Author Topic: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!  (Read 9620 times)

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Offline justanothername

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #50 on: March 03, 2019, 06:41:40 am »
They should instead take old motherboards from the dumpster mount them inside a radiator housing and mine bitcoins, controlled by a thermostat.
Somewhat a more efficient heater because you do something with your energy before converting it to heat.
 

Offline pylo

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #51 on: March 03, 2019, 06:57:19 am »
Ok, while also seeing all the bullshit in the Solus campaign, I do think it can make heating more economical. By emitting a large portion of the heat as IR, it can give away heat faster - note, not more efficient, just faster. Meaning it warms up the same with the same power, but cools down faster. It has less thermal mass. So if your goal is then to get your small room up to a predefined temperature, you can turn off the radiator sooner. With traditional oil radiators, you'd turn off the radiator once you've reached your target temperature, at which point your radiator has still a lot of heat stored, so in the end you're going to over-heat your room and you've needlessly wasted electric power. If you have less "thermal mass" in the radiator, you can get away with less redundant heating, hence being "more efficient" (economically, not physically).

I'm pretty sure this is the theory behind Solus, but of course any decent PID regulator could take care of the above problem even with traditional oil radiators. The problem is: most mobile radiators don't come with one. Most don't even come with a regulator at all (just a static power level knob), and those that do, do simple target-temperature-threshold switching and have no PID control. Solus, being a low-thermal-mass radiator, could probably create a more accurately working PID regulator for it, and that is where the operating-cost advantage should come from.

How much saving that actually amounts to? Dunno, but 80% seems way too much for me, that part is probably just BS again. Not even mentioning that IR heat won't heat air up (at least not directly).
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 07:02:33 am by pylo »
 

Offline GigaJoe

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #52 on: March 03, 2019, 07:11:48 am »
as many noted, it more like a radiant heater.  So, it would be comparable to that one:
https://www.amazon.com/Optimus-H-4110-9-Inch-Dish-Heater/dp/B000GG8DTS

aaand i would admit a mirror dish are much more efficient design, anyway, with the same power consumption.

 

Offline justanothername

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #53 on: March 03, 2019, 07:12:22 am »
at which point your radiator has still a lot of heat stored, so in the end you're going to over-heat your room and you've needlessly wasted electric power. If you have less "thermal mass" in the radiator, you can get away with less redundant heating, hence being "more efficient" (economically, not physically).

I think it does not matter. You have a mean temperature, and your temperature control loop and maybe, in your case with the high thermal mass, a regulator oscillation. But for the averaged mean temperature you need the same amount of energy, no matter what you do. The needed amount of energy is always proportional to the thermal conductivity of your room to the cold air outside.
Insulation therefore is the only thing that helps. In my case i like the insulation as near as possible to the body, sweaters and socks and so on.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #54 on: March 03, 2019, 07:18:09 am »
I'm pretty sure this is the theory behind Solus, but of course any decent PID regulator could take care of the above problem even with traditional oil radiators. The problem is: most mobile radiators don't come with one. Most don't even come with a regulator at all (just a static power level knob), and those that do, do simple target-temperature-threshold switching and have no PID control. Solus, being a low-thermal-mass radiator, could probably create a more accurately working PID regulator for it, and that is where the operating-cost advantage should come from.
No. A room is likely to have way more thermal mass than a tiny radiator. And even if the radiator works longer than necessary the temperature will go up and only when it drops below the setpoint the radiator will be switched on again. There will be no loss in efficiency. Just less comfortable due to larger temperature variations.
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Offline pylo

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #55 on: March 03, 2019, 07:22:05 am »
at which point your radiator has still a lot of heat stored, so in the end you're going to over-heat your room and you've needlessly wasted electric power. If you have less "thermal mass" in the radiator, you can get away with less redundant heating, hence being "more efficient" (economically, not physically).

I think it does not matter. You have a mean temperature, and your temperature control loop and maybe, in your case with the high thermal mass, a regulator oscillation. But for the averaged mean temperature you need the same amount of energy, no matter what you do. The needed amount of energy is always proportional to the thermal conductivity of your room to the cold air outside.
Insulation therefore is the only thing that helps. In my case i like the insulation as near as possible to the body, sweaters and socks and so on.

Yes, for an average temperature over a long time period in a room you'll need the same power either way. But you're forgetting that people will set an average temperature in the room so that they're never cold, and so if you have large temperature oscillations due to your slow control loop, people will set higher average temperatures. So a low-thermal-mass radiator, that potentially creates less oscillations (and hence a more "even" temperature over time), can use less power for the same comfort (because the user sets lower mean temperatures).
 

Offline richnormand

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #56 on: March 03, 2019, 07:28:57 am »
Two comments/concerns here.

First is the use of the graphene paste. Much like the early days of carbon nanotube there were several studies when the tech started go out of the lab and went in production with kilogram quantity. Several well documented studies looked at the issues relating to breathing them. Some were toxic due the the chemicals residues used and some were toxic due to size and could permeate cell walls. Once in your lungs they could stay there forever. It took several years to sort it out. The hepa filters were not efficient at cleaning the air in the lab and exhaust to the outside was ruled out by the safety committee. Now forward several years ahead and should the paste they used start to dry out will the heather become an active source of nanoparticles in your room that you will breathe in? Assuming the paste does contain graphene to start with....

Second is that there are alternatives to this format already on the market.
A combination of no fan noise, both IR radiation and some natural air convection around the unit may have some advantage for "perceived" comfort

We used to have in the 60's a heather made on a 1m by 0.8m plate glass that was coated with a metallic thick film and two electrodes at each ends. It was very comfortable in the cottage in winter since it would get warm and heat the surrounding air via convection and emit IR that you could feel immediately several meters away. Eventually the glass cracked violently in the middle of the night. Sounded like someone threw a rock on a large window.

These formats are still available:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heatable_glass
https://www.techbriefs.com/component/content/article/tb/techbriefs/materials/3363
http://www.isquaredrelement.com/pdf/New%20and%20Improved%20Float%20Glass%20Element%20WDB%20%2012-23-15.pdf
http://www.egpglass.com/products/thermique-heated-glass/

« Last Edit: March 04, 2019, 04:35:07 am by richnormand »
 

Offline pylo

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #57 on: March 03, 2019, 07:40:56 am »
I'm pretty sure this is the theory behind Solus, but of course any decent PID regulator could take care of the above problem even with traditional oil radiators. The problem is: most mobile radiators don't come with one. Most don't even come with a regulator at all (just a static power level knob), and those that do, do simple target-temperature-threshold switching and have no PID control. Solus, being a low-thermal-mass radiator, could probably create a more accurately working PID regulator for it, and that is where the operating-cost advantage should come from.
No. A room is likely to have way more thermal mass than a tiny radiator. And even if the radiator works longer than necessary the temperature will go up and only when it drops below the setpoint the radiator will be switched on again. There will be no loss in efficiency. Just less comfortable due to larger temperature variations.

You didn't fully get what I said.

As you say you can expect higher temperature variations with a large thermal mass radiator (though this need not necessarily be the case, it is far from unlikely). That will cause the user to set a higher target temperature, so that even in the "cold" phases of the regulation the user won't feel cold. This means a higher average temperature, which means higher electric consumption. The electric-watts-to-thermal-btu conversion ratio is still the same of course, but you're heating more than necessary, hence you're economically less friendly (and financially less efficient).

EDIT: This has nothing to do with graphene though, that part of he campaign is just complete and utter bogus, unless it is *the* material that emits IR+convection heat in the "optimal" (whatever that is) proportions. Unlikely, as otherwise they would have said so, I guess.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 07:55:01 am by pylo »
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #58 on: March 03, 2019, 08:01:59 am »
can a piece of cast iron fall off the wall because someone decided to hang it on sheet rock hooks (that are not even installed properly) or fall on you because its positioned on a wobbly table? People probably won't even look for studs. It will prob be mounted on a painting string.

Those things weigh like 200 LB plus. IT's a different story. Those things kids avoid because it even look slike you will get hurt if you run next to it and bump into it because of kinetic energy alone (kids seem to realize this). Stoves just look dangerous. And they look scary (think home alone basement scene where he is always scared of the furnace).

This thing is small, quiet, does not smell, etc. And it can fall on you because its low mass.

I was around one of those too. I spent some time in a very very very ancient house when I was young in europe. But its different then a thin cool looking object (polished metal, glass, etc) being roaring hot.

Kid's already get hurt by TV's falling on them. But now imagine a TV @  100C+.  :scared:
There's always some loss at the side.  ;D

You also have people who are stupid enough to put up a dresser without a safety strap, if the primary argument is "think about the children" we should only allow padded objects to exist.

I mean, when you start combing hot, top heavy, fragile (glass) and poor support by design and by sales recommendation you are really really starting to ask for trouble. You usually only have only two of those.

Like a waffle iron is pretty dangerous in one  regard but its heavy, sits well on a table top, does not have incredible surface area,  etc.

I mean and their also lying their ass completely off with all the thermal bullshit. Its just a nice looking heater thats IMO dangerous for a home.

Like I swear if you hung a griddle off your wall I don't think you would feel too safe in that room?



Like seriously think about it. Is that a good idea to do in the home, to hang a griddle on the wall like its a painting? or have it sit on a coffee table like a flat screen TV?

Do you have like a loaded bear trap on your coffee table as a display piece or something?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 08:09:40 am by coppercone2 »
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #59 on: March 03, 2019, 08:28:49 am »
I did not mean to use this as a valid (sane) example in terms of actual thermo dynamics, but to illustrate how their thought process might have been to come up with the crazy claims.

Maybe I should have phrased it differently: If you compare their product to a water based heating system and only count the amount of heat that directly affects the room you are doing the calculations on, you *might* be able to 'prove' the claims.

But they claim 95% compared to eletric heaters as well:

Quote
SOLUS will save you approximately 80% off the cost of your heating (compared with conventional water based radiators) and over 95% off the cost of your heating (if you heat your home with other electric radiators).
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #60 on: March 03, 2019, 08:31:09 am »
did you go over the safety aspect of having a cool artsy looking glass panel heated to 100c on a bench top or wall?

like i said thats going to burn small children and animals

It's like hanging a fucking griddle in your living room ?? who does that? did people lose their senses since the 1970's because of apple (they used to have cages on these things to mitigate burns and surface area of burns. Even for a new life form that thermal air currents and red hotness of the heating elements in a conventional heater seems at least suspicious or interesting enough to slow down (usually scary unless someone is really out there). This is like a booby trap. 

I burned my hand like hell when I was little because I decided to climb all over a semi truck and touched the vertical mufflers, at least that was hard to get to. If I had one of these in the living room I would probably look like two face.

They are going to supply a protective cover!

 

Online nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #61 on: March 03, 2019, 08:32:42 am »
I'm pretty sure this is the theory behind Solus, but of course any decent PID regulator could take care of the above problem even with traditional oil radiators. The problem is: most mobile radiators don't come with one. Most don't even come with a regulator at all (just a static power level knob), and those that do, do simple target-temperature-threshold switching and have no PID control. Solus, being a low-thermal-mass radiator, could probably create a more accurately working PID regulator for it, and that is where the operating-cost advantage should come from.
No. A room is likely to have way more thermal mass than a tiny radiator. And even if the radiator works longer than necessary the temperature will go up and only when it drops below the setpoint the radiator will be switched on again. There will be no loss in efficiency. Just less comfortable due to larger temperature variations.
You didn't fully get what I said.

As you say you can expect higher temperature variations with a large thermal mass radiator (though this need not necessarily be the case, it is far from unlikely). That will cause the user to set a higher target temperature, so that even in the "cold" phases of the regulation the user won't feel cold. This means a higher average temperature, which means higher electric consumption.
Even simple electric heaters with mechanical switches have a small enough hysteresis to keep the temperature constant enough in a room. And again: the thermal mass of any radiator will be much lower than the room and everything which is in it. The situation you are sketching is purely hypothetical; it doesn't exist in the real world.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 08:34:40 am by nctnico »
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Offline aram

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #62 on: March 03, 2019, 09:50:34 am »
Apart from the Kickstarter campaign being a total fraud, these things are positively awful. Some relatives of mine were scammed by people selling exactly the same device (this scam seems popular in Romania), so I had the misfortune of seeing the device in action. Or rather, I failed to see anything, because 200-300-400W is NOTHING, it's simply not enough. An idle person radiates 100W, a small candle radiates 70W. My electric oven is 5.5kW. The gas boiler that heated my old apartment was 24kW, and until I added an extra layer of thermal insulation outside the unit, I wished I'd have bought the 34kW unit.

And Dave is right, the majority of the puny amount of generated heat goes into the wall. If you have a cold room, the walls will be colder than the air (otherwise the room would heat up from the walls and you would not require heating). Several hours after the damn device is activated, the room is still cold, but the wall behind the unit is warm to the touch. Completely hopeless design.

By the way, it's "heat capacity", I don't know who coined the term "thermal mass" and why.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 10:00:46 am by aram »
 

Offline MT

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #63 on: March 03, 2019, 09:51:59 am »
Have anyone mentioned graphite yet? Solus claim graphene paste but thats more likely graphite paste. Graphene however is defined as a single layer of carbon atoms arranged in a hexagonal lattice and not a paste and would be transparent. A graphene heating element would be interesting, i assume it wouldn't work very well. :popcorn:

A typical graphite paste is foamed graphite (purification method of graphite after mining) mixed with a clay which often are pressed into pencils and other commodity things.

I bet Solus element would not be covered by house insurances in the current format (cover less) despite their claim to EN standard.

This Solus Maxim Interbrink dude portray him selfs as classics fraudster, con artist making things up along the way.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 12:18:58 pm by MT »
 

Offline richnormand

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #64 on: March 03, 2019, 10:22:47 am »
I was at the Graphene conference in Barcelona two years ago and there was an interesting paper showing that a lot of companies claiming graphene were not actually graphene,  based on several material analysis checks such as Raman spectroscopy, EDX/XRF, surface laser test, etc... 
So at the end of the day we do not really know what is in that "paste" do we?
 

Offline HalFET

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #65 on: March 03, 2019, 10:35:33 am »
I mean, when you start combing hot, top heavy, fragile (glass) and poor support by design and by sales recommendation you are really really starting to ask for trouble. You usually only have only two of those.

Like a waffle iron is pretty dangerous in one  regard but its heavy, sits well on a table top, does not have incredible surface area,  etc.

I mean and their also lying their ass completely off with all the thermal bullshit. Its just a nice looking heater thats IMO dangerous for a home.

Like I swear if you hung a griddle off your wall I don't think you would feel too safe in that room?



Like seriously think about it. Is that a good idea to do in the home, to hang a griddle on the wall like its a painting? or have it sit on a coffee table like a flat screen TV?

Do you have like a loaded bear trap on your coffee table as a display piece or something?

If it's mounted properly so it doesn't fall off? Sure.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #66 on: March 03, 2019, 10:55:13 am »
Or rather, I failed to see anything, because 200-300-400W is NOTHING, it's simply not enough.
The radiated heat coming off a 75W reflector incandescent bulb is quite significant, and those are commonly available up to 250W for actual heating applications. Put it on a dimmer to throttle it to exactly what's needed and that would increase the lifetime substantially.
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Offline electromotive

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #67 on: March 03, 2019, 11:39:14 am »
They've got to make sure they orient the graphene shmoo properly, otherwise graphene goes from radiating heat to being an incredible insulator.
 

Offline MT

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #68 on: March 03, 2019, 12:19:51 pm »
Solus claimed factory address, seams to be some worn out sovjet era shoe manufacturing building:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Gan%C4%ABbu+dambis+24,+Zieme%C4%BCu+rajons,+R%C4%ABga,+LV-1005,+Latvia/@56.9824012,24.1181456,3a,75y,119.49h,93.71t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXyYd5IO_SI4D-YADdwTDzg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x46eecfa23410cae9:0x2a8399b56282781b!8m2!3d56.982265!4d24.1186144
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 12:21:59 pm by MT »
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #69 on: March 03, 2019, 01:12:53 pm »
Looking at this company for instance:

https://www.theglobalgraphenegroup.com/thermal-paste

looks like the form of graphene as a paste is typically used as thermal paste. I can see how it has high thermal conductivity, but I'm not sure how it would act as an heating element at this point (but I must admit I haven't looked at Solus' claims extensively as the 95% off was already hilarious.)

The tempered glass - isn't that what's used on infrared cooking stoves? I guess that lets infrared light pass with no issues, but as to heat, it has poor thermal conductivity as Dave said. On those stoves, it's explicitely choosen to stay cold outside of the heated spots. I can see how that would help their "radiators" be colder on the surface than other heaters but are they really infrared heaters?

They claim their radiators emit infrared heat. According to Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared_heater
Does Solus really qualify as a so-called "infrared heater"? Sounds a bit unclear to me.

They also claim "most electrical radiators reach 100°C surface temperatures". Hello?  ;D
 

Offline electromotive

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #70 on: March 03, 2019, 05:05:11 pm »
Solus claimed factory address, seams to be some worn out sovjet era shoe manufacturing building

It seems to be broken up into smaller spaces. It has that "mob operation in a warehouse" vibe.
 

Offline daqq

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #71 on: March 03, 2019, 06:09:15 pm »
Quote
Solus claimed factory address, seams to be some worn out sovjet era shoe manufacturing building:
It's actually pretty common to see old 'soviet era' buildings and manufacturing plants re-purposed for this kind of thing - renting out to small companies, even with multiple companies sharing the same building.
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Offline MT

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #72 on: March 03, 2019, 09:06:37 pm »
Quote
Solus claimed factory address, seams to be some worn out sovjet era shoe manufacturing building:
It's actually pretty common to see old 'soviet era' buildings and manufacturing plants re-purposed for this kind of thing - renting out to small companies, even with multiple companies sharing the same building.
Yes i know that, but i wanted to induce some more bad vibes for those in the west who dont know about Sovjet! >:D
 

Offline MT

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #73 on: March 03, 2019, 09:24:03 pm »
Quote
=SiliconWizard link=topic=172401.msg2236977#msg2236977 date=1551579173]
Looking at this company for instance:
https://www.theglobalgraphenegroup.com/thermal-paste
looks like the form of graphene as a paste is typically used as thermal paste. I can see how it has high thermal conductivity, but I'm not sure how it would act as an heating element at this point (but I must admit I haven't looked at Solus' claims extensively as the 95% off was already hilarious.)

Strange how the definition of one single atom layer of carbons suddenly is misused to turn it into a paste. ::) While it for past 50 years been labeled as graphite paste. Perhaps sales goes up?! The Noble price in 2010 for graphene:
https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/physics/2010/press-release/
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 09:27:40 pm by MT »
 

Offline Cnoob

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Re: EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!
« Reply #74 on: March 04, 2019, 01:23:11 am »
A couple of weeks ago I purchased a heater from
https://cpc.farnell.com/daewoo/hea1417/quartz-heater-800w/dp/HG01048

Because they were cheap £8.28 I bought my mum one and took it down to her.

Why would you even consider spending 300 euros on a low wattage space heater, let alone this 10 kilos of glass and some cpu heatsink paste?

PS you can even find glass weight calculators online as well as cheap heaters, Laws of thermodynamics, and how to heat a room efficiently.https://www.wikihow.com/Efficiently-Heat-a-Room

In other words I do not understand people buying into this.


 
 


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