Author Topic: EEVblog #451 - Rigol DS1052E vs DS2072 Oscilloscope  (Read 41375 times)

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Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #451 - Rigol DS1052E vs DS2072 Oscilloscope
« Reply #50 on: April 07, 2013, 10:21:44 pm »
Shame you can't software upgrade the bandwidth, but maybe that's a future thing?

I think they've been holding back on that option for now (as Agilent had done with the 1M and bus decoding for the X2000) - especially since they've had that price point to themselves for the last 9 months or so. It will interesting to see what happens now that the GW-Instek GDS-2000A has entered the fray. The 2 channel versions are priced almost exactly the same as the Rigol DS2000s - but the 4 channel versions seriously undercut Rigol's DS4000 prices - and actually create a whole new price point for a modern 4 channel scope with intensity grading, expandability, etc.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 10:26:29 pm by marmad »
 

Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: EEVblog #451 - Rigol DS1052E vs DS2072 Oscilloscope
« Reply #51 on: April 07, 2013, 10:44:15 pm »
Thanks for the video, Dave. How many automatic measurements can DS2000 do at the same time? The Agilent DSOX2000 can do four measurements and GW Instek GDS-2000A can do eight measurements at the same time.
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Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #451 - Rigol DS1052E vs DS2072 Oscilloscope
« Reply #52 on: April 07, 2013, 10:58:35 pm »
How many automatic measurements can DS2000 do at the same time?

Five (if not using Measure All).
 

Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: EEVblog #451 - Rigol DS1052E vs DS2072 Oscilloscope
« Reply #53 on: April 07, 2013, 10:58:57 pm »
Just a minor thing.
http://youtu.be/_TSr9nFN1GU?t=5m
Don't be confused with the fact that you will not find "segmented memory" in the user manual. It is called Waveform record.
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Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: EEVblog #451 - Rigol DS1052E vs DS2072 Oscilloscope
« Reply #54 on: April 07, 2013, 11:01:04 pm »
Marmad
OK, It is enough for a two channel scope... On the other hand, the four channel Agilent DSOX2000 can do only four measurements.  :( Not so good. And even no simultaneous use of cursors and auto measure together.  :-[
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Offline Teneyes

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Re: EEVblog #451 - Rigol DS1052E vs DS2072 Oscilloscope
« Reply #55 on: April 07, 2013, 11:02:50 pm »
Hi All,   My search for a new scope , lead me to many reviews.  and I learnt , what was important,
Digital, deep memory, bandwidth, sample rates, screen size, quality and costs.
I first looked at Rigol 1052E , then was thinking of Owon, almost ordered. Then  update rate after watching Agilent's video on need for fast update to catch rare events. I learnt that Rigol was source of low end DSO for Agilent and I almost bought the low end Agilent on special. but then came the DS2000.  It had what I was looking for , and I think Rigol learnt from Agilent.
I compared the cost of Rigol to the Agilent and said ok!   Maybe I jumped at it early, but bought the DS2072 back it Aug/2012.
Definitely NO Regrets!!!!! :-+ :-+
I was just helping a friend debug data stream and It was easy to show 24 bits on the wide screen, He commented his company using Tek had such small screens. I still have lots to learn with all the Options ;)

And I thank Marmad for the Great software to connect to my DS2072, for quick captures to forward on to people with such easy.

Below are some pics of my playing with the DSO and Marmad's software (already posted on other thread)
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 03:54:13 pm by Teneyes »
IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 

Offline majki

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Re: EEVblog #451 - Rigol DS1052E vs DS2072 Oscilloscope
« Reply #56 on: April 07, 2013, 11:07:32 pm »
I belive the DS1000 series is also capable  a very basic waveform recording and playback.
It is limited by the memory depth and the not so handy interface, but it exists.
 

Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #451 - Rigol DS1052E vs DS2072 Oscilloscope
« Reply #57 on: April 07, 2013, 11:29:28 pm »
I belive the DS1000 series is also capable  a very basic waveform recording and playback.
It is limited by the memory depth and the not so handy interface, but it exists.

It's true - but it's limited in another important way as well. Sometimes you want to use segments to quickly capture multiple occurrences of a signal (e.g. an edge or a pulse) and then run an analysis on the segments to see if there's any minor deviation. Well, the waveform update rate also affects how quickly you can record segments - the minimum rearm time. So the Agilent X3000 has a minimum rearm time of 1us for segments (1/1000000) and the X2000 and DS2000 have one of ~20us (although the DS2000 can be as short as  ~17.5 us when you use the Auto sample setting). But the DS1000 would have a much longer rearm time - something in the millisecond range - making it much less useful as an analysis tool. Also, I don't remember if the DS1000 time-tagged it's recorded frames or not - which is rather critical if trying to use it for debugging.
 

Offline Deckert

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Re: EEVblog #451 - Rigol DS1052E vs DS2072 Oscilloscope
« Reply #58 on: April 07, 2013, 11:53:05 pm »
Again, I can't speak to the Siglents, but one other thing that the Rigols have - and which, as far as I know, no other Chinese manufacturer is doing yet (and which was very important to me as a programmer) - is providing a firmware-based set of SCPI (Standard Commands for Programmable Instruments) commands for external control

The new v5 of the Siglent firmware supports SCPI. They also released EasyScopeX with a dramatically improved user interface (also available on all the siglent compatibles, eg. Atten, Xytron, etc). I was rather surprised to see that they did this and did so retroactively.

--deckert
 

Offline DL5TOR

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Re: EEVblog #451 - Rigol DS1052E vs DS2072 Oscilloscope
« Reply #59 on: April 07, 2013, 11:54:47 pm »
I belive the DS1000 series is also capable  a very basic waveform recording and playback.
It is limited by the memory depth and the not so handy interface, but it exists.

It's true - but it's limited in another important way as well. Sometimes you want to use segments to quickly capture multiple occurrences of a signal (e.g. an edge or a pulse) and then run an analysis on the segments to see if there's any minor deviation. Well, the waveform update rate also affects how quickly you can record segments - the minimum rearm time. So the Agilent X3000 has a minimum rearm time of 1us for segments (1/1000000) and the X2000 and DS2000 have one of ~20us (although the DS2000 can be as short as  ~17.5 us when you use the Auto sample setting). But the DS1000 would have a much longer rearm time - something in the millisecond range - making it much less useful as an analysis tool. Also, I don't remember if the DS1000 time-tagged it's recorded frames or not - which is rather critical if trying to use it for debugging.

I just checked my DS1102

It can do a recording

with a minimum of 1ms and up to 1000 frames

all based on what the menu gave me and with out verification (no gear to test it right now)

so I hope this helps

73 de DL5TOR
 

Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #451 - Rigol DS1052E vs DS2072 Oscilloscope
« Reply #60 on: April 07, 2013, 11:58:23 pm »
The new v5 of the Siglent firmware supports SCPI.

That's good to hear - I think it should be standard on all test and measurement gear.
 

Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #451 - Rigol DS1052E vs DS2072 Oscilloscope
« Reply #61 on: April 08, 2013, 12:05:32 am »
I just checked my DS1102

It can do a recording

with a minimum of 1ms and up to 1000 frames

That 1ms will be a delay in addition to the rearm time plus the acquire time, I'm fairly certain. You can test it easily to find out. The DS2000 lets you set that added delay down to 100ns - but that doesn't mean it can capture segments that fast.

The general formula for figuring out the minimum time between segments is: rearm time + (timebase * divisions) + delay setting.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 12:44:18 am by marmad »
 

Offline seb1982

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Re: EEVblog #451 - Rigol DS1052E vs DS2072 Oscilloscope
« Reply #62 on: April 08, 2013, 12:38:34 am »
That is exactly the video I've been waiting for - thank you so much, Dave!

My mind is now made up - DS2072 it is! Particularly if it is possible to keep re-setting the additional trigger options.  Who knew Rigol's painfully slow firmware fixing would have an up-side?!  ;D
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Offline DL5TOR

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Re: EEVblog #451 - Rigol DS1052E vs DS2072 Oscilloscope
« Reply #63 on: April 08, 2013, 12:46:59 am »
so did a basic test
Feq sweep 1000-20000 hz duration 2s/sweep (soundcard from PC)
 capured 1000 frames at 1ms delay 20us/div 12devisions
it needed  5 complet passes and the end freq is 17500Hz
that equates to a total time of 9.75s (aprox)-> 9.75ms/frame

9.75ms-1ms(delay)-(20ms/div*12)=8.5ms(aprox)

so that schuld do it. I know this was not a exact mesurment but it did the trick


73 de DL5TOR
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 12:52:51 am by DL5TOR »
 

Offline Salas

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Re: EEVblog #451 - Rigol DS1052E vs DS2072 Oscilloscope
« Reply #64 on: April 08, 2013, 02:02:12 am »
Hello Dave

You said you don't think there is something in the 1000 series that's not in the 2000. I remember the digital filter menu for that. It came handy to me many times when I had the hacked 1052E. Don't know if some spec or feature like the hi-res mode covers and renders it not worth including in the 2K series?
Anyway, selling the previous and upgrading to the new was a good move I don't regret. A quality jump. :-+
 

Offline poundy

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Re: EEVblog #451 - Rigol DS1052E vs DS2072 Oscilloscope
« Reply #65 on: April 08, 2013, 03:10:55 am »
So a quick look at the Emona website for current AU pricing (yes, ex GST)

DS1052 $329
DS1102 $399
DS2072 $839
DS2102 $1143
DS2202 $1626

So comparing 50MHz to 70MHz, the 2000 series features (better memory depth, screen, features etc) is worth $510 (155% of the DS1052E price).

Comparing 100MHz to 100MHz is $744 more (186% of DS1102E).

If you were still going to buy the 1000 series, to me it seems the DS1102E is the price point to choose now?  Yes, hacked option and all that, or get it legit for the same price as the 1052E was a few months back. 

What's the collective thoughts on benefit of the 70MHz versus 100MHz or 200MHz - not everyone has Dave's budget (certainly not as an enthusiast) or contacts to get great deals (but if you do, share them  O0 )
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #451 - Rigol DS1052E vs DS2072 Oscilloscope
« Reply #66 on: April 08, 2013, 03:45:53 am »
If you were still going to buy the 1000 series, to me it seems the DS1102E is the price point to choose now?  Yes, hacked option and all that, or get it legit for the same price as the 1052E was a few months back. 

Yes, you'd be a bit silly not too.
I think Emona offer a 3 year warranty too. No warranty if you hack it of course.
So the hack has been almost made redundant now.

Quote
What's the collective thoughts on benefit of the 70MHz versus 100MHz or 200MHz - not everyone has Dave's budget (certainly not as an enthusiast)

Try being an enthusiast 4 years or so back, the $400 price point scope market didn't exist!  :scared: (you lucky young whipper snappers!)
100MHz vs 70MHz is almost pointless. I'd go either 70MHz or 200MHz.
You could take a chance with the 70MHz that a hack might eventually be made available, or a software license upgrade option.
 

Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #451 - Rigol DS1052E vs DS2072 Oscilloscope
« Reply #67 on: April 08, 2013, 12:06:06 pm »
9.75ms-1ms(delay)-(20ms/div*12)=8.5ms(aprox)

so that schuld do it. I know this was not a exact mesurment but it did the trick

Thanks for the test, DL5TOR. It seems to show that the rearm time is included in the delay time - I haven't experimented enough with the DS2000 to see if that's the case with it as well. But I think your timing experiment has too many unknown variables to get a truly precise idea of the rearm time. For example, the difference between the 1ms setting and your calculated 1.25ms per segment is 200 waveforms per second. That might not seem very much, but at the lower end of the update rate spectrum, it makes quite a difference (average test time to see a glitch occurring 10 times per second [with 99% prob.] doubles: i.e. increases by ~2 hours). You might try the experiment again - at 200ns/div and at 2ns/div to see if they substantially alter the final result.

The problem is, as mentioned before, since 'recording' takes place at trigger events (except in P/F mode), without accurate time-tagging of captured segments - or good analysis software to use on the segments - the usefulness of the feature is quite limited. That is likely the reason you don't see much mention of the feature in the DS1000s.

Edit: As an example, here are two plots of segments from the DS2000 - that show a sine wave glitching into a square wave. The top one is done without using time-tags - and the bottom one with. It's clear that in the bottom image you get an idea of when the glitch actually occurred in the given period of time.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 01:18:26 pm by marmad »
 

Offline cengland0

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Re: EEVblog #451 - Rigol DS1052E vs DS2072 Oscilloscope
« Reply #68 on: April 08, 2013, 01:14:45 pm »
Awesome comparison.  I like it when people only show the differences because it simplifies things to show me what I'll gain with the extra expense and makes the video shorter.  Thanks Dave, I had this same question and you had an awesome answer.
 

Offline M0BSW

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Re: EEVblog #451 - Rigol DS1052E vs DS2072 Oscilloscope
« Reply #69 on: April 08, 2013, 02:39:06 pm »
 $800, that's to much for me to spend on a hobby, however the DS1052, would fill my needs, I'll have to see what they go for here in the UK, Uni T , sell scopes over here a lot, I'm also most to scared to ask what you think of them.
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Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: EEVblog #451 - Rigol DS1052E vs DS2072 Oscilloscope
« Reply #70 on: April 08, 2013, 04:35:08 pm »
Hi, Dave, please do a video about the zoom (aka delayed sweep) mode and XY mode of DS2000.
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Offline JackOfVA

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Re: EEVblog #451 - Rigol DS1052E vs DS2072 Oscilloscope
« Reply #71 on: April 08, 2013, 05:34:43 pm »
Here's an image saved from my Agilent MSO7034B, 1 MHz sine wave, 100% AM modulated with a 100Hz tone (generated from a Rigol DG4102 function generator) with the intensity turned down to about 30%.

When I looked at the 'scope display, it shows the expected analog-type image with a light interior and bright edges, but the print conversion function has distorted the colors and to an unfortunate degree the trace color density. (The 'scope display has a black background and a yellow trace, but the saved image inverts the background to white and makes the yellow trace more of a brownish color.)

And, by the way, Dave's waveform shows well over 100% modulation -- quite recognizable through the little "blips" instead of a narrow region of 0 voltage. The attached image is about 98% modulation depth.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #451 - Rigol DS1052E vs DS2072 Oscilloscope
« Reply #72 on: April 09, 2013, 05:01:38 am »
I belive the DS1000 series is also capable  a very basic waveform recording and playback.
It is limited by the memory depth and the not so handy interface, but it exists.

Yes, I stand corrected.
I had completely forgotten about that feature, as it's is buried away in the 2nd page of the utility menu!
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #451 - Rigol DS1052E vs DS2072 Oscilloscope
« Reply #73 on: April 09, 2013, 05:02:37 am »
And, by the way, Dave's waveform shows well over 100% modulation -- quite recognizable through the little "blips" instead of a narrow region of 0 voltage. The attached image is about 98% modulation depth.

Yes, I used 120% modulation.
 

Offline Salas

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Re: EEVblog #451 - Rigol DS1052E vs DS2072 Oscilloscope
« Reply #74 on: April 09, 2013, 11:44:55 pm »
...Me I had originally met Dave's blog when I was Googling info on the 1052E DSO. Remember the first 1052E EEVblog video? That was 4 yrs ago. Now compare his 1080 res 2013 presentation style, lab, and info galore. Well that is some sure progress! Its worth mentioning. Congrats Dave.



 


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