EEVblog #578 - Proprietary Connector Rant

[EEVblog]

Dave hates products with built in charging that don't use a standard Micro USB connector.
In this case the Panasonic Lumix LF1 with its stupid proprietary connector.
Why in this day and age of attempted standardisation are companies still doing this?

[ishelly404]

I have a Sony camera (Don't remember the model off the top of my head) with a micro USB connector and internal battery charger and everything, but it won't charge with any cable but the Sony one.  It gives an error about a non genuine cable when I try to use any other.

Sony...

[neotesla]

One would have thought that the "Universal" (in USB) would give them a clue...

[mariush]

I have a Sony camera (Don't remember the model off the top of my head) with a micro USB connector and internal battery charger and everything, but it won't charge with any cable but the Sony one.  It gives an error about a non genuine cable when I try to use any other.

Sony...

The Sony CX410VE hd camera I bought last Black Friday came with standard microHDMI, standard USB (cable that hides in the strip which goes around you hand) , standard sdhc/sdxc and charges from usb or external adapter. Really, the only proprietary stuff is the memory stick support.

The old camera I had - a Sony HDR-SR5E - was not charging from usb at all, had to use the external adapter to charge it.

[Alan Liefting]

Yep, I agree.  It is not just cameras of course.  Remember when DC connectors were only 2.5 and 3.5 mm.  Then along came 2.1 mm and now look at all of the different sizes! Laptops, inkjet printers, and mobile phones have a huge range of sizes and styles.  Some variation is understandable for the range of current consumption but the wide variety of connectors now out there is just going too far!

Note that the mobile phone manufacturers that sell in the EU countries have decided on the micro USB-B standard for phone chargers.

Now don't get me started on the lack of lithium battery size standardisation! 

[timelessbeing]

Dave makes in-camera charging sound like big feature. I thought it was pretty common. 

Funny he should exemplify Sony, though. My Sony camera had a USB lookalike proprietary connector. Not only that, but when it was plugged in, it blocked you from opening the battery/SD card hatch. The motorized lens stopped working after about a year and a half. What a POS that was.

[orion242]

I almost spit my drink out when Dave tossed the bird at the camera.

Nice!!  F special connectors!

[timelessbeing]

Now don't get me started on the lack of lithium battery size standardisation! 

Yeah like the batteries which only fit ONE particular model of camera. 

[EEVblog]

Dave makes in-camera charging sound like big feature. I thought it was pretty common. 

Nope, the majority of cameras I looked at do not charge in-camera.

[timelessbeing]

Fair enough. All my previous ones did, but I haven't done any research lately. Perhaps they're doing so they can shrink the cameras in the race to one-up the competition. In-camera charging is a must have feature if you ask me (in addition to standard connectors of course).

[rollatorwieltje]

My old HTC phone had a proprietary USB port that also accepted standard mini-USB cables. I guess micro-USB is too small for a trick like that.

[Jon86]

Come on Dave, let's see you fit a real Micro USB connector in it

[moemoe]

And even the combined A/V-Output is no reason for this proprietary shit.

Some old phone had an A/V-Out on the Mini-USB-Connector, and as Micro-USB has even one pin more (5+shield), there is no good reason at all for not using it. Even if you use one of these lines for sensing purposes, there are still 3+GND left.

[Ondre]

Dave, please show us how you go medieval on the camera's connector using a pair of pliers and a blow torch! 

[iloveelectronics]

Would something like this be compatible with that connector?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-Data-Cable-for-Nikon-UC-E6-8P-S200di-S220-S230-S560-S620-S630-S710-S10-S200-/261391662695

This kind of 8-pin connector is actually quite common on devices like music/video players and some cameras.

[headwes]

I have the same complaint about my Sony DSC-TX20. Unfortunately the TX series is the only one I could find that is small and waterproof with an integrated lens cover so I'm stuck with it (and thus carrying around a special cable).

[Bored@Work]

The following screen shot might come handy in the future

[firewalker]

"Dave on a quiet weekend.png" 

Alexander.

[nitro2k01]

Dave, congratulations, what you have there is the closest thing I've found to a standard in camera USB connectors. It appears on at least TWO brands of cameras, namely Panasonic, and Nikon. At least Nikon's point and shoots, don't know about their DSLRs. Panasonic and Nikon share the same factory? :p
(Yes, this is the same connector as in iloveelectronics's post.)

And no, "digital" doesn't mean HDMI. It simply means USB. The only AV signals coming out of that connector are analog audio and composite video. My Panasonic Lumix DMC-LS2, which was my first digital camera, has this connector and was released in 2006, which means it predates the release of micro-USB by a year. And to be precise, this camera doesn't use the USB logo anywhere on its case, on the cable plugs, in the camera's user interface, or in the manual. This makes me think that maybe there was something (that connector? ) that was not USB compliant which forced them to leave out the logo, and maybe also use the word "digital" instead of USB on the case.

I don't mind this connector per se. At least it actually fills a purpose (or did back when composite was the preferred video standard anyway.) Having three RCA sockets (composite+stereo audio) on a compact camera would be unthinkably large, so might as well integrate it into another port. If only the manufacturers would have gotten their act together and standardized on a single connector for the purpose!

I have a Sony camera (Don't remember the model off the top of my head) with a micro USB connector and internal battery charger and everything, but it won't charge with any cable but the Sony one.  It gives an error about a non genuine cable when I try to use any other.

Sony...

I have a few questions about that. How many different ones have you tried? Are you talking about a cable or a wall charger with a micro USB on the end? If you're talking about a cable, is this a data cable or a cheap-arse "charge only" cable with only two wires in it? Are you sure that this message means what it's saying? I could totally believe that Sony and their likes would display such a self-righteous message if, say, the cable has a too high voltage drop, or it's missing the otherwise common resistors used to present two constant voltages on the data line in order to indicate the charge current that a charger supports.

Dave makes in-camera charging sound like big feature. I thought it was pretty common. 

Nope, the majority of cameras I looked at do not charge in-camera.

Just to be clear, does this refer to cameras that use AA batteries or similar, or system cameras with chunkier batteries and an external charger? In the former case, well that's just cheap crap where the batteries are the least of the reasons for avoiding them. In the latter case I can understand not wanting to be limited be the current limit of USB, if the battery has any significant capacity.

[woox2k]

My old HTC phone had a proprietary USB port that also accepted standard mini-USB cables. I guess micro-USB is too small for a trick like that.

My old phone had the same connector and it worked quite well, it was back of these days they tried to standardize mini-USB. To be honest i always liked mini-USB more than micro, because micro connectors are quite fragile and it's bit too easy to break them off the pcb by accident (dropping the phone while cable is connected and so on). Right now i have phone with microUSB and i havent abused it in any way, the microUSB port has worn out and disconnects every time i move the cable.
I don't get it why they didn't just stay with mini-USB, i know devices are getting smaller and smaller but the mini port isn't so big and it has options to expand the connector with more pins. (USB3? Even HTC custom mini had 11pins so it would have been possible to use USB3 in it without making that weird looking dual connector thingie like with micro-USB)

[VK5RC]

Have you tried cleaning the rubbish out of the micro USB socket? I had a phone that collected lint in the micro USB (from my pocket) Cleaning it out with a very fine tooth pick under magnification worked a treat.

[ResR]

All the apple.inc garbage has also those proprietary connectors with too many pins.
About the camera, I have a Pentax Optio E30, been with me for 7 years, it's proprietary connector resembling USB has seen a lot of heavy use and moisture because the port has no cover but it is still operational, has two removable AA batteries, but no in-camera charging option though, but I can use built-for-purpose Duracell charger that works like a charm with any rechargeable so far.

[JoannaK]

Dave.. just wait untill you want to purchase a spare/replavement Battery to your Camera. Companies like Panasonic (and sony?) have all batteries Chipped, and allmost all cameras have their unique battery type. And belive me, those are **** expesive.

[george graves]

Nope, the majority of cameras I looked at do not charge in-camera.

I know - WHAT THE HECK!  You're sucking on a UBS connection, at least trickle charge the darn battery.

And Dave - I love the stuff you do, but you need to rant harder if you want a video like this to go "viral"!!!!!

[EEVblog]

Dave.. just wait untill you want to purchase a spare/replavement Battery to your Camera. Companies like Panasonic (and sony?) have all batteries Chipped, and allmost all cameras have their unique battery type. And belive me, those are **** expesive.

My canon camcorders used chipped batteries, so I simply buy chipped replacement ones on Amazon.

[EEVblog]

I know - WHAT THE HECK!  You're sucking on a UBS connection, at least trickle charge the darn battery.

500mA is hardly trickle charging.
Works great for phones and tablets, so no excuse for similar or usually smaller batteries in cameras.

[george graves]

Yea, so give my camera battery a 50ma charge.  Easy as pie?  All I know if that my camera is happy to stay on, while connect to USB, and not getting a charge.   Must be the same chip they are all using.  Must have not been a feature.  Or only a feature on higher end cameras.

Considering cell phones and tablets(new ones anyways)  are now happy with a 2 amp charge?  Don't you think a 500ma is a "sip" - maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt it will stop at 2 amps.  What's the iphone 5 connector worth amp wise?

[Frost]

Note that the mobile phone manufacturers that sell in the EU countries have decided on the micro USB-B standard for phone chargers.

But not by themselves, they were forced by the european commission.
In 2009 they reached a voluntary agreement with several manufacturers
but a few manufacturers, like Apple, ignore the commitment till this day,
so you have to buy an additional adapter to charge the iPhone
with a micro USB cable.

This year there will be a new attempt from the european parliament
to sign a new EU law, that will require all companies to ensure,
that all new mobile devices can be charged with the same standard
battery charger.

[nowlan]

There usb charging ICs produced by lots of manufacturers. The mobile phone industry have pushed low power consumption. No reason charging should not be included in the device.

Unless the camera was a power hog, and needed to swap batteries out frequently, then put the effort in a cradle.

As for keeping track of all the cables, I have rats nest under the desk.

[Terabyte2007]

Dave, I love this rant! I deal with RS232 quite a bit in my job, we find that it is not standard from MFG to MFG as you would think. As we say in the field, RS stands for "Recommended Standard" meaning follow if you like but not required. And believe me it shows it's ugly head all the time!

[rsjsouza]

In my opinion what is worse than having a proprietary connector is to have a standard USB one that only accepts their own chargers as they need to communicate with the host to initiate the charging - I was left with dead batteries in a trip or two.

My wife's old Motorola Razr was like that: you couldn't charge it with a standard USB charger and not even if you plugged it into a PC without Motorola's device drivers (you needed to purchase them).

More recently my father gave me his Samsung Galaxy Tab 7 (original) that also has a similar "feature": the tablet has a proprietary connector that has a nice USB port on the other end. However, it can't charge with a plain dumb charger - it must talk to its minions inside the Samsung-approved charger.

My old HTC phone had a proprietary USB port that also accepted standard mini-USB cables. I guess micro-USB is too small for a trick like that.

I have one of these. Brilliantly engineered!

[electronics man]

I love a rant

[Macbeth]

Dave, I love this rant! I deal with RS232 quite a bit in my job, we find that it is not standard from MFG to MFG as you would think. As we say in the field, RS stands for "Recommended Standard" meaning follow if you like but not required. And believe me it shows it's ugly head all the time!

To be fair, the RS232 standard is so ancient that to fully support needs DB-25 connectors and large +/-25 voltages that may have been used back in the days of teletypes, punch cards and paper tape. Things like DSR/DSR/RI are obsolete too. Most "RS232" interfaces require only RX/TX/GND, with CTS/RTS only needed for small buffer UARTs or perhaps serial networks.

[Prime73]

I think this is the best example of a proprietary Universal Serial Bus cable


This is Apple's USB extension cable - you can't even connect two of them together. Plug on one end doesn't physically fit into a jack on the other.

[c4757p]

This is Apple's USB extension cable - you can't even connect two of them together. Plug on one end doesn't physically fit into a jack on the other.

Pretty sure that's the point. Eliminates the "I connected 1042 extension cables together and my device doesn't work!!!11!" support calls.

[hikariuk]

Dave, I love this rant! I deal with RS232 quite a bit in my job, we find that it is not standard from MFG to MFG as you would think. As we say in the field, RS stands for "Recommended Standard" meaning follow if you like but not required. And believe me it shows it's ugly head all the time!

I only found out recently it actually stood for Radio Sector (of the EIA).

[calzap]

Couldn't agree more with Dave.  And like other posters, I've encountered the same problem with cell phones, Nikon cameras and Samsung tablets.  I remember acquiring a very versatile Sony monitor in the late 1980's that could handle composite, RGB, S-video and respond to LANC commands.  Problem was to use all the features, a proprietary connector was required.  Had to buy it direct from Sony for US $25.

As long as they get away with it, it will continue because it generates income from selling adapters, cables, chargers, etc.  What can stop it? Government regs, safety rating agencies (but they aren't that concerned unless it really does affect safety) or  consumer rating organizations.  I've never seen one of the latter down-rate a device for having a proprietary connector.

Mike in California

[Rory]

So Dave, are you sending it back for a refund and finding another camera with the proper charging jack?

[Wytnucls]

The Sony PDA UX50 was also pretty frustrating. It had a mini USB connector, but could only be used for communication. It came with a lame docking station and a biggish mains connector.

[Rutger]

Had the same problem with Olympus XZ-1 and Panasonic LX7. 
The Olympus had in camera charging, but uses some proprietary connector called 'CB-USB6'. They supply the cable but is only 1 foot long and only work on the camera, so I returned it.
Then I got the Panasonic LX7, great camera, but no in camera charging and again they use this specific cable 'UC-E6'.  Also returned it.
Then I looked at the Olympus XZ-2 camera, with in camera charging, but is uses another specific cable the 'CB-USB8'. So I don't think I will be ordering it.

As far as some cameras not having in camera charging, could it have something to do with battery voltage?  I noticed the Olympus 4/3 cameras don't allow in camera charging, but most of these batteries are 7.2 V.

[rollatorwieltje]

I have a Nokia C1-01 somewhere that has a USB port and a tiny barrel connector next to it for charging. It won't charge from USB, it only charges from the barrel connector.
A special USB to mini barrel cable can be bought separately if you want to charge it with your PC, it contains a tiny boost converter to 5.7V 

[tom66]

I recall having a camera which had a phono output for video and also USB.  Came with a phono to USB cable....It always confused me why they didn't use a mini USB port and supply an AV cable for video output; they had basically all the ingredients there just the wrong connector...

[JoannaK]

As far as some cameras not having in camera charging, could it have something to do with battery voltage?  I noticed the Olympus 4/3 cameras don't allow in camera charging, but most of these batteries are 7.2 V.

Olympus traditionally (at least on 4/3´s)  has used the same connector for data transfer and wired remote. Not sure about those pocket cameras but I would expect same to happen on those.

One good thing on Oly µ4/3 series (Pens and Om-D) is that those all have exactly the *same* battery and it's not even chipped so it's easy and cheap to get a backup (or two). it's not at nice as having charger in camera, but otoh not so bad.

[Smokey]

I know this isn't the point of this thread, but mini-USB sucks for device charging.  It's just too damn small and fragile.  I don't care how much PCB reinforcement you put, one topple off the desk at the wrong unfortunate angle and that SMD header is gone.  And if your only way to charge the damn thing is through the USB....  I don't think I've ever seen a single device that had a through hole properly anchored mini-usb connector.  And if you manage to not break the thing off the PCB, they wear out pretty fast and end up with lose dodgy connections.  How many cell phones have to be contorted into just the right position so the cable makes good enough connection to charge?

Complain all you want about barrel jack power connectors, but at least they can take a beating.  I'd say mini-usb is the absolute minimum. if you HAD to put power and data on the same jack.

[DomesticHacks]

One problem when you allow the user to connect all kind of different chargers to your device is, that you have to support all of them. Some USB chargers for example don't implement the charging power selection etc. Yes, you culd solve this problems with standards, but most of the time it costs money to use them.

[Gribo]

Sometimes you need proprietary connectors, especially when dealing with certifying bodies (FCC, UL and the likes), a special connector can save you lots of head aches and money with these clerks.

[TVman]

The only reason they do that is to tick people off.....

[open loop]

Does the special Panasonic cable do anything to the 5 V on he USB? If not I wonder how much fun it would be to de-solder the proprietary connector and "shoe horn" a standard micro USB connector in its place. Given that connector pitch is going to be different for starters I suspect this would be a very entertaining video 

Go on Dave! 

[Insoft]

One connector that should of never have been invented is the micro USB, it is so prone to damage as users tend to damage it by not knowing the correct way round, as bad as Apple's 30pin dock connector that also had this issue, the new Apple connection great, just wack it in any way round you fancy, no pins just solid metal contacts and can handle high bandwidth digital, magnetic connection would of been perfect.

Only if they put a decent key on the micro USB it would be ok.

And Mobiles, NOKIA the king of strange power cables, what was the point of it all, why didn't they use micro USB or a good old 2.5 2.1 or smaller type connector

And phone manufacturers in the EU only use micro USB because of the stupid EU law, if they use micro USB then consumers only need one AC adaptor to power them all and keep waste down, we know that can't happen as not all devices are rated the same amp and were no better off, just loads of chargers with the same micro USB just waiting for some consumer to plug in a low amp rated micro USB charger to a high rated amp device.

Love Apple response to the EU, they give them the finger and came out with a new connector replacing the 30pin that the EU requested Apple to change to micro, in the end the EU had to amend the law and allow it as long a adaptor to take a micro USB can be used.

[EEVblog]

One connector that should of never have been invented is the micro USB, it is so prone to damage as users tend to damage it by not knowing the correct way round

Everyone keeps harping on about them breaking etc.
I've never broken or damaged a single one, or had one fail, ever.

[Insoft]

I think this is the best example of a proprietary Universal Serial Bus cable


This is Apple's USB extension cable - you can't even connect two of them together. Plug on one end doesn't physically fit into a jack on the other.

They is a good reason for that cable, first it came with the Mac and could only plug the keyboard in it so the user did not make the mistake of using it for the Mouse, as the mouse plugged into the keyboard and the keyboard plugged into the computer.  After all it was referred to as the keyboard extension cable

[Insoft]

One connector that should of never have been invented is the micro USB, it is so prone to damage as users tend to damage it by not knowing the correct way round

Everyone keeps harping on about them breaking etc.
I've never broken or damaged a single one, or had one fail, ever.

I have never broken one, I would like it better if it had a decent key to it.
But have seen a lot of devices come in for repair because of battered micro USB ports.

I like the mini USB best, decent key on it and small.

[Frost]

And phone manufacturers in the EU only use micro USB because of the stupid EU law

There's no such law in the EU

[Monkeh]

And phone manufacturers in the EU only use micro USB because of the stupid EU law

There is no such law, do some research.

we know that can't happen as not all devices are rated the same amp and were no better off, just loads of chargers with the same micro USB just waiting for some consumer to plug in a low amp rated micro USB charger to a high rated amp device.

You.. apparently don't know much. We know that it works just fine and there's no problem, as devices can detect how much current the charger can supply. Fires do not result.

[Monkeh]

One connector that should of never have been invented is the micro USB, it is so prone to damage as users tend to damage it by not knowing the correct way round

Everyone keeps harping on about them breaking etc.
I've never broken or damaged a single one, or had one fail, ever.

I've never broken one, but I've seen the result of SMT-only ones being broken, and it's pretty catastrophic.

There are versions with through-hole pins which greatly improve the strength of the connector.

I've also never had a dodgy connection with mine.. might be that I keep them clean? Odd thought, taking care of one's property..

[bluejonah]

I've never broken a micro usb. But I went through two *absurdly* expensive apple branded iPad connectors before buying a belkin brand that was *lightyears* better than the crap apple version. And it's never broken. Also, it was half the price of the apple brand.

Also, why does Dave refer to himself in the third-person on vid posts? lol did I miss something?
Finally, it was, um... a little disturbing seeing Dave this angry. I've never seen an Aussie get angry. It was odd; very odd.

[EEVblog]

Also, why does Dave refer to himself in the third-person on vid posts?

It's fun.
And it really pisses off some people who complain about it, which of course makes it ever more fun!

[vikpc]

i 100% agree with this video... i have lots of gadgets with proprietary connectors.. and this is get me angry too.
I have Olimpus Pen EPL-3 i lova this camera but i need wear bag with charging dock usb wires.. card readers
btw.. 99.9% china products have normal Mini or Micro USB charging sockets... only big companies make  strange sockets.

[electrolux]

Don't get under Dave's skin,it's dangerous!

[EEVblog]

Someone must have sent the video to Panasonic AU:

Dear Dave,
 
Thank you for taking the time to contact Panasonic with your enquiry regarding the digital still camera.
 
Could you please supply a contact number that is able to be used during business hours? We will need to speak to you direct in regards to your email.
                                   
Kind Regards,       
Gavin                                     
Customer Service Representative
Customer Care Centre
P 132 600   
E ccc@panasonic.com.au     
W www.panasonic.com.au     

Yeah right, I'm going to call them...

[mikeselectricstuff]

Someone must have sent the video to Panasonic AU:

Dear Dave,
 
Thank you for taking the time to contact Panasonic with your enquiry regarding the digital still camera.
 
Could you please supply a contact number that is able to be used during business hours? We will need to speak to you direct in regards to your email.
                                   
Kind Regards,       
Gavin                                     
Customer Service Representative
Customer Care Centre
P 132 600   
E ccc@panasonic.com.au     
W www.panasonic.com.au     

Yeah right, I'm going to call them...

..maybe if someone explains to them one-to-one exactly why they messed up, it might get fed back.

[rsjsouza]

Finally, it was, um... a little disturbing seeing Dave this angry. I've never seen an Aussie get angry. It was odd; very odd.

It is a known feature of his blog; this other one came to mind, but there are other rants if you watch the complete series...

[bitwelder]

Yeah right, I'm going to call them...

or rather you can go with Rant^2 : It ticks me off when I get unsolicited invitations from customer support...
 

[bluejonah]

ROFL Why do they think calling them will solve anything!? What? Are they going to recall all of panasonic's equipment with the stupid connector? Baha! Yom K! *SarcastaFace*

Finally, it was, um... a little disturbing seeing Dave this angry. I've never seen an Aussie get angry. It was odd; very odd.

It is a known feature of his blog; this other one came to mind, but there are other rants if you watch the complete series...

 Oh yeah totally forgot about the near-death multimeter! HA!

[EEVblog]

..maybe if someone explains to them one-to-one exactly why they messed up, it might get fed back.

Because they are customer support drones, and from backwater Australia no less. The best they can do is file an internal feedback form that just gets lost in the thousands of others from every crackpot who calls.
My video and the thousand of likes and comments stands on it's own.

[amyk]

Now don't get me started on the lack of lithium battery size standardisation! 

18650? BL-4C?

An interesting side-effect of all the cloning that goes on in China is that it has created a lot of pseudo-standards, and quite practical ones too, because the mentality of "copy someone else's design because it works" is just very conducive to standardisation. E.g. you can find a lot more soldering iron tips with the original Hakko 936 dimensions than anything else, 858D-style rework stations use one of very few heater types, generic smartphones almost all use one of very few sizes of batteries (probably a clone of some major brand's...). And no one really uses anything besides USB.

[Dave Turner]

Don't like proprietary connectors myself; it ends up needing a bigger bag when traveling.

Having said that I do prefer to carry a battery charger and spare batteries. That way I can continue working rather than have to wait while the camera is on charge.

[nitro2k01]

Accept their offer and record the call. Though, as you're saying, you'll likely just get to talk to a customer support drone.

[bluejonah]

..maybe if someone explains to them one-to-one exactly why they messed up, it might get fed back.

Because they are customer support drones, and from backwater Australia no less. The best they can do is file an internal feedback form that just gets lost in the thousands of others from every crackpot who calls.
My video and the thousand of likes and comments stands on it's own.

I know this sounds stupid... but there's a backwater of Australia? Like, the Mississippi of Australia?

[ludzinc]

Yeah.  It's called Adelaide.

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/rain-falling-in-adelaide-causes-widespread-flooding-and-commuter-chaos-and-is-our-wettest-day-in-45-years/story-fni6uo1m-1226825879645

**Disclaimer.  I'm from Adelaide.  I can say it, but you watch it chief

[hikariuk]

..maybe if someone explains to them one-to-one exactly why they messed up, it might get fed back.

Because they are customer support drones, and from backwater Australia no less. The best they can do is file an internal feedback form that just gets lost in the thousands of others from every crackpot who calls.
My video and the thousand of likes and comments stands on it's own.

I know this sounds stupid... but there's a backwater of Australia? Like, the Mississippi of Australia?

Isn't most of Australia a backwater?

[SeanB]

Most of Australia is a desert, except in the north where there is a jungle and crocodiles.

[bluejonah]

I live in the middle of nowhere in Kentucky. So when someone says "backwater" I'm like "wait.... backwater as in 'just outside the suburbs' or backwater as in 'it'll take several driving hours to get there because that's the only way to get there' backwater?". I live in the latter. lol

[Macbeth]

Most of Australia is a desert, except in the north where there is a jungle and crocodiles.

Don't forget the Cassowary! 

[SeanB]

So there are small birds there as well... Who would guess.