usual exchange rate £1=$1 I am guessing £250.
Mike
Thanks for the review. I'm a big fan of Pace. Been using their products for several years. I suspect my current Pace will never need to be adjusted for temperature as well. I do have a few questions that sadly never were answered in Cliffs thread. Maybe you could help.
For my old Pace, there is a table showing the different tips and a compensation factor for them. Is this still done? I wonder if that is the "Temperature Match" you mention.
Do these new tips require a burn-in? If so, does the firmware have a burn-in mode? Burn-in is required (Pace's claim) to increase the life of the heater. I wonder what the life of these new heater/tip assemblies will be.
The one problem that I have had with mine is when the NVRAM became corrupt. This corrupted the password and all the settings. There is no documentation on Pace's site to recover it. Happened on a weekend so I could not call anyone. I had to resort to a bit of reverse engineering to correct it. I assume from your video, they are still using the same basic technology and nothing prevents this condition from happening. Do they at least offer a way to recover it now? Perhaps just a jumper on the main PCB?
The biggest reason I would have to upgrade at home for my hobby is not the faster heating. I would like to have a better set of tweezers. Mine are huge and clumsy. I really like the ones that came out after mine. Will the new tweezers for this iron be the same basic design? When will they become available? Will the tips basically be double the price for a set?
Will they offer a dual output station?
I'm assuming that price, shipped from your UK office, is still excluding VAT?
Aaron, do you know anything about what the Swiss distributor is doing? Their website doesn’t even list the ADS200 yet. (I’m not reeeeeaally in the market for a new station, but man that thing is sexy!)
This is their page for soldering stations (rework stations have a separate page) https://shop.sibalco.ch/Kategorie/Loetsysteme-34545154
For my old Pace, there is a table showing the different tips and a compensation factor for them. Is this still done? I wonder if that is the "Temperature Match" you mention.
Do these new tips require a burn-in? If so, does the firmware have a burn-in mode? Burn-in is required (Pace's claim) to increase the life of the heater. I wonder what the life of these new heater/tip assemblies will be.The burn-in procedure was used for the SensaTemp type handpieces like the PS90 which has a heater assembly. The cartridge tips do not have a burn-in mode.
At times I use the iron to heat the copper foil enough to breakdown the adhesive so I can remove it. When I do this, I can end up putting a fair amount of force on the tip as I don't want to apply solder to get a good heat transfer. My old Pace with the indirect heat is very solid in this regard. What's you thoughts on how mechanically the new tips are?I think that the cartridge tips are not going to be as rugged when abused like this. Even though the tip-to-grip distance is short, there is a significantly longer lever arm from the tip to the support point compared to the PS90. The cartridge tips are also not held as stiffly from the side, since there is no grub screw. I would be interested to hear suggestions from PACE.
Define "ducks guts"
Indeed!Aaron, do you know anything about what the Swiss distributor is doing? Their website doesn’t even list the ADS200 yet. (I’m not reeeeeaally in the market for a new station, but man that thing is sexy!)
This is their page for soldering stations (rework stations have a separate page) https://shop.sibalco.ch/Kategorie/Loetsysteme-34545154
Sibalco is a long-time distributor for PACE. I'll ask Neil Manson, European Regional Sales Manager to give Sibalco a call to push them to update their site! Surprises me that Farnell isn't listed, as they're a key PACE distributor in Europe.
Aaron
Thank you very much for taking the time to answer my questions. It's been a few years since the password problem. I posted the procedure I came up with here which is a bit more intrusive:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-sodrtek-st-45-factory-reset/msg812698/#msg812698 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-sodrtek-st-45-factory-reset/msg812698/#msg812698)
Is there a similar recovery procedure documented for the new irons as well?
My tweezers are like having two PS90s in your hand. With the tips you offer, I can remove some very large parts with them quickly. Anymore I use them mostly for 1206 and smaller two leaded parts but wonder will the new tweezers offer such a wide assortment of tips? If not, is it possible to drive the old tweezers with the new controller?
Thank you very much for taking the time to answer my questions. It's been a few years since the password problem. I posted the procedure I came up with here which is a bit more intrusive:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-sodrtek-st-45-factory-reset/msg812698/#msg812698 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pace-sodrtek-st-45-factory-reset/msg812698/#msg812698)
Is there a similar recovery procedure documented for the new irons as well?
My tweezers are like having two PS90s in your hand. With the tips you offer, I can remove some very large parts with them quickly. Anymore I use them mostly for 1206 and smaller two leaded parts but wonder will the new tweezers offer such a wide assortment of tips? If not, is it possible to drive the old tweezers with the new controller?
Hi Joe,
We have a document for recovery of all old & new power supplies, but it looks like it hasn't been updated for the ADS200 (see attached pdf file). I'm pretty sure it's the same procedure as for "IntelliHeat Systems" but I'll make sure it is updated.
You have the older TT-65 ThermoTweez handpiece which was designed to remove larger chips and large 4-sided components. It's not very ergomonic and it can get very hot if used continuously. The newer Thermal Tweezer will be more like our current MT-100 (see www.paceworldwide.com/products/handpieces/tweezers/mt100-minitweez-surface-mount-rework-tweezer-handpiece (http://www.paceworldwide.com/products/handpieces/tweezers/mt100-minitweez-surface-mount-rework-tweezer-handpiece)) and will use identically shaped tips ... but it will not be compatible with the IntelliHeat or SensaTemp Handpieces. The reason is that the new Tweezer tips use a completely different voltage (16VAC) and sensor system than older units and is thus not compatible. But there will be 11 tips (with identical tip configurations as the current MT-100 Tip selection), and one additional fine point set of tips for 0201 chips.
Hope this helps,
Aaron
I've been eyeing the MBT 301 for home and basically wondering if a two ADS200 stations with the new tweezers would be more cost effective?
Pace wrote: Also, I would avoid dropping the tip cartridges from the bench and then stepping on them!!
Shock wrote: they do a really good desoldering tool the SX-100.l
The SX-100 is still going strong, tips last a very decent time, but who cares, they are dead-cheap, and you can drop them and jump on them if that is your thing... :)
I've been eyeing the MBT 301 for home and basically wondering if a two ADS200 stations with the new tweezers would be more cost effective?
That is what I am aiming for with my two ADS200. I can just use two irons or swap one to the tweezers when they come out. Based on Paces past systems I expect they will eventually roll Accudrive technology into the larger stations but this could be years away. I've got my eyes on a few other Pace handpieces as well they do a really good desoldering tool the SX-100.
These are my two spanking new ADS200 here.
One weak point of the SX100 is the rubber around the tips. The tips have a trumpet shape end that damages the (luckily cheap) rubber because I use about 8 sizes of tips and switch between them all the time (that is several times a day). I cut of the trumpet and and it did not negative influence the working (I think it improved) but now the rubber lasts. Front Seal failure
Wondering if there is any trade-in program at Pace for the ADS200.
Would be tempted to give up my Hakko FX888D, if that would get me a good discount on the price for the ADS200.
The curious cat in me wonders what the military is doing needing hundreds of new Pace stations per year! It’s not as though they’re all failing after a year or two! And surely they aren’t expanding their hand-assembly workforce at that pace? (No pun intended)
So they spend it all Willy-nilly and then ask for more money the next year.
We're working on that silicone SX-100 Front Seal. It was sourced ages ago and we are looking for a more durable and heat resistant material. Interesting that the desoldering tip works as well after cutting off the fluted (trumpet-shaped) end of the stainless transfer tube. The fluted end is definitely a major source of damage to the Front Seal. During all of our tests, a straightened tube resulted in a significant increase in solder clogs. Maybe we should rethink? Hmmm ...
Thanks for the comments.
Aaron
Wondering if there is any trade-in program at Pace for the ADS200.
Would be tempted to give up my Hakko FX888D, if that would get me a good discount on the price for the ADS200.
Not at this time. We usually work with a local distributor to advance promotions such as these.
Yes, That is called ebay >:D
You know I would really just prefer a number. When a retail price, including tax and shipping isn't readily available, without me having to go and find it, or worse have to email to ask, I am not interested.
So thanks for the prices. There will be VAT to add I assume.
Mike
Yes, There is sometimes solder clogging without the flute, I can not remember if that also was the case before I modded the tips. But before that I had to empty the tube much more often and had to clean or replace the felt-filter in the tube more often, sometimes 2 or 3 times a day while there was not a lot of solder in there. That was sprayed with solder and flux, that was more work as removing the clogged solder. Now I have a Z shaped piece of metal clamped just before the felt filter. It is bizar how well it still sucks with the tube almost full.
There is a simple solution for the rubber, (I think) If you make the part of the tip that is in the heater a bit longer so the thick part of the tip also presses on the front side of the seal. That way you have an extra and much better sealing. And an even better thermal resistance because of the increased mass.
But I think I desolder a bit more as average because of the sort of repair work I do.
Are you admitting you've jumped on Pace cartridges? Maybe they should employ you as a European beta-tester :scared:QuotePace wrote: Also, I would avoid dropping the tip cartridges from the bench and then stepping on them!!
:-DD
Now after a year of (ab)use. The SX-100 is still going strong, tips last a very decent time, but who cares, they are dead-cheap, and you can drop them and jump on them if that is your thing... :)
Are you admitting you've jumped on Pace cartridges? Maybe they should employ you as a European beta-tester :scared:
~20% is standard in the EU (prices for products not aimed at B2B normally include it by default though). The bigger problem is that normally the EU(/UK) price is the US price changed directly to EUR/GBP without taking into account for the greater per-unit value of the currency. _THEN_ VAT is added. (PACE hasn't quite done this here - pre-VAT UK price is still more expensive than the US price but by more like 20%, not by the normal 30%+).
The UK office contacted me back and said VAT is +20% ... egads!
Aaron
That is what I am aiming for with my two ADS200. I can just use two irons or swap one to the tweezers when they come out. Based on Paces past systems I expect they will eventually roll Accudrive technology into the larger stations but this could be years away. I've got my eyes on a few other Pace handpieces as well they do a really good desoldering tool the SX-100.Do they stack on top of each other, as Dave hypothesized?
These are my two spanking new ADS200 here.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/new-pace-ads200-production-soldering-station/?action=dlattach;attach=480029;image)
Do they stack on top of each other, as Dave hypothesized?
Do they stack on top of each other, as Dave hypothesized?
Good question.
There's a picture of them stacked here. Scroll down some.
https://paceworldwide.com/ADS200/
Do they stack on top of each other, as Dave hypothesized?
It's valid, their host hasn't moved to TLS 1.3 yet, would you mind not being a Royal PITA for just a day?There's a picture of them stacked here. Scroll down some.
https://paceworldwide.com/ADS200/
They do the things at their pace.
Yes they do. They also have mounting slots on the top and sides so you can attach the stand/cubby or brackets to mount under shelves or desk.
So Ersa see my video and want to get in on part of the review action and want a comparison with the Pace. They then proceed to dictate terms and conditions of the review :-DDThat is so shortsighted of them, especially given how well their products perform for a “traditional” separate tip and heater arrangement.
http://www.eevblog.com/reviews/ (http://www.eevblog.com/reviews/)
The MBT has slots on the side so You can mount the handpiece stands to the unit. I see the ADS stands have the holes. Does the ADS have side-slots too ?
Interesting , what motivated you to choose the Pace over say the JBC (if it was on special that is) or a Hakko variant ?.
You know I would really just prefer a number. When a retail price, including tax and shipping isn't readily available, without me having to go and find it, or worse have to email to ask, I am not interested.
So thanks for the prices. There will be VAT to add I assume.
Mike
The UK office contacted me back and said VAT is +20% ... egads!
Aaron
<rant>
I don't mean to be rude but, US companies shoving "Military" (specs or whatever) here and there, all the time, as marketing buzzwords, you guys have no idea how laughable that sounds outside the US...
Also, It seems to me the "(proudly) Made in the USA" (sometimes next to a tiny USA flag) badge must be something you put mainly to proof to your own US citizens you're not outsourcing/offshoring (chinesium), which may be a good thing but, let me tell you, outside the USA, most people nowadays would rather buy something else made in Japan, Germany, Korea, France, the UK, etc, much sooner than one made in the USA, except for a very, very tiny set of top-notch US brands. Everything else, no way!
</rant>
An electrolytic capacitor placed very close, no actually _touching_, the most significant heat sources? It will dry out in a relatively short time and then bye, bye soldering station! Unless the owner knows how to replace capacitors (which should be the case). If it were a mass market product then I would say this must be a clear case of planned obsolescence, like the one I've discovered in one Philips DVD player (see https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/10-days-of-anguish-the-story-of-my-first-major-not-so-trivial-repair-of-consumer-electronics.127336/ for details). But in this case I'd say it must be the effect of piss-poor board design. If I bought this station the first thing I'd do would be unsoldering and moving the capacitor to another location.Do you own the product? I've opened mine and no, it was not touching the 105c Nippon Chemi-Con el-cap. The regulator dissipation does not vary and the el-cap in question is just above the air convection intake (clearly the coldest part of the aluminum enclosure). At 126VAC mains (ANSI +5%) I measured the tab of the regulator at 85c (~80c @120v). So I decided to use a larger heat sink I had in stock and was satisfied with just 50c at 126VAC (47c @120v).
I thought this was a "Production", "Military grade", "NASA approved" soldering station...
but in fact, it is increasingly looking like a DIY Soldering Station Kit.
In any case, if I were you, I would do some "pre-emptive" repair in the station itself, and install a bigger heatsink to the regulator as some other people have already done... perhaps even a small fan if you live in a hot climate?Why do you appear to troll? 6 of your 8 posts are from after you bought a used JBC AD2700.. How's that working out?
Do you even understand what it means for an object to pay for itself?I thought this was a "Production", "Military grade", "NASA approved" soldering station...they virtually paid for themselves before they even got through the door.
but in fact, it is increasingly looking like a DIY Soldering Station Kit.
oh, I see. I suspected that much.
I thought this was a "Production", "Military grade", "NASA approved" soldering station...they virtually paid for themselves before they even got through the door.
but in fact, it is increasingly looking like a DIY Soldering Station Kit.
oh, I see. I suspected that much.
In any case, if I were you, I would do some "pre-emptive" repair in the station itself, and install a bigger heatsink to the regulator as some other people have already done... perhaps even a small fan if you live in a hot climate?
..it's also made in the USA, which is in fact the real reason you've been telling everyone to buy this station all over the place over the last few months...That's quite presumptuous of you to know me so well.. maybe now we can be buddies and you might want to think about contributing to EEVblog sometime. FWIW, I'm semi-retired and have wanted to own a good station for ages. I've known about Pace since working for Telefunken in the 70's. As as a kid, I'd buy PE and PM mags when they were in the small format (likely long before you were born).
If you want to buy American (regardless of the quality) and think everyone else should do the same, just say so. Let's not pretend there is any other reason.
I know this much, I used my station all day yesterday at 370c and nothing but the tip ever got hot, while my arthritis has never been better after holding this little beast for over 2 hours total.
I'm sorry , I didn't mean to disrespect your soldering iron. You forgot to mention that it's also made in the USA, which is in fact the real reason you've been telling everyone to buy this station all over the place over the last few months...Wow, it takes a special kind of stupid to accuse both an Australian and a Canadian of only choosing this item because of national pride for a made-in-USA product. :-DD |O :clap:
(even before you had the chance to try it out for yourself)... I mean, the internet is a big place, but I seem to find your posts telling people to buy Pace everywhere... here, on youtube. Was it you chastising Louis Rossmann on his youtube channel for not promoting American products?... Yeah, it was.
If you want to buy American (regardless of the quality) and think everyone else should do the same, just say so. Let's not pretend there is any other reason.
Sorry to interrupt the chat.I don’t own a Pace myself, but what you describe is exactly how the auto setback on my Ersa i-Con nano works. (When at the setback temp, putting the tip into the brass wool cleaner causes a temperature drop, too, telling it “wake up!”.) It’s not bad, but the one downside is that when it’s decided to begin the drop down to setback and is in the cool off phase, then attempting to use it won’t wake it up, because it’s expecting the temp to drop. A true setback-sensing stand or handle would avoid this problem, and so if I were buying something now, I’d get it with the ISB stand.
I am buying the ADS200, but cannot decide if it is worth buying ISB Tool Stand or not? How does the software SetBack timer work? If the temperature of the tip does not change by some amount in some time, the MCU assumes the tool is idle and lowers the temperature?
However, looking at ADS200 user manual, (software) SetBack time can only be set in intervals of tens of minutes, so the lowest possible setting is 10 minutes, which kind of makes it unusable? It would be nice if Pace changed this in firmware so you could also set it to 1 minute, for example.
I am buying the ADS200, but cannot decide if it is worth buying ISB Tool Stand or not? How does the software SetBack timer work? If the temperature of the tip does not change by some amount in some time, the MCU assumes the tool is idle and lowers the temperature?
Sorry to interrupt the chat.
I am buying the ADS200, but cannot decide if it is worth buying ISB Tool Stand or not? How does the software SetBack timer work? If the temperature of the tip does not change by some amount in some time, the MCU assumes the tool is idle and lowers the temperature?
The 10 minute increments are intended to simplify operation of the unit. At one point in time, we had a SetBack timer that was programmable in increments of 1 minute intervals, but that scheme was abandoned when customers complained that setting the unit to 1 minute resulted in false alarms when using certain tips. When I set up my ADS200, I use a SetBack setting of 90 minutes and 90 minutes for AutoOff. This assures me the unit will go turn itself off within 3 hours, just in case I leave it on by mistake.
Why do time increments have to be linear? If I was programming something like that, I might have a sequence that might look like: 1, 2, 5, 10, 20, 30, 45, 60, 90, 120 minutes (just an example).
Hi there! I’d like to clarify several points in this thread, some of which I’ve already mentioned on the other EEVBlog “JBC Killer” thread started by Cliff Matthews. We are taking every comment posted on the EEVBlog very seriously. Our engineers have reviewed the various comments and are looking at ways we can enhance your user experience:
PACE’s Take on Dave’s Review: Some at PACE were irritated by some of Dave’s comments and procedures during the first video, but most agree that the second revision was objective, fair and balanced, despite the fact that it is not complementary in many places. We agree with him on many points, both positive and negative. It’s been a tremendous feedback experience which will ultimately benefit the end-user!
ADS200 vs JBC: Comparing the ADS200 to the JBC is like comparing a Prius to a Lexus …. But, as Dave has explained multiple times, we understand there was a massive thread on the forum asking if this is a "JBC killer" or not. For the record, PACE’s goal was not to create a “JBC-Killer” which is a premium soldering station at a premium price for both station and tips. It was to design a powerful production soldering station with a wide variety of inexpensive tips that could withstand the rigors of multi-shift production, yet be inexpensive enough to sell to technicians and engineers who simply cannot afford a premium Metcal or JBC. I think we have succeeded spectacularly, if customer feedback is any indication.
ADS200 Display: We agree that there is no reason for the wacky screen anomalies and overshoot flashes when the tip initially heats up. Also, I’ve always felt the flashing of the display/LED during SetBack was really intrusive, but no customer ever directly complained about it on our previous stations! But now we’re in the age of social media, this type of feedback flows freely, and we get it! I believe these things can be resolved via firmware update, but give us some time to get it together.
Look of the Aluminium (we spell it "Aluminum"): We have been using these custom (not off the shelf) aluminum chassis extrusions since the 90’s. Yeah, old school. Some people think it’s great, some sexy (Dave does!!!) and others think it is ugly and antiquated (I tend to lean towards the last one). But creating a modern and sexy new case would have added at least 3-4 months for tooling, required us to redesign the pcb and a host of other issues. In the end, time-to-market concerns and the fact that the ulta-sturdy case is practically invulnerable to burns, 3 foot drops onto a cement floor and other customer abuse, led us to stay with the proven and rugged old-school extrusions.
High $542 price in Australia: Distributor mark-ups are very complicated, especially in Australia and other foreign countries. Mektronics sells the standard ADS200 for $542 Australian dollars which is equivalent to about US$397. Mektronics must ship from US to Australia, an extremely expensive endeavor probably costing thousands. Using the cheapest UPS shipping setting on our website will cost you US$250 for one ADS unit! Plus, add on duty, taxes, Customs etc and voila’! After all is said and done, it wouldn't surprise me if Mektronics made only 20-25% margin on that $542 price. I really don't see it as price gouging. Note that JBC products may not be as expensive to ship since JBC manufactures & ships out of Spain. It’s also possible that Mektronics is getting a special deal or much better discount pricing from JBC. By the way, in Brazil the mark-up is almost 3 times the list price in the US because of taxes and duties!
“Crappy” User Interface?: I don’t agree. Yes, the display is old-school and basic, but we’re going for utter simplicity here. Just push the Red “UP” button to raise the temp, or Blue “Down” button to decrease the temp. Or use the pre-sets. Try to change the temperature with an FX-951 like that and you’ll get a cryptic set of codes that require you to consult the manual (Rossmann describes it as an "80's alarm clock interface"). The ADS200 unit has much more capability built in if you wish to delve into the set-up mode. But our goal was for a customer to open the box, plug in all in, and be up and running, without a manual, within 2 minutes. Done!
Just FYI, Sibalco still hasn't updated their site to reflect the ADS200, and the PACE website still doesn't list Farnell as a distributor for Switzerland. (Farnell isn't listed for several other countries that Farnell definitely ships to, like Germany. Someone probably needs to go through the whole list of Farnell countries and update your list.)Aaron, do you know anything about what the Swiss distributor is doing? Their website doesn’t even list the ADS200 yet. (I’m not reeeeeaally in the market for a new station, but man that thing is sexy!)
This is their page for soldering stations (rework stations have a separate page) https://shop.sibalco.ch/Kategorie/Loetsysteme-34545154
Sibalco is a long-time distributor for PACE. I'll ask Neil Manson, European Regional Sales Manager to give Sibalco a call to push them to update their site! Surprises me that Farnell isn't listed, as they're a key PACE distributor in Europe.
Aaron
Good Morning.
Thank you for your recent enquiry via the PACE Worldwide Website.
Currently, there is no Tweezer handpiece available for the ADS 200 but I can tell you that one will be introduced later this year. In the meantime, the MT-100 and TT-65 handpieces are available and can be used in conjunction with the ST 50 Power Source.
I hope that this information helps, should you require any additional details please do not hesitate to contact me.
Regards
Doug Winship
PACE Europe Limited
Why do time increments have to be linear? If I was programming something like that, I might have a sequence that might look like: 1, 2, 5, 10, 20, 30, 45, 60, 90, 120 minutes (just an example).