Author Topic: EEVblog #390 - Mantis Elite Microscope Review (Read 58383 times)

EEVblog · « **on:** November 24, 2012, 09:43:10 pm »

Dave.

Salas · « **Reply #1 on:** November 24, 2012, 10:55:06 pm »

27:25 what was that you said you can see in there after you said its Utopia?

nitro2k01 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 24, 2012, 11:08:05 pm »

Quote from: Salas on November 24, 2012, 10:55:06 pm

27:25 what was that you said you can see in there after you said its Utopia?

Oompa Loompa. Charlie and the Chocolate Factory reference.

Isn't the LED light just a DC voltage jack? Wouldn't it be trivial to add an external PWM or current control?

Salas · « **Reply #3 on:** November 24, 2012, 11:17:02 pm »

Never watched that film beyond its first minutes. Cheers.

mikeselectricstuff · « **Reply #4 on:** November 24, 2012, 11:19:02 pm »

Quote from: nitro2k01 on November 24, 2012, 11:08:05 pm

Quote from: Salas on November 24, 2012, 10:55:06 pm
27:25 what was that you said you can see in there after you said its Utopia?
Oompa Loompa. Charlie and the Chocolate Factory reference.

Isn't the LED light just a DC voltage jack? Wouldn't it be trivial to add an external PWM or current control?

Yes, but for what they charge it would have been nice to include it.
Having said that I've never felt the need to dim the light on my Mantis Compact. You could always plug it into your bench PSU on the odd occasion.

MartinX · « **Reply #5 on:** November 25, 2012, 12:47:57 am »

We have a number of Mantis Compact at work, I think it was the first version with LEDs as light source. After a while the LEDs started to die and the light became dim and blueish, the light assembly was replaced on most of them but recently I discovered that one of the least used microscopes had failing LEDs. I found out that a new light source costs 280$ so I took the failing one apart and found it was a horse shoe shaped circuit board with 20 LEDs on it and four resistor networks and one power connector, that was all. I measured the current trough the LEDs and they crammed 40mA through each LED, that seemed a bit to much for a 5mm LED and that is probably why they were failing.

Feeling a little grumpy about the price of the replacement light and the fact they were failing because of poor engineering decisions I decided to replace the LEDs on the old board and I managed to bodge in a 1N4004 diode in series with the power connector to drop the voltage a little. The hole operation was relatively easy and the current dropped to 26mA which is still a bit high but under the absolute maximum of 30mA in the data sheet. There are a bunch of plastic parts aligning the LEDs so focusing their beams is not a problem, after screwing everything back together again it worked perfectly.

I used these LEDs as replacements: https://www.elfa.se/elfa3~se_sv/elfa/init.do?item=75-100-21&toc=20292
When I compared the old and new LEDs (under the microscope of course) I found they looked exactly the same, the internal construction of the metal parts, the bond wires, the colour of the phosphorus layer, could not find anything different on the Sloan LEDs I used. Do the manufacturers all use the same tooling?

Other that that there have been no problems with the microscopes we have and they are really excellent to work with.

nicknails · « **Reply #6 on:** November 25, 2012, 01:22:14 am »

They have an older version in sick bay on ST Voyager

gregariz · « **Reply #7 on:** November 25, 2012, 01:33:38 am »

Mantis's are really common all over the industry, but there are a number of others that are really common as well, usually radial arm binocular scopes from fuji or white etc.. I have one workmate that swears by them and another that hates them so its kind of a personal preference thing. I will say that I've found the low fatigue thing is real with them and is a plus. On the downsides I've always found their plastic construction a bit junky and they will tend to develop alot of creaks as time goes by. Also the magnification is a bit on the low side I find these days for the small pitched components. I'm kind of on the fence with them, not quite sure what I would buy if I were looking for a new scope. I kind of like the newer video systems just for low fatigue inspection.

IanB · « **Reply #8 on:** November 25, 2012, 02:07:22 am »

I can't imagine why you would want an expensive optical microscope for inspection? Surely a hand held camera on a wand and a big monitor would be much more convenient and far less expensive? I have found the macro setting on my camera and then viewing the image at full size shows me much more fine detail than I can see with the naked eye. A still camera is no good for production use of course, but a video camera would yield the same detail.

Where it seems stereo microscopes have the advantage is for actually working under them, positioning parts and soldering rather than inspecting finished work for faults. It's harder to do that with the flat view from a camera.

gregariz · « **Reply #9 on:** November 25, 2012, 05:18:11 am »

Quote from: IanB on November 25, 2012, 02:07:22 am

I can't imagine why you would want an expensive optical microscope for inspection? Surely a hand held camera on a wand and a big monitor would be much more convenient and far less expensive? I have found the macro setting on my camera and then viewing the image at full size shows me much more fine detail than I can see with the naked eye. A still camera is no good for production use of course, but a video camera would yield the same detail.

Where it seems stereo microscopes have the advantage is for actually working under them, positioning parts and soldering rather than inspecting finished work for faults. It's harder to do that with the flat view from a camera.

Its kind of hard... as I said.. I'm on the fence... I was using a Mantis recently on some 0.35mm pitch IC's for soldering. I flicked it over to the x8 (or x10 cant remember) and it just wasn't quite enough. Maybe my eyes aren't as young as they once were, but I found that I just couldn't inspect the job as I would have liked.... it was right on the edge, and unlike the binocular systems you don't have a fine height adjustment ... you have to move the whole head which is a pain. But yes I agree... for inspection I just prefer to look at a large monitor driven by a camera.

Smokey · « **Reply #10 on:** November 25, 2012, 05:29:49 am »

check out the promo video from Vision Engineering on youtube...

The highlights are the creepy pupil morph animation at 0:50 seconds, and the slab of hair transplant skin at 1:07. Strange!

EEVblog · « **Reply #11 on:** November 25, 2012, 06:54:07 am »

Quote from: nicknails on November 25, 2012, 01:22:14 am

They have an older version in sick bay on ST Voyager

LOL! Engineering prop fail!

Dave.

firewalker · « **Reply #12 on:** November 25, 2012, 06:56:24 am »

Is it an actual Vision Engineering device?

Alexander.

EEVblog · « **Reply #13 on:** November 25, 2012, 06:56:41 am »

Quote from: gregariz on November 25, 2012, 05:18:11 am

Its kind of hard... as I said.. I'm on the fence... I was using a Mantis recently on some 0.35mm pitch IC's for soldering. I flicked it over to the x8 (or x10 cant remember) and it just wasn't quite enough. Maybe my eyes aren't as young as they once were, but I found that I just couldn't inspect the job as I would have liked.... it was right on the edge, and unlike the binocular systems you don't have a fine height adjustment ... you have to move the whole head which is a pain. But yes I agree... for inspection I just prefer to look at a large monitor driven by a camera.

Yes, x8 or even x10 isn't quite enough to really inspect a 0.35mm pitch IC.
Vision Engineering told me that any lens greater than x10 really needs the compact stand, as it has finer vertical adjustment than the Universal or Articulated arms.

Dave.

EEVblog · « **Reply #14 on:** November 25, 2012, 06:58:24 am »

Quote from: IanB on November 25, 2012, 02:07:22 am

I can't imagine why you would want an expensive optical microscope for inspection?

I find them better for real inspection work myself. I like the "analog" nature. Kinda like using an analog to a digital one for subtle details

Dave.

firewalker · « **Reply #15 on:** November 25, 2012, 07:00:09 am »

Can someone find cheaper "compatible" lenses?

Alexander.

EEVblog · « **Reply #16 on:** November 25, 2012, 07:33:54 am »

Quote from: firewalker on November 25, 2012, 07:00:09 am

Can someone find cheaper "compatible" lenses?

If you can afford $2600 for the head, why quibble over the lens?
Although if oyu got a cheap head on ebay or something, yeah, you'd be looking for cheaper lens maybe. None that I know of though.

Dave.

firewalker · « **Reply #17 on:** November 25, 2012, 07:39:16 am »

Quote from: EEVblog on November 25, 2012, 07:33:54 am

If you can afford $2600 for the head, why quibble over the lens?
Although if oyu got a cheap head on ebay or something, yeah, you'd be looking for cheaper lens maybe. None that I know of though.

Dave.

I had saw a couple of those sold without lenses (~1300 usd). An extra 1k for two lenses for example adds to the value.

Wartex · « **Reply #18 on:** November 25, 2012, 02:45:38 pm »

For anyone thinking about buying: I was on the fence for a long time, and for the money you can build a much better rig. I use Canon T2i with an HDMI cable and some lense rings to turn it into a microscope, I'm getting maybe 2-5 ms lag on the 1920x1080 screen. I can take video and pics at the same time too.

M. András · « **Reply #19 on:** November 25, 2012, 03:45:44 pm »

that almost unnoticable, and at what rate? 24 or 30fps?

mikeselectricstuff · « **Reply #20 on:** November 25, 2012, 04:28:59 pm »

I think my Mantis Compact with x4 lens was about £1K - the only difference is it doesn't have the lens turret - you can still swap lenses manually easily though. Can;t tell for certain but I think the x4 lens at least is a single element. Must have a play with all those lenses I got out of that big projector a while ago....

djsb · « **Reply #21 on:** November 25, 2012, 05:23:51 pm »

Am I correct in assuming the compact can only go upto a X6 lens? Does this limit it's usefulness for work with small SMT parts?
If the compact can do the job I will start saving for one.

David.

Wartex · « **Reply #22 on:** November 25, 2012, 05:28:56 pm »

Quote from: M. András on November 25, 2012, 03:45:44 pm

that almost unnoticable, and at what rate? 24 or 30fps?

It's 30 fps, I think the camera downscales it to 720p in HDMI to save CPU cycles, but it's realtime and very useable.

mikeselectricstuff · « **Reply #23 on:** November 25, 2012, 08:53:32 pm »

Quote from: djsb on November 25, 2012, 05:23:51 pm

Am I correct in assuming the compact can only go upto a X6 lens? Does this limit it's usefulness for work with small SMT parts?
If the compact can do the job I will start saving for one.

David.

There is a x8 but I've never felt the need to go above x4 for any SMD work & nowadays I NEED the mantis for anything smaller then 0805.
Price list : http://www.grovesales.co.uk/products.php?id=68

robrenz · « **Reply #24 on:** November 25, 2012, 09:37:45 pm »

Quote from: Wartex on November 25, 2012, 02:45:38 pm

For anyone thinking about buying: I was on the fence for a long time, and for the money you can build a much better rig. I use Canon T2i with an HDMI cable and some lense rings to turn it into a microscope, I'm getting maybe 2-5 ms lag on the 1920x1080 screen. I can take video and pics at the same time too.

Wartex, I am not dissing your setup! just making people aware of no depth perception with a screen setup.

I have a trinocular microscope with a 5Mpixel video/still camera and it can do 30fps at lower resolution. BUT any flat camera view is not stereo therfore no depth perception and it is much more difficult to work without depth perception.

More on my microscope camera setup and warnings/complaints here

free_electron · « **Reply #25 on:** November 25, 2012, 10:19:00 pm »

Not only Voyager had Mantis scopes. Dr Pulaski in TNg used one as well.
I have an original one . even on felabay those go for a truckload of money.
found it in the local junkshop. was in 2 pieces ( the arm and the head and the handle was missing + the lamps were gone.
i gave the guy 50 $ for it. He had no clue what it was. ordered about 150$ in spare parts from Vision and its as new.
This thing is the dream for anyoen soldering surface mounted stuff.

hans · « **Reply #26 on:** November 25, 2012, 11:06:44 pm »

I should be grateful then I can still solder (just barely) 0402's bare eye, only just. Not good for eye fatigue indeed.

For hobby I have a cheap 8x magnifying 'toy' from EuroCircuits which kinda works, but the viewing area is very small and only good for inspection afterwards. I am considering getting one of those bench lamps.. For a small hobbyist with limited lab space they seem the best deal.
These Mantis microscopes look wonderful, but then there is the price tag

But I guess when you treat it careful, it will never wear out.

As I also posted on youtube, in my experience standard microscopes suck for people with glasses. I do have glasses for nearsighted, so they don't help at all at short distance. In fact I often take them off I really want to examine things.

When aligning eyes for a microscope, they usually don't allow my eyes to move close enough so I have to take them off every time. And when I search for something on the bench, I have to put them on again. I think I 'only' have -4 to -4.5 on both eyes, which is bad enough to see things vaguely enough to be unable to read normal text (like Times New Roman 12pt) at ~25cm. It gets very annoying after a little while during inspection jobs or looking for stuff on the bench (component bags), but whatever.
At least I can sort-a see what I am doing when soldering

gregariz · « **Reply #27 on:** November 26, 2012, 12:41:36 am »

Quote from: hans on November 25, 2012, 11:06:44 pm

I am considering getting one of those bench lamps.. For a small hobbyist with limited lab space they seem the best deal.

Luxo and like bench magnifiers are great. I have a couple of them on my bench. Most seem to be in the 2x to 4x range, but if you can find them they used to make optional snap in lenses. (you insert them underneath to double up the existing lens). These will then get you something pretty similar to a Mantis.

Wartex · « **Reply #28 on:** November 26, 2012, 04:32:30 am »

Quote from: robrenz on November 25, 2012, 09:37:45 pm

Quote from: Wartex on November 25, 2012, 02:45:38 pm
For anyone thinking about buying: I was on the fence for a long time, and for the money you can build a much better rig. I use Canon T2i with an HDMI cable and some lense rings to turn it into a microscope, I'm getting maybe 2-5 ms lag on the 1920x1080 screen. I can take video and pics at the same time too.

Wartex, I am not dissing your setup! just making people aware of no depth perception with a screen setup.

I have a trinocular microscope with a 5Mpixel video/still camera and it can do 30fps at lower resolution. BUT any flat camera view is not stereo therfore no depth perception and it is much more difficult to work without depth perception.

More on my microscope camera setup and complaints here

depth perception is fixable with 2x USB cameras on a cheap amscope, a laptop and a small LG 3dtv with passive 3d glasses. It would still be much cheaper than mantis and have massive screen.

EEVblog · « **Reply #29 on:** November 26, 2012, 05:36:47 am »

Quote from: Wartex on November 26, 2012, 04:32:30 am

depth perception is fixable with 2x USB cameras on a cheap amscope, a laptop and a small LG 3dtv with passive 3d glasses. It would still be much cheaper than mantis and have massive screen.

"I'll just mod this little thing quick, hang on while I wait for the computer to boot... where the bloody hell are my 3D glasses?... now I can't see the scope for the 32" TV..."

Dave.

SteveyG · « **Reply #30 on:** November 26, 2012, 02:04:47 pm »

Am I the only one who can solder perfectly fine without any magnifiers? uMAX packages are fine

robrenz · « **Reply #31 on:** November 26, 2012, 02:25:59 pm »

mikeselectricstuff · « **Reply #32 on:** November 26, 2012, 03:38:19 pm »

Quote from: EEVblog on November 26, 2012, 05:36:47 am

Quote from: Wartex on November 26, 2012, 04:32:30 am
depth perception is fixable with 2x USB cameras on a cheap amscope, a laptop and a small LG 3dtv with passive 3d glasses. It would still be much cheaper than mantis and have massive screen.

"I'll just mod this little thing quick, hang on while I wait for the computer to boot... where the bloody hell are my 3D glasses?... now I can't see the scope for the 32" TV..."

Dave.

Once the Raspbery Pi camera is out, that could make the basis for an interesting setup.

mikeselectricstuff · « **Reply #33 on:** November 26, 2012, 03:39:59 pm »

Quote from: SteveyG on November 26, 2012, 02:04:47 pm

Am I the only one who can solder perfectly fine without any magnifiers? uMAX packages are fine

I used to be able to do TSOPs with nothing more than a bright light, then Old Age strikes....

robrenz · « **Reply #34 on:** November 26, 2012, 04:07:32 pm »

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 26, 2012, 03:38:19 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on November 26, 2012, 05:36:47 am
Quote from: Wartex on November 26, 2012, 04:32:30 am
depth perception is fixable with 2x USB cameras on a cheap amscope, a laptop and a small LG 3dtv with passive 3d glasses. It would still be much cheaper than mantis and have massive screen.

"I'll just mod this little thing quick, hang on while I wait for the computer to boot... where the bloody hell are my 3D glasses?... now I can't see the scope for the 32" TV..."

Dave.
Once the Raspbery Pi camera is out, that could make the basis for an interesting setup.

Processing power is definitely an issue. With the Amscope software my laptop could JUST do 30 fps at the lowest resolution of 640 x 480 and that looks a little grainy on a display. So doing 2 feeds simultaneously at a higher resolution is going to take way more power.

tom66 · « **Reply #35 on:** November 26, 2012, 04:35:07 pm »

My old laptop had a 3MP (2048x1536) webcam, no problem with doing that at 20fps over the internal USB bus. May just be crappy drivers...

nitro2k01 · « **Reply #36 on:** November 26, 2012, 09:27:33 pm »

Quote from: tom66 on November 26, 2012, 04:35:07 pm

My old laptop had a 3MP (2048x1536) webcam, no problem with doing that at 20fps over the internal USB bus. May just be crappy drivers...

20 fps means at the very least a latency of 50 ms (1/20 s) assuming the rest of the chain is zero latency. (In practice there's probably a minimum of another 33 ms lurking there, 2 frames at 60 Hz) So it probably wouldn't feel instantenous by any stretch of imagination.
(Point is, 20 FPS would be enough to create pretty fluid motion, but the latency in the whole chain would be annoying because feedback of hand movement is delayed.)

robrenz · « **Reply #37 on:** November 26, 2012, 09:51:31 pm »

From my experience anything less than 30fps is going to be very annoying to work under. In my microscopic videos I work looking thru the single right eyepiece while videoing. It is better than looking at the screen even at 30fps. The camera is in the trinocular position but when you switch the optics to have the camera engaged you loose the view thru the left eyepiece.

kyndal · « **Reply #38 on:** November 26, 2012, 09:54:53 pm »

was already mentioned.
but ya i think it should be a near no brainer to hack into or externally
a dimmer circuit..

/Kyndal

EEVblog · « **Reply #39 on:** November 26, 2012, 10:25:02 pm »

Quote from: SteveyG on November 26, 2012, 02:04:47 pm

Am I the only one who can solder perfectly fine without any magnifiers? uMAX packages are fine

No, I can do it too. uMax, 0402, whatever.
It's just MUCH nicer with a good magnifier.
And inspection is an entirely different ball game.

Dave.

albertdeen · « **Reply #40 on:** November 27, 2012, 01:36:13 am »

Hello and good day to all.

I need help. Does anyone know the usb pin out for this microscope on the board? Someone managed to yank out the usb cable and I have been tasked to find out the usb pin out on the microscope to solder back the cable.

Any help much appreciated. Thank you.

nitro2k01 · « **Reply #41 on:** November 27, 2012, 03:48:07 am »

Quote from: albertdeen on November 27, 2012, 01:36:13 am

Hello and good day to all.

I need help. Does anyone know the usb pin out for this microscope on the board? Someone managed to yank out the usb cable and I have been tasked to find out the usb pin out on the microscope to solder back the cable.

Any help much appreciated. Thank you.

Which microscope? The one in the video is not equipped with any kind of camera.

albertdeen · « **Reply #42 on:** November 27, 2012, 11:01:23 am »

Sorry. This model.

Mantis Elite-Cam

http://www.eis-inc.com/files/pdf/supplier_showcase_page_downloads/visioneng/Mantis_Elite_Cam_Datasheet.pdf

SteveyG · « **Reply #43 on:** November 27, 2012, 11:03:03 am »

Quote from: EEVblog on November 26, 2012, 10:25:02 pm

Quote from: SteveyG on November 26, 2012, 02:04:47 pm
Am I the only one who can solder perfectly fine without any magnifiers? uMAX packages are fine

No, I can do it too. uMax, 0402, whatever.
It's just MUCH nicer with a good magnifier.
And inspection is an entirely different ball game.

Dave.

Maybe for inspection, but I really dislike the 'feeling' of something between me and what I'm doing. We have these at work, along with various other inspection equipment but I can't say I've ever felt fatigued or felt eye strain by opting not to use them when soldering

NiHaoMike · « **Reply #44 on:** November 28, 2012, 04:11:15 am »

Quote from: robrenz on November 26, 2012, 04:07:32 pm

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 26, 2012, 03:38:19 pm
Quote from: EEVblog on November 26, 2012, 05:36:47 am
Quote from: Wartex on November 26, 2012, 04:32:30 am
depth perception is fixable with 2x USB cameras on a cheap amscope, a laptop and a small LG 3dtv with passive 3d glasses. It would still be much cheaper than mantis and have massive screen.

"I'll just mod this little thing quick, hang on while I wait for the computer to boot... where the bloody hell are my 3D glasses?... now I can't see the scope for the 32" TV..."

Dave.
Once the Raspbery Pi camera is out, that could make the basis for an interesting setup.

Processing power is definitely an issue. With the Amscope software my laptop could JUST do 30 fps at the lowest resolution of 640 x 480 and that looks a little grainy on a display. So doing 2 feeds simultaneously at a higher resolution is going to take way more power.

What about a pair of high framerate cameras connected to a FPGA, then send the result directly to a 3D LCD? The latency would be minimal and as long as you pick cameras with the same resolution as the LCD, the processing would also be minimal. As for startup time, a few seconds is more than good enough. There are even LCDs that can display 3D without glasses, but I have only seen cell phone sized panels so the technology must be quite expensive.

PChi · « **Reply #45 on:** November 28, 2012, 09:46:44 pm »

I am a fan of the Mantis when used for soldering but unfortunately haven't had access to one in the last few jobs.
I haven't seen a unit with the USB socket. Is it the USB connector pin out that is required which are listed at www.usb.org? But I guess that it is something more complicated that you want to know.

PeteInTexas · « **Reply #46 on:** November 30, 2012, 05:23:01 am »

What is that horse shoe shaped thing under the view port?

cgbrowne · « **Reply #47 on:** November 30, 2012, 02:39:13 pm »

Its an anti-glare shield

Lawsen · « **Reply #48 on:** December 04, 2012, 07:46:27 pm »

The Mantis seems a bit pricey, first the LED is not long lasting and the objectives are sold separately. The Compact Mantis costs $2574.98 at All Spec Company. This will not include the objectives. The price for a popular 4X is $121.88 and 6X is $210.94. The magnification is maximum at 10X and lower. The resolution is lower, but the depth of field and wide field of view, low N.A., numerical aperture, but the benefit is eyepieceless, ocularless, thus great for soldering and parts ID. This is basically the ultimate hand lens, which a hand lens on a good neck or articulated arm does the same function for less than $100.00 in the 2X, 4X, and 6X. The Mantis is special in the 10X. It is not for the hobbyist, more for an industrial factory. Your 1970s Olympus SZ greenough principle stereo microscope has more resolution and magnification, but less working distance and depth of field and need to look though an ocular. You can place a digital camera or video camera on the eyepiece and view through a larger panel LCD or LED screen. I am currently working on a Nikon Coolscope, but that is a compound for slides robot drone microscope with a broken power supply. Thanks for posting the video, totally fun to view you set one up and use one.

all_repair · « **Reply #49 on:** January 17, 2013, 10:23:45 am »

Any comments on old mantis M-001 head, stand M-003? I have quite a few head mount magnifiers already, and may have a chance to get a M-001 and M-003 here.

DigiGal · « **Reply #50 on:** June 02, 2013, 09:23:07 pm »

http://www.visioneng.us/mantis-3d-inspection-microscope-landing.php

Vision Engineering has a summer special in the US on the Matis Compact for $1380, linked above. I do quite a bit of SMD rework and my eyes are just not what they used to be. I know my employer wouldn't be keen on this expense so I'm considering springing for a Mantis Compact myself. Granted it has a smaller viewing window and only one lens at a time but would the Compact be a wise choice long term as a personal purchase? I would plan to pick up the available 8x lens down the road and don't think it would be a big deal to change the lens as needed. I do wear eyeglasses (progressive lenses) and was considering a stereo microscope but really don't think one would work well for me. I'm currently using a magnifier lamp and also use a Donegan OptiSIGHT VISOR pictured below but would like a better solution. The Mantis Elite looks ideal but as a personal purchase is really hard to justify. The Mantis Compact is easier for me to accept but it doesn't seem like as many people are using the Compact so I wonder if I'd regret the purchase wishing I'd stepped up to the Elite. The Mantis line certainly looks like an ideal solution for me but they sure are expensive.

Are there any Mantis Compact users on board? I'd really appreciate your feedback regarding the Mantis Compact for SMD work.

Donegan OptiSIGHT VISOR (3x, 4x, 5x power)

DigiGal · « **Reply #51 on:** June 20, 2013, 06:42:04 pm »

Followup; I took advantage of the summer promotion and added the Mantis Compact with 4x Objective to my bench last week. Wow, real nice piece of gear, don't know how I got along without after only a week of use. I built a work stage to raise the work up to the right height positioning the viewer in an optimal ergonomic position. Stage is made it out of an aluminum box with a formica top and added a ground snap to it so it can be tied to the multi-point ESD grounding block via an extra 1 Meg ohm coil cord.

Edit to add a quick photo of the work stage I put together from materials on hand; its dimensions are 35cm W x 35cm D x 10cm H which works well for my bench setup.

ben_r_ · « **Reply #52 on:** June 20, 2013, 06:43:44 pm »

Quote from: DigiGal on June 20, 2013, 06:42:04 pm

Followup; I took advantage of the summer promotion and added the Mantis Compact with 4x Objective to my bench last week. Wow, real nice piece of gear, don't know how I got along without after only a week of use. I built a work stage to raise the work up to the right height positioning the viewer in an optimal ergonomic position. Stage is made it out of an aluminum box with a formica top and added a ground snap to it so it can be tied to the multi-point ESD grounding block via an extra 1 Meg ? coil cord.

Nice. Yea I have been kicking around jumping on that summer promotion myself so what was your total cost for the setup? Also do you feel the 4X mag was enough? Not feeling like you should have gone with the 6X?

DigiGal · « **Reply #53 on:** June 20, 2013, 06:50:05 pm »

Got it direct from Vision Engineering in New Milford CT, no tax so it came to $1380 plus shipping. When you mail in the registration card they'll send you a set of free lens covers.

You won't be disappointed if you decide to pick one up. Yes 4x is plenty! It provides enough magnification and nice working distance. 6x or now 8x for compact is always an option down the line but I don't feel either is necessary at this point.

Noir_47 · « **Reply #54 on:** October 19, 2013, 05:23:25 pm »

Hello.
FY.

st · « **Reply #55 on:** November 09, 2013, 09:37:08 am »

If you are curious about the insides of a mantis, check ebay item 301005497455.
This is the only photo I know, since Dave was too chicken to open the thing up.
<http://i.ebayimg.com/t/VISION-ENGINEERING-MANTIS-MICROSCOPE-HEAD-/00/s/MTA2NlgxNjAw/$(KGrHqJ,!pwFCss9RTL9BQz7KT0cnw~~60_57.JPG>

You can see the diagonal beam splitting mirror, the rear mirror to the right, just a hint of the top mirror in the background.

US Patent Optical magnifying apparatus US 5477385 A seems to apply to the mantis units.
<https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pages/US5477385-1.png>

I fully expected it to be simple - despite the high price, but at the same time I am somewhat surprised.

Dave, maybe next time you can try not to be such a sissy if someone tells you "don't take it apart"?
Or perhaps Mike has to do a proper video teardown if you are not man enough?

ST

EEVblog · « **Reply #56 on:** November 09, 2013, 10:53:11 am »

Quote from: st on November 09, 2013, 09:37:08 am

Dave, maybe next time you can try not to be such a sissy if someone tells you "don't take it apart"?

They told me I could take it apart if I really wanted to, but that it would likely require realignment using their production jig or some such.

st · « **Reply #57 on:** November 09, 2013, 11:42:59 am »

I would guess that the grey cover on top gives access to alignment of the top mirror, so one eye output can be aligned relative to the other.
In the ebay photo it looks like the eye distance knob also tilts the top mirror via a linkage.
Taking off that grey top cover should not upset the alignment, that just wouldn't make any sense.

I'm still curious how the right-side-up optics work (block 20 in the patent), the thing is missing on the ebay auction and I haven't got my mantis yet.
Probably a prism or something like that?

It would be interesting to shoot a laser pointer through the objective and see how it comes out.

ST

P.S.: You need to get an AP130-A for your JBC.

SeanB · « **Reply #58 on:** November 09, 2013, 11:53:37 am »

Taking precision optics apart and putting them back together and having the same alignment is not easy. Even tightening order, torque and temperature of the assembly area will distort the casings enough to misalign them again. Let again now you have relaxed the tensions built up in the housing that was restrained by the other half that now is free to move parts around.

There is a reason precision optical alignment jigs include a half ton or so of granite beams as a part of the unit.

st · « **Reply #59 on:** November 09, 2013, 12:07:19 pm »

Quote from: SeanB on November 09, 2013, 11:53:37 am

Taking precision optics apart and putting them back together and having the same alignment is not easy. Even tightening order, torque and temperature of the assembly area will distort the casings enough to misalign them again. Let again now you have relaxed the tensions built up in the housing that was restrained by the other half that now is free to move parts around.

There is a reason precision optical alignment jigs include a half ton or so of granite beams as a part of the unit.

Did you look at the ebay photo? It looks far less precision than I expected (all plastic etc.). Obviously x20 doesn't require the same precision as a higher magnification microscope.

I understand your concerns, but the same applies to most of the electronics teardowns (cal potentially lost, risk of damage, etc.).
It's just not a good enough reason for me to not have at least a cautious look, especially given the fact that Dave would encounter substantially more goodwill and understanding than any of us if the worst should happen an the unit require realignment at the factory.

It's just so unlike Dave not to go there, who knows, perhaps we will still see more on this topic in the future.

ST

EEVblog · « **Reply #60 on:** November 09, 2013, 12:20:22 pm »

Quote from: st on November 09, 2013, 12:07:19 pm

I understand your concerns, but the same applies to most of the electronics teardowns (cal potentially lost, risk of damage, etc.).

Not even close.
Most cals are electronics of sort sort, and even the ones with pots, you have to deliberately poke at them and turn them with a screwdriver to screw them up.
It is very rare that a pure electronics product needs a re-cal after a teardown. The only example I can think of would be a really high end spectrum analyser that (in theory) might have it's noise floor changed if you don't seal the RF gaskets back up right. But even then, it's just "down in the noise", it's not going to put the thing out of whack.

Quote

It's just not a good enough reason for me to not have at least a cautious look, especially given the fact that Dave would encounter substantially more goodwill and understanding than any of us if the worst should happen an the unit require realignment at the factory.
It's just so unlike Dave not to go there, who knows, perhaps we will still see more on this topic in the future.

I asked them, they said it is unlikely I'd see the most interesting stuff without a reasonable possibility of stuffing up the alignment, which would require expensive shipping back to the UK from Australia and back again. It may or may not be true, but I believed them. After being specifically told that, I didn't want to be a dick and screw it up, I bet you would have done the same thing.
They said they would look into an old/broken unit I could have for a full teardown, but nothing became of that.
You can tear your one down for us all to enjoy, we are looking forward to it. Feel free to say "I told you so". But that also works both ways.

st · « **Reply #61 on:** November 09, 2013, 12:53:08 pm »

I have a feeling you are slightly out of your comfort zone with optics and that stopped you, which is a shame, since the things we _don't_ fully understand are the most interesting to investigate.

Let's face it, that resistance calibrator you did recently, we both knew exactly what to expect and why. Sure it was still very interesting, and sure I would have looked into it just the same, but it's still "as expected". (By the way I wondered if perhaps the wirewound low value resistors were on high quality mica rather than a plastic card).

I had no idea how the insides of the mantis would look before I found that ebay picture. I expected some kind of heavy prism optics with lots of parts like a regular stereo microscope.

While looking for information about the mantis I saw this thing by Vision Engineering:
<http://www.nature.com/nbt/journal/v19/n5/images/nbt0501_487_I4.jpg>
The ISIS eyepieces have rotating discs inside to distribute the image to a larger exit pupil, not in a million years would I have imagined that. Isn't that just fascinating? (You'll have to look up the exact workings I don't understand well enough to explain).

Anyway, I still hope you'll do perhaps just a little bit more on the mantis one day. When I get mine I will make pictures if I see something interesting.

ST

rolycat · « **Reply #62 on:** November 09, 2013, 01:56:46 pm »

Like Dave, I'm afraid I'm too chicken to take my (original) Mantis apart, but it's actually not that difficult to see a good deal of the internal construction if you shine a light through the viewer while it's switched off.

Taking pictures is tricky, though, since it's dark in there and you can't use a flash. I've had a go.

This is a picture taken looking upwards into the viewer. You can see a large concave mirror on the roof of the microscope, and the spring-loaded adjuster at the right hand side. There is a blurred view of the octagonal beam splitter at the bottom of the picture. This sits in the middle of the body of the microscope:

This is a picture looking towards the rear and slightly downwards through the beam splitter. You can see another large mirror at the rear of the unit and there are more mirrors below:

There is a small circuit board at the bottom left of the main housing, but I couldn't get a shot of it.

The optics have more elements and look considerably more sophisticated than those shown in the patent diagram.

st · « **Reply #63 on:** November 09, 2013, 02:59:33 pm »

Wow, thanks!
This considerably pads out what I could see on the ebay photo.

One can see the differences to the mantis compact, for example in the eye distance adjust mechanics.
There are no apparent adjustment elements on the top mirror as I expected, but then the original mantis does not have the top access hatch like the new models, right?

Can you tell at all if the mirrors are plain or curved? From the ebay photo it looked like they were curved, but from your photos it almost looks like a flat mirror. I understand this may be tricky to tell through the viewing lens.

I guess the only mystery left is whatever goes between the beam splitter and the objective lens.
Where the camera goes on the cam model would also be very interesting.

FWIW I concur that taking the two case halves apart would achieve nothing, the pieces would just fall out. But maybe there is an easy way to take the front lens off and get a clear view inside, or perhaps one can see some more stuff from below.

These photos leave me again stunned at how large and yet simple looking those optics are compared to my stereo microscope.

I'm sure they are more complex than the patent suggests, but they are still easy to understand if you compare them for example to the Dynascope/Lynx with the rotating disc (also from vision engineering).

ST

rolycat · « **Reply #64 on:** November 09, 2013, 03:51:02 pm »

Quote from: st on November 09, 2013, 02:59:33 pm

Wow, thanks!

My pleasure.

Quote

There are no apparent adjustment elements on the top mirror as I expected, but then the original mantis does not have the top access hatch like the new models, right?

Right, the original housing is split lengthways into left and right halves.

Quote

Can you tell at all if the mirrors are plain or curved? From the ebay photo it looked like they were curved, but from your photos it almost looks like a flat mirror. I understand this may be tricky to tell through the viewing lens.

Yes, the top mirror is significantly concave. The one at the rear is also concave as far as I can tell.

Quote

I guess the only mystery left is whatever goes between the beam splitter and the objective lens.

Mostly more mirrors, I think. There is another large mirror at a 45 degree angle pointing to the left beneath the beam splitter and a smaller one on the left wall of the housing. You can see bits of them in the second picture.

Quote

Where the camera goes on the cam model would also be very interesting.

FWIW I concur that taking the two case halves apart would achieve nothing, the pieces would just fall out. But maybe there is an easy way to take the front lens off and get a clear view inside, or perhaps one can see some more stuff from below.

I can't see an obvious way to remove the front lens. There is some fixed glass in the bottom just above the lens mount, but you can't see much looking up through it.

Quote

These photos leave me again stunned at how large and yet simple looking those optics are compared to my stereo microscope.

Using it is a real joy, the images are crystal clear and it is so comfortable to use.

I have 4x and 8x lenses on mine, and I don't need the 8x often - I was soldering a 0.65mm pitch MSOP IC yesterday and 4x was perfect.

It's also the only item in my lab which consistently interests non-techies - everyone who visits wants to play with it.

st · « **Reply #65 on:** November 09, 2013, 04:21:26 pm »

Thanks for the clarifications.

On second attempt I could make out the mirrors in the bottom according to your description and the D shaped hole where the optical path goes out of sight.

I have one with x4 and x8 lenses on next year's budget, already tried it and the picture is satisfactory to say the least. Too bad the higher magnifications are not really all that useful, at least on the universal stand.

ST

SeanB · « **Reply #66 on:** November 10, 2013, 09:59:24 am »

Mantis is precision optics, but not anything like high precision. That would be something like an airborne range finder, which will give a good return pulse at 10km with a spot less than 50m wide at that range. Those were always difficult to align after rebuilding, it took a week or more to get it to a good enough state after you replaced the blown ruby inside and cleaned off all the powder that was then spread throughout the optical cavity. Those little popsicle stick sized pieces of ruby were extremely expensive.

sdim · « **Reply #67 on:** December 21, 2013, 02:03:34 pm »

I have found a low priced head and lens package .

Does the mantis need power supply to work?

If yes, can I use a typical power supply or I have to buy a mantis on?

kayvee · « **Reply #68 on:** December 21, 2013, 02:10:43 pm »

Quote from: sdim on December 21, 2013, 02:03:34 pm

I have found a low priced head and lens package .

Does the mantis need power supply to work?

If yes, can I use a typical power supply or I have to buy a mantis on?

Power is only required for the illumination, and would differ if you have the original incandescent lamp version of the later LED type illumination, so best is to establish which type yours has.

SeanB · « **Reply #69 on:** December 21, 2013, 02:13:40 pm »

Power is only for illumination, you can use almost any 12V power supply to do that.

VK3DRB · « **Reply #70 on:** December 23, 2013, 10:24:20 am »

I saw a Mantis on an auction site a couple of years ago. Perfect condition with multiple magnifications. Sold for $280!!!! I missed it by a week. I WAS SPEWING! It was a bargain even at $1500.

I have used one before and believe me, there is no better.

Ingineer · « **Reply #71 on:** February 19, 2015, 06:57:19 am »

Quote from: SeanB on December 21, 2013, 02:13:40 pm

Power is only for illumination, you can use almost any 12V power supply to do that.

I know this is an old thread, but the Mantis Elite uses a 9V "wall wart" type supply, not 12V.

While I'm at it, I've been wondering how hard it would be to add a camera to my Mantis Elite. It's obviously not the version with the included cam. I did a partial teardown (mainly to clean my optics) and did not see an obvious location for the cam. Does anyone here have the cam option who wouldn't mind doing a partial teardown? It's pretty simple, and will not disturb any optical alignment. First remove the glare shield (if equipped) by unsnapping it. Then remove the 2 hex-head screws from the oval-ish top cover and lift it off. You will then see 2 hex head screws that screw forward into the viewing hood on the front. The best way to see these is to look at the head from behind. Note: Do not take any of the 4 top-facing screws out, as these hold the top mirror in place, and that could disturb alignment. Once the 2 screws are removed from the viewing hood, it will pivot forward and down away from the body. The big rectangular glass "screen" optic is now free and will simply pull out of the body. Be careful not to tilt the head forward or it could fall out, it's reasonably heavy! I recommend you carefully pull this out so you can go wash it with warm soapy water. The AR coating gets pretty dirty and is hard to clean while still normally installed, so this is a good thing anyway. Once this glass is removed, you will have a clear view of all the interior components. Some of mine were a little dusty, so I carefully cleaned them with a microfiber cloth.

I'll be happy to post pictures if anyone is interested.

-Phil

EEVblog · « **Reply #72 on:** February 19, 2015, 07:16:11 am »

Quote from: Ingineer on February 19, 2015, 06:57:19 am

While I'm at it, I've been wondering how hard it would be to add a camera to my Mantis Elite. It's obviously not the version with the included cam.

I was just wondering that myself today!

Ingineer · « **Reply #73 on:** February 19, 2015, 06:22:59 pm »

Yeah Dave, I was unimpressed with the apparently craptastic 1.3MP USB cam they put in there on their official (and pricey) model. Ideally a 1080P cam capable of 60HZ that can directly drive HDMI monitors would be stellar. Tiny board cams meeting these specs can be had for under $100 USD, so we just need to figure out the optical path and the mounting particulars.

-Phil

EEVblog · « **Reply #74 on:** February 19, 2015, 08:46:20 pm »

I'd be happy for some form of mount that clipped over the front window and got half usable results that way. After all, it works for the human eye.

nixxon · « **Reply #75 on:** March 31, 2015, 09:37:27 am »

I just received the first out of five Original Mantis magnifiers. I had to open it to fix several issues. I understand that pictures of Mantis guts are sparse, so here are some pictures taken while the unit was repaired and cleaned.

Issues:
1) Align optical path (left down) - not fixed - adjustment screw malfunction
2) Remove dust from lenses, mirrors and beam splitter - OK
3) Fix right lamp tilt mechanism - OK (pushrod had fallen off, secured with original 3mm set screw)
4) Fix intermittent fan - OK (Spade connector was too wide and made bad connection)
5) Insert 2 missing 3mm screws to "mirror assembly chassis" - OK

The viewing head splits in 2 halves after removing 4 screws (2 behind the viewing head and 1 in each lamp socket.)

The lower half of the viewing head (black) contains the objectives, 4 plane mirrors, all electric parts and lamp tilting lever and pushrods. All 4 mirrors in the lower half are fixed to a separate plastic framework/internal chassis by double sided tape. Very strong adhesion. The mirrors feel well secured in place and not delicate at all. It was no problem to genly wipe them clean with cotton cloths (pieces of old T-shirt) and bathroom glass cleaner.

The top half of the viewing head contains a beam splitter, 2 concave mirrors (one for each eye) and the viewing screen (lens). The mirror in the back of the viewing head (left image) is supposed to be slightly movable by turning the larger Philips screw behind the viewing head. The screw is malfunctioning in my unit, so I have not yet been able to perform a proper optical path adjustment. (The left image is a bit higher than the right image). Does anyone know how this adjustment screw is supposed to work? (is it a multi turn, threaded adjustment screw or a one-turn excentric screw where oposite sides represent the extreme adjustments in either direction?). The Operating instructions and Service Manual implies that the adjustment screw is used for horizontal alignment, but I suspect they meant vertical adjustment. As I hold a screw driver to the adjustment screw and apply pressure, the left image is temporarily lowered in the better direction.

nixxon · « **Reply #76 on:** March 31, 2015, 09:41:02 am »

more photos

H.O · « **Reply #77 on:** March 31, 2015, 09:57:28 am »

Thank you for posting that!
I have one in serious need of cleaning but have been "afraid" to take it apart risking misalignemt of the optics and no info on how to realign it. Now I know it's not really that complicated. Thanks!

Ingineer · « **Reply #78 on:** March 31, 2015, 06:24:14 pm »

That's the older model too. I can say that the newer models are a lot simpler inside. It's really easy to clean the optics, and splitting the case will not misalign anything. You can even get a good amount cleaned just by removing the glass screen from the viewport, that way you don't even have to split the case.

I still want to know how they integrate the camera though!

deanclaxton · « **Reply #79 on:** December 04, 2015, 06:49:14 am »

Thanks nixxon for those photos! You gave me the guts to open up my M001 today and give it a clean.

Here is a photo of the adjuster on the rear - the screw justs goes through a metal plate on the mirror and therefore adjusts the mirror in/out with the screw rotation.

Romain · « **Reply #80 on:** November 12, 2021, 09:08:09 am »

(old thread, but posting this for future reference)

On deanclaxton photo it looks like there is a small spiral spring behind the plate to push it forward when the screw is unscrewed.
Mine was off just like yours. Screwing it down raises the left eye, while unscrewing it lowers it.

toybuilder · « **Reply #81 on:** January 10, 2024, 09:30:57 pm »

Thanks to everyone that contributed to this thread. Based on the info here and having seen a Mantis a few times before, I gambled on eBay for an in-rough-shape Mantis. I figured it would at least be an interesting learning experience.

Whoever tried to fix it before didn't have enough information/knowledge to get it to work.

The main issue was having to fix the mounting of the lower concave mirror. One of the plastic tabs was broken off, and the previous repair attempt screwed the mirror down rigidly so that it couldn't move for adjustment. After patching the mounting point and mounting the mirror with a lit bit of play, I was able to adjust the vertical alignment. (There were a few other issues: https://twitter.com/toybuilder/status/1745185277981974770).

For anyone else looking to fixing one up, I would say that if you have basic optics knowledge and can work methodically, the Mantis is actually pretty simple and straightforward. Yes, you need to have the optics aligned, but the lower mirror assembly is pretty much solid and don't need adjusting. It's mostly making the small adjustments to get the beam splitter and the concave mirrors positioned where they need to be. If the housing is intact, it should just be a matter of adjusting a few screws and turning a knob.

thm_w · « **Reply #82 on:** January 12, 2024, 12:21:13 am »

Looks similar to the unit I have, JBWeld PlasticWeld or equivalent is your friend when bonding to and building up this cheap plastic.

As for your camera, you can get a microscope camera from aliexpress for <$150 that will be more than good enough if you need to document extensively.

toybuilder · « **Reply #83 on:** January 12, 2024, 07:52:31 am »

So my unit was "cross-eyed" at the optimal viewing distance because I had the bottom (back) mirror mounted too far down on the right hand side. I added a plastic washer behind the mounting plate on the right side to shim it and turn the mirror angle slightly more to the left. That fixed the offset (and also improved the vertical alignment range). Now, I get eyes-correct image at the optimal viewing distance and an excellent FOV.

Aligning this without factory fixtures means having to open, adjust, and close the unit a bunch of times to get it right. But now that I've got it working right and mounted on an inexpensive monitor arm, I've got a frankenMantis that should make it much easier to do SMD rework.

BTW, my Mantis is missing the lens turret -- so I've just (for now) taped a simple double-convex 200mm FL lens at the entry aperture. That seems to give an approximate 2X magnification. Basic double-convex lenses are inexpensive and easy to get, so a lack of the official objective lens isn't a showstopper.

GterBeke · « **Reply #84 on:** January 26, 2024, 03:55:55 pm »

For the Mantis Elite the turret is separately available. Partnumber is 202B0445.


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