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EEVblog => EEVblog Specific => Topic started by: EEVblog on February 16, 2019, 09:14:02 am

Title: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: EEVblog on February 16, 2019, 09:14:02 am
Dave exposes the ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver as a complete scam.
They are supposed to talk to the car's ECU via the CAN bus on the OBD2 connector, but does it?
Bonus rant on Audiophile Audiophoolery!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgXwfBTKLGU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgXwfBTKLGU)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: drussell on February 16, 2019, 09:26:23 am
Different board layout but basically exactly the same kind of silly light blinking that Big Clive found:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8vjWXXIJas (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8vjWXXIJas)

I'm sure there are people that believe these things actually do something, though...

DERP!  It works so much better than the fuel saving magnets!   :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: maginnovision on February 16, 2019, 09:28:53 am
I can't imagine plugging random shit into the obd2 port, much less something with lofty claims.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: johnlsenchak on February 16, 2019, 09:46:59 am


Awesome  video  total  wankerey !
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: NiHaoMike on February 16, 2019, 11:20:07 am
Hypermilers know about OBD2 gadgets that really can boost MPG - the Scangauge being one of the earliest ones. Quite a bit more complex than a box with flashing LEDs, but not that much more complex.

Of which, what I would like to see is a gadget that uses GPS data and computer vision to learn the timing of the traffic lights and inform the driver to speed up or slow down in order to maximize the chances of getting to it on green. Not at all an easy task but it can save a lot of time as well as energy.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: MrMobodies on February 16, 2019, 03:05:35 pm
Take a look at their website affiliate program link:

https://www.h8m8.com/#why-work-with-us (https://www.h8m8.com/#why-work-with-us)

Quote
WANT INTERNATIONAL WHITEHAT E-COMMERCE? WE HAVE IT

Only In-house Offers & Weekly Payouts
Lightning fast loading times
Any kind of customization you might dream of
All the marketing materials you might need

WHY IT’S A GOOD IDEA
TO WORK WITH Us?


Perfect way to make money
Weekly payouts for higher volume affiliates, always on time

I don't see the Eco Can't bus on their product page:

https://www.h8m8.com/#product (https://www.h8m8.com/#product)

But they have got the same payment thing on their other products that take you to their "checkout page"

Like this Drone:
https://www.blade360.pro/checkout?tpl=dmc3 (https://www.blade360.pro/checkout?tpl=dmc3)

Edit:
I don't see it "reserving" me one.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: Deodand2014 on February 16, 2019, 05:31:26 pm
Here is Big Clive's second look at the things, with pretty much the same conclusions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx8fywphQp0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx8fywphQp0)

And this video on a car related channel went so far as to put some eBay 'Performance Enhancing' plug in devices to the test on a proper testing rig.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGtImIP6j3A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGtImIP6j3A)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: jonovid on February 16, 2019, 08:31:31 pm
their is nothing new under the sun  :=\
here is an Australian 1980s original 
the Peter Brock Energy Polarizer    :-DD  :bullshit:
a box full of magic crystals embedded in tiger snake oil.

$480 Energy Polarizer  is at 2:35 in the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZZpP4fbgeE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZZpP4fbgeE)
$480 Energy Polarizer  is at 2:35 in the video
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: German_EE on February 16, 2019, 09:56:44 pm
I bought one.

OK, pause for the laughter to die down..............................................

The OBD port on our car is at a convenient point to power the GPS and it has that handy 12V connection, however the ODB plugs (the proper ones) are about 8 Euro each in one-off quantities. So, I bought a scammy ODB fuel saver off EBay for 3 Euro, ripped out the PCB, and replaced it with a 5V regulator.

The final step was to label the plug as a GPS supply, just in case our dealer thought that we had lost our minds the next time the car went in for a service.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: Barny on February 16, 2019, 11:12:54 pm
What about the 12V Port (a.k. cigaret lighter port)?
Its an even more convinient way to power GPS, charge phone,....
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: SeanB on February 16, 2019, 11:25:01 pm
What about the 12V Port (a.k. cigaret lighter port)?
Its an even more convinient way to power GPS, charge phone,....

Possibly was already in use, plus they often are switched outlets, while the OBD port is an always on 12V source, perfect for an always on GPS device. Hope you also painted the plastic to match the surrounding dashboard plastic before labelling it, though another thing is that you also get car trackers that are a pass through OBD port, using the 12V power, while at the same time having an all wire pass through to a socket that takes the place of the original purple OBD socket, with the original being hidden back further under the dashboard area, so that to the casual look the OBD port is unused, but there is a tracking system in that is easy to install. Often used on cars under HP to ensure that a buyer, with poor credit score, can be traced if they stop paying, so that the remaining value on the vehicle can be realised by repo. Often when the loan is paid off the device is removed, and yes, in the fine print there is the proviso that the company can and will reposess the vehicle, and that there is a tracking system on there, and the monthly fee for this is also included in the payment lump sum.

Watched way too much Matt Pitman......
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: A Hellene on February 17, 2019, 01:05:59 am
Oh, yes, of course these cheap little crap-boxes can save fuel!
No less!

After all, this is a well known fact that the kernel-mode (the lower ring, protected) procedures of the modern car controllers would be more than happy to obey any user-mode imbecile commands (or, even, any service-mode commands, intended to be resetting some internal fault flags), to change the injection/ignition mapping in order to save fuel --or to carry out any other factory-protected procedures...

-George
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: MT on February 17, 2019, 01:12:20 am
The "fake light show" is not fake, its real!  :D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: NANDBlog on February 17, 2019, 01:18:20 am
Hypermilers know about OBD2 gadgets that really can boost MPG - the Scangauge being one of the earliest ones. Quite a bit more complex than a box with flashing LEDs, but not that much more complex.

Of which, what I would like to see is a gadget that uses GPS data and computer vision to learn the timing of the traffic lights and inform the driver to speed up or slow down in order to maximize the chances of getting to it on green. Not at all an easy task but it can save a lot of time as well as energy.
No, it is simpler than that. You can optimize a ICE for power, emission or fuel use. Car MF optimizes it for emissions, because law.
And you shouldnt change it, because law.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: Kleinstein on February 17, 2019, 01:55:35 am
There is a good reason to have the solder mask over the pads - this way the chip is less likely to interfere with the cars operation.  So it's not that stupid.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: JPortici on February 17, 2019, 04:10:42 am
Argh! You beat us.
This is somewhat related to our line of work and my boss wanted to make a video too, where we would disassemble one of these POS and demonstrate once and for all that they are garbage. He already bought a couple of them (from ebay of course) and they should arrive next week

I fear that this scam is of a global scale
A bit of fun for my italian pals: https://www.butac.it/davide-bianchi-e-il-dispositivo-ecofuel/ (https://www.butac.it/davide-bianchi-e-il-dispositivo-ecofuel/)
This came out a couple of weeks ago, but it's the same shit every few months.

The video talks about this young engineering student at University of Bologna. During some experiments he found out a way to reduce fuel consumption and in turn emissions for all vehichles. He tried to publish his research but one day he found out he was being expelled from university, with no apparent reason. Then, with the aid of his uncle (another engineer) he decided to create and market this tool for the good of mankind.

The story gives me the shivers :D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: ejeffrey on February 17, 2019, 04:51:51 am
Oh, yes, of course these cheap little crap-boxes can save fuel!
No less!

After all, this is a well known fact that the kernel-mode (the lower ring, protected) procedures of the modern car controllers would be more than happy to obey any user-mode imbecile commands (or, even, any service-mode commands, intended to be resetting some internal fault flags), to change the injection/ignition mapping in order to save fuel --or to carry out any other factory-protected procedures...

-George

It is definitely possible to remap many cars ECU via the OBD-II port.  Just because this devices is a fraud doesn't mean it is impossible.  There are semi-reputable companies that do make devices that can do this.  They will either provide you with a standard "known good" maps for your particular car, or allow you to individually change fuel parameters which is obviously a good way to totally f-up your car.  Depending on where you live and what you actually change this is often illegal, as it is changing emissions related settings from what the manufacturer certified.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: ejeffrey on February 17, 2019, 04:59:49 am
The video talks about this young engineering student at University of Bologna. During some experiments he found out a way to reduce fuel consumption and in turn emissions for all vehichles. He tried to publish his research but one day he found out he was being expelled from university, with no apparent reason. Then, with the aid of his uncle (another engineer) he decided to create and market this tool for the good of mankind.

You can decrease consumption and emissions by, for instance, braking the engine so it doesn't operate.  Zero emissions and zero fuel consumption!

There are also new engine technologies that can improve both -- such as HCCI or variable compression ratio.  However, for a given engine, you normally have to trade off emissions vs. consumption vs. power.  Leaner, hotter burning high pressure mixtures are more efficient but generate more NOx.  Rich fuel allows more power but increases consumption, etc.  It isn't like the car makers don't know what variables affect those parameters, they choose an engine map that is a good compromise between those three. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: German_EE on February 17, 2019, 05:19:31 am
What about the 12V Port (a.k. cigaret lighter port)?
Its an even more convinient way to power GPS, charge phone,....

This would mean a 1.5m USB cable that passes over the pedals, along the side of the transmission tunnel and then past the gear shift. The OBD port option is a 40cm cable that is out of sight for all but 5cm of it's length.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: nctnico on February 17, 2019, 05:57:43 am
That box is a poorly covered up a scam indeed. I guess they isolated the CAN signals on purpose so they can get away from legal trouble in case something goes wrong.

BTW: I made my previous (turbo diesel) car run 5% more efficient using a 1.5V zener diode. Bonus points to the first one who figures out where I put it!
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: JPortici on February 17, 2019, 08:07:59 am
The video talks about this young engineering student at University of Bologna. During some experiments he found out a way to reduce fuel consumption and in turn emissions for all vehichles. He tried to publish his research but one day he found out he was being expelled from university, with no apparent reason. Then, with the aid of his uncle (another engineer) he decided to create and market this tool for the good of mankind.

You can decrease consumption and emissions by, for instance, braking the engine so it doesn't operate.  Zero emissions and zero fuel consumption!

There are also new engine technologies that can improve both -- such as HCCI or variable compression ratio.  However, for a given engine, you normally have to trade off emissions vs. consumption vs. power.  Leaner, hotter burning high pressure mixtures are more efficient but generate more NOx.  Rich fuel allows more power but increases consumption, etc.  It isn't like the car makers don't know what variables affect those parameters, they choose an engine map that is a good compromise between those three. 

i take it that you're not getting that it was a publicity video with conspiration theory overtones to promote this very same scam?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: nali on February 17, 2019, 08:22:06 am
BTW: I made my previous (turbo diesel) car run 5% more efficient using a 1.5V zener diode. Bonus points to the first one who figures out where I put it!

Wedged under the accelerator pedal?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: Lockon Stratos on February 17, 2019, 09:53:19 am
@EEVblog
Even if that thingy wanted to program the ECU the car needs to be a very old one because most new ones wont talk to devices that arent running the official SW from the car manufacturer(aside from a few basic things OFC)....
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: Mr. Scram on February 17, 2019, 09:58:18 am
I can't imagine plugging random shit into the obd2 port, much less something with lofty claims.
Let's give dodgy equipment what's essentially root access to the valuable vehicle you drive around at high speed. What could possibly go wrong?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: sokoloff on February 17, 2019, 09:58:46 am
BTW: I made my previous (turbo diesel) car run 5% more efficient using a 1.5V zener diode. Bonus points to the first one who figures out where I put it!
Disable EGR and use the zener to keep the ECU from figuring it out?

OM606?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: nctnico on February 17, 2019, 10:04:48 am
BTW: I made my previous (turbo diesel) car run 5% more efficient using a 1.5V zener diode. Bonus points to the first one who figures out where I put it!
Disable EGR and use the zener to keep the ECU from figuring it out?
No. Offset the turbo pressure sensor so the ECU allowed to inject more fuel at low RPM giving is more power in low RPM (also known as eco-tuning). With the fix it allowed to drive the car at 70km/h in 5th gear instead of 4th gear.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: SilverSolder on February 17, 2019, 10:06:22 am
What if the device actually works...  by making the driver being more careful on the gas pedal?   Recent research has shown that placebos work...   even if the patient knows he is getting a placebo!

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/10/27/499475288/is-it-still-a-placebo-when-it-works-and-you-know-its-a-placebo (https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/10/27/499475288/is-it-still-a-placebo-when-it-works-and-you-know-its-a-placebo)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: janoc on February 17, 2019, 10:09:09 am
@EEVblog
Even if that thingy wanted to program the ECU the car needs to be a very old one because most new ones wont talk to devices that arent running the official SW from the car manufacturer(aside from a few basic things OFC)....

That doesn't mean you can't make a dongle that will talk to a particular make/model of a car and actually do something (whether useful or not). For some cars it is easier than others. Most cars don't use any cryptography or strong security anywhere, only security by obscurity (aka protocols are secret and only the dealerships/authorized mechanics have access to the software). Which inevitably means it will leak at some point and get reverse engineered/cracked.

And re basic things - well, it depends on the car but for some you can do some truly scary stuff through the OBDII port. E.g. this Jeep model from 2016 or so (which is pretty recent) where the attackers were able to mess with brakes - while the car was moving. Or messing with the steering. The security in car industry is pretty much nonexistent, only designed to keep unauthorized repairmen out, not to actually stop any dedicated attackers.

https://www.wired.com/2016/08/jeep-hackers-return-high-speed-steering-acceleration-hacks/ (https://www.wired.com/2016/08/jeep-hackers-return-high-speed-steering-acceleration-hacks/)

E.g. this exists and is apparently popular:
https://www.mybluefin.co.uk/ (https://www.mybluefin.co.uk/)

Of course, a tiny dongle claiming to be able to reprogram (almost) any car and model is most likely BS.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: Mr. Scram on February 17, 2019, 10:24:06 am
What if the device actually works...  by making the driver being more careful on the gas pedal?   Recent research has shown that placebos work...   even if the patient knows he is getting a placebo!

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/10/27/499475288/is-it-still-a-placebo-when-it-works-and-you-know-its-a-placebo (https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/10/27/499475288/is-it-still-a-placebo-when-it-works-and-you-know-its-a-placebo)
What if the device works by making the driver think he can be more careless with the right foot, increasing consumption? Maybe even while making him thing it's actually better.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: Rerouter on February 17, 2019, 11:39:51 am
Depends on the model of car, but most vehicles expose all of there memories (even runtime RAM) via a special per manufacturer mode, Now I have 0 doubt the devices out there cannot possibly do what they are claiming, though they can kinda do something, even if its the wrong thing to do, Reset the ECU memory every time it starts up the the stored 100Km economy average is above what feels "normal" In my own experience this tends to make the fuel range and average economy values on most instrument clusters also reset, meaning for the first few minutes into a trip, it can seem like you have much more range, or more economy, because that average has been discarded.

I have been slowly digging into the manufacturer programming modes for other things, and there is a lot of copy-paste stuff going around where different car manufacturers use the same brand ECU's etc, And some much more scary things that could be used to make things seem more economic, e.g. most european instrument clusters, even if they use an analog fuel signal, has a test mode where you can set it to read a certain value via can. same for the range and economy displays, without the vehicle getting upset you can lie to the driver, You can alter the scaling of the RPM gauge, to make it seem like your running at lower RPM, and stuff I really would never want to see one of these device touch, shift the gearbox switching points dynamically.

As for security, some have recently started using magic tokens to enter these programming modes, this to me seemed to be spurred by the Airbag Controllers before anything else, but I feel that was in response to people resetting them after an accident to sell write off cars. however per year model these tokens seem fixed, Its only really the indentured repair manufactures, e.g. certain tractor companies that are doing things like signing firmware updates and making it a right pain to enter the programming modes, (VS scattered CRC for blocks in most vehicles)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: Lockon Stratos on February 17, 2019, 03:07:32 pm
@EEVblog
Even if that thingy wanted to program the ECU the car needs to be a very old one because most new ones wont talk to devices that arent running the official SW from the car manufacturer(aside from a few basic things OFC)....

That doesn't mean you can't make a dongle that will talk to a particular make/model of a car and actually do something (whether useful or not). For some cars it is easier than others. Most cars don't use any cryptography or strong security anywhere, only security by obscurity (aka protocols are secret and only the dealerships/authorized mechanics have access to the software). Which inevitably means it will leak at some point and get reverse engineered/cracked.

And re basic things - well, it depends on the car but for some you can do some truly scary stuff through the OBDII port. E.g. this Jeep model from 2016 or so (which is pretty recent) where the attackers were able to mess with brakes - while the car was moving. Or messing with the steering. The security in car industry is pretty much nonexistent, only designed to keep unauthorized repairmen out, not to actually stop any dedicated attackers.

https://www.wired.com/2016/08/jeep-hackers-return-high-speed-steering-acceleration-hacks/ (https://www.wired.com/2016/08/jeep-hackers-return-high-speed-steering-acceleration-hacks/)

E.g. this exists and is apparently popular:
https://www.mybluefin.co.uk/ (https://www.mybluefin.co.uk/)

Of course, a tiny dongle claiming to be able to reprogram (almost) any car and model is most likely BS.
Well i only have experience with only one manufacturer but their system is pretty strict, you cant change anything that has electronics in it without an online connection to the main server god knows where. Its actually so strict that even in production a specialized tool is needed to get all the new parts to talk to each other...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: Rerouter on February 17, 2019, 03:14:33 pm
I can guess the vehicle your talking about is 1 of 3 brands, My top guesses would be Volvo or Mercedes,

Of the manufacturer diagnostic tools I have seen, its generally only new commissioning of units that need the online part to pull the latest firmware, I've been stuck on site for about 3 hours while I slowly watched the progress bar increase for the download on an out of data firmware on 1 module of a truck, for the next truck I asked the tech to try switching off wifi after he had logged in to the tool, and he could change anything without the forced firmware update. (had 15 trucks to do fittings to over the course of a week, and no body has the time for 3 hours per vehicle of downloads due to the software not caching any of the downloads)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: Lockon Stratos on February 17, 2019, 03:20:31 pm
None of those, this manufacturer do not have trucks.

/EDIT
And you cannot disconnect from the network if you want to install any new parts(hell, maybe by now it is mandatory to be connected to the network the whole time).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: janoc on February 17, 2019, 08:26:21 pm
Well i only have experience with only one manufacturer but their system is pretty strict, you cant change anything that has electronics in it without an online connection to the main server god knows where. Its actually so strict that even in production a specialized tool is needed to get all the new parts to talk to each other...

BMW does this. And there are tons of published hacks and workarounds for it online, so that you can "code" and program the various bits and pieces to work with the car when you change them without going to the dealer (and paying top $$$ for them doing it). E.g. my boss was replacing one module that controls most of the lights in the car recently and reprogrammed it using a generic dongle and a copy of the manufacturer's sw downloaded online. So much for such "security".
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: Lockon Stratos on February 18, 2019, 03:54:28 am
BMW does this. And there are tons of published hacks and workarounds for it online, so that you can "code" and program the various bits and pieces to work with the car when you change them without going to the dealer (and paying top $$$ for them doing it). E.g. my boss was replacing one module that controls most of the lights in the car recently and reprogrammed it using a generic dongle and a copy of the manufacturer's sw downloaded online. So much for such "security".
Thats a pretty big gamble right there, if he borks it then the dealer wont touch it and he will have a very expensive paper weight... :D AFAIK in case of the manufacturer i know even if you have the software from the web you still need the online connection to the main server to get the codes so the car will talk to the new part.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: langwadt on February 18, 2019, 04:34:16 am
Hypermilers know about OBD2 gadgets that really can boost MPG - the Scangauge being one of the earliest ones. Quite a bit more complex than a box with flashing LEDs, but not that much more complex.

afaikt Scangauge is just a monitor

Of which, what I would like to see is a gadget that uses GPS data and computer vision to learn the timing of the traffic lights and inform the driver to speed up or slow down in order to maximize the chances of getting to it on green. Not at all an easy task but it can save a lot of time as well as energy.

traffic lights are usually timed to do that at regular speeds already
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: German_EE on February 18, 2019, 05:19:25 am
I like to watch car mechanics because I learn stuff, and in years of doing this I have only seen a mechanic use the OBD port once.

We had lost a key so we needed to a) delete the lost key from the ECU list and b) program a new key. The Ford mechanic had to use a Ford issued notebook plugged into the car and running the security software, and this would only work when also connected to the Ford servers over the Internet.

The cost of all this? Enough to ensure that I will NEVER lose a car key ever again.

Random dongles from China don't have a chance.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: janoc on February 18, 2019, 06:15:59 am
Thats a pretty big gamble right there, if he borks it then the dealer wont touch it and he will have a very expensive paper weight... :D AFAIK in case of the manufacturer i know even if you have the software from the web you still need the online connection to the main server to get the codes so the car will talk to the new part.

Yeah, but also keep in mind that replacing a broken module (which literally just bricks itself in software because of a power spike or whatever - it can be reset and made to work again) is maybe 30 minutes of work + cost of the module.

If you go to the dealer, they will charge you several hundreds of euro for literally plugging in a dongle into that OBDII port and clicking a few buttons. I am not saying it is a smart thing to do, especially for people who don't have much clue about electronics, but for the owners of the older, out of warranty cars, the financial motivation to tinker like this is strong.


Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: Mr. Scram on February 18, 2019, 10:40:30 am
The most painful part is that's it's essentially DRM to prevent lawful owners from repairing their cars, while doing little in the way of actual security. Cars are still full of security holes, with hackers remotely activating brakes and throttle by means of a laptop.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: amyk on February 18, 2019, 03:23:11 pm
My car doesn't even have a computer, much less an OBD2 port :-//
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: SilverSolder on February 18, 2019, 05:03:46 pm
Cars are still full of security holes

That's probably why they start and run reliably...

At work, the IT guys tell me 99.9% of the problems they deal with are to do with security.  [Not hackers trying to get in...  but security related software and systems causing problems for legitimate users]
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: Rerouter on February 18, 2019, 06:05:31 pm
Your confusing the type of security, this is about basic things like buffer overflows, and only really for the non physical access hacks, e.g. way too many canbus connected radios can be used to gain read / write access to canbus via bluetooth or wifi without authentication. So far i have not seen any ECU's that get upset from byte extension, etc, because the transceiver discards everything that isn't valid.

For physical access, how they currently set things up and have workshops able to access or edit things prevent them from ever really locking it down, Just like how a certain line of chips have a programming method documented, if you dig in deep enough you can also find the programming methods for ECU's, ABS modules, Instrument Clusters, Etc, all via Canbus or through a proxy connection for most parts these days, as that is generally how they commission them on the assembly line.

The hard part is finding the definition of what byte controls what function or switch, how a given modules memory is segmented, etc, this is why most documented hacks only touch on the easy stuff like broadcasting standard messages like throttle position request, brake application request, gear selection request, This is the easy picking, especially if you have physical access, as its just replay attacks with well documented specifications. some cars even have fun things like steering wheel angle messages for full fly by wire vehicles. but you could repeat this "hack" with a ELM327 and an hour of your time on just about any car post 2003
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: SilverSolder on February 18, 2019, 08:14:53 pm
The point is that adding security also adds extra layers of things that can go wrong and prevent the car you are trying to fix from working for the authorized owner/user.  That is the problem the IT guys spend their lives on -  encryption, configuring firewall rules, etc. etc.

I don't think it is a good idea (awful design, actually) that the radio can be used to hack into a car, but on the other hand if someone wants to mess with you and your car, they could let the air out of the tires or key the car, or partly cut the brake lines, or the steering linkages, or any number of bad things.  The only real security is for your car to be garaged and watched whenever you are not driving it...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1181 - Car ECO OBD2 Fuel Saver SCAM
Post by: johnlsenchak on February 28, 2019, 03:44:27 am


Another  Big Clive  video  !


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB810U7j77k&feature=em-uploademail (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB810U7j77k&feature=em-uploademail)