Author Topic: EEVblog #542 - ZD985 Desoldering Station  (Read 97263 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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EEVblog #542 - ZD985 Desoldering Station
« on: November 01, 2013, 09:17:05 am »
Review, teardown, and testing of the Rhino Tools ZD985 desoldering station on typical through-hole double sided and multi layer PCBs.
http://www.rhinotools.com.au/vacuum-desoldering-station/152-rt985-vacuum-desoldering-station.html
http://www.china-zhongdi.com/2013/?p=121

« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 12:52:05 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: EEVblog #542 - ZD985 Desoldering Station
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2013, 10:44:05 am »
This seems to be a rebadged Duratool D00672:

http://cpc.farnell.com/duratool/d00672/desoldering-station/dp/SD01384

'Course, that might well be a badged something else...
 

Offline sprocket

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Re: EEVblog #542 - ZD985 Desoldering Station
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2013, 10:49:09 am »
Yarrr. First  O0

I have one like yours, just in a different inclosure.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Duratool-D00672-Desoldering-Station-80W-De-Soldering-ZD-915-Faults-R2GK-/370670619489?pt=UK_Home_Garden_PowerTools_SM&hash=item564db0cb61

I very satisfied with mine.. Obviously it's not lab or factory grade desoldering station, but considering that, then it's one of my best bang for buck tools that I have.

I just hate those manual pumps, and solder wick is fine for a just desoldering a a couple of resistors. But anything more then a couple of resistors needing to be removed I tunr on my Duratool desoldring station.. Saved me soo much hassel and time in the past 6 months that I had it.. Should have bought one ages ago.  Cheap as donuts too. 80 punds or so I think it costed.

Cheers


Edit: Crap.. second I guess  :-DD
« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 10:51:54 am by sprocket »
 

Offline baljemmett

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Re: EEVblog #542 - ZD985 Desoldering Station
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2013, 11:09:26 am »
This seems to be a rebadged Duratool D00672:

'Course, that might well be a badged something else...

Yes - the ZD in the Rhino model number suggests the ODM is Zhongdi, who do a lot of this sort of kit.  Their website proved rather harder to find than I remembered, but this appears to be the same machine in its natural habitat.
 

Offline N2IXK

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Re: EEVblog #542 - ZD985 Desoldering Station
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2013, 11:23:41 am »
You might get even better results on those motherboard caps if you had used a tip better matched to the work.

You really want to use a tip with a hole just larger than the component lead. This gives the maximum amount of heat transfer from the tip into the pad and lead. You shouldn't be able to wiggle around nearly as much as you were.

Glad to see that the suction was sufficient. The unit I use at work (Metcal) uses a venturi tube to develop vacuum from compressed air, so no worries about pump failure. But the consumables (especially tips) are a LOT more expensive.

"My favorite programming language is...SOLDER!"--Robert A. Pease
 

Offline sprocket

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Re: EEVblog #542 - ZD985 Desoldering Station
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2013, 11:44:35 am »
Dave, why didn't you buy the Hakko 808 kit?


I think he admitted to being a cheap arse.  :P And so am I.. why on earth spend 4 times the money for some thing when the "cheapy" will do fine for the task at hand. I doubt it will be turned on 8 hours a day 7 days a week. Mine certainly isnt.
 

Offline JOERGG

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Re: EEVblog #542 - ZD985 Desoldering Station
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2013, 11:49:37 am »
Ningbo Zhongdi Electronic Tools Company Ltd is the manufacturer.

http://www.soldering-tool.com/3-desoldering-station.html

I bought the ZD-915 for only 64,95 € at Amazon in July this year, but it is not available at the moment.

http://www.amazon.de/Digitale-professionelle-Entl%C3%B6tstation-ZD-915-Vakuumpumpe/dp/B005CHA7IG

I am satisfied with the produkt for the price.

To open the connector you was on the right way by opening the cord grip. Then you unsrew the screw in the front that holds the black plastic insert in place. Turn then the insert counterclockwise and pull it out. After that you should be able to pull the metal body down the cord. It is a microphone connector as they use them for ham radio mics for example.
If i write funny things, because english is not my native language, feel free to laugh. It is not always easy to find the right expression.
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: EEVblog #542 - ZD985 Desoldering Station
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2013, 12:03:33 pm »
'Course, that might well be a badged something else...

but this appears to be the same machine in its natural habitat.

Looks a lot better there, I have to say. That Duratool corporate look could turn out to be a bit of a millstone.
 

Offline Excavatoree

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Re: EEVblog #542 - ZD985 Desoldering Station
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2013, 12:34:10 pm »
I'm watching the review now, so I'm not sure if I will be upset, and, if so how much.  I finally bit the bullet and bought a Hakko 472 (with 817 gun) for a bit over 500, I think.

I had been using a Weller that was a piece of crap.  I got tired of fighting it.  My dad got it for me, used.   It gives me the impression it was a piece of crap even when new.  Tips were difficult to find, and spare parts were getting difficult or impossible to find.

When I worked at the repair shop, I used something called the "solder gobbler" that didn't have a pump - it was just an iron with a venturi that you connected to a shop air compressor.  That think worked well and was less trouble than the Wellers that the boss and senior tech used.  I'd still use one (they are available on E-bay) but I didn't want to run an air line and keep my compressor on, especially for an iron with no temp control.  The Wellers were also models the used shop air - they worked better than those with the tiny vacuum pumps.

As a poor kid, I'd strip every old board I could get my hands on.  I still have many of those parts.

The Hakko 472 is larger, and "older" looking.  (not modern, no LCD, just LED for temp) The Gun holder is a lot better.  It works well and seems as if it will hold up well.  (no sponge holder, however.) It can be mounted on either side. 

The tube on the ZD985 looks as if it's interchangeable with the Hakko -it looks like the same spring, same filter, looks to be the same size tube, etc.  I bet the whole thing and the parts are interchangeable.  I find that one can use a cheap, hot air gun to drop the solder out of the spring to re-use.

The gun looks like it even takes the same tips as the similar Hakko 817.

The pump sounds the same.  I'm guessing they are at least similar.

I'm tempted to buy a second gun for a different tip, so I don't have to keep switching.

After watching, I'd say I would have put up with  the few problems Dave had for the 300 dollar savings, but, I don't think I regret the Hakko - it's very nice, but that's comparing it with the Weller.  Anyway, it's too late now. If I had, I may have said "I should have spent the money on the Hakko." 
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #542 - ZD985 Desoldering Station
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2013, 12:46:04 pm »
Dave, why didn't you buy the Hakko 808 kit?

I said that, it's something like $600 in Australia. Yes, I can import 110V and use a transformer, but I hate using those.
Plus I prefer the light weight head without the pump.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 12:47:55 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline deisenberg

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Re: EEVblog #542 - ZD985 Desoldering Station
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2013, 12:47:15 pm »
Can't find this unit on ebay for Canada. Perfect price for how often I would use it.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #542 - ZD985 Desoldering Station
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2013, 12:49:13 pm »
The tube on the ZD985 looks as if it's interchangeable with the Hakko -it looks like the same spring, same filter, looks to be the same size tube, etc.  I bet the whole thing and the parts are interchangeable.  I find that one can use a cheap, hot air gun to drop the solder out of the spring to re-use.
The gun looks like it even takes the same tips as the similar Hakko 817.

That would be very interesting  to know.
 

Offline mamalala

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Re: EEVblog #542 - ZD985 Desoldering Station
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2013, 01:05:53 pm »
And what was the real temperature at the nozzle compared to the setting? Did they use magic solder that changes the melting point depending on where it is?

Sure it is a cheap unit, but from the times you have given, i'd say it's really crap as well.

Greetings,

Chris
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #542 - ZD985 Desoldering Station
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2013, 01:11:32 pm »
And what was the real temperature at the nozzle compared to the setting? Did they use magic solder that changes the melting point depending on where it is?
Sure it is a cheap unit, but from the times you have given, i'd say it's really crap as well.

Huh? I don't understand what you are getting at here.
What times?
Actual tip temperature is a complex issue, and depends on a whole range of factors. Every soldering tool tip temperature will drop when placed on a large thermal mass component. Fact this this iron has more than adequate thermal performance for the job, it is not crap in that department.
 

Offline opticpow

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Re: EEVblog #542 - ZD985 Desoldering Station
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2013, 01:29:05 pm »
I've had one of these from Rhino for about 12 months now, and it does the job. I'm a hobbyist that can't justify keeping a large collection of new parts on hand, so I keep a supply of old boards around. If I can't find something in my parts bin, I can usually get it off a board.  I'm sure I've recovered the cost of the tool just in component savings!
 

Offline mamalala

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Re: EEVblog #542 - ZD985 Desoldering Station
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2013, 01:31:50 pm »
And what was the real temperature at the nozzle compared to the setting? Did they use magic solder that changes the melting point depending on where it is?
Sure it is a cheap unit, but from the times you have given, i'd say it's really crap as well.

Huh? I don't understand what you are getting at here.
What times?
Actual tip temperature is a complex issue, and depends on a whole range of factors. Every soldering tool tip temperature will drop when placed on a large thermal mass component. Fact this this iron has more than adequate thermal performance for the job, it is not crap in that department.

Once you set the tip to the joint, you get a drop in temperature. To get all the solder into a liquid state you can either drop a lot of "stored" temp into the joint, or have the joint kept a set temp. The former means you have to initially use a much higer temp then needed, because the tip cools down, to cover for the thermal losses. The latter means you have to have a very tight control loop. Seeing the warm-up time of that thing, i may use it for cooking eggs, but that's it.

In other words: The solder at some joint needs 217°C to melt. But it also has a connection to a big power/GND plane. What you put the gun at is "just a pad" in a multilayer board. However, the restring you are placing tha actual nozzle over is way smaller (thermally speaking) then the rest. Now you can either dump 320+ °C (which is over 100°C of the melting point already) into it, to get all the solder melting before the tip cools down too much, or you can have a tip that maintains a temp above the melting point of solder, no matter what the load.

Heck, you have a JBC already, you should know that thermal capacity is not only what the actial tip can store, but what the whole system can deliver on demand. Imagine you have a small pad on one side, connected to a GND plane in one of the inner layers, finishing at a small pad on the other side of the PCB. You may very well put way too much heat into the pad on the desoldering side to get it all melted. At which point it is basically delaminated from the PCB.

Greetings,

Chris

Edit: I used 217!C as an example because that is what the Stannol TSC KS100 lead-free solder i use melts at.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 01:36:36 pm by mamalala »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #542 - ZD985 Desoldering Station
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2013, 01:37:56 pm »
Heck, you have a JBC already, you should know that thermal capacity is not only what the actial tip can store, but what the whole system can deliver on demand.

Of course I know that.
But when it comes to the Rhino in question, I'm claiming (and have demonstrated) it has adequate thermal capacity for the job. IMO (without doing actual side-by-side controlled experiments) equivalent to the Hakko and Pace desoldering tools I have used.
Not industry leading performance to be sure, but probably adequate for most jobs.
You can't use the slow power-on ramp up time as an indicator which is seems to be what you are getting at, and is could be ramping up slowly deliberately. Indeed, if it was a true indicator of thermal performance, then it shouldn't have worked at all for a lot of the repeated joint applications I tried with it. But it does work, and the thermal performance seems pretty good. So I think you are wrong by claiming it is crap without having tried it.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 01:42:02 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline mamalala

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Re: EEVblog #542 - ZD985 Desoldering Station
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2013, 01:51:21 pm »
Heck, you have a JBC already, you should know that thermal capacity is not only what the actial tip can store, but what the whole system can deliver on demand.

Of course I know that.
But when it comes to the Rhino in question, I'm claiming (and have demonstrated) it has adequate thermal capacity for the job. IMO (without doing actual side-by-side controlled experiments) equivalent to the Hakko and Pace desoldering tools I have used.
Not industry leading performance to be sure, but probably adequate for most jobs.

Sure, and i never questioned that. What i was inquiring is what temp it initially dumps into a small joint. At one place you yourself had to crank up the temp to a ridiculous setting, compared to what solder actually melts at, to get stuff done. And that temp simply is a risk to to the copper cladding/lamination stuff, not to mention the part itself. No need to wiggle around much to get a pad delaminated at those temps. You even suspected you had done so at one place. With a proper tool you would not have had that suspicion.

My thinking is that this is quite important to hobbyists who want to re-use parts. "Did i desolder it correctly?" "Why does my thing not work?" Parts _can_ get damaged due to overtemp. And the hobbyist is left chasing some ghosts just because the way (s)he desoldered it has actually damaged it.

Getting a blob of solder to melt is easy. A red hot glowing piece of metal can do that just nice, even on 12 layer boards. Getting those parts out in a way that the actual board (or the part) can be used again, that is a different matter.

Greetings,

Chris
 

Offline Rasz

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Re: EEVblog #542 - ZD985 Desoldering Station
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2013, 03:47:48 pm »
Oh Dave, you believed Chinese LCD temperature readout :DDDDDDDDDDDD
now take a thermocouple and check again temp drop when you start to suck. Chinese thermostats almost never show real temperature, even if you have separate set and read displays. They usually show real value until it reaches ~10'C around set state, then some magic happens and you end up with the most stable pid in the world :). Its that whole 'better lie than say something unpleasant' east mentality.

AU price is painful, zd-915 is $75 in Poland.

Btw thermal capacity didnt impress, needing to bump temperature to desolder from motherboard pcb means software inside is total shit and couldnt compensate for temp drop at the tip


watching you work it made me come up with an invention - Vibration motor mounted at the tip! :D
« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 03:52:35 pm by Rasz »
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Offline jeremy

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Re: EEVblog #542 - ZD985 Desoldering Station
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2013, 06:07:35 pm »
I'm looking for a decent desoldering gun (hakko, pace, metcal, weller, etc) that doesn't need shop air for around the $600-800 mark. I'm in australia, so most prices are a complete ripoff (>$1000). Any suggestions? The hakkos on tequipment look nice, but they are 110V only :(
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #542 - ZD985 Desoldering Station
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2013, 08:31:29 pm »
Sure, and i never questioned that. What i was inquiring is what temp it initially dumps into a small joint. At one place you yourself had to crank up the temp to a ridiculous setting, compared to what solder actually melts at, to get stuff done.

Ridiculous temperature?  :-//
I upped it to 350C, or IIRC 380C at one point.
FYI 370C (700F) has been the standard supplied fixed tip temperature on Weller and other fixed temp irons since the dawn of time, and is the recommended temp for "normal" applications by many manufacturers. 600F (315C) is recommend for "sensitive stuff". So if my 350C/380C is "ridiculous" then the entire industry has been doing it wrong for many decades.
Better designed high capacity irons manufactures like Metcal for example recommend 600F (315C) for "normal" work and 700F (370C) for ground planes and other heavier work, almost precisely what I used for this non-high capacity iron (which technically should be higher than a metcal). Do you think Metcal is wrong in their recommendations?, let alone wrong for a lesser thermal capacity iron?
400C would have started to get a bit on the "ridiculous" side perhaps, but certainly not 350C or even 380C.
60/40 solder melts at 190C, good luck trying to solder anything at 200C, or even 250C in many cases.

« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 08:45:21 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline AmmoJammo

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Re: EEVblog #542 - ZD985 Desoldering Station
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2013, 08:35:37 pm »
Ridiculous temperature?  :-//
I upped it to 350C, or IIRC 380C at one point.
FYI 370C (700F) has been the standard supplied fixed tip temperature on Weller and other fixed temp irons since the dawn of time, and is the recommended temp for "normal" applications by many manufacturers. 600F (315C) is recommend for "sensitive stuff". So if my 350C/380C is "ridiculous" then the entire industry has been doing it wrong for many decades.
400C would have started to get a bit "ridiculous", but certainly not 350C or even 380C.
60/40 solder melts at 190C, good luck trying to solder anything at 200C, or even 250C in many cases.

I run my iron at 400 degrees daily.... for anywhere upto 8 hours a day... I do electronics assembly for a living! :p

I wouldn't even consider 400 degrees to be "ridiculous" its efficient! you can get the heat into the board and component leg quicker, meaning you spend less time heating it, and often actually get less heat into the rest of the component! ;)
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #542 - ZD985 Desoldering Station
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2013, 08:36:50 pm »
Btw thermal capacity didnt impress, needing to bump temperature to desolder from motherboard pcb means software inside is total shit and couldnt compensate for temp drop at the tip

The Hakko's are no better IME.
BTW, I probably didn't need to increase the tip temp, it might have been better with a more optimised tip size , or applying more solder first, or simply leaving it a bit longer at the lower temp.
There is a lot to optimise when it comes to desoldering temps.
 

Offline dr_p

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Re: EEVblog #542 - ZD985 Desoldering Station
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2013, 09:04:30 pm »
 

Offline Ericho

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Re: EEVblog #542 - ZD985 Desoldering Station
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2013, 09:11:57 pm »
Quote
The Hakko's are no better IME.

I agree used them before

I also have a auoye 474 at home, a 70w analog older device, it works as good and as slow as the ZD985.

A large part is technique anyway. no matter is you own $100 or $1000 good working one. If you don't get it the first time you could waste a lot of time on that pin.

The holder and case of my 474 seems a bit better build than the ZD985
 
 


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