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Author Topic: EEVblog #411 - MiniPro TL866 Universal Programmer Review  (Read 545052 times)

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Offline radioman

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Re: EEVblog #411 - MiniPro TL866 Universal Programmer Review
« Reply #125 on: May 20, 2013, 02:15:09 AM »
Oh... well, data coming out of the PIC not programmer, i was thinking that data was out from programmer. This is very strange indeed. 15pF cap on the line makes me think about the line impedance too high and a small cap value matter. How the supply voltage is applied to the PIC? maybe a decoupling cap on the PIC voltage rail is needed?
Strange, very strange to tell.
 

Offline PA0PBZ

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Re: EEVblog #411 - MiniPro TL866 Universal Programmer Review
« Reply #126 on: May 20, 2013, 02:27:09 AM »
The PIC ID is coming from the PIC of course  :)
I tried all kinds of decoupling and pull up and down stuff, but that did not make any difference. However, I think I captured the problem part, it looks like a bad clock that appears just before the PIC spits out the ID, see attachment. A bit weird, because all the other clock edges look much better.
Keyboard error: Press F1 to continue.
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #411 - MiniPro TL866 Universal Programmer Review
« Reply #127 on: May 20, 2013, 02:33:23 AM »
Probably the extra capacitance delays the signal so the latch internal to the programmer gets a valid data level, most likely it is being latched just as the signal is being changed, and depending on the device, temperature and supply voltage it will read one or the other. The delay slows it down to a time afterwards when it is stable,

Had plenty of fun with this on cards that would nominally be perfectly functional, but just would not work with each other. Change one or the other and it works. Then take to operating temp of 120C and see if it still works, if not try another card. then take to the ATE and let it run through diagnostics for 5 hours and see if it fails, generally not, but it might do so again in a year.
 

Offline radioman

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Re: EEVblog #411 - MiniPro TL866 Universal Programmer Review
« Reply #128 on: May 20, 2013, 02:36:44 AM »
Looks like a clock edge jitter for me, but what could cause it?
 

Offline radioman

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Re: EEVblog #411 - MiniPro TL866 Universal Programmer Review
« Reply #129 on: May 20, 2013, 03:03:26 AM »
The clock line is ringing at the rising edge and after a while it stabilizes, but hmm... clock line is driven by the programmer, maybe a series resistor with clock line help?
 

Offline PA0PBZ

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Re: EEVblog #411 - MiniPro TL866 Universal Programmer Review
« Reply #130 on: May 20, 2013, 03:05:15 AM »
Probably the extra capacitance delays the signal so the latch internal to the programmer gets a valid data level, most likely it is being latched just as the signal is being changed, and depending on the device, temperature and supply voltage it will read one or the other.

The clock goes to the PIC, it looks like the PIC sees an extra clock cycle and starts to spit out the data bits one clock early (01111100 -> 00111110)
I also don't see why the clock is only 4 Volt, this pic is a 5 Volt device so that makes it only worse.
Keyboard error: Press F1 to continue.
 

Offline PA0PBZ

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Re: EEVblog #411 - MiniPro TL866 Universal Programmer Review
« Reply #131 on: May 20, 2013, 03:11:48 AM »
The clock line is ringing at the rising edge and after a while it stabilizes, but hmm... clock line is driven by the programmer, maybe a series resistor with clock line help?

This is the clock as it is on the ZIF socket, I can't measure on the PIC because that makes the problem go away. What worries me is that this programmer should do its work without the extra stuff, if I can't trust it I don't want to use it. I'm using the cable that I got with my (chinese clone) PICkit 3, it is not exeptionally long. Compared do what I see in the pictures of the TL866A it is even shorter, although it looks like the wires are thicker in the original.
Keyboard error: Press F1 to continue.
 

Offline radioman

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Re: EEVblog #411 - MiniPro TL866 Universal Programmer Review
« Reply #132 on: May 20, 2013, 03:20:10 AM »
Quote
The clock goes to the PIC, it looks like the PIC sees an extra clock cycle and starts to spit out the data bits one clock early (01111100 -> 00111110)
I also don't see why the clock is only 4 Volt, this pic is a 5 Volt device so that makes it only worse.

Oh! that make sense, i think that programmer icsp voltage is only 3.3v an this could cause this issue.

Quote
This is the clock as it is on the ZIF socket, I can't measure on the PIC because that makes the problem go away. What worries me is that this programmer should do its work without the extra stuff, if I can't trust it I don't want to use it. I'm using the cable that I got with my (chinese clone) PICkit 3, it is not exeptionally long. Compared do what I see in the pictures of the TL866A it is even shorter, although it looks like the wires are thicker in the original.
Well, cheap and bad design, i'm sure they not tested it well for every case...
 

Offline ju1ce

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Re: EEVblog #411 - MiniPro TL866 Universal Programmer Review
« Reply #133 on: May 28, 2013, 02:06:20 PM »
Is this device able to reset AVR fuses using high voltage programming?
 

Offline c4757p

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Re: EEVblog #411 - MiniPro TL866 Universal Programmer Review
« Reply #134 on: May 28, 2013, 02:10:13 PM »
Yes.
No longer active here - try the IRC channel if you just can't be without me :)
 

Offline ju1ce

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Re: EEVblog #411 - MiniPro TL866 Universal Programmer Review
« Reply #135 on: May 29, 2013, 01:07:20 AM »
 

Offline Eight8

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Re: EEVblog #411 - MiniPro TL866 Universal Programmer Review
« Reply #136 on: June 01, 2013, 09:43:19 AM »
Awesome work Radioman and all the worked on decrypting the firmware.  :)

I shall have to do some reading.
 

Offline abzman

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Re: EEVblog #411 - MiniPro TL866 Universal Programmer Review
« Reply #137 on: June 12, 2013, 08:56:58 PM »
yup, I tested a few AVRs the moment it showed up as an 'a' model, took more work than I thought, chicken and egg problem.  for those without a pickit2 or 3 or any pic programmer because you bought THIS to be a pic programmer see:

http://www.members.aon.at/electronics/pic/picpgm/
http://picpgm.picprojects.net/hardware.html#LVP_PROGRAMMER

or if you want to read about someone going slightly mad, read my experiences here:
http://abzman2k.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/upgrading-the-tl866cs-or-misadventures-with-pics/
 

Offline radioman

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Re: EEVblog #411 - MiniPro TL866 Universal Programmer Review
« Reply #138 on: June 14, 2013, 07:36:26 AM »
abzman, i read the whole article and i like it, a true hacker! glad to see you happy at the end.
 

Offline digsys

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Re: EEVblog #411 - MiniPro TL866 Universal Programmer Review
« Reply #139 on: June 14, 2013, 08:58:49 AM »
My A version arrived yesterday. If there's anything you want checked, let me know.
I only bought it as a backup of my Galep IV, who take forever to fix bugs and reneged on making driver software available. bastids
Hello <tap> <tap> .. is this thing on?
 

Offline abzman

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Re: EEVblog #411 - MiniPro TL866 Universal Programmer Review
« Reply #140 on: June 14, 2013, 11:48:27 AM »
So, here's a thought if this project becomes more community oriented.  The MC3406 needs a resistor divider set on the comparator inverting input, originally I thought to use an i2c controlled pot, but the i2c lines are taken up, maybe bit banging a spi digital pot like the ad8402 to control the voltages in a much finer way than the 3bit control we have now.  This may require other changes than just stripping off the resistors and transistors that are currently on the inputs and replacing them with this digital pot, but I don't know exactly what.  This would of course require the designing of a custom firmware and probably a new GUI, but if we eventually get our own chip database going then we might want a wider range of voltages available and this seemed like a simple (hardware) mod that would allow that. 
Just a thought, I'm not sure I'm up to anything as radical as re-writing the PIC's firmware, but I wanted to put it out there. 
 

Offline mladen82

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Re: EEVblog #411 - MiniPro TL866 Universal Programmer Review
« Reply #141 on: June 18, 2013, 09:45:33 PM »
Did anyone notice that even no memory chip at programmer, software reading is ''succesfuly''  :-DD
anyway works good for now  :-+
 

Offline sparkyuiop

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Re: EEVblog #411 - MiniPro TL866 Universal Programmer Review
« Reply #142 on: June 20, 2013, 08:07:55 PM »
For all experiencing GUI issues try this:

1. Insert your Windows Xp installation CD.
2. Go to Control Panel->Regional...

Thanks allot Radioman, you are a superstar! Minipro software now displays correctly without resizing the window and that only improved it, not cure it.
 

Offline Prema

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Re: EEVblog #411 - MiniPro TL866 Universal Programmer Review
« Reply #143 on: June 24, 2013, 06:41:43 AM »
I have a few SOIC8 which I am trying to re-program. Since this is an ongoing project and I'll have to re-flash the chips a lot of times, I would like to re-flash in-curcuit.
While a college had no trouble with another programmer the TL866 voltage-protection seams to prevent it on any of the chips:



Any ideas how to disable or work around that protection, or getting it done any other way with the TL866 are more than welcome!

THX in advance.    :-+
« Last Edit: June 24, 2013, 06:44:44 AM by Prema »
 

Offline radioman

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Re: EEVblog #411 - MiniPro TL866 Universal Programmer Review
« Reply #144 on: June 26, 2013, 05:49:24 AM »
This is overcurrent  protection not voltage-protection. How do you connect the chip to the programmer? The overcurrent protection cannot be disabled because is working at the firmware level.
 

Offline c4757p

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Re: EEVblog #411 - MiniPro TL866 Universal Programmer Review
« Reply #145 on: June 26, 2013, 05:55:13 AM »
Pop it open and check for shorts.
No longer active here - try the IRC channel if you just can't be without me :)
 

Offline Prema

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Re: EEVblog #411 - MiniPro TL866 Universal Programmer Review
« Reply #146 on: June 26, 2013, 04:33:23 PM »
It's connected via a testing clip. The clip works perfect with the TL866 for all chips except in-circuit. I have tried 4 different boards and I get that message with all of them. Even shortened the cable to like 10cm...may have to build an external socket for the project as there are no 150mil sockets except the giant ones that we use in programmers. It's just annoying that I need to do all that work while another programmer just works on the same boards in-circuit, maybe that current protection is just too sensitive...just wish we could manually disable it.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 04:41:48 PM by Prema »
 

Offline digsys

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Re: EEVblog #411 - MiniPro TL866 Universal Programmer Review
« Reply #147 on: June 26, 2013, 04:49:45 PM »
Is the board to program powered up? or are you supplying Vcc? If you're supplying Vcc, then maybe it's reading current draw of the board?
Hello <tap> <tap> .. is this thing on?
 

Offline radioman

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Re: EEVblog #411 - MiniPro TL866 Universal Programmer Review
« Reply #148 on: June 26, 2013, 04:57:26 PM »
I think that board is drawing too much, if is exceeding 100mA then the overcurrent protection will be triggered in about 100uS.
 

Offline Prema

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Re: EEVblog #411 - MiniPro TL866 Universal Programmer Review
« Reply #149 on: June 26, 2013, 04:59:30 PM »
Boards are not powered. Only source is the TL866. Yeah maybe the boards draw too much and I should use another power source?!?
 


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