Author Topic: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!  (Read 9565 times)

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2019, 11:44:47 pm »
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Lastly, your comment with regards to our ability to deliver this product. As stated in the campaign page, we already have working models and a production line that is producing 2000 units per month, we only came to Kickstarter, to raise the capital to expand our production process and make the product more widely available to the general public around the world.

They are already making 2000 units a month!

Yet they, by their own admission in the comments and updates are only now doing actual room testing and are in the process of sending it out to independent test houses :palm:

 


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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2019, 11:48:50 pm »
It uses long infrared

 

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2019, 11:51:16 pm »
More, because you never know when they'll decide to start pulling comments

 

Offline HalFET

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2019, 12:03:56 am »
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Lastly, your comment with regards to our ability to deliver this product. As stated in the campaign page, we already have working models and a production line that is producing 2000 units per month, we only came to Kickstarter, to raise the capital to expand our production process and make the product more widely available to the general public around the world.

They are already making 2000 units a month!

Yet they, by their own admission in the comments and updates are only now doing actual room testing and are in the process of sending it out to independent test houses :palm:

This might apply:


But I was skimming around the internet for infrared panel heaters and found these: https://www.tectake.co.uk/infrared-heater-850-w-with-thermostat-401972 The product itself isn't that interesting, but the description very much is:
Quote
For infrared heaters, the room’s volume is not relevant, but the actual area of the enclosure. Usually, this includes the four walls, floor and ceiling. To simplify your calculation, we limit the whole thing to the base surface, i.e. the size of the room. To do this, you need the length and width of the room. Suppose the room is 6 metres x 5 metres, that equates a room size of 30 m². These 30 m² of floor space are now multiplied with an *output value of 75 Watt per m² (up to 2.60 m height). Amounts to: 30m² x 75 Watt/m² = 2250 Watt.Therefore, you need a heating capacity of 2250 Watt. You can now choose these as either 2 x 900 Watt + 1 x 450 Watt = 2250 Watt or as 2 x 1200 Watt = 2400 Watt.Higher wattage does not mean that more power is consumed. On the contrary, this rather results in faster heating, so that the infrared heater is shut off earlier.Please note that this output figure of 75 Watt/m² was calculated based on a ceiling height of up to 2.60m. Should the room be higher, add an additional output value of 5 Watt/m² per 5 cm. At a ceiling height of 3 metres, that would equate an additional 40 Watt. The result would be an *output level of 115 Watt/m². Multiplied with the floor area, 30 m² in this example, this amounts to: 30 m² x 115 Watt/m² = 3450 Watt.Depending on the angles and corners of the room, you can now choose your matching heating panels. Thus a room in an L-shape requires at least 2 panels as a single panel’s rays would not reach the entire space. This can be clearly seen by shining a torch from a corner in the room. For not all walls are illuminated. Light is a ray after all and radiation heat works the same way. Using a second torch, you can now light up the entire room.Please note the impact radius of 3.50 meters. A torch loses its brightness the further away it is from the illuminated object. Infrared rays lose their intensity at a range of around 3-4 meters resulting in long heating periods.For rooms that are subject to greater humidity, such as bathrooms, for example, simply calculate twice the dimensions. That way, you will experience your baths like a swim in the sea. You won't freeze despite having wet skin. That is the advantage of infrared heating.

So yeah, you're only going to need at least 5 of the large Solus panels for the average sized living room.  :-DD
 

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2019, 12:09:46 am »
Plenty on aliexpress

 

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2019, 12:10:37 am »
So yeah, you're only going to need at least 5 of the large Solus panels for the average sized living room.  :-DD

But, but, graphene!
 
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Offline HalFET

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2019, 12:21:19 am »
But, but, graphene!

But I like my nano materials with more sulfide!  :'( 

And there's one important question we're forgetting here: do they use free-range artisanal-sourced bio-graphene from FSC-compliant charcoal or the industrial laser-ablated or worse chemical vapour deposited one? I want to be sure my graphene only comes from charcoal made from the highest quality Swedish evergreen trees and was manually exfoliated by seasonal workers wearing hemp shirts!
 
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Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2019, 12:27:07 am »
I think I have a nice use for this, put 4 legs on it, a nice pattern on the glass and you have a perfect warming tray to keep your food warm on the table. You know, just like the old warming tray you use, just with graphene, and not made by Salton and looking straight out of 1970 with the wood grain stickers.
 
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Offline jonovid

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2019, 12:33:54 am »
at least you can watch a plasma television.
Hobby of evil genius      basic knowledge of electronics
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2019, 12:40:56 am »
So yeah, you're only going to need at least 5 of the large Solus panels for the average sized living room.  :-DD
But, but, graphene!
I wonder how much is actually true about the graphene claim. Regular carbon will do just fine to make a resistive element. Another thing that would worry me is how long the product will last. The repeated heat & cold cycles will likely crack the paste at some point.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 12:44:14 am by nctnico »
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Offline frozenfrogz

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2019, 12:53:19 am »
This kind of product always reminds me of the inventions by Dr. Nobel Price from the Sesame Street.
In case you do not remember: Dr. Price keeps inventing stuff that already exists in his "far-off island laboratory", thinking it will be THE solution to a common problem (i.e. boots made entirely from water proof material, so you finally can walk in the rain without getting wet feet).
The same might be true with most "inventions" that hit the crowd funding platforms: People thinking they have a pretty smart idea while reinventing the wheel without actually validating against what is already out there.

In this case: Yes, electric heaters are more efficient in converting electric energy into heat radiation than heating water -> pumping water through a pipe system -> transfering heat from water filled radiators to the surrounding air. Of course they are comparing apples and pears...

Corrupted crowd funding projects and flat earth theory have something in common in that regard. :)
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Offline HalFET

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2019, 01:14:37 am »
In this case: Yes, electric heaters are more efficient in converting electric energy into heat radiation than heating water -> pumping water through a pipe system -> transfering heat from water filled radiators to the surrounding air. Of course they are comparing apples and pears...

Actually, I wouldn't be so quick to say that. If my flu-infested brain remembers correctly, power plants run around 60% efficiency. A condensation gas boiler (typical for European central heating systems) will do 80-90% efficiency, the (air-gaped) tubing used to transport the water to the radiator runs in the floor or ceiling, so all the "lost heat" is usually deposited straight into the room where you want it anyway. So unless you're in a country with abundant and cheap green electricity, the gas boiler is probably more economical and more environmentally friendly.
 

Offline frozenfrogz

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2019, 01:35:57 am »
I did not mean to use this as a valid (sane) example in terms of actual thermo dynamics, but to illustrate how their thought process might have been to come up with the crazy claims.

Maybe I should have phrased it differently: If you compare their product to a water based heating system and only count the amount of heat that directly affects the room you are doing the calculations on, you *might* be able to 'prove' the claims.
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Offline max_torque

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2019, 01:57:28 am »
Can we please, please get our terminology correct!

Efficiency is not the same as Effectiveness.  And for heat transfer systems the two, admittedly similar sounding, words refer to VERY different properties.

Any resistive electrical to thermal energy conversion system is intrinsically 100% efficient at turning electricity into heat energy. However, that 100% Efficient system could actually be 0% EFFECTIVE. For example, consider a coil of wire, heated by current passing through it.  Now put that coil of wire in a vacuum effectively stopping  convection and conduction, what happens to the wire?  The answer is, it probably melts!  If you put 100W of electrical energy in, the resistance of that wire turns that into 100 watts of heat, and if that heat cannot escape as fast as it is being put in, the temperature of the wire will climb, eventually till it melts.  This is because thermal transfer is driven by the thermal impedance AND the difference in temperature.  This should be obvious!

So, for a system to say heat a house, what actually matters?

Well we do want the greatest efficiency possible, ie for every watt we put in (in whatever form) we get a watt of heat out.  Well, hurrah, resistive electrical heaters are 100% efficient, so happy days, that one is solved

And Effectiveness?  This governs is the maximum heat flux (heating power) that can be driven out of the heater into it's environment for any given temperature difference.  Given that we don't want our heater to have to run at say the temperature of the sun (which manages to drive heat across millions of miles of space to burn your nose as you sit on a beach in summer....), or our heater to be larger than a car, high effectiveness is useful, but it DOES not change the efficiency of the system at all!

So please, can we stop saying "efficient" when we mean "effective"...... |O
 

Offline madires

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2019, 02:37:42 am »
Is Solus the radiator equivalent of audiophoolery? Or is it the Dunning–Kruger effect at work? I also see strong indications of a cognitive dissonance. It looks like Solus is in the same league as Batteroo and will provide great entertainment. >:D
 
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Offline Nusa

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2019, 03:06:49 am »
I don't know about Australia, but in the US heating with gas is typically far cheaper than heating with electricity. (Unless you've got electricity from your own solar/wind setup that is going to waste.)

My 1950's era 20,000 BTU natural gas top-vent wall heater is cheaper to use than any electric heating solution.
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2019, 03:16:37 am »
did you go over the safety aspect of having a cool artsy looking glass panel heated to 100c on a bench top or wall?

like i said thats going to burn small children and animals

It's like hanging a fucking griddle in your living room ?? who does that? did people lose their senses since the 1970's because of apple (they used to have cages on these things to mitigate burns and surface area of burns. Even for a new life form that thermal air currents and red hotness of the heating elements in a conventional heater seems at least suspicious or interesting enough to slow down (usually scary unless someone is really out there). This is like a booby trap. 

I burned my hand like hell when I was little because I decided to climb all over a semi truck and touched the vertical mufflers, at least that was hard to get to. If I had one of these in the living room I would probably look like two face.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 03:22:39 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline HalFET

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2019, 03:26:45 am »
did you go over the safety aspect of having a cool artsy looking glass panel heated to 100c on a bench top or wall?

like i said thats going to burn small children and animals

It's like hanging a fucking griddle in your living room ?? who does that? did people lose their senses since the 1970's because of apple (they used to have cages on these things to mitigate burns and surface area of burns. Even for a new life form that thermal air currents and red hotness of the heating elements in a conventional heater seems at least suspicious or interesting enough to slow down (usually scary unless someone is really out there). This is like a booby trap.

We used to have cast iron and diesel stoves in living rooms that went up way higher than that. They'll only touch it once.
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2019, 03:29:42 am »
can a piece of cast iron fall off the wall because someone decided to hang it on sheet rock hooks (that are not even installed properly) or fall on you because its positioned on a wobbly table? People probably won't even look for studs. It will prob be mounted on a painting string.

Those things weigh like 200 LB plus. IT's a different story. Those things kids avoid because it even look slike you will get hurt if you run next to it and bump into it because of kinetic energy alone (kids seem to realize this). Stoves just look dangerous. And they look scary (think home alone basement scene where he is always scared of the furnace).

This thing is small, quiet, does not smell, etc. And it can fall on you because its low mass.

I was around one of those too. I spent some time in a very very very ancient house when I was young in europe. But its different then a thin cool looking object (polished metal, glass, etc) being roaring hot.

Kid's already get hurt by TV's falling on them. But now imagine a TV @  100C+.  :scared:
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 03:36:48 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline madires

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2019, 03:39:56 am »
I don't know about Australia, but in the US heating with gas is typically far cheaper than heating with electricity. (Unless you've got electricity from your own solar/wind setup that is going to waste.)

My 1950's era 20,000 BTU natural gas top-vent wall heater is cheaper to use than any electric heating solution.

Exactly! We pay about 0.30 EUR/kWh. Gas or oil are more economical for heating.
 

Offline edgelog

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2019, 03:46:49 am »
I've seen "Watt per hour" several times here, and Dave even said it out loud in the video. There's no such thing. It's just "Watt".
 
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Offline daqq

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2019, 04:13:34 am »
Someone linked your video Dave! And it got a reply.
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Offline HalFET

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #48 on: March 03, 2019, 04:43:53 am »
can a piece of cast iron fall off the wall because someone decided to hang it on sheet rock hooks (that are not even installed properly) or fall on you because its positioned on a wobbly table? People probably won't even look for studs. It will prob be mounted on a painting string.

Those things weigh like 200 LB plus. IT's a different story. Those things kids avoid because it even look slike you will get hurt if you run next to it and bump into it because of kinetic energy alone (kids seem to realize this). Stoves just look dangerous. And they look scary (think home alone basement scene where he is always scared of the furnace).

This thing is small, quiet, does not smell, etc. And it can fall on you because its low mass.

I was around one of those too. I spent some time in a very very very ancient house when I was young in europe. But its different then a thin cool looking object (polished metal, glass, etc) being roaring hot.

Kid's already get hurt by TV's falling on them. But now imagine a TV @  100C+.  :scared:
There's always some loss at the side.  ;D

You also have people who are stupid enough to put up a dresser without a safety strap, if the primary argument is "think about the children" we should only allow padded objects to exist.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #49 on: March 03, 2019, 04:52:28 am »
For example, consider a coil of wire, heated by current passing through it.  Now put that coil of wire in a vacuum effectively stopping  convection and conduction, what happens to the wire?  The answer is, it probably melts!  If you put 100W of electrical energy in, the resistance of that wire turns that into 100 watts of heat, and if that heat cannot escape as fast as it is being put in, the temperature of the wire will climb, eventually till it melts.  This is because thermal transfer is driven by the thermal impedance AND the difference in temperature.  This should be obvious!
So make the wire out of tungsten in order to withstand the high temperatures. And rather than a plain glass bottle, shape it and aluminum coat part of it in order to reflect the heat in one direction. Those at least used to be available in stores (probably still are in many places), but some are trying to ban them for "poor efficiency".

I can see the radiator heater being inefficient at heating the space where it matters, especially with a tall ceiling, but there are loads of cheaper options that will do well. If installing a heat pump in the room is not an option, the next best option might actually still be a heat pump, directing the cold air upwards (counteracting heat rising and uselessly heating up the ceiling) and the warm air where you want it.
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