EEVblog #451 - Rigol DS1052E vs DS2072 Oscilloscope

[casper.bang]

Interesting comparison.  I would totally get the 2072 if it were only x2 the price of the 1052... unfortunately for me, it's not. So pardon me, I'll still have to consider this an illustration of technolical progress in 4-5 years rather than a "first scope" shootout.

[marmad]

How much has oscilloscope technology developed in the last 5 years?
Dave compares the baseline $800 entry level scope from 5 years ago, the Rigol DS1052E, to the current $800 benchmark, the DS2072.

Nice video, Dave - thanks for the kind words about the software 

One minor mistake while you showed the DS2000's features - in frame (segment) analysis mode, you can work with masks (Pass/Fail) or templates (Trace). You can't chose a frame to use as the mask, as you tried to do in the video (you just create the mask in the traditional way of X/Y div/distance) - but you can do it if you use templates. Working in Trace mode is more powerful than Pass/Fail since it analyzes and displays both error frames and the percentage of difference (deviation) from the template - whereas with masks the difference is always just 0% (pass) or 100% (fail). This makes the Trace mode a nice tool for analyzing things like jitter.

In any case, great job 

[marmad]

But what about the fan noise?

The DS1052 got noted for having a distinctly audible fan. Is the DS2072 louder, quieter, or about the same?

I have/had both scopes - the DS2072 is much less audible. It's not completely silent, but it's a rather low, smooth rumbling -  and it's not disturbing to me in the way that the DS1052's was. A definite improvement.

[marmad]

Interesting comparison.  I would totally get the 2072 if it were only x2 the price of the 1052... unfortunately for me, it's not. So pardon me, I'll still have to consider this an illustration of technolical progress in 4-5 years rather than a "first scope" shootout.

But the quality/features of the DS2072 are, as Dave put it, an order of magnitude higher - more like x10 as opposed to x2. But of course, many other factors have to be considered: How quickly do you need a scope? How often will you use it? What are your long term plans? Etc.

Need the cheapest scope as quickly as possible?
A used analog scope or one of the low cost DSOs is probably the answer.
Saving money for a scope that you don't need immediately but want to use for years?
Don't bother with one of the < $400 DSOs anymore - they're outdated. Save your money a bit longer and get something vastly better.

One other point that I don't think Dave mentioned in this video: the quality of the build (inside and out). Much much better on the new Rigols - it feels much closer to professional measurement equipment.

[ivan747]

Something very important for me is the screen brightness. The room where my lab is has a huge 3mx1.2m window pointing to the west. From 4 to 6 I think you could sunbathe if you leave the windows open. Screens look all dim except for LCDs.

When recently faced with a similar problem I found a very effective solution in window blinds. They can block as much light as you need.

She who must be obeyed has been delaying the installation of blinds for months now 

[marmad]

Something very important for me is the screen brightness. The room where my lab is has a huge 3mx1.2m window pointing to the west. From 4 to 6 I think you could sunbathe if you leave the windows open. Screens look all dim except for LCDs.

My lab is in a room with five 2.25m x 1.2m windows and the screen brightness, although on the dim side, is enough during the day.

[casper.bang]

But the quality/features of the DS2072 are, as Dave put it, an order of magnitude higher - more like x10 as opposed to x2. But of course, many other factors have to be considered: How quickly do you need a scope? How often will you use it? What are your long term plans? Etc.

Absolutely. If you're passionate about this hobby, know that you are in it for the long run and have the cash, I can totally see the benefits!

However, if you're like me; primarily a software engineer with a neglected but curious electronics past, occasionally tinkering with breadboards and can see the advantage of a basic scope over an advanced multimeter, there is a mighty big step from a 1052 to a 2072. I am in the marked for an beginner/hobby scope that improves on the 1052 for around $US500/€400. By several definitions, the 2000 series is not that.

[Hydrawerk]

I find the DS2000 screen a little annoyingly dim.

Does the Agilent DSOX2000 have a better screen? It is CCFL on the Agilent, but it might be OK.

[Hydrawerk]

When you compare the Rigol ones to the Tektronix ones, then i wonder how Tektronix can survive like this.
Compare the Rigol DS2072 with the Tek TDS2002C, the Tek is $1080 while the Rigol is $839.
The Tek only has a little display and 2.5K memory while the 14M of the Rigol sound much more serious.

Comparing  the 4000 series Rigol scopes with the Tek ones gets even worse. There you have a difference from $3800 for the Rigol and about $7000 for the Tek ones.

Its pretty scary how this development is going....

Tek is IMHO better for schools or some companies, where they don't want any advanced features but the scope is turned on 12 hours a day. Tek is not suitable for hobby use, it is not a good bang per buck.

[marmad]

However, if you're like me; primarily a software engineer with a neglected but curious electronics past, occasionally tinkering with breadboards and can see the advantage of a basic scope over an advanced multimeter, there is a mighty big step from a 1052 to a 2072. I am in the marked for an beginner/hobby scope that improves on the 1052 for around $US500/€400.

Understood. Well, if you don't need to do much/any digital circuit debugging - and the current noise issues have been resolved - the Owon SDS7102V is a good deal (large screen, 10M per channel, battery-operated, VGA out, etc.) in that price range.

[marmad]

Tek is IMHO better for schools or some companies, where they don't want any advanced features but the scope is turned on 12 hours a day.

I know of one deal currently happening that's putting the Rigol DS2000s into some schools in an EU country.

[casper.bang]

Understood. Well, if you don't need to do much/any digital circuit debugging - and the current noise issues have been resolved - the Owon SDS7102V is a good deal (large screen, 10M per channel, battery-operated, VGA out, etc.) in that price range.

Interesting, what makes the DS2000 that much superior when it comes to digital circuit debugging... the 40% larger sample memory? The sample memory compression feature? The trigger options? I have the Owon SDS7102 as a candidate, but some of the similar Siglent models looks better build and with better UX.

[Hydrawerk]

Those Siglents have unspecified waveform update rate and low resolution screen up to 480×240 pixels or so.

[casper.bang]

Those Siglents have unspecified waveform update rate and low resolution screen up to 480×240 pixels or so.

Sure, they are no match for the DS2000. But compared to the 1052E?

[marmad]

Interesting, what makes the DS2000 that much superior when it comes to digital circuit debugging... the 40% larger sample memory? The sample memory compression feature? The trigger options? I have the Owon SDS7102 as a candidate, but some of the similar Siglent models looks better build and with better UX.

Well, I was making the case for the Owon vs. other sub-$500 scopes - and referring to the very slow waveform update rate on the Owon (as a hindrance to digital debugging). But yes, with the DS2000, there is the update speed, the segmented memory capture and analysis, the vast array of triggers (including protocols), and the optional protocol decoders - all of those are nice aids to have in digital design and debugging.

I don't really know much about the Siglents, but I'm sure there is tons of info scattered about this forum 

[marmad]

Sure, they are no match for the DS2000. But compared to the 1052E?

Again, I can't speak to the Siglents, but one other thing that the Rigols have - and which, as far as I know, no other Chinese manufacturer is doing yet (and which was very important to me as a programmer) - is providing a firmware-based set of SCPI (Standard Commands for Programmable Instruments) commands for external control - which makes it easy to create third party software - or use MatLAB, LabView, etc. - to grab data from the scope for external processing - or to control it remotely.

[Pentium100]

The new scope is nice, but since I already have the 1052E, I'll wait, maybe someday I'll be able to buy it for $400

Some of the new features look useful...

[cheepokleebo]

However, if you're like me; primarily a software engineer with a neglected but curious electronics past, occasionally tinkering with breadboards and can see the advantage of a basic scope over an advanced multimeter, there is a mighty big step from a 1052 to a 2072. I am in the marked for an beginner/hobby scope that improves on the 1052 for around $US500/€400. By several definitions, the 2000 series is not that.

I have bought both of these scopes for our school (and, actually both are the low BW model with a SW upgrade - it's a bit cheaper that way - I think Dave might be wrong about the SW upgradeability of the 2000 series). The DS2000 series is sexy and definitely pornographic. Looking at the DS1052 screen is like watching an old time peep-show with a scratchy B/W photos on a Rollodex type projector.  That said, I am not sure I will be able to justify an additional DS 2000 series scope when a DS1000 series with a nice LA (we use the DV3100) costs the same amount. Most of the time the scopes are used to see if we have a reasonably clean waveforms without too much  undershoot/overshoot, or if the edges are monotonic and somewhere down the line there is no double triggering of F/Fs. In this respect both scopes perform similarly. I swapped around the probes that came with the scopes and I really can't tell the difference.  And all the options (the bus decoders, the fancy triggers and the 56M memory)  on the DS2000 series are not that cheap. So if you are doing digital design, I would be tempted to spend the $400 on a nice LA (the DV3100 with 512K memory on all 16 channels and compression on top of does the trick for us).

[marmad]

I swapped around the probes that came with the scopes and I really can't tell the difference.

I can't really remember the probes all that well from when I owned the DS1052E - but it seems to me they had a less-solid feel than the DS2000s - but I could be wrong. One thing though (and I think Dave got this wrong in the video), I'm pretty sure all of the DS2000s come with the 350MHz probes - regardless of the BW of the scope - but I don't remember the probe BW of the DS1052s.

And all the options (the bus decoders, the fancy triggers and the 56M memory)  on the DS2000 series are not that cheap.

Are you aware that's it reasonably easy to just keep restarting the trial period for the options in the current firmware?

[EEVblog]

I am in the marked for an beginner/hobby scope that improves on the 1052 for around $US500/€400. By several definitions, the 2000 series is not that.

And by several other definitions, it is.
You could argue that intensity graduated display is the new entry level standard, and is an essential feature for beginners, so they don't miss as much detail on the waveform. Combine that with anti-aliasing and a scope with these feature is more fool proof, and should be the new beginner standard feature set.
You could argue that the 1052 has more traps for beginners in that respect.
It's not always all about price.

[EEVblog]

One thing though (and I think Dave got this wrong in the video), I'm pretty sure all of the DS2000s come with the 350MHz probes - regardless of the BW of the scope - but I don't remember the probe BW of the DS1052s.

I am of the understanding that the 70MHz model comes with the RP2200 probes instead of the RP3300 probes, but I could be wrong.
Can anyone confirm?

[DL5TOR]

One thing though (and I think Dave got this wrong in the video), I'm pretty sure all of the DS2000s come with the 350MHz probes - regardless of the BW of the scope - but I don't remember the probe BW of the DS1052s.

I am of the understanding that the 70MHz model comes with the RP2200 probes instead of the RP3300 probes, but I could be wrong.
Can anyone confirm?

just to confirm this is out of the rigol ds2000 datasheet

[marmad]

just to confirm this is out of the rigol ds2000 datasheet

It's a nice gesture from Rigol: wanting to make sure you're probe-ready when you hack it up to 200MHz 

[EEVblog]

just to confirm this is out of the rigol ds2000 datasheet

It's a nice gesture from Rigol: wanting to make sure you're probe-ready when you hack it up to 200MHz 

Cool, I stand corrected.
That's really nice.
Say you bought a cheap old high bandwidth analog for example, you'll have suitable probes.
Shame you can't software upgrade the bandwidth, but maybe that's a future thing?

[DL5TOR]

I just cheched my probs as i have a ds1102

thy are RP-2200

73 de DL5TOR
Torsten