Author Topic: EEVblog #625 - Retro Teardown: Sony's First Digital Camera  (Read 13163 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #625 - Retro Teardown: Sony's First Digital Camera
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2014, 05:54:36 pm »
Is it just me or the sound quality dropped a lot when Dave switched to the Tagarno for viewing the sensor?  :-//

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Offline JoeMuc2013

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Re: EEVblog #625 - Retro Teardown: Sony's First Digital Camera
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2014, 06:28:52 pm »
Hi Dave,

great piece of retro :) thank you!
Now that you mentioned that rumour about the actual resolution being only 640x240, I watched some old images from a trip to Vienna (back in 1998) and I think I agree that pixels are probably double height. Which makes that phenomenal piece of work only a 0,15 MPixel camera, duh.

In my opinion, commercials stated this to be a VGA camera anyway. A bit of a lie as some web sites suggest the sensor is actually 640x240 but images were resampled to have VGA dimensions.
The shot attached was taken in the Vienna National Museum. The really bad aliasing kind of proves that the resolution is only half in the Y dimension and the interpolation failed miserably to hide that.

Greets
Joe
 

Online Rasz

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Re: EEVblog #625 - Retro Teardown: Sony's First Digital Camera
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2014, 07:24:32 pm »
Dave are you Binarysequence?

Yes I am. Wikipedia will not let you use your real name, or that of website or brand etc.

oh, sorry

looks like some asshole just appropriated them as his own, didnt even use same License Dave used (CC 2.0).

That's Flickrs fault. I want to make all my images public domain, but it doesn't have that option. The next best choice is CC attribution.

You can, and should use your real name in the Author field when uploading media. Source field is also useful, link will be nofollow, nonetheless it will steer people towards you/eevblog. Wikipedia doesnt like you writing about yourself or linking to yourself. But image attribution is another matter.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #625 - Retro Teardown: Sony's First Digital Camera
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2014, 07:28:24 pm »
You can, and should use your real name in the Author field when uploading media.

It's an extra step, couldn't be bothered really.
 

Offline Hypernova

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Re: EEVblog #625 - Retro Teardown: Sony's First Digital Camera
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2014, 10:03:59 pm »
This thread has gotten this long without this ad being linked?
  :-DD:


I remember seeing it on TV as a kid, personally I thought it was a bit kludgy even back then.
 

Offline Clear as mud

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Re: EEVblog #625 - Retro Teardown: Sony's First Digital Camera
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2014, 11:49:00 pm »
A tip for all you young players, and also for Dave, apparently:
If a piece of Japanese electronics gear has split arrows pointing to some of the screws, only those screws that the arrows point to need to be removed to open the case, as a first step to servicing.

I know, I was watching Dave take out all the screws on the underside, and when he removed three without arrows, I was yelling, "No, don't take out those screws yet!"
 ^-^
 

Offline Clear as mud

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Re: EEVblog #625 - Retro Teardown: Sony's First Digital Camera
« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2014, 12:09:17 am »
Where I used to work, we were using one of these Sony floppy disk cameras as late as 2005.  When I later worked as gate security for college basketball games, I had to enforce a rule about nobody bringing in cameras with more than 3x optical zoom, and I was telling one of the other gate keepers about this Sony camera that had 10x zoom.  Someone probably could have snuck one in (probably still could) because they're so old and clunky looking, who would guess they have such a good zoom lens?  Of course, the sheer size of it compared to newer cameras would now probably draw attention to it and warrant a closer inspection.
 

Offline tchicago

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Re: EEVblog #625 - Retro Teardown: Sony's First Digital Camera
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2014, 12:14:10 am »
This thread has gotten this long without this ad being linked?
  :-DD:


I remember seeing it on TV as a kid, personally I thought it was a bit kludgy even back then.

Then there were CD-recording cameras, under same Sony Mavica brand. Clunky as well :)
 

Offline Hypernova

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Re: EEVblog #625 - Retro Teardown: Sony's First Digital Camera
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2014, 12:57:37 am »
I had to enforce a rule about nobody bringing in cameras with more than 3x optical zoom

Off topic but why?

the 10x optical is actually pretty impressive, consumer grade stuff usually stop at 3x. The sensor may be dated but the optic is still good by modern standards.
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #625 - Retro Teardown: Sony's First Digital Camera
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2014, 02:16:50 am »
The optics probably would be good with a more modern 10Mp sensor, and at least there are none of those horrid 4v electrolytics that gave other Sony consumer stuff a built in lifetime of around 2-3 years before failing. A lot of attention to detail there, and actually designed for servicing, as Sony obviously thought the drive would fail in the product lifetime and designed it to be somewhat easy to replace.
 

Offline olafnew

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Re: EEVblog #625 - Retro Teardown: Sony's First Digital Camera
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2014, 05:16:18 am »
Dave - the audio quality of the Samson Go Mic is horrible. Get rid of it. Your videos are always so superb on the audio quality, that listening them is a treat, but this new microphone - is rubbish, and the audio is horrible, starting from the dynamic range, and finishing with "buzzing" of the voice.
 

Offline Neoistheone2000

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Re: EEVblog #625 - Retro Teardown: Sony's First Digital Camera
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2014, 02:19:12 pm »
Dave, I can't lie, I love anything that uses a floppy drive, I must find one of these cameras now lol.

I must have it.

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Offline Don Hills

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Re: EEVblog #625 - Retro Teardown: Sony's First Digital Camera
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2014, 08:01:39 pm »
I've owned both the FD7 and the FD71.
The sensor appears to be a video camera sensor - in the settings, you get the option of Field or Frame mode. The flash was pretty useless - it appeared to have an auto sensor, but it always appeared to flash at the same brightness regardless. The FD71 did have a double speed floppy drive, and it had a "raw" option that recorded one uncompressed image taking most of a floppy. The raw image quality wasn't greatly improved over the compressed quality. The FD71 had a clever backlight modification: the top edge of the diffuser for the LCD backlight was brought through the top of the camera case. Bright sunlight shining on this augmented the cold cathode tube backlight, making it easier to use in daylight.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 08:09:37 pm by Don Hills »
 

Offline AmmoJammo

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Re: EEVblog #625 - Retro Teardown: Sony's First Digital Camera
« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2014, 08:33:00 pm »
I had a Kodak DC120, apparently released in 1997, but I didn't get it till 2003 maybe?

Anyway, 1 megapixel... which makes me wonder why the Sony was 0.3mp from the same era?

The Kodak also recorded to memory of some sort, and you could copy the photos from the device via serial ;)

Perhaps because the 1mp photos are up to nearly 500kb.. you wouldn't fit many on a floppy disc, so why make a 1mp camera....  :-+
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #625 - Retro Teardown: Sony's First Digital Camera
« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2014, 08:44:50 pm »
Dave - the audio quality of the Samson Go Mic is horrible. Get rid of it. Your videos are always so superb on the audio quality, that listening them is a treat, but this new microphone - is rubbish, and the audio is horrible, starting from the dynamic range, and finishing with "buzzing" of the voice.

It's not the microphone, it was the level settings and possibly a fault with USB encoding in the Avermedia software.
 

Offline silent

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Re: EEVblog #625 - Retro Teardown: Sony's First Digital Camera
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2014, 09:44:20 pm »
A 32-bit microcontroller and a hardware character generator.

Looks like the whole display support was done by ASIC CCD serial data to composite video converter plus analog in/out OSD chip and the microcontroller was nothing to do with the image generation. It looks a little funny in 2014  :).


Btw. do you remember these?
http://touque.ca/EC/students/MouzannarF/PolaroidCamera.jpg
That would look nice with a 5,25' floppy drive instead of instant-film slot :).
 

Offline marshallh

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Re: EEVblog #625 - Retro Teardown: Sony's First Digital Camera
« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2014, 01:48:48 am »
Here's another intersting relic from 1995 I inherited:




Dycam, has an internal SH2 processor that performs very rudimentary JPEG-like compression. (Mostly the discrete cosine transofrm and quantization). The files are stored on  a 2 megabyte PCMCIA flash card. You can load the files onto your computer with a RS232 cable, and some postprocessing by the software to convert to a BMP.

It was purchased for several thousand dollars for architectural documentation and design inspection.

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Offline skinnymalink

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Re: EEVblog #625 - Retro Teardown: Sony's First Digital Camera
« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2014, 01:58:08 am »
I recently got hold of a 2001 Nikon Coolpix 900. I swapped out the hot filter for a piece of floppy disc cut to the same size. It is now sensitive to IR light and less sensitive to visible light. Unfortunately the focus is quite right because the sensor is now closer to lens (can fix that) but at close range it take very interesting photos like this selfie. The swivel arrangement of the camera which seems so whacky now is actually very handy for selfies.  8)
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Offline theatrus

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Re: EEVblog #625 - Retro Teardown: Sony's First Digital Camera
« Reply #43 on: June 08, 2014, 04:43:12 am »

Here's another intersting relic from 1995 I inherited:




Dycam, has an internal SH2 processor that performs very rudimentary JPEG-like compression. (Mostly the discrete cosine transofrm and quantization). The files are stored on  a 2 megabyte PCMCIA flash card. You can load the files onto your computer with a RS232 cable, and some postprocessing by the software to convert to a BMP.

It was purchased for several thousand dollars for architectural documentation and design inspection.



That looks a lot like an Apple QuickTake 100.
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Offline baljemmett

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Re: EEVblog #625 - Retro Teardown: Sony's First Digital Camera
« Reply #44 on: June 08, 2014, 11:34:56 am »
The sensor appears to be a video camera sensor - in the settings, you get the option of Field or Frame mode.

Makes sense - before digital cameras hit the consumer market, there were 'still video cameras' such as the Canon ion series.  They recorded a single field or frame in analogue format on a miniature disc (one per track), and could play it back as a video signal for display or digitisation with a video capture card.

I think I have a duplicate of one of the Canon models in my collection somewhere, if Dave had any interest in looking at oneā€¦  Will have to check, though!
 

Offline Clear as mud

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Re: EEVblog #625 - Retro Teardown: Sony's First Digital Camera
« Reply #45 on: June 10, 2014, 05:01:17 am »
I had to enforce a rule about nobody bringing in cameras with more than 3x optical zoom

Off topic but why?

They never told us the reason for the rule against bringing high-zoom cameras to the basketball games, but I always assumed it had something to do with the TV and other media wanting to be the only ones with the capability to get good pictures.  It's possible that the university athletics department had charged them a fee to bring their cameras in, and guaranteed that nobody could bring in a good camera without paying the fee.  Another possibility is that nobody was allowed to bring in good cameras at all, and the athletic department themselves maintained control over all the professional-grade cameras and charged everybody for the pictures.
 

Offline marshallh

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Re: EEVblog #625 - Retro Teardown: Sony's First Digital Camera
« Reply #46 on: June 10, 2014, 01:00:35 pm »
I believe that Apple and Kodak both license the Dycam design in the mid-90s.
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Offline Agent24

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Re: EEVblog #625 - Retro Teardown: Sony's First Digital Camera
« Reply #47 on: June 13, 2014, 12:34:04 pm »
Original photos:
http://www.eevblog.com/files/Mavica
The PC floppy is playing up, couldn't get them  all.

Those look really good for something that old - much better quality than my webcam which is also supposed to be 640x480!
 

Offline ppaing126

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Re: EEVblog #625 - Retro Teardown: Sony's First Digital Camera
« Reply #48 on: Yesterday at 10:30:38 am »
Hello, thanks for this great forum!

I come here with a question still can't answer: Some days ago I was checking a pcb that uses the uPD72069 floppy drive controller. I searched thru the web and all datasheets for that floppy controller is the same pdf version, the one that identifies as "T-52-33-51".

It happen that the pin-out version for the 100 pin version does not correspond with the chip I have in my pcb. The 2 Xtall resonators, the Gnd's, the Vcc are on different pins. Why I'm posting this here? Because looking at the video of the Mavica I see it also has the IC pinout same as my pcb. But this does not match what the datasheet shows. Please look at the video, still on the section where the uPD72069 shows, and you will see the 16 Mhz resonator is connected to the pins #82 and #83 (like in my pcb). But the pdf says the resonator should go to #56 and #57. It is place for the second resonator but that also do not match the pin-out either.

So I'm trying to find and download this camera schematic to see if there is a identification for the uPD usage pins. But the schematics I found have little to say about the uPD, even it does not appears.

Is just me, or the uPD70069 pdf is totally wrong in all copies I have found so far? 
Does someone has a schematic of other equipment where this floppy controller have been used...?

I need the correct pin-out for scope signals analysis as my pcb refuses to load the diskettes.


btw, I borrow a camera like this long long  time ago, to take pictures of my sister weeding  :D
 


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