Bullshit? With the right marketing that can get them tons of tax payers' money.
Was it just me or was there a hiccup at about 23:50?
Was it just me or was there a hiccup at about 23:50?
Not for me?
Athough Youtube did through up an error.
Might still be processing or something.
Assuming perfect conversion efficiency and assuming the use of the best commercial LEDs available at the moment for general lighting (Cree XM-L, 151lm/W raw), that's 23.8kW of power in full daylight.
Now, the same calculation as for your insolation applies for the drive strength of those LEDs. You're absolutely not going to run those at full strength all day, that is just an unreasonable assumption to make.
You can simply use the same calculations you used for solar insolation to get the effective run time. Running them all day at variable strength is, like insolation, going to be equal to running them at full strength for 7 hours. And over the total year, you can use the same x0.6 multiplier to account for seasonal changes in daylight brightness.
I also noticed what seems like some editing glitches starting around ~22 minutes mark.
Was it just me or was there a hiccup at about 23:50?
Not for me?
Athough Youtube did through up an error.
Might still be processing or something.
Nope, at around 23:00 you started a sentence and probably didn't like how it came out and decided to start again and you forgot to cut out that part when editing. Then you cut again at around 23:50.
And there's the "Sample text" black screen instead of the usual "footer" video with the eevblog text and lightning sparks and noise.
Video works, just looks rushed to upload.
Video will be back up after I fix the edit and re-upload tomorrow morning, maybe by 10am.
Yes, I really rushed this one. A rare one where SWMBO let me stay back to finish and upload it.
FAIL.
Nice try guys, but no engineer would fall for that.
So pretty close to my estimated 30kW.
These numbers have to be hand-wavey, because real data doesn't exist for the very small view angles and thick glass we are talking about here.
It needs serious empirical measurement.
I get what you are saying, but I'm not convinced your numbers are any better, or that you are comparing apples with apples here.
Where did your nighttime consumption go?
Video will be back up after I fix the edit and re-upload tomorrow morning, maybe by 10am.
Yes, I really rushed this one. A rare one where SWMBO let me stay back to finish and upload it.
FAIL.
We have two types of surfaces:
1) a semi-smooth walking surface that is capable of stopping a car going 40-mph on a wet surface in the required distance
2) The one you see in the video with the raised hexagons was designed for highway use and can stop a car going 80-mph on a wet surface.
We talked with the civil engineers who conducted the traction testing and they've assured us that the testing covers trucks, cars, motorcycles, and bicycles. So if you don't slip on asphalt or concrete, then you won't slip on our glass.
How long will these Solar Road Panels last?
We're designing our panels to last a minimum of 20 years. Solar cells are the limiting factor: they can continue to work up to 30 years but they're at the end of their life cycle by then.
BTW, their website has a ridiculous 'Clearing the Freakin' Air' page where they try to "bust" some myths surrounding their product -- without including a SINGLE piece of data ANYWHERE on the page.
Any rough numbers for the price of the glass (per square meter) they would need?
I'm not declaring my numbers holy, just saying that the method is a bit more credible/backed up by a reasonable method to get there than just saying that one LED uses 0.5W.
Same way that the nighttime sun went. Away. You run the LEDs proportional to the sunlight. At night, typical lights only need to produce in the order of tens of lux to get reasonable visibility. Existing road markings do nothing other than just reflect that light, whereas the asphalt absorbs it, creating a contrast. With the LEDs, you do the same. I did nothing other than apply the insolation formula to the LED lights.
If you're just trying to get your opinion out there you shouldn't do these messy calculations.
From their FAQ http://www.solarroadways.com/faq.shtml#faqBikes (http://www.solarroadways.com/faq.shtml#faqBikes)QuoteWhat about motorcycles and bicycles? Won't they slip on the glass surface? What about strollers, skates, skateboards, wheelchairs, etc.?
We have two types of surfaces:
1) a semi-smooth walking surface that is capable of stopping a car going 40-mph on a wet surface in the required distance
2) The one you see in the video with the raised hexagons was designed for highway use and can stop a car going 80-mph on a wet surface.
Here in Minnesota U.S. where we have snow & ice , we use to have studs in our tires .
I think get a bag of them and install on my tires when these show up .
I like the warmth between ice ages ;)
Hmm. I was enthusiastic with this project first, thinking it was great that people where thinking environmentally and such. I’m not an engineer, but I felt alright with the concept, trusting what I do not know with the ones who supposedly do!
Well, It seems my judgement failed me this time. Look at this: www.eevblog.com (http://www.eevblog.com)
How can this be dis-proven?
How long will these Solar Road Panels last?
We're designing our panels to last a minimum of 20 years. Solar cells are the limiting factor: they can continue to work up to 30 years but they're at the end of their life cycle by then.
Years ago, when we were working on our very first prototype, we estimated that if we could make our 12' x 12' panels for under $10K, then we could break even with asphalt. That was mere speculation and had no relevance to the cost of even our first prototype, let alone our second.
It was promptly deleted :P
The biggest problem, apart from the money, would simply be wear, glass isn't that durable. Friction isn't much of problem as it mainly the physical key of the aggregates that provides the grip, having a textured surface should be able to keep that in check. But then again the road noise could be hellish.
Also how are these panels anchored, the big test would be a heavily loaded truck doing an emergency stop.
But fundamentally I really want to see a snowplow go over them, would they just shatter, or would the plow catch the edge and create an expensive cascade of glass.
It was promptly deleted :P
http://solarroadways.com/faq.shtml (http://solarroadways.com/faq.shtml)But fundamentally I really want to see a snowplow go over them, would they just shatter, or would the plow catch the edge and create an expensive cascade of glass.and the snowplow is a very good point :-+
Here's the worst case scenario: if all else fails, we can replace snow plows with street sweepers where needed (vehicles with large rotating brushes). They're used here in Idaho in the spring to clear the roads of the sand that was used for traction during the winter months.One could do whole series of videos just from their stupid write offs on how to fix problems.
btw the old video is still listed on twitter. if people want to find it they can find it on their youtube history anyways?
another point is the SALT - it's common to use road salt to decrease the freezing point of the water and therefore avoid formation of ice on the roads.. how long will those tiles last in such a extremely salty environment during winters ? we all know what is salty water doing with electronics and cables ;)
great video Dave,
personally i think they just got carried away with the idea
i wonder though if it could work if it was just used for off-road use, like driveways and parking lots it would simplify things greatly.
This project feels a lot like Moller skycar - awesome but impractical, and not even well engineered for what is there.
Come to think about it, a lot of their problems would fly away, no pun intended, if they were to unite forces with Moller International.
Assuming flying cars, there will be no problems with:
-Surface traction
-Thick glass for carrying weight
-Shading by cars
-LED marker consumption
-Heater consumption
-Inability to tilt the road to follow the sun
-Flammable liquids spilled from wrecks
-Salt for de-icing
-etc
Hmmmm.
This project feels a lot like Moller skycar - awesome but impractical, and not even well engineered for what is there.To hell with cars, I want portals!
Come to think about it, a lot of their problems would fly away, no pun intended, if they were to unite forces with Moller International.
Assuming flying cars, there will be no problems with:
-Surface traction
-Thick glass for carrying weight
-Shading by cars
-LED marker consumption
-Heater consumption
-Inability to tilt the road to follow the sun
-Flammable liquids spilled from wrecks
-Salt for de-icing
-etc
Hmmmm.
can't you angle the LEDs towards oncoming traffic to increase their efficiency?
Dave's magic marker toss at the very end of the video is a thing of beauty.
He's a consummate professional.
Dave's magic marker toss at the very end of the video is a thing of beauty.
He's a consummate professional.
If only the marker stayed on Dave's head at the end - that would've been classic!
can't you angle the LEDs towards oncoming traffic to increase their efficiency?
Sure just install servo motors on them, for every engineering problem there is a solution. :-+
actually you could make small tetrahedron features in the PCB and place 3 LEDs - one to each face of the tetrahedron to cover a complete half-sphere :DHmm what about one of those 3d displays. 3D display means the picture pops up from the flat surface. 3D display would have better resolution than RGB leds, so we could as a result even better giant display at our disposal! THERE IS NO LIMIT TO HUMAN INGENUITY! :-+
but i would like to see the manufacturer's face when you ask him make those small tetrahedron features on the PCB and to do 3D pick-and-place of the LEDs :-DD :-DD :-DD
Science. Or lack of science in schools. That's what we are really talking about here. Aren't we? That the average politician, average consumer, has no experience of science, or engineering.
another point is the SALT - it's common to use road salt to decrease the freezing point of the water and therefore avoid formation of ice on the roads.. how long will those tiles last in such a extremely salty environment during winters ? we all know what is salty water doing with electronics and cables ;)That at least shouldn't be an insurmountable problem. Traffic lights already have electronics to control them, and cables and inductive loops running under the street.
and regarding the wipes instead of plows.... have they ever tried to wipe a compressed snow ? or will they wipe the roads constantly 24/7 to avoid compression of the snow by the vehicles ?
another point is the SALT - it's common to use road salt to decrease the freezing point of the water and therefore avoid formation of ice on the roads.. how long will those tiles last in such a extremely salty environment during winters ? we all know what is salty water doing with electronics and cables ;)That at least shouldn't be an insurmountable problem. Traffic lights already have electronics to control them, and cables and inductive loops running under the street.
Does he keep the $2M when nothing comes of this?Why of course they will keep it. As long as there is reasonable proof they are using it to do what it was meant to do. They don't have to succeed! Why would project doomed to fail succeed?
This is what I find most depressing about the project. It's not that it's impractical and doomed to fail, it's that taxpayers' real, hard-earned cash, which could have been used to make the world a better place in some way, was allowed to be spent on it.
That's a colossal red flag IMHO. It absolutely screams out that nobody in government, who has the authority to decide where and how money is spent, has enough of a clue to spot BS even when it's so obvious.
It should be a warning to us all. The people whom we entrust with our money are not the best and brightest, they're obviously clueless.
30 year hermetic glass road tiles. Right.With active power connections to the outside world.
Well, they deleted my comment in the discussion to their channel. And somehow the number of comments is getting lower rather than higher. I'm sure it's all legit and they have nothing to hide and can back everything up.
Have we talked about condensation inside these? Or will they be filled with nitrogen?
30 year hermetic glass road tiles. Right.
This is what I find most depressing about the project. It's not that it's impractical and doomed to fail, it's that taxpayers' real, hard-earned cash, which could have been used to make the world a better place in some way, was allowed to be spent on it.
That's a colossal red flag IMHO. It absolutely screams out that nobody in government, who has the authority to decide where and how money is spent, has enough of a clue to spot BS even when it's so obvious.
It should be a warning to us all. The people whom we entrust with our money are not the best and brightest, they're obviously clueless.
That's what it seems like, yes. They say that the Federal Highway Administration is overseeing their work (engineers and all), giving them funding, etc
Very strange...
Once they get this project rolling on it's own. They should tackle world hunger. Imagine fields that automatically detect what plants are growing on them and nurture and water the plants automatically.
Once they get this project rolling on it's own. They should tackle world hunger. Imagine fields that automatically detect what plants are growing on them and nurture and water the plants automatically.
That would require too much infrastructure.
What we need are smart clouds.
Fund meeeeeeeeeeeee
This is what I find most depressing about the project. It's not that it's impractical and doomed to fail, it's that taxpayers' real, hard-earned cash, which could have been used to make the world a better place in some way, was allowed to be spent on it.
That's a colossal red flag IMHO. It absolutely screams out that nobody in government, who has the authority to decide where and how money is spent, has enough of a clue to spot BS even when it's so obvious.
It should be a warning to us all. The people whom we entrust with our money are not the best and brightest, they're obviously clueless.
That's what it seems like, yes. They say that the Federal Highway Administration is overseeing their work (engineers and all), giving them funding, etc
Very strange...
Did you consider that the solar roadway guys might just bend the truth "slightly" when they make such statements?
So, on which one of those would it be most sensible to spend $2M to find a solution/improvement?Except they are not trying to find solution/improvement... They already have it! :-DD
(and that is why "solar roadways" is ridiculous........ ;-)
How can your donation help?
We asked for $1 million to hire an initial team of engineers to help us make a few needed tweaks in our product and streamline our process so that we could go from prototype to production. Thanks to your generous donations, we've met and exceeded our goal - thank you so much!
We've posted on our Facebook fan site asking for resumes:
"Our immediate need is for the following: Mechanical Engineer, Civil Engineer, Structural Engineer, Manufacturing Engineer (Production Specialist), Materials Engineer, and Environmental Engineer. Experience in solar, renewable energy or hydrology a bonus. We also need an experienced CFO."
We plan to begin hiring in June and we're looking for office space to rent in Sandpoint, Idaho. Our initial goal was for a bare bones staff, the minimal amount of design engineers that we estimated would help us make it to production. The additional funds that are being contributed now will allow us hire even more people, which will allow us to move even faster. Also there will be a need for parts, equipment and supplies.
Some of the additional positions on our wish list that that we also may be able to hire (depending on our final total) include: Software Engineers, IT Professionals, Cyber Security experts, etc.
We feel truly blessed and overwhelmed with the outpouring of support from around the world. The time for Solar Roadways has come, and you each now have a part in it - thank you so very much!
Dave is convienced solar roadways are BULLSHIT (which they might be) but he also believes
Appolo Program did put a man on the Moon...
yes. smell that too!
Dave is convienced solar roadways are BULLSHIT (which they might be) but he also believesI dunno about bullshit, but I certainly smell a troll. Even stinkier.
Appolo Program did put a man on the Moon...
yes. smell that too!
can't you angle the LEDs towards oncoming traffic to increase their efficiency?
Dave is convienced solar roadways are BULLSHIT (which they might be) but he also believes
Appolo Program did put a man on the Moon...
yes. smell that too!
i know i'll be warned off by the moderators/admins for this... but i couldn't help myself...
Dear Mr. "elektron" could you please be so kind and f**k yourself ? Thank you in advance !
Your sincerely,
Rob77.
Dave is convienced solar roadways are BULLSHIT (which they might be) but he also believes
Appolo Program did put a man on the Moon...
yes. smell that too!
i know i'll be warned off by the moderators/admins for this... but i couldn't help myself...
Dear Mr. "elektron" could you please be so kind and f**k yourself ? Thank you in advance !
Your sincerely,
Rob77.
dude. i couldn't care less about your reactions, or warnings to admins. so far, you (and others)
are the only ones swearing.
Dave is convienced solar roadways are BULLSHIT (which they might be) but he also believes
Appolo Program did put a man on the Moon...
quote from video: "believing in something is not enough to make it work" ...
I am 100% unconvinced by their claims about surface traction. As a motorcyclist there is no way I would ever ride on a glass road. Even white line paint and man-hole covers are dangerously slippy.
Aside from large oil/diesel spills, little oil drips get absorbed into the tarmac and don't become a problem. On glass they would just build up into an oily film over the whole thing. Lethal.
Dave is convienced solar roadways are BULLSHIT (which they might be) but he also believes
Appolo Program did put a man on the Moon...
Typical green dreaming project.
First of all. It is not me to prove they ...negative feedback blabla... feasable or not.
... A truck blowing a tire will break at least 200 meters worth of panels, trying to stop while driving on its rim...
Have they explained why they don't just mount these on houses or (better still) public buildings and factories? No requirements for lighting, or ultra high durability encapsulation, minimal degradation, and no need to remove them for access to utilities.Are you trying to say mount them like normal solar panels that actually work ok for that purpose?
and wife is therapist or something? Maybe she is more like a brain engineer? :-DD Using peoples own brains against them, this equivalent of bully hitting your face with your own hand.
Does he keep the $2M when nothing comes of this?
BUT....All the technical details aside....I think Dave did a great job at the math. BUT - to the consumer, he/she will put that aside and just call you a "Hater"
Our technology works. Now it's time to gear up for manufacturing.
We asked for $1 million to hire an initial team of engineers to help us make a few needed tweaks in our product and streamline our process so that we could go from prototype to production.:palm:
It would also be interesting to check if her credentials are real, i.e. if she really has that license, and which university or professional organization was involved. Actually, the same for him. Where on earth did he get his engineering degree from?
Non-denominational Bible-believing servant of the Lord Jesus ChristWell, that all explains the delusion part and lack of ability to accept and reason facts and evidence.
The Solar Roadways clan actually live just up the road from me. I saw this happy horse manure back 2010 when they were pitching this scheme to the local IEEE group. It's one of the reasons I've seen fit to not renew membership in IEEE. They really lost credibility with me on this one.
Dave made a few mistakes here. It's still bullshit, but not quite as bad as he said.
The heating would be grid powered. Presumably it would only be used in areas where it was really important.
The LEDs could easily be angled like cats eyes already are. Presumably fixed road markings would be painted on, and standard cat's eyes used. The LEDs would be for special cases.
Heating the roads is probably one of the stupidest idea of this entire campaign, and that's saying something, because this campaign has so many doozies to choose from.
Road heating is actually done - under special conditions, in very few areas.
For example, the have an abundance of geothermal energy in Iceland --> road heating.
You could add them if they were all referenced to the 150W/m² (and not input versus output of each loss), but I don't think it was meant that way.
Well, at least it's not Radioactive Freaking Roadways, like they proposed in the 50s - mixing some radium into the pavement to keep it continuously hot.
Well, that all explains the delusion part and lack of ability to accept and reason facts and evidence.
I dont see how these glass tiles would stand up to real traffic use, The tractor show on them could have 20 tons and not broken a tile as Tyre pressure is relatively low but the impact loading of a 40 ton truck wheel bouncing up and down is something else and there will also be other impact loads such as that shovel show in the photo dropping, they will just break up in use no need to worry about electrical loses etc they will never get past highways surface testing.
The Solar Roadways clan actually live just up the road from me. I saw this happy horse manure back 2010 when they were pitching this scheme to the local IEEE group. It's one of the reasons I've seen fit to not renew membership in IEEE. They really lost credibility with me on this one.
So what was the reaction from the IEEE members pitched at?
I wish I knew. It looked so implausible that I didn't even bother to go. This area is really fertile ground for these "faith-based" enterprises. Solar Roadways is but one of them.
To me, it really shows the need for 100-level chemistry and physics. When I was in college, one of my profs went on the local news to explain why a local inventor's plan of putting car crash barriers on the front of train locomotives would not prevent RR crossing deaths.
We've got bad science-based business by the bushel up here. :)
can't you angle the LEDs towards oncoming traffic to increase their efficiency?
Yup, they can be angled. Lights embedded in " roadways" are already common. Go to any major jet airport at night, and you'll see embedded guide lights in taxiways. And they are angled. For two-way traffic, they have to be in sets that face opposite directions.
Dave is right though. Project as a whole stinks.
Mike in California
Making recessed structures in the tiles, as in those markers, would make this kind of thing possible, but the little pits in the surface would likely get full of dirt.
33$/m^2/year so they are actually claiming maximum of 30 years for these, that comes to around 990$/m^2/lifetime how much solar energy they have produced. If they are going to get roads that pay for itself during the lifetime.... :palm:
real quotes from their site:Quote from: http://solarroadways.com/faq.shtml#faqLongetivityHow long will these Solar Road Panels last?
We're designing our panels to last a minimum of 20 years. Solar cells are the limiting factor: they can continue to work up to 30 years but they're at the end of their life cycle by then.Quote from: http://solarroadways.com/faq.shtml#faq60trillionYears ago, when we were working on our very first prototype, we estimated that if we could make our 12' x 12' panels for under $10K, then we could break even with asphalt. That was mere speculation and had no relevance to the cost of even our first prototype, let alone our second.
They should make 1 m^2 panels that lasts 300 years. Would almost break even on that $10K price point?
Please excuse me, If my comment is completely wrong, I did not read the entire discussion, because I got disgusted by some of the really bizzare and negative comments about the project. Once again, I am not saying they are perfect, I just like they actually do something.
Does youtube have a views/day sort function?
This one seems to be getting rather popular.
I wish I knew. It looked so implausible that I didn't even bother to go. This area is really fertile ground for these "faith-based" enterprises. Solar Roadways is but one of them.
To me, it really shows the need for 100-level chemistry and physics. When I was in college, one of my profs went on the local news to explain why a local inventor's plan of putting car crash barriers on the front of train locomotives would not prevent RR crossing deaths.
We've got bad science-based business by the bushel up here. :)
Sounds like a lot of idiot money flowing free there. Do you have to believe in Jesus FRICKIN' Christ to be part of this club?
I wish I knew. It looked so implausible that I didn't even bother to go. This area is really fertile ground for these "faith-based" enterprises. Solar Roadways is but one of them.
To me, it really shows the need for 100-level chemistry and physics. When I was in college, one of my profs went on the local news to explain why a local inventor's plan of putting car crash barriers on the front of train locomotives would not prevent RR crossing deaths.
We've got bad science-based business by the bushel up here. :)
Sounds like a lot of idiot money flowing free there. Do you have to believe in Jesus FRICKIN' Christ to be part of this club?
No. You have to stand on the sidewalk with a bullhorn shouting that everyone is going to hell. Just watched a little girl, maybe ten years old doing this last night outside the stadium during a football game. It happens every day here.
And yes, there is a ton of money to be had here if one drops the J-bomb frequently enough.
... sounds like the dumbest idea ever.Which brings into sharp focus the "crap filled" video endorsement by Senator Crapo.
It seems that some moron is flagging hundreds of comments on this video as SPAM, but it seems only ones that are against solar roadways.If one (or just a few) people set to targeting a video's comments as SPAM, what of it? Do the comments get automatically removed?
Seems like we have a rabid fanboy
EEVblog1 hour ago (edited)Dave has to manually clear it. Maybe they are doing this to make Dave's video less popular? Since youtube rates videos how many comments they get in the beginning and views and all that stuff. Even one way to attack someone might satisfy them.
IMPORTANT NOTE: I seems apparent that some moron is flagging a huge proportion of comments going against the solar roadway as SPAM. Therefore, don't fret if your comment doesn't show up, I'll unmark it as spam as soon as possible.?
pic.twitter.com/HJUHRwrsLU (http://pic.twitter.com/HJUHRwrsLU)
@MythBusters
Why didn't anyone think of this before? Solar-powered roadways that light themselves ? http://dsc.tv/x0UIW (http://dsc.tv/x0UIW) pic.twitter.com/HJUHRwrsLU (http://pic.twitter.com/HJUHRwrsLU)
:palm: :palm:
Dave please, another video quickly, otherwise this will be written off in the history books (like Thunderf00t said) saying "no one had a clue because they were so stupid".
If one (or just a few) people set to targeting a video's comments as SPAM, what of it? Do the comments get automatically removed?
There is an old saying: A fool and his money are soon parted. The world is full of fools.
I learnt years ago never invest in something you know nothing about. The investors in these road tiles will lose their money. A masters degree or a PhD does disqualify you from being a fundamental idiot.
There is a story about a roofing tiler who invented a revolutionary engine - the split cycle engine. Sir Jack Brabham even endorsed it. To cut a long story short, it went nowhere and investors lost virtually everything. The roofing tiler walked off with many millions of dollars in his pocket.
Peter Brock made a fool of himself with his "Energy Polarizer"containing crystals and magnets in an epoxy resin that, it was claimed, improved the performance and handling of vehicles through "aligning the molecules". A load of :bullshit:.
The religious Y2K spruikers gave the computing industry a bad name. Conmen who had few abilities other than spreading fear over Y2K and making money out of it.
Dave's video reminds us that if it is too good to be true, it probably is. And do your homework always.
Not to want to divert this thread off topic but the Y2K issue may have been inflated by mass media but there still were many systems that would have produced errors had there not been a MASSIVE remedial effort to update them. A great deal of money time and effort went into replacing and testing to ensure it was all a complete fizzer on the day.
My intent is not to revisit Y2K since it is historic now, rather that if you are going to argue against others beliefs in something then you ought to not include your own biases as well. Whether or not Y2K spruikers and conmen did or did not give the IT industry a bad name and rake in money is an opinion as much based on your particular beliefs.
Someone mentioned that because Dave had negative views that people on the forum who are also negative are just following his lead... and people would have been positive if Dave was positive.
I think we need to give more credit to Dave's viewers and also the healthy and open discussions we have here.
Currently, the full size hexagons are 36-watt solar panels, with 69-percent surface coverage by solar cells. This will become 52-watts when we cover the whole surface when we go into production. When we add piezoelectric, they'll be capable of producing even more power. Also, as the efficiency of solar cells increase, more power will be converted.
If he seriously think this then he should get back the money for his masters EE degree. :palm:
Any rough numbers for the price of the glass (per square meter) they would need?
I've done some basic research on this, and it seems that $10/sqm is probably in the ballpark for suitable 16mm stuff in volume.
But they need the bumps and the roughening etc.
@MythBustersMyth Busters jumped the shark a long time ago. These days they are just a TV show for adolescent youth who like to watch big explosions, big car crashes and excessive use of firearms.
Why didn't anyone think of this before? Solar-powered roadways that light themselves ?
Railways would benefit the most from a solar roof,Since you can not properly guard long railroad tracks things will be stolen and vandalized in no time.
Dave has to manually clear it. Maybe they are doing this to make Dave's video less popular? Since youtube rates videos how many comments they get in the beginning and views and all that stuff. Even one way to attack someone might satisfy them.
Another interesting scenario will be hacking into the LED lighting network inside the tiles and making it into a giant LED display.
Since you can not properly guard long railroad tracks things will be stolen and vandalized in no time.
Which, if I think about it, will also happen to scammer's solar roadways.
Science. Or lack of science in schools. That's what we are really talking about here. Aren't we? That the average politician, average consumer, has no experience of science, or engineering.
This is what I find most depressing about the project. It's not that it's impractical and doomed to fail, it's that taxpayers' real, hard-earned cash, which could have been used to make the world a better place in some way, was allowed to be spent on it.
That's a colossal red flag IMHO. It absolutely screams out that nobody in government, who has the authority to decide where and how money is spent, has enough of a clue to spot BS even when it's so obvious.
It should be a warning to us all. The people whom we entrust with our money are not the best and brightest, they're obviously clueless.
It does not seem to be working - search YouTube for "solar roadways" and Dave's video comes out at number 3 :-+
A representative cross section of the society is elected (yeah right!) to run things according to how people want.
I wish it were true.
** led traffic lights ARE also directional. and have a life expectancy of "at least" 5 years.
Was watching a documentary on the replacement World Trade centre tower, and the original plan call for prismatic glass for the bottom 3 floors. Which was made by machining bomb proof glass with custom made machines, at great cost despite the work being done in china. It was a total failure as the glass surface broke up into thousands of glass splinters when subjected the basic impact tests. So the idea of making special glass to better trap the light is a non starter too.Yeah, mythbusters has done minimum of two episodes about bullet proof glass. It all started when Jamie said that this blast shield is bulletproof. What he meant that it need to be laminated with that plastic and tempered glass in several layers. It's only bulletproof/blast resistant once. If you break bulletproof/blast resistant glass you will have broken glass.
So having patterns in the glass to prove better traction is actually going to weaken the glass to boot.
Ok, ok. Yea. You guys LOVE to argue the tech specs of anything...
BUT....All the technical details aside....I think Dave did a great job at the math. BUT - to the consumer, he/she will put that aside and just call you a "Hater" - it was totally unconvincing to them - so a great job for nerds! But to the the backers - that video will fly right over their head. Hater's gonna hate!
I hope you all take a moment and thing about what the real issue is.....Let's step back and look at the bigger picture.
Science. Or lack of science in schools. That's what we are really talking about here. Aren't we? That the average politician, average consumer, has no experience of science, or engineering. No clue how to do basic unit conversions (I didn't see anything in Dave's math that wasn't a factor, or a unit conversion - correct me if I'm wrong - basic stuff)
It's easy for science/engineering minded people like us to look all high and mighty over our friends/co-workers on a topic like this. (some of you seem to revel in the fact you know more than your non-science friends) Well, shame on you I say! Stop patting yourself on the back, and start talking about the need for science in the classroom. You know, in a non-I-m-smarter-than-you kind of way.
/end rant.
** led traffic lights ARE also directional. and have a life expectancy of "at least" 5 years.
You mean like this one?
A parody of thunderf00t's rebuttal.
A parody of thunderf00t's rebuttal.
the problem here is not the "impossible in the future"... the problem is their claim to make with today's technology ! and the fact they're ignoring/deleting all the relevant questions.
if someone asks for grant to do some "weird looking" research which will possibly result in some new technology in the future - that's just ok.. (if there are excess funds to support that kind of research).
but if someone claims that he developed something and he needs funding for production - and actually his "invention" can't work with current technology.. then that's a big problem !
apparently the author of the video overseen the facts around the "solar roadways" and their "inventors".
Thing is, "possible with future tech" simply doesn't matter in this case, as even if some material becomes available that makes these solar roadway panels technologically feasible, they still won't be economically viable!
This is because fundamental physics isn't going to change "in the future" and it will still be cheaper, and provide a large return on your investment, to just put normal solar panels on roofs / in fields & deserts etc!
For example, public supersonic air transport was made technologically possible in the mid 1970's (that's 40 years ago), and since then, aircraft technology has taken a quantum leap forwards, and yet, where are all the supersonic airliners today? yup, there aren't any. This is nothing to do with the absence or presence of technology,a and everything to do with practical economics!
IN 2050, putting solar panels under roads will still be a really silly idea, when for the same financial outlay, you could put probably 10x as many panels in a field next to the road, and those panels would probably return something like 3x as much energy (because they can be heliostatic and not have to be protected from vehicle traffic). That means you get 30x as much energy back for your cash (10x more panels, each being 3x more efficient), and chances are, they would be significantly cheaper to maintain etc (further improving your ROI)
So, if i said today, give me $100, and i'll give you $30, you would say. er, "no thanks" and if i ask the same question in 2050 (when we will all have flying cars, and robots and stuff?. Well, you would still answer "no thanks"!
Fundamentally, this is why pure engineering in itself is no indicator of the viability of any given project. (Betamax VCR anyone?)
A parody of thunderf00t's rebuttal.
Seems to me it's root cause is "It's to big to be a lie" kind of thing. People keep abstracting in all directions because of this.
But, I have a question. They say tempered glass is not harder than normal glass, but I've read that tempered glass is hardness of 7 - that's very hard. BUT if the glass they're supposed to be using is 5.5, then... Anyway, is there such glass (7), and would it make things better in regards to glass DUST ?
That and the solar panel's themselves seems to me like the most serious issues.
This is because fundamental physics isn't going to change "in the future" and it will still be cheaper, and provide a large return on your investment, to just put normal solar panels on roofs / in fields & deserts etc!
A parody of thunderf00t's rebuttal.
Wow, and that guys is supposed to be running a "skeptical science" channel :palm:
They're looking to hire every kind of engineer except electronic / electrical :palm:
They're looking to hire every kind of engineer except electronic / electrical :palm:
##Triples: Three 28.5 ft (8.7 m) trailers; maximum weight up to 129,000 lb (59,000 kg).
##Turnpike Doubles: Two 48 ft (14.6 m) trailers; maximum weight up to 147,000 lb (67,000 kg)
##Rocky Mountain Doubles: One 40-to-53 ft (12.2-to-16.2 m) trailer (though usually no more than 48 ft/14.6 m) and one 28.5 ft (8.7 m) trailer (known as a "pup"); maximum weight up to 129,000 lb (59,000 kg)
##In Canada, a Turnpike Double is two 53 ft (16.2 m) trailers, and a Rocky Mountain Double is a 50 ft (15.2 m) trailer with a 24 ft (7.3 m) "pup".
Future LCV's under consideration and study for the U.S. MAP-21 transportation bill are container doubles. These combinations are under study for potential recommendation in November 2014:
##40 ft (12 m) trailer Turnpike Doubles, 148,000 lb (67,000 kg) GVWR
##40/20-ft (12/6 m) trailer Rocky Mountain Doubles, 134,000 lb (61,000 kg) GVWR
##Double 20 ft (6.1 m) trailer Doubles, 120,000 lb (54,000 kg) GVWR
Regulations on LCVs vary widely from one state or province to another. None allows more than three trailers without a special permit. Reasons for limiting the legal trailer configurations include both safety concerns and the impracticality of designing and constructing roads that can accommodate the larger wheelbase of these vehicles and the larger minimum turning radii associated with them.
Most states restrict operation of larger tandem trailer setups such as triple units, "turnpike doubles" and "Rocky-Mountain doubles". In general, these configurations are restricted to turnpikes. Except for these units, tandem setups are not restricted to certain roads any more than a single setup. They are also not restricted by weather conditions or "difficulty of operation". The Canadian province of Ontario, however, does have weather-related operating restrictions for larger tandem trailer setups.
In the United States, 80,000 lb (36,000 kg) is the maximum allowable legal gross vehicle weight without a permit.
The axle-weight breakdown is:[2]
##20,000 lb (9,072 kg) maximum on a single axle
##34,000 lb (15,422 kg) maximum on the tandem axles
i'm very sorry for the citizens of US if their government will keep supporting those "solar" roadways.
i'm very sorry for the citizens of US if their government will keep supporting those "solar" roadways.
Gov't can always hike the taxes so that 1kWH will cost like say $2. ;)
All insanely expensive ideas will start to look different.
Then you get trucks like this:
(http://i.imgur.com/plKTTD9.jpg)
This weighs 45 Tons without any load on it and it can haul up to 75 Tons total. It probably isn't road legal but I suppose on occasion it has to cross the road or at least be towed somewhere.
I think I recall that this particular truck frame can be special ordered to support 250 Tons.
Hey! They're hiring! http://www.solarroadways.com/jobs.shtml (http://www.solarroadways.com/jobs.shtml)From that page we can learn where they stole that idea from!
This pic was taken from our ski resort: Schweitzer Mountain Resort.On the wiki page about Schweitzer Mountain http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schweitzer_Mountain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schweitzer_Mountain)
Also in 2007, Schweitzer Mountain Land & Timber Company, the real estate arm of Schweitzer Mountain Resort, released 35 new ski-in/ski-out lots, approved for 1-4 units per lot, for sale in the Trapper's Creek-1 subdivision. By winter of 2007-08, heated roads, ... were installed.(emphasis added).
A parody of thunderf00t's rebuttal.
"Horseless FREAKING Carriages," a VERY expensive joke? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvYv62X-DD0#ws)
btw... one serious question... how is the glass tile supported ? is all pressure going to the 4 bolts ? or is the glass pressing against the solar panels and the PCBs beneath ? this might be an extremely serious issue.It's implied from the video showing the panels and installation concrete base that the 4 bolts are the only support.
btw... one serious question... how is the glass tile supported ? is all pressure going to the 4 bolts ? or is the glass pressing against the solar panels and the PCBs beneath ? this might be an extremely serious issue.It's implied from the video showing the panels and installation concrete base that the 4 bolts are the only support.
Not entirely clear though, as although the the whole of their website is filled substantial amounts of text, it contains no real information at all.
Most of it is feeble excuses as to why they don't have any testing data or haven't done any of the things any reasonable person would have already done.
Their FAQ page is particularly revealing of their whole attitude - mostly political style non-answers, and the few bits of information in there show a total lack of understanding.
They claim that 'Most roads with high speed vehicles keep themselves pretty clean' - a quick glance at any road anywhere proves otherwise.
Road damage and repairs - 'The panel could be swapped out and reprogrammed in a few minutes' - not true, as a substantial part of road repairs is closing off the lane(s) so that it is safe to do the repairs, something which will still have to be done even if the panel replacement did take only 5 minutes.
There is a section about lightning not striking the ground or their glass panels because 'glass is an insulator', black marks from tyres is answered by scuffing a shoe on one of the panels once, and for energy storage, flywheels were mentioned. Flywheels.
I read a whole book once in which flywheels were used as viable energy sources for motorcycles and other vehicles. However it was a sci-fi novel and therefore as far away from reality as you can get.
From that page we can learn where they stole that idea from!hmm...
Another thought, studded snow tires. I don't think the glass would hold up.
Another thought, studded snow tires. I don't think the glass would hold up.
who would need studded snow tires when we live in a Utopian world with magical snow melting solar roads??
Although Dave criticised the Solar roads on the basis of the actual solar panel efficiency, as you would expect an EE to do. I think it is becoming increasingly evident that the concept is flawed on so many levels that the efficiency is actually one of the lesser ones.
I'm not sure if others have pointed this out but another reason why it is even worse than your analysis is the severely detrimental effects of temperature on PV output. Without airflow behind a panel, output will quickly decline as it heats up.
If they only put the panels on bends that face into the sun and inclined them NASCAR style, would that help?
If they only put the panels on bends that face into the sun and inclined them NASCAR style, would that help?
Sure it would help, but not even close to being enough to make it financially viable.
Guys,
I wanted to read all the previous post before saying anything but I see that swearing and speculating about who's gonna steal the money is done more often than commenting the actual issue.
All I wanted to say is that I find it rather disappointing to see engineers with zero faith and arguing endlessly against something. Especially if it's an unfair argument. This is the quality of an engineer who can only do what's been done before. Where will you hide when it will be done in 10-15 years time? Are you the ones who make up problems or the ones who teach the rest how to do stuff? Have faith my friends, it there's a problem then solve it, figure shit out.
J
Guys,
I wanted to read all the previous post before saying anything but I see that swearing and speculating about who's gonna steal the money is done more often than commenting the actual issue.
All I wanted to say is that I find it rather disappointing to see engineers with zero faith and arguing endlessly against something. Especially if it's an unfair argument. This is the quality of an engineer who can only do what's been done before. Where will you hide when it will be done in 10-15 years time? Are you the ones who make up problems or the ones who teach the rest how to do stuff? Have faith my friends, it there's a problem then solve it, figure shit out.
J
Have faith my friends, it there's a problem then solve it, figure shit out.
Dave, looks like your video reached it's peak. Care to share the stats on it?
I think you were a bit too late, a few weeks earlier, and you're video may have gotten much more views. No?
Have faith my friends, it there's a problem then solve it, figure shit out.under the most horrible unoptimised conditions possible
Guys,
All I wanted to say is that I find it rather disappointing to see engineers with zero faith and arguing endlessly against something. Especially if it's an unfair argument. This is the quality of an engineer who can only do what's been done before.
I wanted to read all the previous post before saying anything but I see that swearing and speculating about who's gonna steal the money is done more often than commenting the actual issue.Ignoring the technical issues. Please tell us why solar roadways are a good thing comparing to the alternatives.
All I wanted to say is that I find it rather disappointing to see engineers with zero faith and arguing endlessly against something. Especially if it's an unfair argument. This is the quality of an engineer who can only do what's been done before. Where will you hide when it will be done in 10-15 years time? Are you the ones who make up problems or the ones who teach the rest how to do stuff? Have faith my friends, it there's a problem then solve it, figure shit out.
I wanted to read all the previous post before saying anything but I see that swearing and speculating about who's gonna steal the money is done more often than commenting the actual issue.Well, there are limitations as to how far faith can take you against facts. Well, there should be anyway, otherwise you get religion.
All I wanted to say is that I find it rather disappointing to see engineers with zero faith and arguing endlessly against something. Especially if it's an unfair argument. This is the quality of an engineer who can only do what's been done before. Where will you hide when it will be done in 10-15 years time? Are you the ones who make up problems or the ones who teach the rest how to do stuff? Have faith my friends, it there's a problem then solve it, figure shit out.
What I'm saying it that I consider it primitive to make up stuff as part of an argument against something just because you don't like the idea or you THINK it's not doable. Even worse to blow somebody else's trumpet without doing your OWN calculations and experiments. This thing didn't get a fair trial.Well, they spent 800k USD without sufficiently answering lots of questions, addressing lots of issues raised, they delete comments on their youtube channel asking for clarification, reaction or criticism, leaving only praise - which is not peer review, the basis for science. Which is fishy at the best of times.
I think you calculated the return as $33/m2/year. in your calculations a road is 8m wide. A 150km piece of road, let's say a test road would return $40 million in a year. And let's say it's shit. The worst road ever. You can't stop on it, you can't see the LED's and all that. $40million as return in a year is surely enough to try it again. And again and again.40 mil USD is on an ideal road and is without:
can you not come up with 10-15 examples to something that we have now and seemed impossible before? Do you need help?
Rob, I'm not saying that it is possible. Maybe it's not, I can't tell from sitting in a chair (and I don't think anybody of you can either).
What I'm saying it that I consider it primitive to make up stuff as part of an argument against something just because you don't like the idea or you THINK it's not doable. Even worse to blow somebody else's trumpet without doing your OWN calculations and experiments. This thing didn't get a fair trial.
Create less horrible conditions.
If pointing the LED up is horrible because it wouldn't be visible then how about not pointing them up as a start? Done. One problem less.
Let's just say that you don't know how to make it happen.
I think you calculated the return as $33/m2/year. in your calculations a road is 8m wide. A 150km piece of road, let's say a test road would return $40 million in a year. And let's say it's shit. The worst road ever. You can't stop on it, you can't see the LED's and all that. $40million as return in a year is surely enough to try it again. And again and again.
Well, they spent 800k USD without sufficiently answering lots of questions, addressing lots of issues raised, they delete comments on their youtube channel asking for clarification, reaction or criticism, leaving only praise - which is not peer review, the basis for science. Which is fishy at the best of times.
under the most horrible unoptimised conditions possible
Create less horrible conditions. If pointing the LED up is horrible because it wouldn't be visible then how about not pointing them up as a start? Done. One problem less.
The LED problem is a complete red herring! It doesn't matterYeah, there are definitely a lot more important issues, but I'm curious how even the simpler ones would be fixed. :D
I could engineer a way to make the LEDs work (at extra cost), but that is beside the point.
Rob, I'm not saying that it is possible. Maybe it's not, I can't tell from sitting in a chair (and I don't think anybody of you can either). What I'm saying it that I consider it primitive to make up stuff as part of an argument against something just because you don't like the idea or you THINK it's not doable. Even worse to blow somebody else's trumpet without doing your OWN calculations and experiments. This thing didn't get a fair trial. Normally before I say that something is impossible I try first. Not once, fifty times. (How many times did you try to ride your bike before it actually happened? Once? I don't think so. And that's so easy that even a 5 years old can do that.) And then all it means that _I_ can't do it. This is how things go forward. Nobody believes in something, then on dude makes it happen. Then the rest learns. You are the rest. I expect engineers to be way more creative. This is what I'm saying. And I'm not arguing about this, I'm saying it as my opinion.
If they only put the panels on bends that face into the sun and inclined them NASCAR style, would that help? If not, they should do it anyway.
Sync: First thing what comes to my mind is the $40 million profit from a 150k stretch of road vs the $0 profit of an asphalt road.Please proof the $40 million profit. I want to see the calculation.
Your calculations what you've done from your chair show a $33 profit per m^2 which is a LOT.
Sync: First thing what comes to my mind is the $40 million profit from a 150k stretch of road vs the $0 profit of an asphalt road.Please proof the $40 million profit. I want to see the calculation.
Please proof the $40 million profit. I want to see the calculation.
Please proof the $40 million profit. I want to see the calculation.
He's technically right based on my generous best case number of $33/sqm.
8m x 150,000m x $33/sqm/year = $40M / year potential income.
Of course he forgot to include the cost of system which I ballpark estimate at $2.2BN
Your calculations what you've done from your chair show a $33 profit per m^2 which is a LOT.They don't show a profit. They show that you'll get energy worth 33 USD/m^2 under absolutely ideal conditions. Substract the costs of installation, maintenance, replacement...
You can challenge me all you want. I accept your calculations, they show that there's quite a lot of energy left even after the LED trick, + there's a huge return on that AND it surly will trigger unprecedented improvement of the solar energy technology.I still don't see this huge return you speak of - in economic term you get PURE loss, no matter how optimistic you get. From an engineering point of view it's annoying that people chose to finance the WORST POSSIBLE PLACE to slap a solar panel onto. Assuming that someone would be actually insane enough to finance this vision and pave the whole of the US road system with solar panels it would cost probably enough to cover Texas with solar panels. Essentially what annoys me is that instead of just using places that are perfect for this stuff (deserts, roofs...), are unused and require zero-ish maintenance people threw 2mil USD on a project that has more engineering, economic, safety, social and other reality related issues than pretty much every other bad idea over the past few years.
I don't understand why you all worry about how much money they got. What dies it matter rom engineering point of view?
About maintenance and replacement: current existing roads also have this problem without making a penny.Yes, current roads just sit there, bearing cars. The maintenance for a segment of road is a relatively simple process that involves slapping on/fixing a substance that costs, what, 20 USD/m2 @ bulk (give or take 500%), which is pretty easily recyclable. The maintenance for this contraption involves removal of (possibly seriously damaged) glass hex tiles @ a few hundred USD/pcs min @ bulk with another one, connecting it back into the grid (which can be just as damaged, and live).
He's technically right based on my generous best case number of $33/sqm.Yes, that's income. But I even doubt that. It's a best case scenario. I think it's more likely <<$10/m² per year. For example you are using $0.24/kWh for the calculation. Which is way too much. I'm guessing this price is subsidized. This won't work when you have massive installations like the solar roadways idea.
8m x 150,000m x $33/sqm/year = $40M / year potential income.
Of course he forgot to include the cost of system which I ballpark estimate at $2.2BN
engineers with zero faithFaith? You argue faith based engineering instead of fact based engineering?
arguing endlessly against something.Actually, we are not arguing. We have done our fact checks. We don't have to argue, we know it won't work. We pass some "endless" time here because it is fun to pile facts upon facts that it won't work.
And we have a lot of snow.And with snow and ice, especially on roadways I guess you have also snow plow trucks that are carefully scrubbing the asphalt.
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/06/23/3451684/future-of-solar-technology/ (http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/06/23/3451684/future-of-solar-technology/)
Nice try guys, but no engineer would fall for that.
And the guy is an engineer. Either the worst engineer ever having managed to get an EE degree (unaccredited prestigious university anyone?), or a scammer.
Scott has multiple patents and his hardware and software have been sold internationally.
But they claim he has some patents? Must be really smart to use money on patents? Or other peoples money?
But they claim he has some patents? Must be really smart to use money on patents? Or other peoples money?
5,523,781 System for controlling television and billing for its use
5,124,795 Tier selection control for a television set
Max: fair point, excellent argument. This is exactly my point, that the video in question is NOT about that but about made up problems like the orientation of the LED, and this and that. If we don't want to do that because we rather spend the money on other things then fine.
Sync: First thing what comes to my mind is the $40 million profit from a 150k stretch of road vs the $0 profit of an asphalt road.As said, that's income, excluding costs.
I understand the heating cost problem. In the video David is not talking about the heating cost at all. I understand that it's a lot of energy to heat something.
About maintenance and replacement: current existing roads also have this problem without making a penny.But aren't a few orders of magnitude more expensive.
You can challenge me all you want. I accept your calculations, they show that there's quite a lot of energy left even after the LED trick, + there's a huge return on that AND it surly will trigger unprecedented improvement of the solar energy technology.
I don't understand why you all worry about how much money they got. What dies it matter rom engineering point of view?
Guys,
can you not come up with 10-15 examples to something that we have now and seemed impossible before? Do you need help?
One comment about the inverter in each panel. Why not tie a long string of panels in series, say up to about 500V, then have a single inverter every so often?One of the issues raised by the whole concept is safety and what happens during extreme breakdowns - say, two trucks collide. On a normal road you get scratches in the tarmac, various destruction and damage to the road and all sorts of nasty. On a road with a 500V string of relatively hard voltage you can add electrocution to the list of fun joys. You can of course guard against it by mechanical and electrical means, which is another expense.
People who are NOT Electrical Engineers are falling for this hook, line and sinker.
Well this guy will go down in history as the stupidest engineer, or as the most brilliant one. Edison too was ridiculed before he invented the light bulb didn't he?
Guys,
can you not come up with 10-15 examples to something that we have now and seemed impossible before? Do you need help?
time travel
flying cars
fountain of youth
true artificial intelligence
food in pill form
housing on mars
light sabers
laser guns
intergalactic travel
true perpetual motion
traveling at the speed of light.
oh, wait, no, those are things that seemed impossible that we CANNOT DO, because they are impossible, and if someone says they can, they are either scam artists, or complete fucking idiots. just like solar roadways.
I can just imagine people stealing the panels.... The next day the road is gone.
Depending on how you're defining "flying car" we actually do have a few of those, they're just not very practical or reliable (one of the big problems being you need both a driving licence and pilot's licence to use one fully). I'm also not willing to call a couple of other things on that list "impossible", merely impractical with current technology; it's possible they're going to remain impractical too.
And I'd be inclined to put the solar roadway in the same category, it's not impossible. It's just impractical.
I understand the heating cost problem. In the video David is not talking about the heating cost at all. I understand that it's a lot of energy to heat something. About maintenance and replacement: current existing roads also have this problem without making a penny.
David: the other seemingly unbelievable projects are not related to the roadway project but to the attitude of your video and the general scepticism. if the solar roadway dudes (SRD) don't do research or delete comments or evil, then make a video about that.
Your calculations what you've done from your chair show a $33 profit per m^2 which is a LOT.
It would be infinitely cheaper to just build giant arrays of solar panels close to distribution centers, and then install lights and heating into existing asphalt roadways.
But the biggest one - and the one that Dave has hit on most... what is the connection between roads and solar power generation? There is really NOTHING at all about roadways that make them a convenient candidate for solar power gathering. They are often obstructed by cars, trees, road dirt and such. Their orientation is massively inefficient for solar energy gathering. And the problems of making solar panels transparent and able to be driven over are all manufactured problems... they are not problems that need solved other than because you want to put a solar panel under the road. But why would you want to do that? It goes back to the root problem - there is nothing about roads that make them ideal candidates for solar panels.
These 2 paragraphs describe the problem with American liberals. Good thoughts and intentions can fix everything.
......
With all due respect to you - because we don't know each other - there is a certain type of personality defect where people don't understand a thing but display a lot of arrogance in thinking they don't need to understand it in order to pass judgement on it, and naivete in thinking that all problems can be solved with sufficient time/money/effort. There is a lot of that going around with "solar roadways", with non-engineers saying "well, we'll just find a way to solve those problems".
The laws of physics do not bend for any amount of effort or money. They are immutable. The problems that make solar roadways unfeasible are not problems that simply require time or effort to solve. They are fundamental problems that render the whole idea useless. Like personal flying cars... they will never happen for umpteen reasons that don't need to be explained. It's no different with solar roadways - there are umpteen fundamental problems that make the whole idea non-feasible.
...
This article clams that Bill Nye The Science Guy is a "fan" of Solar Roadways.
http://www.boiseweekly.com/CityDesk/archives/2014/06/23/idaho-solar-roadways-co-catches-attention-of-white-house-bill-nye (http://www.boiseweekly.com/CityDesk/archives/2014/06/23/idaho-solar-roadways-co-catches-attention-of-white-house-bill-nye)
I certainly hope not...
Just because THIS particular implementation of a solar roadway seems impractical is not the same as proving that no solar roadway can ever be practical or cost effective. I can't imagine one at the moment, but that is also not proof. There are many technological inovations we enjoy today that would have been considered equally fanciful to past generations.
Pick any technological innovation you like that ever encountered problems that made it seem unfeasible and tell me it exists because of something other than time and effort.
These 2 paragraphs describe the problem with American liberals. Good thoughts and intentions can fix everything.
......
With all due respect to you - because we don't know each other - there is a certain type of personality defect where people don't understand a thing but display a lot of arrogance in thinking they don't need to understand it in order to pass judgement on it, and naivete in thinking that all problems can be solved with sufficient time/money/effort. There is a lot of that going around with "solar roadways", with non-engineers saying "well, we'll just find a way to solve those problems".
The laws of physics do not bend for any amount of effort or money. They are immutable. The problems that make solar roadways unfeasible are not problems that simply require time or effort to solve. They are fundamental problems that render the whole idea useless. Like personal flying cars... they will never happen for umpteen reasons that don't need to be explained. It's no different with solar roadways - there are umpteen fundamental problems that make the whole idea non-feasible.
...
These 2 paragraphs describe the problem with American liberals. Good thoughts and intentions can fix everything.
......
With all due respect to you - because we don't know each other - there is a certain type of personality defect where people don't understand a thing but display a lot of arrogance in thinking they don't need to understand it in order to pass judgement on it, and naivete in thinking that all problems can be solved with sufficient time/money/effort. There is a lot of that going around with "solar roadways", with non-engineers saying "well, we'll just find a way to solve those problems".
The laws of physics do not bend for any amount of effort or money. They are immutable. The problems that make solar roadways unfeasible are not problems that simply require time or effort to solve. They are fundamental problems that render the whole idea useless. Like personal flying cars... they will never happen for umpteen reasons that don't need to be explained. It's no different with solar roadways - there are umpteen fundamental problems that make the whole idea non-feasible.
...
A guy I went to school with who is now a professor at a university and freely admits he's a socialist once told me "When I was a kid, I used to think big ideas were equivalent to big deeds."
Or as the old saying goes "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"
The backers lack knowledge of the current state of the technology,(of any technology,for that matter) so they are probably more receptive to fairy stories than people in Henry Ford's day.
Is it just that this generation don't ever look at the real world outside their iPads?
Or are they just dumber? ;D
imo, BOTTOM LINE, with this, as with ANY "crowd funded" project, if it were a good, feasible, solid, profitable idea, they would not need to beg for money to get it made. the market would fund it through sales of a good product.
...
imo, BOTTOM LINE, with this, as with ANY "crowd funded" project, if it were a good, feasible, solid, profitable idea, they would not need to beg for money to get it made. the market would fund it through sales of a good product.
anything that cant sell itself, is not getting bought by big corps (who specialize in making money off of products) or has to be funded by the govt, right off the bat theres your first clue its bullshit.
if there really was money to be made with solar roadways, ge, dupont, sony, samsung, lg, ti, chevron, phillips, ect.... would already be pumping them out.
imo, BOTTOM LINE, with this, as with ANY "crowd funded" project, if it were a good, feasible, solid, profitable idea, they would not need to beg for money to get it made. the market would fund it through sales of a good product.
...
Don't think so.
Cool-sounding ideas like the recent "Solar Freaking Roadways" campaign don't always work out when you run the numbers.and has an interesting proposal:
imo, BOTTOM LINE, with this, as with ANY "crowd funded" project, if it were a good, feasible, solid, profitable idea, they would not need to beg for money to get it made. the market would fund it through sales of a good product.
anything that cant sell itself, is not getting bought by big corps (who specialize in making money off of products) or has to be funded by the govt, right off the bat theres your first clue its bullshit.
if there really was money to be made with solar roadways, ge, dupont, sony, samsung, lg, ti, chevron, phillips, ect.... would already be pumping them out.
"Has to be funded by the Government" doesn't always mean bullshit.---the majority of the most important infrastructure in Australia was funded that way.
Things may be very different in the USA,..................
imo, BOTTOM LINE, with this, as with ANY "crowd funded" project, if it were a good, feasible, solid, profitable idea, they would not need to beg for money to get it made. the market would fund it through sales of a good product.
anything that cant sell itself, is not getting bought by big corps (who specialize in making money off of products) or has to be funded by the govt, right off the bat theres your first clue its bullshit.
if there really was money to be made with solar roadways, ge, dupont, sony, samsung, lg, ti, chevron, phillips, ect.... would already be pumping them out.
"Has to be funded by the Government" doesn't always mean bullshit.---the majority of the most important infrastructure in Australia was funded that way.
Things may be very different in the USA,..................
in the usa, the govt are professionals at wasting money. from solar roads, to recycling plastic and paper, to subsidizing "arts", ect.... anything they put money towards is nearly always bullshit.
The backers lack knowledge of the current state of the technology,(of any technology,for that matter) so they are probably more receptive to fairy stories than people in Henry Ford's day.
Good charlatans know how to sell to the public, and Solar Roadways has done it really well.
But when people continue to staunchly believe, and will express no doubt when people in the profession come along and say it's not possible and prove it with basic numbers and tests, that's when the real problem begins. At this point you don't a public that's been cleverly tricked, you start to have religious belief, and that's both dangerous and sad.
A standard armoured reconnaissance vehicle exerts a ground pressure of 5 kg/sq.cm. Equipped with the Michelin LX PSI 710/75 R 34 anti-landmine tyres, each weighing 200kg, the roughly 7.5-tonne SOUVIM II vehicle applies a ground pressure of just 360 g/sq.cm. That’s less than an 80-kg walking human, which exerts about 660 g/sq.m of ground pressure per footfall, and – for anecdotal purposes – even less than a 2.5kg rabbit, which applies 450 g/sq.cm to the soil.
Rabbits can set off landmines; I don't really see a point to that vehicle.
Rabbits can set off landmines; I don't really see a point to that vehicle.
OMG there is ANOTHER ONE!They clearly say it's an experiment. Their approach is to pave a short cycle path and measure over a long period. No 'we are production ready kickstarter' here.
http://www.solaroad.nl/en/ (http://www.solaroad.nl/en/)
:o
Not nearly as whacko though. The Brushaw's are the Michael Jackson of the solar road industry.
For example, there is a better suited place along the roads, the noise blockers (two walls on the two sides).
For example, there is a better suited place along the roads, the noise blockers (two walls on the two sides).
We have that (well, almost):
https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.287951,4.917936,3a,75y,53.4h,87.48t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s0i0STJDaGQknfEWOq-kyCQ!2e0 (https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.287951,4.917936,3a,75y,53.4h,87.48t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s0i0STJDaGQknfEWOq-kyCQ!2e0)
OMG there is ANOTHER ONE!
http://www.solaroad.nl/en/ (http://www.solaroad.nl/en/)
:o
Not nearly as whacko though. The Brushaw's are the Michael Jackson of the solar road industry.
SolaRoad is being developed as prefabricated slabs. It consists of concrete modules of 2.5 by 3.5 meters with a translucent top layer of tempered glass, which is about 1 cm thick. Underneath the glass are crystalline silicon solar cells. The top layer immediately shows an important difference from the traditional road surface. It has to be translucent for sunlight and repel dirt as much as possible. At the same time, the top layer must be skid resistant and strong enough in order to realize a safe road surface. This is one of the technical challenges of SolaRoad.
those have at least much (really much) better construction than the hexagon miracle ones...
those have at least much (really much) better construction than the hexagon miracle ones...
Yes, it looks like something I'd dare to ride my bike on. In fact I will when it's finished, since it is close to me. Wait for the full report :)
:bullshit: I have to agree with Dave, this is BS. It makes much more sense to put solar panels on roofs etc, then they don't have to be super though and can be more efficient, will have better angle towards sun, production will be closer to the user and you can use existing infrastructure for transformers and such... Even if they could make something that works they can't make it more cost effective than roof-panels or even just putting up panels next to/over the road as mentioned previously
From an engineering perspective, it's seldom hard to build something if money isn't a issue (e.g. pyramids), what's difficult is to make things as cost effective and efficient as possible imo.
those have at least much (really much) better construction than the hexagon miracle ones...
Yes, it looks like something I'd dare to ride my bike on. In fact I will when it's finished, since it is close to me. Wait for the full report :)
those have at least much (really much) better construction than the hexagon miracle ones...
Yes, it looks like something I'd dare to ride my bike on. In fact I will when it's finished, since it is close to me. Wait for the full report :)
I thought the slabs where going to be used for the walls of a structure. Even so if this is an evaluation of materials (and it seems to be) I have no problem with it. If however it's to get a bit of the solar roadways "pie" then either they are scam artists or fools (take your pick).
Bicycle path
As a pilot, approximately one hundred meters of SolaRoad cycle path will be placed along the provincial road N203 near Krommenie. Before the actual construction of such a cycle path, it will thoroughly be tested in a laboratory environment. In the autumn of 2014, the SolaRoad cycle track will be built. It will then remain in situ there for a number of years. During this time, research will be conducted continuously and the technique will be further developed.
The GPS data of the location are: 52.493875, 4.767134
The dutch project seems interesting. No a wild claim but a real world test.
As for solar panels on roofs, you must remind yourself that in certain places in Holland or Belgium, the available roof space is already saturated.
On the motorway Antwerp and Rotterdam, I'm pretty sure there's a few km of "solar wall" separating the road and a commercial park - probably also a test.
So they are trying to find other places to make marginal gains, not trying to solve world poverty with hexagons.
http://www.solaroad.nl/en/ (http://www.solaroad.nl/en/)
Solar Freaking Grandmas![/url]:-+ :-+
Solar Freaking Grandmas
Great traction, but now it is a matt surface that reflects 80% of incident light........
I'm with you Dave but here is what they say about traction:
....
We designed a more and more aggressive surface pattern until we got a call form the lab one day: we'd torn the boot off of the British Pendulum Testing apparatus! We backed off a little and ended up with a texture that can stop a vehicle going 80 mph in the required distance.
What I ask is where is the video? ???
Great traction, but now it is a matt surface that reflects 80% of incident light........
And concentrates the rest...
Great traction, but now it is a matt surface that reflects 80% of incident light........
And concentrates the rest...
You can concentrate it till you're blue in the face---it's still only 20%!
(Actually,it is 20% of what would get through an plain piece of glass,which is already less than 100%)
It sounds like a typical left idea. Its all about seeming to do something for the environment, but actually doing nothing for the environment.
It sounds like a typical left idea. Its all about seeming to do something for the environment, but actually doing nothing for the environment.
While the idea is stupid, why do you feel the need to spread your stupid "it is all communism" propaganda? One and a half month after the last comment. Do you scan old threads to spew your bullshit, or are you such a slow reader and writer that it took you 1.5 month to come up with this bullshit?
It sounds like a typical left idea. Its all about seeming to do something for the environment, but actually doing nothing for the environment.
While the idea is stupid, why do you feel the need to spread your stupid "it is all communism" propaganda? One and a half month after the last comment. Do you scan old threads to spew your bullshit, or are you such a slow reader and writer that it took you 1.5 month to come up with this bullshit?
Well firstly I never said it was communism, secondly I have only been watching this blog for the last month, and am still watching videos. And thirdly you sound like a typical left yourself. You can never argue the facts and you only attack the person.
Not a single word disproving what I said, not a single argument about how this idea isn't leftist. And BTW you probably wouldn't be so bored at work if you actually did some work, or has your union told you otherwise?
That is right, don't find the cause for the stupidity, just follow along. Others will do the thinking for you!It sounds like a typical left idea. Its all about seeming to do something for the environment, but actually doing nothing for the environment.
While the idea is stupid, why do you feel the need to spread your stupid "it is all communism" propaganda? One and a half month after the last comment. Do you scan old threads to spew your bullshit, or are you such a slow reader and writer that it took you 1.5 month to come up with this bullshit?
Well firstly I never said it was communism, secondly I have only been watching this blog for the last month, and am still watching videos. And thirdly you sound like a typical left yourself. You can never argue the facts and you only attack the person.
Not a single word disproving what I said, not a single argument about how this idea isn't leftist. And BTW you probably wouldn't be so bored at work if you actually did some work, or has your union told you otherwise?
Piss off with your pointless, poisonous political views and discuss the topic.
Piss off with your pointless, poisonous political views and discuss the topic.
That is right, don't find the cause for the stupidity, just follow along. Others will do the thinking for you!
Today, power is generated based on a possible peak demand, eg. if we all stopped using electricity for an hour, we would burn the same amount of fossil fuels as if everyone was using electricity for that hour.:palm:
Today, power is generated based on a possible peak demand, eg. if we all stopped using electricity for an hour, we would burn the same amount of fossil fuels as if everyone was using electricity for that hour.:palm:
And again this is really the left just trying to seem like their doing something for the environment, but in reality doing absolutely nothing.
Since when did telling the truth become insulting?That is right, don't find the cause for the stupidity, just follow along. Others will do the thinking for you!
Because shoving everyone into one of two or three mostly meaningless political groups and then proceeding to insult them is thinking. |O
Are you really that stupid? It takes time to generate power.That's not what my physics teacher told me.
he tells me that power is generated based on possible peak demand regardless of how much power is actually usedGrid energy storage must have come a long way since I last looked. :o
Your physics teacher is probably a lefty :)QuoteAre you really that stupid? It takes time to generate power.That's not what my physics teacher told me.
Don't confuse him, there's a good chance he hasn't taken his meds yet :scared:Quotehe tells me that power is generated based on possible peak demand regardless of how much power is actually usedGrid energy storage must have come a long way since I last looked. :o
I have a friend who is on the board of a major power supplier and he tells me ...You really need to vet you technical sources a little better
QuoteAre you really that stupid? It takes time to generate power.That's not what my physics teacher told me.
Quotehe tells me that power is generated based on possible peak demand regardless of how much power is actually usedGrid energy storage must have come a long way since I last looked. :o
he tells me that power is generated based on possible peak demand regardless of how much power is actually usedcould be: he tells me that the power generation capacity is based on possible peak demand regardless of how much power is actually used
It takes time to generate power.
What I was trying to underline, was that you should be more careful with your terminology otherwise you could give a different meaning to what you are trying to say.Ok got the point, still learning the electronics lingo :PQuotehe tells me that power is generated based on possible peak demand regardless of how much power is actually usedcould be: he tells me that the power generation capacity is based on possible peak demand regardless of how much power is actually usedQuoteIt takes time to generate power.
could be: It takes time to bring generators online.
ziggyfish - turn on your country flag.There you go.
Your physics teacher is probably a lefty :)
I did this MOOC by Donald Sadoway from MIT called Solid State Chemistry. Excellent course. He thought about the problem of grid level storage of electricity and found a solution. Here is his Ted talk about. This about 2 years old and his company getting massive investment now, because it will make renewables much more plausible or effective.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sddb0Khx0yA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sddb0Khx0yA)
That's not horrid.
If each battery cost $1M to build and deploy (including infrastructure to integrate into the grid) you looking in the order of $1B.
If you take a decade to roll this out its $100M a year.
What the hell - double it to $200M a year for 10 years and you could supply a whole country's power from renewable energy.
I'm not a fab of government subsidised PV but I can get behind this!
That's not horrid.It is $115B, not $1B.
If each battery cost $1M to build and deploy (including infrastructure to integrate into the grid) you looking in the order of $1B.
If you take a decade to roll this out its $100M a year.
What the hell - double it to $200M a year for 10 years and you could supply a whole country's power from renewable energy.
I'm not a fab of government subsidised PV but I can get behind this!
Also he doesn't mention anything about how much energy is lost by heat and other processes in the battery.Wikipedia suggests that they have it at 69% efficient.
But it's not going to fix solar roadways.
That's not horrid.It is $115B, not $1B.
If each battery cost $1M to build and deploy (including infrastructure to integrate into the grid) you looking in the order of $1B.
If you take a decade to roll this out its $100M a year.
What the hell - double it to $200M a year for 10 years and you could supply a whole country's power from renewable energy.
I'm not a fab of government subsidised PV but I can get behind this!
But it's not going to fix solar roadways.
In a university it is NOT about solving problems, it is about getting rich through research grants. He knows it won't work but he is hoping no one else figures it out.
Everyone who invests in his pipe dream, deserves what he gets, or doesn't get.
edit his quote ends my reply stats
Prove that it is a pipedream. Surely this fully "tenured" professor would offer himself up to ridicule missed by other thousands of specialists in the field of electrochemistry which he is a world leader. Come on
In a university it is NOT about solving problems, it is about getting rich through research grants.
In a university it is NOT about solving problems, it is about getting rich through research grants.
Ridiculous assertion. No one gets rich from research grants. Any successful academic researcher who cares about wealth bails to take a job in private industry or forms a start up.
Been there, done that..
I worked for a large computer company. We had PhDs come into work. THEY WERE USELESS.In a university it is NOT about solving problems, it is about getting rich through research grants.
Ridiculous assertion. No one gets rich from research grants. Any successful academic researcher who cares about wealth bails to take a job in private industry or forms a start up.
Been there, done that..
Unfortunately there is no PhD that deals with real world.
I wouldn't go to that extreme, plenty of PhDs do useful work that we mere humans can't even grasp, they might still have little knowledge in the area but their knowledge is still orders of magnitude higher than our little knowledge.It's not what you know, but what you do with what you know.
But I get the hating in something you didn't achieve since I don't have a PhD either.
Say carbon nanotubes were not invented by engineers, not their properties studied by engineers. PhDs created them, studied them and figure out properties that could make them suitable for display or camera sensors among other things.You seem to think PhDs and engineers are something different. There are as many PhDs in the various engineering disciplines as in any other subject.
Say carbon nanotubes were not invented by engineers, not their properties studied by engineers. PhDs created them, studied them and figure out properties that could make them suitable for display or camera sensors among other things.You seem to think PhDs and engineers are something different. There are as many PhDs in the various engineering disciplines as in any other subject.
http://www.solaroad.nl/en/ (http://www.solaroad.nl/en/)I wonder what we are actually looking at in that picture. It looks like naked cells on the left, and cells covered by some kind of surfacing material on the right. The guy with the drill seems to be cutting a shaping surface material, which appears to be flexible. I could be completely wrong, though. Maybe only half the width of that path is actually solar cells.
But no space age Glass hexagons or multi gigawatt leds to shine in the daylight?
Maybe only half the width of that path is actually solar cells.
Note that only half the road module is a solar panel the other half is a regular concrete road surface. Thus likely the solar side is only there with the possibility of you walking on it without damage, not really for cycling on the slippery glass surface.
Note that only half the road module is a solar panel the other half is a regular concrete road surface. Thus likely the solar side is only there with the possibility of you walking on it without damage, not really for cycling on the slippery glass surface.If the surface above those solar cells is slippery glass it won't be safe for bikes or pedestrians. They must have some kind of texturing to allow grip.
If the surface above those solar cells is slippery glass it won't be safe for bikes or pedestrians. They must have some kind of texturing to allow grip.
If the surface above those solar cells is slippery glass it won't be safe for bikes or pedestrians. They must have some kind of texturing to allow grip.
Look at this picture: http://www.solaroad.nl/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/ElementbijStrukton.jpg (http://www.solaroad.nl/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/ElementbijStrukton.jpg)
I have no idea why they are doing it...The money?
...or what they expectThe money.
Ok it is not slippery, but see that little strip of ground between the cycle path and the walkway? You could have placed poles there 3m high, with regular solar panels on it, which probably cost 10% of the design cost of these embedded panels.
I can predict that they will perform poorly over a year. But the data will be cherry picked for the best spin. Would be interesting to see the comparison from a similar stretch in the same area with panels on either a rooftop or on a series of poles along a road. My money is the panels up higher will win hands down for cost, power output, longevity, reliability, ease of installation and lifetime in all respects.
About the only good thing for a solar road is it is flat, it is not any more proof against either nature of Yoof wiv an Hattitude, who will damage it. Only those who cannot find a rock, hammer or anything heavy to drop on it will not damage it.
Those guys just redefined the lower bound of stupid. :palm:
"Snow" indicates months where no data was collected because the panels were covered in snow and collected zero solar energy. Keep in mind that Solar Roadways will collect solar energy in every kind of weather as the panels will never be covered in snow thanks to our heating elements.
Finally, with this new information a new era of solar power can begin.
1. Mounting the panels in an angled layout provides for a performance improvement of 12.4% across the test sites.Lets just make conical car and truck wheels then! Problem solved*!
No big surprise here
so many arguments.
I thought i should mention a few interesting points though. With such a road you dont need heating elements. The power circuits will produce heat which will be consistent, good to melt snow so just by using the heat from energy loss in making electricity you save even more power instead of using energy for a heating element.
Its not good to talk about money in the sense of making something because raw materials vary in cost from time to time and from manufacturer to manufacturer. China has built many ghost cities.
I think putting solar on top buildings will be better because in the City or highway if you have traffic jam than you're covering the road. Sidewalks, the lane bits of a parking lot, buildings would be better for solar rather than roads which are covered as they are driven on. People dont block more sun than cars. Solar covered telephone poles and bus stops as they also double as a roof during rain doubling as a roof for your walkways during rain.
The project may be legit but the idea and implementation very inefficient.
1. Mounting the panels in an angled layout provides for a performance improvement of 12.4% across the test sites.Lets just make conical car and truck wheels then! Problem solved*!
No big surprise here
1. Mounting the panels in an angled layout provides for a performance improvement of 12.4% across the test sites.Lets just make conical car and truck wheels then! Problem solved*!
No big surprise here
I'd LOVE to see you in action in a brainstorming session!!
I've been banned from attending.1. Mounting the panels in an angled layout provides for a performance improvement of 12.4% across the test sites.Lets just make conical car and truck wheels then! Problem solved*!
No big surprise here
I'd LOVE to see you in action in a brainstorming session!!
They ask you to think outside the box, but when you do you find yourself outside the room.I've been banned from attending.1. Mounting the panels in an angled layout provides for a performance improvement of 12.4% across the test sites.Lets just make conical car and truck wheels then! Problem solved*!
No big surprise here
I'd LOVE to see you in action in a brainstorming session!!
...With such a road you dont need heating elements. The power circuits will produce heat which will be consistent, good to melt snow so just by using the heat from energy loss in making electricity you save even more power instead of using energy for a heating element.You have a huge underestimation of the efficiency power circuits reached in these years, and a bad understanding of the amount of joules you need to melt snow.
...With such a road you dont need heating elements. The power circuits will produce heat which will be consistent, good to melt snow so just by using the heat from energy loss in making electricity you save even more power instead of using energy for a heating element.You have a huge underestimation of the efficiency power circuits reached in these years, and a bad understanding of the amount of joules you need to melt snow.
And combined: How to melt snow on panels with the unefficiency of circuits that convert no energy because the panels are under that snow?
...With such a road you dont need heating elements. The power circuits will produce heat which will be consistent, good to melt snow so just by using the heat from energy loss in making electricity you save even more power instead of using energy for a heating element.You have a huge underestimation of the efficiency power circuits reached in these years, and a bad understanding of the amount of joules you need to melt snow.
And combined: How to melt snow on panels with the unefficiency of circuits that convert no energy because the panels are under that snow?
The crux of the matter is simply that underneath a bloody road is about the worst place you could ever install PV panels.
The idea is utter stupidity, and has zero redeeming features.
...With such a road you dont need heating elements. The power circuits will produce heat which will be consistent, good to melt snow so just by using the heat from energy loss in making electricity you save even more power instead of using energy for a heating element.You have a huge underestimation of the efficiency power circuits reached in these years, and a bad understanding of the amount of joules you need to melt snow.
And combined: How to melt snow on panels with the unefficiency of circuits that convert no energy because the panels are under that snow?
The crux of the matter is simply that underneath a bloody road is about the worst place you could ever install PV panels.
The idea is utter stupidity, and has zero redeeming features.
Actually it does. It's incredibly good at generating publicity and revenue.
so many arguments.Try looking up the latent heat of melting water.
I thought i should mention a few interesting points though. With such a road you dont need heating elements. The power circuits will produce heat which will be consistent, good to melt snow so just by using the heat from energy loss in making electricity you save even more power instead of using energy for a heating element.
...With such a road you dont need heating elements. The power circuits will produce heat which will be consistent, good to melt snow so just by using the heat from energy loss in making electricity you save even more power instead of using energy for a heating element.You have a huge underestimation of the efficiency power circuits reached in these years, and a bad understanding of the amount of joules you need to melt snow.
And combined: How to melt snow on panels with the unefficiency of circuits that convert no energy because the panels are under that snow?
So you don't think there will be a problem with your low heat output being swapped by the cold environment which lead to the water being frozen in the first place? Latent heat works both ways. You need a lot of energy to melt the ice, because the environment had the capacity to suck a lot of energy out of the water and turn it into ice. Perhaps your slow thaw concept is based on waiting for spring?...With such a road you dont need heating elements. The power circuits will produce heat which will be consistent, good to melt snow so just by using the heat from energy loss in making electricity you save even more power instead of using energy for a heating element.You have a huge underestimation of the efficiency power circuits reached in these years, and a bad understanding of the amount of joules you need to melt snow.
And combined: How to melt snow on panels with the unefficiency of circuits that convert no energy because the panels are under that snow?
While snow requires a lot of energy there is one other factor, time. You can melt snow using a low heat output but it will take longer. All those power distribution, power converters and all other components they produce heat so why be wasteful. Think about it this way, this system will be running the whole time, LEDs and power still distributed at night. Snow doesnt come down as 1 big lump, it comes down as flakes. Its only in places that get really really bad snow like the far north where the snowstorm is so thick that you cant see a thing and you get snow coming down onto the road from the slope next to it that you would need heating elements.
But the friction properties of the glass is important because when you melt snow you get water and this can make it slippery and if theres snow on the pavements and the road is angled to help with water dissipation the water could collect and make things worse.
...With such a road you dont need heating elements. The power circuits will produce heat which will be consistent, good to melt snow so just by using the heat from energy loss in making electricity you save even more power instead of using energy for a heating element.You have a huge underestimation of the efficiency power circuits reached in these years, and a bad understanding of the amount of joules you need to melt snow.
And combined: How to melt snow on panels with the unefficiency of circuits that convert no energy because the panels are under that snow?
While snow requires a lot of energy there is one other factor, time. You can melt snow using a low heat output but it will take longer. All those power distribution, power converters and all other components they produce heat so why be wasteful. Think about it this way, this system will be running the whole time, LEDs and power still distributed at night. Snow doesnt come down as 1 big lump, it comes down as flakes. Its only in places that get really really bad snow like the far north where the snowstorm is so thick that you cant see a thing and you get snow coming down onto the road from the slope next to it that you would need heating elements.
While snow requires a lot of energy there is one other factor, time. You can melt snow using a low heat output but it will take longer.
“If their version of the future is realistic, if we can make that happen, then roadways can begin paying for themselves,”
While snow requires a lot of energy there is one other factor, time. You can melt snow using a low heat output but it will take longer.Are you really that far in physics? congrats.
All those power distribution, power converters and all other components they produce heat so why be wasteful. Think about it this way, this system will be running the whole time, LEDs and power still distributed at night.Please express yourself in a SI unit, and show the dependence of the most important factors.
Still i'd like to see more solar
Still i'd like to see more solar
Everyone would, but putting them on roads is demonstrably stupid idea and always will be for dozens of reasons, not least of which:
https://youtu.be/RjbKYNcmFUw?t=7m51s
Looks like Route 66 is getting Solar Roadway cancer now. |O
http://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/iconic-route-66-americas-first-solar-roadway (http://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/iconic-route-66-americas-first-solar-roadway)
Looks like Route 66 is getting Solar Roadway cancer now. |O
http://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/iconic-route-66-americas-first-solar-roadway (http://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/iconic-route-66-americas-first-solar-roadway)
My Missouri tax dollars at work! I'd go check it out, but the install is a 3 hour drive from me.
If you live close, taking a few pictures each week as the work progresses would be very interesting. It could really show the massive scale of the work.Looks like Route 66 is getting Solar Roadway cancer now. |O
http://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/iconic-route-66-americas-first-solar-roadway (http://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/iconic-route-66-americas-first-solar-roadway)
My Missouri tax dollars at work! I'd go check it out, but the install is a 3 hour drive from me.
You need to do it just for the sake of getting photographic evidence of the ridiculous utility trench they have to build under the road.
The potential of the new system is huge. According to their calculations, a 1m² membrane with 30% of its surface covered by nanopores should be able to produce 1MW of electricity
I've seen phys.org publishing some really shit quality articles lately. What is up with them. I thought they were an outgrowth of the scientific journals?
I've seen phys.org publishing some really shit quality articles lately. What is up with them. I thought they were an outgrowth of the scientific journals?
My hometown Hannover (Germany) is becoming a new member in this exclusive bullshit club. :palm:
Solar bike path:
200m x 2.5m (between Ramlingen and Ehlershausen)
Build by WattWays or Solmove
235,000 €
Power could be used to light a bus stop and a crossroad. :clap:
But it should generate power for 20 households :-DD
A second bike path is planned with roof mounted solar panels:
100m x 5m (at Krähenwinkel)
231,000 €
Presentation from Department of transportation (pdf / german): http://regions-sitzungsinfo.hannit.de/bi/___tmp/tmp/45081036218561353/218561353/01116807/07-Anlagen/05/TOP411Solar-Radwege_Praesentation_VKA.pdf (http://regions-sitzungsinfo.hannit.de/bi/___tmp/tmp/45081036218561353/218561353/01116807/07-Anlagen/05/TOP411Solar-Radwege_Praesentation_VKA.pdf)
Send a link of Daves Videos to the political oposed fraction of the town - mayor and ask, why they suport this stupide bull-s*
Send a link of Daves Videos to the political oposed fraction of the town - mayor and ask, why they suport this stupide bull-s*
What distinguishes Dave from the people selling the solar roadways in the eyes of the mayor?
They both talk in nerdy concepts that make his head spin but only one of them is saying the mayor might get richer as a result.
Send a link of Daves Videos to the political oposed fraction of the town - mayor and ask, why they suport this stupide bull-s*
What distinguishes Dave from the people selling the solar roadways in the eyes of the mayor?
They both talk in nerdy concepts that make his head spin but only one of them is saying the mayor might get richer as a result.
That's why Barny said send it to the opposition politicians in the local government.
I know what he said, thanks.
How exactly would the opposition use Dave's video? The same problem applies.
Oh dear :palm:
https://www.arrow.com/en/research-and-events/articles/solar-roadways (https://www.arrow.com/en/research-and-events/articles/solar-roadways)
Oh dear :palm:
https://www.arrow.com/en/research-and-events/articles/solar-roadways (https://www.arrow.com/en/research-and-events/articles/solar-roadways)
Oh dear :palm:
https://www.arrow.com/en/research-and-events/articles/solar-roadways (https://www.arrow.com/en/research-and-events/articles/solar-roadways)
Now, on Friday, Sept. 30, Solar Roadways is scheduled to unveil its "first-even public demonstration" in Idaho's panhandle. KREM-TV reports the city of Sandpoint will be the first municipality in the nation to utilize roads that will feature solar panels and thousands of LED lights that will eliminate the need to paint traffic lines and caution messages on pavement. Most important, the micro- and macro-textures of the surface will be strong enough to support huge semi-tractor trailers.
The city of Sandpoint will have a web cam on the installation. I am going to have to ask if they will have a watt meter as well. :-/
The city of Sandpoint will have a web cam on the installation. I am going to have to ask if they will have a watt meter as well. :-/
I assume the web cam should be pointing at the watt meter.
(seriously, if you can contact them then ask them to do it!)
Apparently there's a lot of press interest tomorrow. :-//
What I need are EEVBlog press credentials so I can ask quiz the SR folks about the costs and ROI in front of the rest of the media. The coverage here is so fawning and unquestioning that it defies belief.
I'm going to try and be there for the unveiling of the solar freaking ...
This makes solar roadways obsolete - 1 megawatt per square meter!QuoteThe potential of the new system is huge. According to their calculations, a 1m² membrane with 30% of its surface covered by nanopores should be able to produce 1MW of electricityhttp://phys.org/news/2016-07-electricity-salt-three-atoms-thick-membrane.html (http://phys.org/news/2016-07-electricity-salt-three-atoms-thick-membrane.html)
This makes solar roadways obsolete - 1 megawatt per square meter!QuoteThe potential of the new system is huge. According to their calculations, a 1m² membrane with 30% of its surface covered by nanopores should be able to produce 1MW of electricityhttp://phys.org/news/2016-07-electricity-salt-three-atoms-thick-membrane.html (http://phys.org/news/2016-07-electricity-salt-three-atoms-thick-membrane.html)
Shame that only 1000W/sqm of solar insolation hits the earth surface ::)
Is that relevant? The system being described isn't solar; it uses osmotic power.
These osmotic systems are intriguing, but it seems like they need a level of cleanliness that would be hard to achieve on an industrial scale without using massive amounts of energy for the cleaning system. I haven't seen this angle properly addressed in the material I have read.This makes solar roadways obsolete - 1 megawatt per square meter!QuoteThe potential of the new system is huge. According to their calculations, a 1m² membrane with 30% of its surface covered by nanopores should be able to produce 1MW of electricityhttp://phys.org/news/2016-07-electricity-salt-three-atoms-thick-membrane.html (http://phys.org/news/2016-07-electricity-salt-three-atoms-thick-membrane.html)
Shame that only 1000W/sqm of solar insolation hits the earth surface ::)
Is that relevant? The system being described isn't solar; it uses osmotic power.
Norway is researching osmotic power systems and estimates that it could generate 10% of its total electricity requirements this way. The limiting factor seems to be the available volume of water with a suitable salinity gradient, such as estuaries.
According to the owner, Brusaw, making solar panels is like microwaving burritos...
#8
Not much power out of those panels, I would guess around 30W per panel, and at a price of around 200 times that of a 30W panel, including installation.
While you can stand on a glass panel and not break it, I would like to see those panels after 6 months of people walking across them with muddy shoes, high heels and the odd bike and street sweeper going over them. Then I would like to see the power output compared to a similar size installation on a nearby roof.
That is an odd assortment of parts.
I assume they are providing a 3 phase output with the 3 inverters, but they are 215W continuous each so very underrated for the panels. I do not quite see the point of a test like this if you are using inadequate cables and inadequate inverters - unless they know that the panels will only output less then a total of 600W absolute maximum.
The inverters will only switch on at 22V and the optimal working range for the inverters is 27V-39V so maybe the panels are wired for more then 24V.
And what are they doing with the 6 x 12V supplies from the mains? 12V is too low as a backup for the inverters and if they as putting a pair in series to get 24V, why wouldn't they buy 24V supplies? It does seem to suggest that they are using 10 panels per phase rather then pooling all the panel outputs together. It sounds like they are just making do with bits and pieces they had available.
It would be disappointing if this is just a stunt instead of a proper test to gather data.
If the idea is to gather data, then I do not mind the shadows - that it the reality of Solar Roadways unless you are going to ban cars, people, trees and all buildings anywhere near the roadways.
The power supplies must be for the heaters...
The power supplies must be for the heaters...
If there is only a pair of wires to each panel as shown in your photos, where does the heater bit come in?
Is there a separate heater pad under the panels... :-//
I'm confused...
Two wires are required for the transmission of power from the panels to the inverters.
There doesn't appear to be any electrical connection for heaters, unless I am missing something from your photos.
3000W of heating to keep a 600W maximum solar panel/inverter system running. It is still only 100W of heating per panel - is that enough? At a guess, it is probably enough to raise the panel temperature by 10 deg C if there is no snow or water. It will be interesting to see if historic and live data is available when the system is running.
7:26 pm PDT - Less than 12 hours after unveiling, two of the working panels have already had some type of electrical failure.
7:26 pm PDT - Less than 12 hours after unveiling, two of the working panels have already had some type of electrical failure.
A successful marketing campaign. Not.
I wonder if they went to the Roo Brothers School of Marketing.
Second thoughts, they can’t have, they delivered something…
All you need are blinky LEDs. Nothing else matters.
All you need are blinky LEDs. Nothing else matters.Then hire Mike, he knows how to make robust large scale blinking LED installations :)
All you need are blinky LEDs. Nothing else matters.Then hire Mike, he knows how to make robust large scale blinking LED installations :)
They did it better in 1977:[/size] Yay! Leds Lol :-DD
Site
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=259861;image)
There is a perfectly good road right in front of it, why not install the Solar Roadway there? ::)City administration is not THAT stupid.
#1
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=259826;image)
Disco floor mode.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ctw5SvRUIAELu1s?format=jpg&name=large)
Don't ask me how ANY of the lighting displayed corresponds to creating the yellow and white lane marking used on roadways. I haven't even seen what resembles an attempt to do so.
Site
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=259861;image)
There is a perfectly good road right in front of it, why not install the Solar Roadway there? ::)
They light up so pretty at night!
I wonder were they get the power from...
(http://i.imgur.com/Ih0nwzi.png)
The LEDs are quite coarsely spaced, and unless the panels are installed diagonally from the oncoming traffic, straights lines are going to be hard. BUt even then, look at the panels, the LEDs don't even line up between panels :palm:
Not that the LED idea is ever going to be practical anyway ::)
7:26 pm PDT - Less than 12 hours after unveiling, two of the working panels have already had some type of electrical failure.
The top surface of those panels appears to be an ordinary flat glass sheet. Isn't that going to be a little slippery if it rains? It looks like a real health and safety issue for passnig pedestrians. What happened to their low wear high grip vehicle grade glass surface?
The panels had to be installed on the sidewalk, because the minute it snowed, those panels would shatter with the first chained-up UPS truck going over.
And they don't look like they originally did because I'm fairly certain they realized just *how* poor the transmissivity of those first glass slabs were. Not that I think after the potting compound in these ages and yellows that this generation will fare much better.
I'll see if I can get up to Sandpoint in a week and take some daylight photos just to illustrate how indistinct the LEDs are. I saw absolutely no effort to address the directionality of the LEDs. I'm trying to be neutral, but it's hard not to feel insulted by just how little effort was put into developing a functional roadway that generates solar power. The two most important criteria have been completely ignored. And this is after ten years and nearly $3MM USD.
There is actually a very fine, but grippy texture on the surface. No worries about slipping. I tried it.And seriously, how long will that last ?
Quote from: LabSpokaneThere is actually a very fine, but grippy texture on the surface. No worries about slipping. I tried it.And seriously, how long will that last ?
The Engadget peanut gallery are out :palm:
https://www.engadget.com/2016/10/02/solar-roadways-public-test/ (https://www.engadget.com/2016/10/02/solar-roadways-public-test/)
(http://i.imgur.com/Bv5lxPz.png)
And so is missed the entire point of having an education in science and engineering: so we can spend 10 minutes with a napkin and a calculator and know what *not* to spend $3MM and ten years developing.
And just how badly do they want their solar roadways to work?And so is missed the entire point of having an education in science and engineering: so we can spend 10 minutes with a napkin and a calculator and know what *not* to spend $3MM and ten years developing.
But they're Americans! Americans can achieve anything if they just want it badly enough.
Several million $$$ of taxpayer money, that's how badly. That's what fuels their passion. It's the American dream!And just how badly do they want their solar roadways to work?And so is missed the entire point of having an education in science and engineering: so we can spend 10 minutes with a napkin and a calculator and know what *not* to spend $3MM and ten years developing.
But they're Americans! Americans can achieve anything if they just want it badly enough.
It looks like we have an answer to visibility of road markings question. Here is how that thing looks in a day light.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260038;image)
And why isn't the solar roadway not in the road but on the sidewalk? Has it become a solar sidewalk?
Besides that it isn't the first public solar roadway. There has been one in the Netherlands since 2014.
On this website ( https://www.tno.nl/nl/over-tno/nieuws/2015/12/solaroad-in-de-race-voor-europese-milieuprijs/ (https://www.tno.nl/nl/over-tno/nieuws/2015/12/solaroad-in-de-race-voor-europese-milieuprijs/) ) they are touting a whopping result of 70kWh per square meter. Not mentioning that that number is half of what you'd get when the panels are properly mounted on a roof.
And why isn't the solar roadway not in the road but on the sidewalk? Has it become a solar sidewalk?
Hold the presses!
There is a film coming:
http://www.solarroadwaysfilm.com/ (http://www.solarroadwaysfilm.com/)
Guess the plot ::)
This year, we began talks with a consortium in Utah (http://select.usu.edu/ (http://select.usu.edu/)) who are working on the technology for dynamic charging of EVs (charging while they drive). They tell us that if just interstates alone which account for 2% of roads offered this service, it would take care of 98% of the miles EVs travel.
But integrating such technology into a standard road would be difficult. Solar Roadways® panels create an electric road with the needed electricity and all of the cabling and connections to facilitate the implementation of this technology. Their mutual induction plates could be fitted right into a Solar Roadway®. To that end, we are looking for a shared grant to enable research and development of this collaboration. We’d like to create a shared demonstration at their ¼-mile track to show what the marriage of these two technologies would offer to the EV industry and of course… our fragile planet.
Did they switch it on? :-DDIt was on, but the only way it was visible is by changes on the stream compression quality around changing areas.
The MTBF is exceptional...
There appears to be 3 non working panels tonight.
(At least as far as the LEDs are concerned)
http://cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-7 (http://cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-7)
It also looks like individual LEDs are starting to fail as well as entire panels. I'm betting it's mostly defunct in a week.
The MTBF is exceptional...
There appears to be 3 non working panels tonight.
(At least as far as the LEDs are concerned)
http://cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-7 (http://cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-7)
Was it only the centre 12 that are supposed to be lit up? If so, then all working when I just looked.They just fixed them. But that's why we have screenshots. So web cam is a weak point of this scam.
The MTBF is exceptional...
There appears to be 3 non working panels tonight.
(At least as far as the LEDs are concerned)
http://cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-7 (http://cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-7)
Was it only the centre 12 that are supposed to be lit up? If so, then all working when I just looked.
The only panels that have ever worked are the center twelve. 18 of the panels were defective at the outset.Are they actual panels? I though it was a different color concrete.
The only panels that have ever worked are the center twelve. 18 of the panels were defective at the outset.Are they actual panels? I though it was a different color concrete.
This makes human behavior even more interesting, because most of the people stand next to the lit area, but apparently don't mind stepping on the same type of material without LEDs turned on.
The MTBF is exceptional...
There appears to be 3 non working panels tonight.
(At least as far as the LEDs are concerned)
http://cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-7 (http://cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-7)
Yup. Those panels are dropping like flies.
It also looks like individual LEDs are starting to fail as well as entire panels. I'm betting it's mostly defunct in a week.
Not that this will have any effect on the stream of grant money...
If they have good PR behind, that is one more reason to secure more money: it will be crucial to increase yield and reliability. Where does it end? At this point nobody knows for sure, but I suspect we are still far from the end of it.The MTBF is exceptional...
There appears to be 3 non working panels tonight.
(At least as far as the LEDs are concerned)
http://cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-7 (http://cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-7)
Yup. Those panels are dropping like flies.
It also looks like individual LEDs are starting to fail as well as entire panels. I'm betting it's mostly defunct in a week.
Not that this will have any effect on the stream of grant money...
The only panels that have ever worked are the center twelve. 18 of the panels were defective at the outset and have been used as a border.
It's neat to see "the real thing" despite this whole idea being absurd. They are also much thinner and look kinda "cheap" than I expected.
A panel issue seems more likely given the leads were intentionally cut off at the panels (as opposed to being wired in anyway for the system to fixed later).The only panels that have ever worked are the center twelve. 18 of the panels were defective at the outset and have been used as a border.
Wow, what a screwup.
I assume it was some sort of system issue though rather than 18 panels out of the 30 were delivered faulty?
IMHO it is time politicians should pass a math and physics test before being allowed to become part of the government.
Hold the presses!Maybe you will be featured... who's the best actor for a villain with an Australian accent?
There is a film coming:
http://www.solarroadwaysfilm.com/ (http://www.solarroadwaysfilm.com/)
Guess the plot ::)
It's neat to see "the real thing" despite this whole idea being absurd. They are also much thinner and look kinda "cheap" than I expected.
They are supposed to be their latest SR3 panels:
http://www.solarroadways.com/Home/SR3 (http://www.solarroadways.com/Home/SR3)
But yeah, look too flimsy to be used as road tiles. Their original ones were much thicker and were bolted down to a concrete slab.
Now that brings up an interesting point. Here in the US, this likely wouldn't be a problem since they already like to drag out road work projects as long as possible. Back in my youth, I did some road construction work (for a private company - I mostly was working with my neighbor, who owned a trucking company, but he occasionally helped out his father, who owned a construction company, so I got to experience such wonderful things as spraying hot tar on a day when it was 95F and 80% humidity - there wasn't a better motivator for studying hard so I could get accepted at a good university) and if we as a private company ever took as long as these government jobs, the company would have been out of business for lack of work. No one would hire us if we worked that slowly. For example, they spent TWO YEARS on a 2 mile stretch of 4 lane road here, and all that got accomplished was some cracked sections of concrete were replaced - they whole road never got resurfaced, and now after one winter freeze/thaw cycle, it's as bad as it was BEFORE they "fixed" it.Agree with most of what you say, all except the last bit. I think they got a lot of support from Crowdfunding too. So it seems lots of people want to throw money away on bullshit.
Which is another point - I don't think they care if these solar roadway blocks last 5 or 10 years. They'll make a bundle, at taxpayer expense, replacing defective ones every year. It's public money, it's effectively endless to these morons. When the first private company paves their parking lot with these things, using their own money, not taxpayer dollars, then maybe we'll see. But I don't see too many lining up to foolishly waste their money when for less cost they can cover the roof of their building AND get better power output AND not have to worry about what happens in their parking lot. Then the "green" politicians turn around and say see, the government MUST fund this stuff because no one will invest. Yes, because no one wants to throw away money on bullshit.
I'm no psychologist but it seems we humans just see what we want to see and disregard the rest.Is that called confirmation bias? Whatever it is called it is as prevalent here as it is anywhere.
I have squandered my resistance
For a pocketful of mumbles,
Such are promises
All lies and jest
Still, a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest.
Please just drive around the pole and onto the tiles ;D
It may be amusing to talk about, but I do hope no one considers or acts upon vandalizing the installation. It will be totally counterproductive at this point.Why would simply driving a lightweight vehicle over the tiles be vandalism? Its supposed to be a demo of a roadway, not a pedestrian pathway.
It's neat to see "the real thing" despite this whole idea being absurd. They are also much thinner and look kinda "cheap" than I expected.
They are supposed to be their latest SR3 panels:
http://www.solarroadways.com/Home/SR3 (http://www.solarroadways.com/Home/SR3)
But yeah, look too flimsy to be used as road tiles. Their original ones were much thicker and were bolted down to a concrete slab.
Why would simply driving a lightweight vehicle over the tiles be vandalism? Its supposed to be a demo of a roadway, not a pedestrian pathway.
It may be amusing to talk about, but I do hope no one considers or acts upon vandalizing the installation. It will be totally counterproductive at this point.Why would simply driving a lightweight vehicle over the tiles be vandalism? Its supposed to be a demo of a roadway, not a pedestrian pathway.
It may be amusing to talk about, but I do hope no one considers or acts upon vandalizing the installation. It will be totally counterproductive at this point.Why would simply driving a lightweight vehicle over the tiles be vandalism? Its supposed to be a demo of a roadway, not a pedestrian pathway.
As with every one of these types of projects, the goal posts were quietly moved to "electric disco sidewalk" while retaining the name "Solar Roadways."
LOL! Some kids trying to beat up the panels at night!its the peter brock polariser of our time, its just art. Installation art or a public play thing
LOL!
Some kids trying to beat up the panels at night!
https://twitter.com/ytgadgetaddict/status/783561463021436930/video/1
Some guy just came along and opened up the grey control box. He pulled a PC/keyboard/screen out and is doing some hacking.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260425;image)
And here is a solution for boosting energy output at night! :)That's called recycling, duh! ::)
As with every one of these types of projects, the goal posts were quietly moved to "electric disco sidewalk" while retaining the name "Solar Roadways."
Some guy just ran in out of nowhere and started jumping up and down on the road trying to smash it, with hacker guy sat in his car and the PC still on the floor.That was funny, here 3 more screenshots when the guy jumped.
I didn't capture the moment of glory but I promise it was funny as hell. I hope if somebody is recording this. :-DD :-DD
Comedy gold!
Some guy just ran in out of nowhere and started jumping up and down on the road trying to smash it, with hacker guy sat in his car a few meters away and the PC still on the floor.
I didn't capture the moment of glory but it was funny as hell. I hope somebody was recording it. :-DD :-DD
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260445;image)
Some guy just ran in out of nowhere and started jumping up and down on the road trying to smash itThat was funny, here 3 more screenshots when the guy jumped.
I didn't capture the moment of glory but I promise it was funny as hell. I hope somebody is recording this. :-DD :-DD
4 panels still down:
I love how he brought a full tower PC and monitor. Couldn't spend any of that cash on a laptop?
I love how he brought a full tower PC and monitor. Couldn't spend any of that cash on a laptop?Maybe it has a special interface card in it or something.
its a 2016 Dance Portal to a 1977 Disco but you must be wearing flare jeans & Playing Saturday Night Fever by the Bee Gees.
Some guy just came along and opened up the grey control box. He pulled a PC/keyboard/screen out and is doing some hacking.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260425;image)
That is the owner of Solar Roadways, Scott Brusaw.
Who'll get organized first, the flash-mob dancers or the vandals? :popcorn:
I didn't capture the moment of glory but it was funny as hell. I hope somebody was recording it. :-DD :-DD
Who'll get organized first, the flash-mob dancers or the vandals? :popcorn:
I recon if I did a video there would be enough viewers near enough to do flash mob ;D
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260468;image)
If you want an idea of Scott's personality type, it's right there...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260468;image)It helps to believe:
If you want an idea of Scott's personality type, it's right there...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260471;image)
If you want an idea of Scott's personality type, it's right there...
LOL!Some parenting needs to be done. I always tell my kids that breaking stuff is what utter morons do.
Some kids trying to beat up the panels at night!
https://twitter.com/ytgadgetaddict/status/783561463021436930/video/1
Some parenting needs to be done. I always tell my kids that breaking stuff is what utter morons do.
LOL!Some parenting needs to be done. I always tell my kids that breaking stuff is what utter morons do.
Some kids trying to beat up the panels at night!
https://twitter.com/ytgadgetaddict/status/783561463021436930/video/1
I hope somebody has a recording of today's attack. That guy didn't wander over to check out the pretty lights or anything like that. He literally ran into view just to jump on them as hard as he could. The only thing going through his mind was "I'm gonna smash this!"
I thought a big thing with these tiles was the ability to have them communicate and generate large scale pattern etc. But the animation on them seems to be totally independent per tile.
The leds are not visible during daylight. Surprise surprise!
My bet as to what might break a panel is a somewhat above average 9 even for the USA) woman, wearing a nice fashionable pair of narrow point stiletto heels and who walks across the panels while yakking on the phone. My bet is the heels will crack the glass on an edge, and the panel will shatter.
I think there must be some sort of data display in the green box. People keep on stopping to look at it.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260554;image)
My bet as to what might break a panel is a somewhat above average 9 even for the USA) woman, wearing a nice fashionable pair of narrow point stiletto heels and who walks across the panels while yakking on the phone. My bet is the heels will crack the glass on an edge, and the panel will shatter.
No, I think that is highly unlikely. The glass will be a lot stronger than that. There are many glass floors on skyscraper towers, etc. and they don't break... It is a question of when you get road debris, gravel, etc and then drive over it with a 5-ton (or even heavier) truck, do they hold up? What about a rock or other debris falling from a truck? Can they take the kind of constant pounding that a road (or even a pathway) get on a daily basis?
I think they would scuff and become rather opaque quite quickly even if they don't often shatter in real use.
Were will it stop ? At the airport ? The AIRPORT :)))))
I will not take a plane that has to land or take off on a glass runway.
I have set up a live stream mirror that basically transcodes to Youtube for archival purposes :popcorn:.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH1MQFyOnos&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH1MQFyOnos&feature=youtu.be)
Is that green box made from wood? Why didn't they use a proper monitor for outside use? :palm:
I think there must be some sort of data display in the green box. People keep on stopping to look at it.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260554;image)
That is the kiosk. It has a slide show that is duplicated on the City of Sandpoint website. It's simply an all in one PC in a box. No interactivity.
http://cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-7 (http://cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-7)
Scroll down to the "virtual kiosk." They are identical.
I hope somebody has a recording of today's attack. That guy didn't wander over to check out the pretty lights or anything like that. He literally ran into view just to jump on them as hard as he could. The only thing going through his mind was "I'm gonna smash this!"
Check my link above, someone on twitter captured video of teens trying to smash it with a skateboard.
My bet as to what might break a panel is a somewhat above average 9 even for the USA) woman, wearing a nice fashionable pair of narrow point stiletto heels and who walks across the panels while yakking on the phone. My bet is the heels will crack the glass on an edge, and the panel will shatter.
No, I think that is highly unlikely. The glass will be a lot stronger than that. There are many glass floors on skyscraper towers, etc. and they don't break... It is a question of when you get road debris, gravel, etc and then drive over it with a 5-ton (or even heavier) truck, do they hold up? What about a rock or other debris falling from a truck? Can they take the kind of constant pounding that a road (or even a pathway) get on a daily basis?
I think they would scuff and become rather opaque quite quickly even if they don't often shatter in real use.
Here is the current state of this abomination.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260586;image)
Yep, half another tile down, just fixed on several RED LED's on max brightness?
Yep, half another tile down, just fixed on several RED LED's on max brightness?
just got linked to something very similar in croatia, zadar :)
I havent heard of this before, but those guys did the same as the solar hobbiyst from blinking roadways :P
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBhk5KFwLVc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBhk5KFwLVc)
it begins at Minute 1 to show how this works.
Looks slightly advanced in comparison to the roadways, oh but yes I forgot, those modules at zadar are not in the road... :)
just got linked to something very similar in croatia, zadar :)I don't think Zadar is in any way comparable to the solar roadway work. Zadar is an artwork. It has no need to meet economic or efficiency goals. If the group of solar roadway tiles installed so far were installed as an artwork, it would probably succeed as a fun light display. However, it isn't supposed to be an artwork. Its supposed to be a scalable, affordable, futuristic road + energy source.
I havent heard of this before, but those guys did the same as the solar hobbiyst from blinking roadways :P
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBhk5KFwLVc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBhk5KFwLVc)
it begins at Minute 1 to show how this works.
Looks slightly advanced in comparison to the roadways, oh but yes I forgot, those modules at zadar are not in the road... :)
As promised, the "repair" by a member of the public, as spotted by Fungus:
As promised, the "repair" by a member of the public, as spotted by Fungus:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG__xuaQ5Yw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG__xuaQ5Yw)
But lets be honest, does anyone in here believe that first public test is anything else, than a road heater with lightning?It is fine when first test don't have the efficiency of the final product, but first samples should not self destruct on a regular basis under normal use. This stuff is possible to figure out in a private test - just put this BS in front of the office entrance and see how they hold up over time. But that does not achieve main goal - scamming public out of money.
But lets be honest, does anyone in here believe that first public test is anything else, than a road heater with lightning?:clap: its outside the Sandpoint public toilets.
:clap: its outside the Sandpoint public toilets.
Why the lame arse full colour patterns on the panels?
Why can't they have "Solar Roadways" scrolling or something?
It's not even a half impressive LED demo :--
Why the lame arse full colour patterns on the panels?
Why can't they have "Solar Roadways" scrolling or something?
It's not even a half impressive LED demo :--
When he rebooted the panels at midnight*, they were in lock-step for a little while, but then started falling out of sync. So they're actually individually going through the same fixed loop/routine, but evidently their clocks aren't synced. In other words, yes, it's about the lamest possible implementation, no randomisation, nor any communication between panels at all (except for cutting power :P)...
Why the lame arse full colour patterns on the panels?
Why can't they have "Solar Roadways" scrolling or something?
It's not even a half impressive LED demo :--
What's interesting is that 100% of the panels will have to be replaced at this point in order to have a functional system that meets the solar road definition. What is installed represents all of the assembled PCBs Solar Roadways has, so more will need to be ordered. I'm guessing at such low volume that each tile must be around $500 each in actual costs. The glass is custom made and CNC milled at SR's facility.
So, somebody is likely going to go another $15K out of pocket if this system is going to even remotely be functional. Winter is coming rapidly and there is the promise of a "snow and ice free" surface to meet. Sandpoint is a winter resort destination, so expect the system to get a lot of visibility.
And with likely lead times running at least 6-8 weeks, the system will likely be repaired no sooner than Christmas time.
Millions go quick when you're buying capital equipment to do manufacturing. SR bought a very spendy German mill designed for glass milling as well as a large vacuum chamber for curing the panels. There are a few full-time staff members which burn cash reserves as well.The solution is - sell this equipment at a discounted price to people who can load it 100% and get their money back. After that find a company that will cut the glass for you. This is a relatively straightforward and cheap process.
Millions go quick when you're buying capital equipment to do manufacturing. SR bought a very spendy German mill designed for glass milling as well as a large vacuum chamber for curing the panels. There are a few full-time staff members which burn cash reserves as well.The solution is - sell this equipment at a discounted price to people who can load it 100% and get their money back. After that find a company that will cut the glass for you. This is a relatively straightforward and cheap process.
You really need to be stupid to buy capital equipment like this. It is like being an electronics startup and buying your own wet etching lines to make PCBs.
You really need to be stupid to buy capital equipment like this. It is like being an electronics startup and buying your own wet etching lines to make PCBs.
I do not disagree, but that's what's happened/happening.
Mike could get a well paying consultancy gig from them. This is obviously more of an artwork than a roadway or foot path. It has the appearance of their first attempt to actually produce a tile. With not even basic reliability testing for a few days done at their factory/warehouse.
I can't help wondering why they have cut off all the extra wires to each tile, left as is they will wick in water to the electronics. Are the extra wires for the led control data! Only single RGB colour per tile, where are road markings! individually addressable leds are not rocket science these days.
Not exactly generating electric power, melting snow and what not, but somewhat practical if it works. Doesn't say what it does to the environment over time...
...
THE SCIENCE IS NEVER SETTLED ON ANYTHING!!!!!
THE SCIENCE IS NEVER SETTLED ON ANYTHING!!!!!
Winter is coming...
Winter is coming...
:-DD
THE SCIENCE IS NEVER SETTLED ON ANYTHING!!!!!
Let's not derail this with a global warming debate, please.
THE SCIENCE IS NEVER SETTLED ON ANYTHING!!!!!
Let's not derail this with a global warming debate, please.
My main point was NOT global warming. It was that stupid ideas like solar roadways are only even considered because of bullshit salesmen. 'Act now!' and 'The science is settled!' are both bullshit tactics, if you see them used as arguments for any product or idea you can bet it is bullshit.
Winter is coming...
Let there be no doubt that Scott Brusaw is a great salesman and marketing genius. And I mean that with all sincerity. I never would have thought to execute this the way he has, and that it would be so well received.
I'm sure a snow plow would wreck havoc on these the first few times it passes
I think if all you want to do with these is power the leds, if done right it could very well work strictly off solar and would perhaps be usable in places that get foot traffic only, and that you don't care about in winter. Basically walking trails and stuff.
TBH I was actually expecting more from these, they are actually worse than I expected. I knew they were generally not viable, but I get the impression these are absolutely not generating any net positive energy at all and not to mention that half of them arn't even working at all. Their confidence can be dictated by looking at all those AC-DC power supplies they put in that cabinet. :-DD
You'd think that the #1 requirement for demonstrating solar roadways would be the net power it generates?
Why isn't there a big net kWh display?
This has to be deliberate, just like the lack of any data on their website after all these years.
A simple question about the roadway melting the snow. Blacktop on a road is a nearly perfect black body absorber ( well, about the best you can get in mass quantity), yet a roadway will still get a snow cover that will not melt with the sunlight, even if you scrape it off with a plow, so how can a solar panel under the road melt the snow.
A simple question about the roadway melting the snow. Blacktop on a road is a nearly perfect black body absorber ( well, about the best you can get in mass quantity), yet a roadway will still get a snow cover that will not melt with the sunlight, even if you scrape it off with a plow, so how can a solar panel under the road melt the snow. If you use grid power to do so then you would have had a simple resistive mat in a regular road decades ago instead of a expensive to operate snow plow and the toxic and corrosive salt used on roads.
There are houses with heated driveways, but ask the owner just how much using that option adds to the electric bill for the house, and scale that up for the power required in a typical suburb that you would have to add to the supply calculations, and how much the extra transformers, power controllers and bulk electric power you would use over a typical season. Then ask how much power the solar panels would generate over that winter season.
People underestimate the amount of energy you need to melt snow/iceuse methane gas from Sandpoint's public toilets :-DD
As of right now, Solar Roadways continues to tweet nonsense and links to articles about how this system generates power, so I hope they're ready to prove it.
I just found the live stream. Only 7 or 8 panels left and one of them looks dodgy. How long has it been since they were all working originally?
Don't forget that many vehicles including heavy haulage trucks require chains to be fitted in icy conditions, have they even bothered to test the effect these have on panels that may become brittle when the temperature drops ?.
* There needs to be a controlled test of snow/ice melting by the panels. Ask the boss of Solar Panels how much energy it takes to melt a couple of inches of snow, if he lies then you've got him. Snow/ice melting needs to be demonstrated before any funding can be approved.
Hey,
Just spotted a working "solar roadway"
https://techcrunch.com/2016/10/07/poland-builds-a-solar-powered-bike-path-that-glows-a-ghostly-blue/
Hey,
Just spotted a working "solar roadway"
https://techcrunch.com/2016/10/07/poland-builds-a-solar-powered-bike-path-that-glows-a-ghostly-blue/
I'd call that a "Glow-in-the-Dark" roadway. While it is of limited value, it's a cool effect - and no doubt much, much cheaper.
QuotePeople underestimate the amount of energy you need to melt snow/iceuse methane gas from Sandpoint's public toilets :-DD
Diesel engines or gas turbines are run from self generated methane in sewage works all over the world. The major part of a sewage works is dedicated to digesting and removing the content of the water. This results in large amounts of methane. You will see large gas domes in most works, buffering between the gas generation and consumption functions.QuotePeople underestimate the amount of energy you need to melt snow/iceuse methane gas from Sandpoint's public toilets :-DD
Many years ago,I read in an "English Electric" company newsletter that the Metropoitan Sewage & Drainage Dept in Perth WA were running EE Diesel engines off Sewage gases to drive pumps,etc,making them independent of the Electricity Mains.
Apparently,they started on Diesel fuel then as soon as they were running,swapped over to Sewage gas.
No,I don't know how it was done,but they were not a company with as great sense of humour,nor was it April! ;D
Hey,
Just spotted a working "solar roadway"
https://techcrunch.com/2016/10/07/poland-builds-a-solar-powered-bike-path-that-glows-a-ghostly-blue/
Is it me, the photo, or do they have some serious engineering issues with their edge plates.
Is it me, the photo, or do they have some serious engineering issues with their edge plates.
Also, I cannot see a lot of anti-skid texture in that close up.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=261719;image)
There is no rigidity in the joiner plates. They are simply flat sheet aluminum with rivnuts on one side and a screw through the other. It was inevitable that they would bend as soon as the panels shifted under load.
From the Sandpoint City budget...
http://cityofsandpoint.com/home/showdocument?id=3766 (http://cityofsandpoint.com/home/showdocument?id=3766)
Page 14
:o
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=261727;image)
I would have thought that after the millions of dollars of research money they have burned they would have engineered something a lot better.They actually had a better design, where edges were made of angle iron with lower part of the "L" below the surface, so you get tiles next to each other, separated only by two widths of the angle iron and the whole tile suspended in a rigid frame. But I presume that was prohibitively expensive to manufacture.
From the Sandpoint City budget...
http://cityofsandpoint.com/home/showdocument?id=3766 (http://cityofsandpoint.com/home/showdocument?id=3766)
Page 14
:o
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=261727;image)
$500k! :palm:
Is it me, the photo, or do they have some serious engineering issues with their edge plates.Whenever there were peope on the live feed while it was raining, everybody carefully tested the tiles if they are slippery before walking over that area. So most people except them to be really slippery.
Also, I cannot see a lot of anti-skid texture in that close up.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=261719;image)
I was waiting until they released some power generation numbers before I did a video on this, but turns out Thunderf00t captured a tweet (now deleted?) where they admit it's not producing any power at all :palm
“We completed the installation at 5 a.m. Sunday morning,” Scott Brusaw said. “All the installation does at the moment is provide a light show. The solar cells and the heating elements are unusable in their current state.”
All the installation does at the moment is provide a light showNot really, it does not even provide a good light show.
QuoteAll the installation does at the moment is provide a light showNot really, it does not even provide a good light show.
The naysayers are of course trying to “spin” a narrative that we are having problems in all areas, rather than everything stemming from a problem with one piece of equipment. We haven’t begun to show you what the panels can do. We just had time to very quickly throw up some LED patterns and they are on a low setting which is why it’s hard to see them on the webcam in the daytime. The naysayers are really having a field day with that one, but we’ll set things straight soon enough!
12 days after the rollout date, after essentially declaring victory and failing to correct dozens of fawning reports on how the pilot test is generating power, Solar Roadways admits the pilot rollout is a failure:
http://www.bonnercountydailybee.com/local_news/20161007/sr_pilot_on_track_despite_challenges (http://www.bonnercountydailybee.com/local_news/20161007/sr_pilot_on_track_despite_challenges)
When making your decision just decide on where the value of a video is. Is it good for you and the viewcounts of the EEVBlog? The more rabid it is the better I imagine. Guided by the posts in this thread you should have no difficulty deciding what your audience want.
lol this is really bad, and it's not even cold enough for frost heave yet! Technically you almost need a concrete footing under these.
lol this is really bad, and it's not even cold enough for frost heave yet! Technically you almost need a concrete footing under these.
Their original installation was vastly more impressive than this new one. It had a concrete base and side concrete pits for the wiring and inverters and controllers and drainage etc. Panels looked much more robust and were bolted into steel bolts embedded in the concrete.
Now they just have these flimsy panels sitting on compacted sand on top of a drop sheet with no drainage :palm:
WTF happened? It's as if they have gone back in progress not forward?
Probably since it is a temporary installation there were local Guvmint restrictions on what they could do, since it may have to be returned to its original state after the trial.Yeah, that's a perfect way out. It is not our product that sucks, it is all government fault. Give us more money :)
lol this is really bad, and it's not even cold enough for frost heave yet! Technically you almost need a concrete footing under these.
Their original installation was vastly more impressive than this new one. It had a concrete base and side concrete pits for the wiring and inverters and controllers and drainage etc. Panels looked much more robust and were bolted into steel bolts embedded in the concrete.
Now they just have these flimsy panels sitting on compacted sand on top of a drop sheet with no drainage :palm:
WTF happened? It's as if they have gone back in progress not forward?
I was going to do a video today laughing at the hilarity of this install. In light of this link with them admitting it went ahead knowing full well it would not produce any power and most panels faulty, should I still do the video? as I might have to do another one in the next few weeks when they have working panels installed.
Let's hope they don't catch fire once the water seeps in.Well, that would have the panel producing some energy. :)
But the original ones had to stand up to the weight of a small tractor parking on it. These new ones, just a teenager jumping up and down. :-DD
Could the reason they had no actual data before be because those prototype ones they set up outside their facility and parked the tractor on ALSO didn't actual work?
All that money, blown on manufacturing equipment and yet they still cannot manufacture much of anything, on TOP of all the science that says this is just bullshit. Love it. :popcorn:
And as for everyone knowing that 2/3's of the panels LED's were faulty, and not a single one could produce any power, knowing this just before the install and then making the decision to go ahead with it anyway? Crazy, and a waste of public and investor money. They deserve any criticism they get for this botched install.
From The SolarRoadways blog, 11 October:QuoteWe haven’t begun to show you what the panels can do. We just had time to very quickly throw up some LED patterns and they are on a low setting which is why it’s hard to see them on the webcam in the daytime.
Did they turn up with a load of faulty panels and decide to put the non-working ones around the outside as if that was intentional.
All 30 panels — the LEDs, heaters and solar cells — had been tested and worked.
What they hadn’t counted on was the lamination — the last step in the manufacturing process — taking so long. The process, which hermetically seals the panels so they are weatherproof, normally takes six hours and is done under extreme vacuum to remove all air bubbles.
Thursday, the Brusaws and the rest of the Solar Roadways team stayed up all night taping the panels for lamination, then loaded the oven and began the lamination process at 5 a.m. With a press conference set for 1 p.m. and the “big reveal” in the town square set for 3 p.m., the couple said they knew there was little chance of them making the deadline.
“When the panels were finally removed from the oven, many of the internal circuit boards had been pulled apart,” he said. “Many of the components were crushed, bent or broken. Of the 30 panels, less than half of them still had LED functionality and only five of those could still produce any power.”
The part I really don't understand about this whole fiasco is the "building them the night before" part.
This was in thw works for HOW LONG and they were still just building the panels the day they were supposed to be revealed?!
They knew this was going to be a public demo yet they went ahead on this schedule without any working prototypes to demonstrate? :wtf:
How does that make any sense?
That's just pure insanity!!
From today's blog (http://www.solarroadways.com/Blog/Blog):
Meanwhile, we hope you all are enjoying the partially working panels in person or with the webcam. The naysayers are of course trying to “spin” a narrative that we are having problems in all areas, rather than everything stemming from a problem with one piece of equipment. We haven’t begun to show you what the panels can do. We just had time to very quickly throw up some LED patterns and they are on a low setting which is why it’s hard to see them on the webcam in the daytime. The naysayers are really having a field day with that one, but we’ll set things straight soon enough!
but we’ll set things straight soon enough!We just need a bit more time until next government check clears :).
It's worse, they also wrote the blinky demo the night before, as if they never had it already :palm:
Quote... on a low setting which is why it’s hard to see them on the webcam in the daytime.Err, why not just up the LED brightness? What's the problem there? It can't be the lamination issue.
From today's blog (http://www.solarroadways.com/Blog/Blog):QuoteMeanwhile, we hope you all are enjoying the partially working panels in person or with the webcam. The naysayers are of course trying to “spin” a narrative that we are having problems in all areas, rather than everything stemming from a problem with one piece of equipment. We haven’t begun to show you what the panels can do. We just had time to very quickly throw up some LED patterns and they are on a low setting which is why it’s hard to see them on the webcam in the daytime. The naysayers are really having a field day with that one, but we’ll set things straight soon enough!
Err, why not just up the LED brightness? What's the problem there? It can't be the lamination issue.
We just got our first frost this week. We have a warm front for the next few days. Then .... the City of Sandpoint will have to start putting a barricade around their ice-covered, electric disco floor, lest someone going to the loo take a header and break something.
We just got our first frost this week. We have a warm front for the next few days. Then .... the City of Sandpoint will have to start putting a barricade around their ice-covered, electric disco floor, lest someone going to the loo take a header and break something.
That would be somewhat of a major fail, wouldn't it?
They obviously have some issue preventing full brightness being used.It may be overwhelmingly bright when its dark outside. I don't know if they have light sensors. You would thing they have, but then again, you would also think they should give up.
He seems to be right about the LED's not being set to full brightness, just look at this stuck LED:Trouble is it is a very overcast day.
Imagine if you have a big complex high speed multi-lane interconnect with LED lane markers and all of a sudden the road markings go crazy do to a computer glitch in peak hour.
Imagine if you have a big complex high speed multi-lane interconnect with LED lane markers and all of a sudden the road markings go crazy do to a computer glitch in peak hour.
What are the odds of that, given this guy's engineering track record?
Imagine if you have a big complex high speed multi-lane interconnect with LED lane markers and all of a sudden the road markings go crazy due to a computer glitch in peak hour.
Imagine if you have a big complex high speed multi-lane interconnect with LED lane markers and all of a sudden the road markings go crazy due to a computer glitch in peak hour.Just Imagine if your a council road maintenance worker. But with Solar Roadways, now you must be a qualified electronics technician, or your out of a Job!
QuoteImagine if you have a big complex high speed multi-lane interconnect with LED lane markers and all of a sudden the road markings go crazy due to a computer glitch in peak hour.Just Imagine if your a council road maintenance worker. But with Solar Roadways, now you must be a qualified electronics technician, or your out of a Job!
The traditional painted lanes do some really cool things - they change brightness automatically with the applied light. They do not disappear or go crazy when there is a computer fault or a power failure. You can add various sorts of rumble strip solutions so you can hear and feel when you are drifting out of a lane or off the road.
Imagine if you have a big complex high speed multi-lane interconnect with LED lane markers and all of a sudden the road markings go crazy due to a computer glitch in peak hour.
He seems to be right about the LED's not being set to full brightness, just look at this stuck LED:
(http://i.imgur.com/GtwgzHA.png)
Oops, the page you are looking for may have been removed, renamed, entered wrong or is temporarily unavailable!
Just consider the surface. Either the original studded one or this new smoother one with edge join cover strips screwed down. No-one will tolerate the vibration that will result or the tire noise generated. Right from the start that alone suggested to me this was never going to be an actual road surface.
It may have some niche use in car-parks or shopping centers or remote tourist locations where vehicle volumes and speeds are not very high.
Just for your amusement here is an example of my local council and their environmental awareness. Outside the entrance to my local library they have installed a solar powered rubbish bin (trashcan for our American friends). It just goes to show how this sort of thing is universal. The actual bin is not the main problem, it is that they installed it on the shaded side of a covered walkway, under a tree, next to a wall that will shade it after about 1 pm. I took these photos shortly before noon just as the sun fell on it for the first time in the day. And the sloping solar panel on the top faces the wall.
I should have included a photo of the solar panel on the top of the parking ticket machine in the underground carpark at my local supermarket.
Outside the entrance to my local library they have installed a solar powered rubbish bin (trashcan for our American friends). It just goes to show how this sort of thing is universal. The actual bin is not the main problem, it is that they installed it on the shaded side of a covered walkway, under a tree
I should have included a photo of the solar panel on the top of the parking ticket machine in the underground carpark at my local supermarket.
Outside the entrance to my local library they have installed a solar powered rubbish bin (trashcan for our American friends). It just goes to show how this sort of thing is universal. The actual bin is not the main problem, it is that they installed it on the shaded side of a covered walkway, under a tree
What exactly is is supposed to be powering? Are there any lights on it or cables coming out the bottom? :-//I should have included a photo of the solar panel on the top of the parking ticket machine in the underground carpark at my local supermarket.
I bet they're rainproof, too.
It's understandable that manufacturers make one universal machine to be used both indoors and outdoors. The savings in paperwork and ordering/installation mistakes will probably pay for a few useless solar panels.
What exactly is is supposed to be powering? Are there any lights on it or cables coming out the bottom? :-//
Don't forget that many vehicles including heavy haulage trucks require chains to be fitted in icy conditions, have they even bothered to test the effect these have on panels that may become brittle when the temperature drops ?.
After all these years they haven't even driven a regular car over them. Only thing they have driven on them is a <1 ton tractor with huge weight distributing wheels.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKO-sDdJzTw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKO-sDdJzTw)
And where is the solar output data from that big test system? :-//
What exactly is is supposed to be powering? Are there any lights on it or cables coming out the bottom? :-//
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=262475;image)
Have you tried switching it off and on again...
Gaaa stupid forum and it's max 2MB limit for photo attachment, even Twitter's not that horrible, then blocking me for trying to post again in 60 seconds when I remove an image to fit the requirements. I feel a Dave rant coming on... :palm:
Another video.
I didn't want to create a new thread
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtkbioiQHmA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtkbioiQHmA)
Is it just me, or where the first "you are only a hater" comments written bevore they could have seen the video in full lengh?
I was coincidentally at the PC when the new video message was comeing in and watched the video view seconds later.
I get email notification of new Youtube videos two days or so after I've watched them here on the Forum.I wrote my own notification-program.
Unless you get notification some other way, there's been a lot of time for watching before the email.
I get email notification of new Youtube videos two days or so after I've watched them here on the Forum.
Solar roadways are still in circulation? Strange. I wonder why absolutely no authority checked these things... It's a scam after all...
Is it just me, or where the first "you are only a hater" comments written bevore they could have seen the video in full lengh?
Are this fanboys patreons of Dave to see the video early or are they hater them selfe?
52.397kWh @ 16:32
Now there's something that I don't understand. Clearly the best scenario would be to install them on rooftops, but doesn't that open a can of worms? Wouldn't each building owner have to agree on having public panels (that add to the local infrastructure) on their building's rooftop?
52.397kWh @ 16:32
Oh my... Just over 52 kWh for 4 panels in 6 months...
Let's check the economics compared to traditional generation. The electricity rate here in Calgary on my last bill (in Canadian dollars) was $0.0330430 per kWh. So those four panels generated a whopping $1.73 worth of electricity in six months.
That doesn't seem to be terribly competitive... Those panels cost HOW MUCH?!! :palm:
That doesn't seem to be terribly competitive... Those panels cost HOW MUCH?!! :palm:
Laminating of PCB's isn't the same like laminating a sheet of paper.
Think of it as "fill everything with potting compound."
But there is a little trap:
Some of the compound gets really hot.
Like damage the IC / LED's hot.
Some of them shrink & sheer of the components
Some of them dissolve the copper and other components.
(I found that out after building my own LED-bulb with screw-socket 15 years ago. Using silicone that contains vinegar was no good decision)
Another Problem is trapped air.
If you don't use a vacuum chamber during the laminating, you'll get air bubbles like shown in the video.
Normally they don't get that big. Even when you don't use a vacuum chamber. I don't knew how they manage to get this big air bubbles.
Now there's something that I don't understand. Clearly the best scenario would be to install them on rooftops, but doesn't that open a can of worms? Wouldn't each building owner have to agree on having public panels (that add to the local infrastructure) on their building's rooftop? Looking at it from that perspective it kind of make more sense to use the large space that is available as public roads vs the one that you have to get loads of paperwork for, and may never be able to do on certain buildings. The roof space is more limited than the roads around the city as well.
It's just a thought and I'd love some input.
Then if if you are doing it for the community good and the government doesn't want to own the solar infrastructure then you simply offer incentives (feed in tarrifs etc) for owners to install systems. They did this here in Oz and offered 60c feed-in tarrif and the country went nuts, the plan was oversubscribed many times over. Because of that over 15% or something of oz houses now have solar power.I'm not sure, if you are saying it as a bad thing? Some people are against government incentives, saying that otherwise solar would not be viable, and it is a bad way to spend money...
There's still no explanation for why Scott went there at 2am, took some readings by waving a gadget around above the panels, then decided to switch off four panels that were flashing their LEDs perfectly.
I guess I don't want to believe that there are people so incompetent deciding on funding this kind of crap. Aren't there some kind of laws that require the projected to be ok-ed by a neutral EE or something like that?
Less than $0.04 per kWh?
How do I move to Canada??
Here in overpriced, under reliable South Australia (the Blackout State) were paying $0.30 per kWh.
That's the price of subsidised green power for you....
$2000 depending upon who you ask :-DD
this is getting far from ridiculus :palm: It's a scam. Is it possible that NO public authority in the US recognizes that?
this is getting far from ridiculus :palm: It's a scam. Is it possible that NO public authority in the US recognizes that?
Solar roadways are still in circulation? Strange. I wonder why absolutely no authority checked these things... It's a scam after all...
Because the government , MDOT in this case, have a road technology initiative they have achieve. Projects like this look good on their books, no one checks for validity.
They really are so clueless that they think there isn't any research on flat vs tilted solar panels! :palm:
Their Facebook page seems to be a treasure trove of stupidity!
*52.397kWh @ 16:32
Did they really laminate assembled PCB's and then be amazed they are almost all broken?
Like.. you're putting the whole stack through a freaking roller press. Didn't they use a pressure mold or something to distribute the pressure? :=\
Their "step backwards" in engineering results suggest to me they maybe had some HR crisis and lost knowledge/IP as the result of that.
Why would the output be a simple cosine function? Are you confusing output with insolation?They really are so clueless that they think there isn't any research on flat vs tilted solar panels! :palm:
Their Facebook page seems to be a treasure trove of stupidity!
Isn't it just a simple cosine function, no "data collection" needed?
You have to pay for it
Page 18 of this document gives output figures for PV panels at different angles, including horizontal for Ireland.
http://www.seai.ie/Publications/Renewables_Publications_/Solar_Power/Best_Practice_Guide_for_PV.pdf (http://www.seai.ie/Publications/Renewables_Publications_/Solar_Power/Best_Practice_Guide_for_PV.pdf)
Why would the output be a simple cosine function? Are you confusing output with insolation?They really are so clueless that they think there isn't any research on flat vs tilted solar panels! :palm:
Their Facebook page seems to be a treasure trove of stupidity!
Isn't it just a simple cosine function, no "data collection" needed?
Still looks like theoretical data someone could put together at any time:Page 18 of this document gives output figures for PV panels at different angles, including horizontal for Ireland.
http://www.seai.ie/Publications/Renewables_Publications_/Solar_Power/Best_Practice_Guide_for_PV.pdf (http://www.seai.ie/Publications/Renewables_Publications_/Solar_Power/Best_Practice_Guide_for_PV.pdf)
Wow!
All that free data and Solar Sidewalks still think they need to pour money into their own research.
Thanks for the link BTW.
May be SR should start investigating invisible hover cars to increase panel efficiency (no cars shadows) and prevent panel damage.
Solar Roadways: Yeah, Still Not A Thing
A real PR and marketing firm could have advised Solar Roadways not to put a dog in a photo with their unproven technology. It was destined to make editors' jobs too easy.
Remember JaMarcus Russell? Former Louisiana State University quarterback who could throw the ball from one end zone to the other from his knees? Drafted No. 1 by the Oakland Raiders in 2007 and out of football three years later because, well, he really wasn’t that good?
Russell came to mind when I heard about the epic fail of the Solar Roadways unveiling in Sandpoint, Idaho, two weeks ago. The lesson from both is this: Don’t always believe the hype you’re hearing.
In 2014 and 2015, everyone was buzzing about the potential of Solar Roadways (and I do mean everyone). Slick marketing videos, combined with an almost unheard of (in the solar industry) social media blitz, had even the most uninitiated solar enthusiast convinced that solar roadways would power our futures.
Who knew the “breakthrough” technology could be foiled by a poor laminating machine? And once they’d “fixed” that problem, the flipped switch produced a light display that can only be described as Charlie Brown’s Christmas tree, pre-renovation.
So how do you spend two years hyping a product, only to have an unveiling that fails as badly as Solar Roadways? According to Leah Wilkinson, founder of Wilkinson + Associates, an Arlington, Va., based public relations and marketing firm with technology and solar specializations, there is often an extraordinary desire— and almost visceral need — for technology inventors and entrepreneurs to talk about their new product/service, how fantastic it is and all the problems it is going to solve.
“On one hand, it is great to have an organization or a spokesperson that is passionate and ready to share their technology with the world,” Wilkinson says. “On the other hand, it’s very risky to ‘launch’ and be so vocal about a product or service before it is tested and available, from a marketing and PR perspective.”
And when overeager inventors start believing their own “champagne wishes and caviar dreams,” they can rush into unveiling their product and, as the Solar Roadways team found out the hard way, become the punchline to a searingly bad joke.
“You lose credibility — your company, your team, your investors, your customers and the public no longer trust in your word and your ability to deliver,” Wilkinson said. “Recapturing trust and credibility is one of the hardest hills to climb for an organization. This event is a great case study for why it is critically important to have seasoned communications professionals advising you.”
Can Solar Roadways recover from its recent launch fiasco? Only time will tell (but given what little I’ve seen from the technology, I have serious doubts). But the “Shambles in Sandpoint” won’t quickly fade from the public’s memory.
What’s most maddening is that the solar industry is at a critical tipping point in the minds of most consumers — and it didn’t need this overhyped, undertested pipe dream to embolden solar’s opponents to shade the industry with even sharper tongues.
Let’s hope Solar Roadways returns to the inventor’s shed until it can prove it’s actually worthy of the spotlight. As JaMarcus Russell will tell you, only tragedy can follow if it doesn’t.
The views and opinions expressed in this article are the author’s own, and do not necessarily reflect those held by pv magazine.
The French Wattway update:
http://www.techniques-ingenieur.fr/actualite/articles/2000-euros-route-solaire-normandie-segolene-royal-37483/ (http://www.techniques-ingenieur.fr/actualite/articles/2000-euros-route-solaire-normandie-segolene-royal-37483/)
The French Wattway update:So the cost is around twenty times that of standard solar solutions, per watt. Despite the fact that this is not a small demonstration but a large project of over a kilometre.
http://www.techniques-ingenieur.fr/actualite/articles/2000-euros-route-solaire-normandie-segolene-royal-37483/ (http://www.techniques-ingenieur.fr/actualite/articles/2000-euros-route-solaire-normandie-segolene-royal-37483/)
And despite all this "The Energy Minister (Ségolène Royal) said repeatedly she wants 1,000 kilometres of solar road, which will cost 5 billion Euros on the basis of the project cost in the Orne.
Yes but that's only the startup costs. After that it's basically just free electricity forever.:palm: Free-ish. Add to that: Maintenance, replacement.
QuoteYes but that's only the startup costs. After that it's basically just free electricity forever.:palm: Free-ish. Add to that: Maintenance, replacement.
Also, if it's ~20 times more costly than a conventional solar solution of equivalent power, wouldn't it just be better to just build 20 times more solar power off road?
QuoteYes but that's only the startup costs. After that it's basically just free electricity forever.:palm: Free-ish. Add to that: Maintenance, replacement.
Also, if it's ~20 times more costly than a conventional solar solution of equivalent power, wouldn't it just be better to just build 20 times more solar power off road?
Maybe they're building it ... to show the world that the French are rich andFTFYpowerfulstupid.
Everybody who drives through France will see this andmarvel:palm:. That won't happen with conventional solar.
Ah - but the REAL proponents are the government and their cronies. Why spend that money on 20x the actual solar installations when you can skim 50% off the top and benefit you and your cronies and build a useless but feel good solar roadway? Too cynical? But how else do you explain this huge disconnect? 20x the cost even if you ignore the science and say it is otherwise equal in all ways - no one can be this blind, it HAS to be deliberate.
And despite all this "The Energy Minister (Ségolène Royal) said repeatedly she wants 1,000 kilometres of solar road, which will cost 5 billion Euros on the basis of the project cost in the Orne.Yes but that's only the startup costs. After that it's basically just free electricity forever.
Is it my imagination or is it always raining in Sandpoint. That webcam looks like a Ridley Scott movie. :)
For the previous video I tried to find if there were any links between the French minister and Colas in some way. Donations, family ties etc, but if was hard not speaking French.Colas is massive and this is a practical way for the french government to help its industries. They've just ordered new high speed trains to help Alstom too. It's usual, it avoids hearing Europe whine about preferential treatments for national companies and it looks better in the medias than "Colas to end 3000 jobs : government to intervene by donating 2B".
Ah - but the REAL proponents are the government and their cronies. Why spend that money on 20x the actual solar installations when you can skim 50% off the top and benefit you and your cronies and build a useless but feel good solar roadway? Too cynical? But how else do you explain this huge disconnect? 20x the cost even if you ignore the science and say it is otherwise equal in all ways - no one can be this blind, it HAS to be deliberate.
For the previous video I tried to find if there were any links between the French minister and Colas in some way. Donations, family ties etc, but if was hard not speaking French.
the new panels are comming:
http://www.sandpointidaho.gov/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-1 (http://www.sandpointidaho.gov/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-1)
currently under construction!
The Solar Roadways Live Cam is temporarily unavailable while the site is under construction. The SR3 panels are being replaced with the newest SR3.1 panels. We are also upgrading our Internet connection which will provide you with an enhanced viewing experience.
the new panels are comming:
http://www.sandpointidaho.gov/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-1 (http://www.sandpointidaho.gov/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-1)
currently under construction!
Or, perhaps the City of Sandpoint has grown weary of broadcasting public humiliation around the world.
I don't see how it reflects poorly on the city of Sandpoint. People all over the world know the City now. Including me. It looks like a perfectly nice place from the reading I did. And I did find out a little bit about the place as a direct result of the solar roadways experiment. Publicity gold.
Plenty of worse ways american towns get publicity in Australia. No-one has died for a start.
Or, perhaps the City of Sandpoint has grown weary of broadcasting public humiliation around the world.I don't see how it reflects poorly on the city of Sandpoint. People all over the world know the City now. Including me. It looks like a perfectly nice place from the reading I did. And I did find out a little bit about the place as a direct result of the solar roadways experiment. Publicity gold.
Plenty of worse ways american towns get publicity in Australia. No-one has died for a start.
From my still-running video recording, just now (and yes, I have a recording of all the work leading up to this state):
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=271060;image)
From my still-running video recording, just now (and yes, I have a recording of all the work leading up to this state):
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=271060;image)
That is a huge improvement. Solar generation is unchanged (still zero), but mains power consumption has been reduced massively.
That is a huge improvement. Solar generation is unchanged (still zero), but mains power consumption has been reduced massively.
Or, perhaps the City of Sandpoint has grown weary of broadcasting public humiliation around the world.I don't see how it reflects poorly on the city of Sandpoint. People all over the world know the City now. Including me. It looks like a perfectly nice place from the reading I did. And I did find out a little bit about the place as a direct result of the solar roadways experiment. Publicity gold.
Plenty of worse ways american towns get publicity in Australia. No-one has died for a start.
Yup. Between mine and Thudef00t's videos the town's name got exposed to half a million people maybe?
@Andy / Flo:
If you look carefully, you'll see that there is a little difference in high of the old and new surface.
It looks like something between 3 to 5 cm.
I think they changed the fundation too after talking to someone who knew what he is doing or take a look at Google.
Dont be afraid, the fun will go on with a new version of cells.
From my still-running video recording, just now (and yes, I have a recording of all the work leading up to this state):
Youtube post please!
Im not sure if this is supposed to be the stream, found it in the cache, its dead:
//v.angelcam.com/iframe?v=n8l9z0k9y0&autoplay=1
That is actually another real issue. Right now there is no sense stealing asphalt from the roadways, but copper wiring gets stolen here by homeless bastards all the time. Imagine if they can get their hands on the road surface?If somebody wants to steal the wiring from the solar roadways installation, they have already been pulled out and put in the trash bin (last few minutes of the video)!
according to their time plan it should be replaced in November.Well, it is 2 days until November is over. Cutting it a bit close, I see.
on the SR energy monitoring website (cant find the link anymore) it said that the panels will be upgraded to 3.1 in November.did they say 2016 ? Maybe they meant 2017 or 2032 or so :)
I don't have the gift of working through all of the math, etc. like Dave and others, but the whole idea of solar panels on roadways is an expensive disaster at best from an economical point of view. My question is: Why on the roadway? Why not beside the roadway or above the roadway?
I don't have the gift of working through all of the math, etc. like Dave and others, but the whole idea of solar panels on roadways is an expensive disaster at best from an economical point of view. My question is: Why on the roadway? Why not beside the roadway or above the roadway?
Because then:
a) It would not make the media
b) You would not be branded a genius for "inventing" the idea.
c) Politicians would not be celebrated for promoting "innovative" technology
d) You wouldn't get any money form the public crowd
e) You wouldn't get any money from government technology grants
Solar Roadways is a very clever way to extract money from the public and politicians, all while getting famous and lots of media coverage.
Hello,People making these roads from public money should be criminalized and put in prison for fraud.
Just in time for Christmas, Colas get up their demonstrator !
http://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2016/12/21/en-normandie-une-route-solaire-au-banc-d-essai_5052352_3244.html (http://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2016/12/21/en-normandie-une-route-solaire-au-banc-d-essai_5052352_3244.html)
One lane on one kilometer of real road. The minister inaugurated it.
They speak about 17Euro/Wp in this demonstrator phase compared to 1,3Euro/Wp for ground based solar.
Maintenance and lifetime unknown.
The top encapsulant is not glass but "resin" (epoxy?), which will probably not last very long, let's see.
Now the fun begins :)
Now let the subventions hit the fan !!
I live far away unfortunately, else I would have a look and a drive on it
they need to convert 1 million km of road to solar, and then the country would be totally solar powered. Anyone wondering, that is only 5 000 000 000 000 EUR, or the total government budget for 4 years.
Why is there no longer a video feed? Because the generation 3.1 panels are being installed right outside Solar Roadways' front door ... which faces North incidentally.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQba3ENhlKA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQba3ENhlKA)"Can Streets Become Giant Solar Panels?" That is almost funny... of course they can.
That would be a good thing in Sydney ... but, then, we are on the other side of the equator.Even in Sydney, and on a scale, it will be 3-10 times more expensive than ground-based solar panels. And I think in Australia there is more than enough available ground space.
No-one in their right mind would think that solar roadway is the solution.Quotethey need to convert 1 million km of road to solar, and then the country would be totally solar powered. Anyone wondering, that is only 5 000 000 000 000 EUR, or the total government budget for 4 years.
No-one in their right mind would think this means they will rip up 1mKm of road and lay solar panels as one job. The obvious way to do it is to fit the panels as roads would normally be repaired, so a) it's an ongoing job over a long time, and b) costs not so much since you're saving on not paying to fix the old road anyway.
No-one in their right mind would think that solar roadway is the solution.
if you put the panels just next to the road
Where? It's not going to happen because they would be fugly to start with, prevent normal road furniture being used, possibly be a safety hazard (restricted vision) and kill off the nice grass vergers, etc.How about: On top of the Houses?
QuoteNo-one in their right mind would think that solar roadway is the solution.
To what?
But if you read my post again you'll see that I wasn't arguing for or against the panels. I was pointing out that the argument against them - that they will cost the price of the Universe plus tax to fit en bloc - is invalid. Sure, say they will be more expensive, but going off on serious over-exaggeration just makes whatever good points were there invisible.Quoteif you put the panels just next to the road
Where? It's not going to happen because they would be fugly to start with, prevent normal road furniture being used, possibly be a safety hazard (restricted vision) and kill off the nice grass vergers, etc.
Above the Streets to shade the streets?
On top of the Houses?
The first question to ask is how often are (conventional) roads resurfaced. I'm not sure what the answer is here, but every 10 years is certainly a generous estimate.
hat would mean ...
f we set out to replace all newly repaired roads with solar roads
QuoteThe first question to ask is how often are (conventional) roads resurfaced. I'm not sure what the answer is here, but every 10 years is certainly a generous estimate.
I'm happy to go with that guestimate.Quotehat would mean ...
But you've lost me there. I think you are considering that we take road A and say "this is going to be a solar roadway" and then do it. That's the approach I think is wrong. Instead, you take this road, B, that is going to be repaired anway and plonk down the panels instead or repairing it the normal way. The cost is thus the cost of the panels less the cost it would have otherwise been to repair it. That may mean that road A doesn't get around to being done for 10 years, but meantime other roads will be being done.
In other words, this:Quotef we set out to replace all newly repaired roads with solar roads
is, sorry to be blunt, bonkers. You place the panels TO repair it, not afterwards! No wonder your costs would be so high :)
The cost argument in bonkers. Putting solar panels next to the road, and repairing the road cost the fraction of the solar road. You need to repair the road every ten years, and the panel every 25 years.QuoteThe first question to ask is how often are (conventional) roads resurfaced. I'm not sure what the answer is here, but every 10 years is certainly a generous estimate.
I'm happy to go with that guestimate.Quotehat would mean ...
But you've lost me there. I think you are considering that we take road A and say "this is going to be a solar roadway" and then do it. That's the approach I think is wrong. Instead, you take this road, B, that is going to be repaired anway and plonk down the panels instead or repairing it the normal way. The cost is thus the cost of the panels less the cost it would have otherwise been to repair it. That may mean that road A doesn't get around to being done for 10 years, but meantime other roads will be being done.
In other words, this:Quotef we set out to replace all newly repaired roads with solar roads
is, sorry to be blunt, bonkers. You place the panels TO repair it, not afterwards! No wonder your costs would be so high :)
Solar roadway you still need to do this all
But it seems to me to be daft to be standing pointing fingers and shouting "It'll never work" at them when they will clearly find out pretty soon if it does in practice or not. Why not give 'em a chance to write up the experiment?We don't say "It'll never work".
It will always be several times more expensive
an utterly stupid idea
Ah, just like nuclear, then :)Not at all. There was a clear path for nuclear energy.
Ah, just like nuclear, then :)Not at all. There was a clear path for nuclear energy.
Plainly, despite what you think, people with the clout and money may have a different view. unless you are privy to their spreadsheets and mindset I don't think you can be as robust as the views in this thread suggest. Sure, you can be doubtful, but whenever I see someone take the plunge like this I (nearly) always think "what am I missing" rather than increase the bet (or dig a deeper hole, as the case may be).
The real crunch will come when billions have been spent and the return on investment has been clearly demonstrated to be a disaster. At that time, it will be dropped like a hot potato ... but until then, those with vested interests, the greenies and the fan-boys will be singing the praises.
Government-based entities own a lot of regular zero-cost surface area where normal panels would thrive. The french public railways own 12 million square meter of land plus social housing, schools, hospitals. They aren't short of exploitable land and rooftops.
Government-based entities own a lot of regular zero-cost surface area where normal panels would thrive. The french public railways own 12 million square meter of land plus social housing, schools, hospitals. They aren't short of exploitable land and rooftops.
Yes, but a lot of those are earmarked for other use and would have a book value. The land used by roads probably don't.
I'm not trying to say this is sensible, just trying to get my head around how they could justify the expense, other than maybe trying to look like "innovation leaders".
I'm not trying to say ...
So, I don't recall if this has been discussed here or elsewhere, but I was thinking that one way the proponents of these solar roadway schemes could actually justify the apparently terrible ROI is that they are also factoring in the cost of the land needed for equivalent solar farms, versus an effectively zero cost for use of the roadway surface area.
Si l’idée séduit, notamment le maire du village de Tourouvre au Perche et ses habitants, la route comporte toutefois quelques inconvénients. Le premier est le bruit occasionné par le relief de la route. " C’est horrible le bruit. On ne pourra pas avoir des routes comme celle-là sur l’ensemble du territoire ", raconte l’un des commerçants du village. Ce témoignage est appuyé par celui d’une autre commerçante. " J’ai de la famille qui habite pas loin et du coup, on entend passer les voitures et ça fait quand même du bruit ", ajoute-t-elle.
" Ce n’est pas très parlant. Il faudra qu’il y ait une autoconsommation. On viserait évidemment l’éclairage public de notre commune, les bâtiments publics, les écoles et aussi les logements sociaux pour faire bénéficier les locataires de quelques dizaines d’euros par an ", explique Guy Monhée.Politics keep saying that it's equivalent to the lighting for a town. IT'S NOT ! Electricity cannot be stored at scale !!
En fait, ce tronçon en panneaux photovoltaïques d’un kilomètre de long doit permettre d’alimenter l’éclairage public d’une ville de 5000 habitants.
Malgré quelques désagréments, la plupart des habitants se réjouissent de cette expérimentation mondiale dans leur petit village. " C’est toujours flatteur de se dire que la première route solaire est ici ", se réjouit une commerçante. " Je pense qu’on va avoir pas mal de curieux qui vont venir voir parce qu’à Tourouvre, c’est rare quelque chose comme ça ", espère une autre. Pour l’instant, la route a régulièrement été fermée pour cause de maintenance, selon certains habitants. Difficile donc d’y voir à l’heure actuelle, un vrai bénéfice. Mais cela ne fait qu’un mois que l’expérience a été lancée.It attracts tourism. Yeah. That does not scale.
Electricity cannot be stored at scale !!
No.QuoteElectricity cannot be stored at scale !!No?
Pumped storage hydroelectric (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station)
It is planned to hold about 500 MWh of energy, with a round-trip efficiency of 75%Very useful, but not to scale as storage for day/night cycles, only for, like, 10 minutes.
We were planning to surprise you all this week – we had scheduled to install the new panels in Sandpoint, but like so much of the country, we’ve been inundated with snow and ice. We even had a falling branch take down a wire on our property...ironic since if we’d had an SR Cable Corridor there, that live wire would have been safely in its “home” under the ground.
We decided to postpone the installation until it’s safer. Rain is predicted for next week – which should wash away much of the snow. One thing we have learned with our test location in our own parking lot is how difficult winter installations are. Replacing damaged panels is not a big deal, but we are thinking that in the future, we’ll relegate installations in snowy regions to the other 3 seasons.
In addition to making the replacement panels, Scott has used this opportunity to continue to work on software, firmware and hardware upgrades. So much engineering goes into SR technology. Scott is going to write a blog post after the panels are in to explain in more detail what he’s been working on.
No.
This kind of massive thing can supply a part of the grid for a few minutes.
...
Very useful, but not to scale as storage for day/night cycles, only for, like, 10 minutes.
And that's a very mature tech, with a limited and already mainly used up resource (usable mountain lakes).
So definitely no. It does not scale any more. it reached a point close to it's capacity limit long ago.
however it is a viable way of storing some solar energy for later consumption in some areas.
Obviously pumped storage only works where the geography makes it possible, however it is a viable way of storing some solar energy for later consumption in some areas.It is possible to do it, of course. But it's not economically feasible, basically because it does not scale.
No.QuoteElectricity cannot be stored at scale !!No?
Pumped storage hydroelectric (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station)
This kind of massive thing can supply a part of the grid for a few minutes.QuoteIt is planned to hold about 500 MWh of energy, with a round-trip efficiency of 75%Very useful, but not to scale as storage for day/night cycles, only for, like, 10 minutes.
And that's a very mature tech, with a limited and already mainly used up resource (usable mountain lakes).
I just realized that Solar Roadways doesn't go far enough!
They want to pave parking lots, right? So why not pave parking structures? Instead of a single level of solar panels, a 12 to 15-fold gain can be achieved by paving a parking structure. This would also have the advantage, especially in underground parking structures, of protecting the panels from rain and snow.
I'm a genius. Should patent this idea before someone steals it.
And, wait, there's more!
Solar Subways. Solar Tunnels. Solar Flooring (imagine the multiplier effect with all those floors in skyscrapers). Solar Bookshelves. Solar Storage Facilities.
The possibilities are endless.
I haven't followed this for ages.
Who's cleaning off the snow?
(http://i.imgur.com/O76Rfpe.png)
They are now boasting on twitter about how it melts the snow ::)
Like it matters a rats arse!
How much power did they use to do that vs how much power did it generate minus all the power those stupid LED's take?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=295471;image)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C5tZ9uPVAAA1M_0.jpg:large)
Yes .... I want to see the energy balance sheet.
I expect John Travolta in a white suit and Olivia Newton-John in a headband to dance to the Bee Gees on those panels anytime now. :-DD
Yes .... I want to see the energy balance sheet.
They'll never show it.
I doubt they actually have meters installed anywhere there. It is probably powered from the same public toilet meter :)
Yes .... I want to see the energy balance sheet.
They'll never show it.
Brusaws may not, but the city of Sandpoint may have to if asked. Surely there is some Freedom of Information Act of something that could be invoked?
Yes .... I want to see the energy balance sheet.
They'll never show it.
Brusaws may not, but the city of Sandpoint may have to if asked. Surely there is some Freedom of Information Act of something that could be invoked?
A FOIA request is a possibility, but I am pretty sure they will ignore it unless it's from a media outlet with lawyers.
A FOIA request is a possibility, but I am pretty sure they will ignore it unless it's from a media outlet with lawyers.I admit I am not entirely familiar with the FOIA, but I would assume that the entire point of it is that it can not be ignored, unless it deals with national security. Since in this case it does not appear to do so, I believe there should be no reason for them to not be compelled to answer.
A FOIA request is a possibility, but I am pretty sure they will ignore it unless it's from a media outlet with lawyers.I admit I am not entirely familiar with the FOIA, but I would assume that the entire point of it is that it can not be ignored, unless it deals with national security. Since in this case it does not appear to do so, I believe there should be no reason for them to not be compelled to answer.
What I find interesting, according to https://www.foia.gov/faq.html (https://www.foia.gov/faq.html) anybody can make a request, US citizen or not.
And also FIOA can only retrieve information already stored by the government. If SR or whoever is responsible for taking readings from the meter did not do so, then FIOA will do nothing.
Simple requests like this are handled within a month or two.
I still can't figure out how this idea even got started. I mean of all the places one could put solar panels, why roads?
But the answer to the "Now where can I put them" question, there are so many reasonable and at least semi-reasonable answers that come before "roads."
But the answer to the "Now where can I put them" question, there are so many reasonable and at least semi-reasonable answers that come before "roads."
But the other places were logical (or more logical) so there were other people already working on them. A new product must be distinctive. (Apparently they skipped the part of the class that mentions feasible and economical :horse:)
Iffy roadways don't have to be solar https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSMxyadbpto (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSMxyadbpto) :)Does it come with a complimentary burger?
Thunderf00t posted this!It is not fully off, there is one LED stuck fully on...
New panels been in less than a month and it's failed AGAIN!
Both fully off and high brightness problem?
It would be interesting so see if/how they fix those problemsLast time, random passersby jumping on panels seemed to do the trick.
Thunderf00t posted this!
New panels been in less than a month and it's failed AGAIN!
Both fully off and high brightness problem?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C6OgfjIWcAEDDf0.jpg)
Now that the 2nd install has failed, the webcam has been taken down for "maintenance."I wonder who owns the camera? If it is owned by the city, then they should be able to comment on this? Do SR guys have control over it? Why? Would be nice to get some comments from the officials.
Now that the 2nd install has failed, the webcam has been taken down for "maintenance."I wonder who owns the camera? If it is owned by the city, then they should be able to comment on this? Do SR guys have control over it? Why? Would be nice to get some comments from the officials.
Owned and operated by the city.Then SR can't take down the stream on their own, presumably? I would not think that the city is interested in hiding faults of this technology.
The Mayor was a chief proponent of the project. It's safe to say there is a vested interest in the appearance of success, or at least the lack of a stream of webcam footage being recorded that documents failure.Owned and operated by the city.Then SR can't take down the stream on their own, presumably? I would not think that the city is interested in hiding faults of this technology.
The "high brightness problem" actually seems to be part of the animation. It moves between panels.
But one is certainly dead - not at all surprising.
The Mayor was a chief proponent of the project. It's safe to say there is a vested interest in the appearance of success, or at least the lack of a stream of webcam footage being recorded that documents failure.Owned and operated by the city.Then SR can't take down the stream on their own, presumably? I would not think that the city is interested in hiding faults of this technology.
The Solar Roadways electrical system is currently undergoing maintenance. Please check back late next week.
Never mind their stupid random LEDs going dark, how many kWh has this pile of shite put into (or more likely consumed from) the grid?
Show us the data!
Yes .... I want to see the energy balance sheet.
They'll never show it.
And it is not like something really stopped them from installing this at their house and figuring all that stuff there.
They did, and it was a rather impressive installation.I've seen that old one, but it was clearly a different design with drainage and all sorts of wonders of civil engineering.
And it is not like something really stopped them from installing this at their house and figuring all that stuff there.
Because they weren't getting paid with taxpayer money to do it...Yeah, but this sort of stuff is pretty damaging to the reputation. I guess the same people can create another company if SR name is totally trashed (if such thing is even possible).
Fire brigade called! :-DD
You can't script this stuff!
At least they are not just burning money anymore...And they are achieving a net output of energy, including quite a lot of light.
Missed the CO2 reduction goals tho...At least they are not just burning money anymore...And they are achieving a net output of energy, including quite a lot of light.
I wonder if this cabinet is water proof and if this is a problem? Looks more like something you would install inside of a house.
I wonder when they will finally give up.
This whole Solar Freakin' Roadways debacle is so retarded, in so many ways, that it is making my brain hurt.... :palm:
p.s. By the way, Dave, this time it still took 57 retries reloading the page for the Reply button to not generate a 502. Something is still very borked but at least it did actually get to the reply page after a few minutes of trying.
Money running out? Not any time soon, too many idiots eager to part from their dosh.I wonder when they will finally give up.When the money finally runs out, by which time, if they are smart enough to have created a highly favourable business plan, they will personally be rich enough just to retire to Florida and lie on the beach in the sun (a solar fricking breach!!) :-DD
Forum is working fine from all my devices via 3G/4G and fixed line services, maybe your ISP's DNS service is borked?
Forum is working fine from all my devices via 3G/4G and fixed line services, maybe your ISP's DNS service is borked?
Nope... Essentially I am the ISP. I am using my own DNS resolvers that all my customers use which go straight to the root servers for lookups, no upstream caching, etc. Reloading the comment page worked fine, no issues... Try to reply? Gateway error. Load another forum section? Another thread? No problem. Try to reply? Gateway error. This has been going on for weeks intermittently but seems to be getting worse and acting slower and slower on page loads lately. Just a heads-up for Dave.
Now, back to our regularly scheduled Solar Roadways discussion! :)
Based on the datasheets for the microinverters, I am surmising that the panels operate at 24VDC, since the lowest input voltage is 16VDC.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=259826;image)
I wonder when they will finally give up.
When the money finally runs out, by which time, if they are smart enough to have created a highly favourable business plan, they will personally be rich enough just to retire to Florida and lie on the beach in the sun (a solar fricking breach!!) :-DD
Based on the datasheets for the microinverters, I am surmising that the panels operate at 24VDC, since the lowest input voltage is 16VDC.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=259826;image)
Haven't been following this thread really, so bear with me if someone already noticed this.
There are 16 square cells in the top half, 16 square cells in the lower half and 16 half size solar cells in the middle. I'm no solar cell expert, but I'd expect three parallel strings (square || square || half-sized) as I wouldn't expect strings of mixed sizes. That would mean 16 × 0.6V = 9.6V per panel. Which in turn is a bit odd unless several panels are connected in series, but it would explain the lower current rating.
Afterthought: 5 inverters, 30 panels => 6 panels per string => 6 × 9.6V = 57.6V which is close to the maximum input rating of the converters if I recall correctly from the other post.
And finally, the media have turned:
http://dailycaller.com/2017/03/07/americas-first-solar-roadway-is-a-total-disaster/ (http://dailycaller.com/2017/03/07/americas-first-solar-roadway-is-a-total-disaster/)
And finally, the media have turned:
http://dailycaller.com/2017/03/07/americas-first-solar-roadway-is-a-total-disaster/ (http://dailycaller.com/2017/03/07/americas-first-solar-roadway-is-a-total-disaster/)
And finally, the media have turned:
http://dailycaller.com/2017/03/07/americas-first-solar-roadway-is-a-total-disaster/ (http://dailycaller.com/2017/03/07/americas-first-solar-roadway-is-a-total-disaster/)
It will be interesting to see if this propagates through the media - or fades into obscurity.
The unfortunate thing is that the message many will take away from this boondoggle is that solar PV itself is not viable - providing abundant confirmation bias for those of that mindset.
(http://catonauts.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/buttered-cat-paradox-cartoon.jpg)
And 11 days since I wrote to Sandpoint City Administrator regarding fire, power generation and power consumption.Their mail system was clearly running on Solar Roadways produced energy! :-DD
Still no answer.
It has been 12 days since the panels went dark. It is safe to say, they will miss their 7-10 days deadline :)
Is that to make it easier on his knees, or to protect the glass surface, you know, the one they want to drive cars on?
Is that to make it easier on his knees, or to protect the glass surface, you know, the one they want to drive cars on?
There's someone standing next to him on a different panel, so I'm guessing that kneeling on icy glass is no fun.
Spot the difference...IDK?
Spot the difference...IDK?
Stats are liveSo, 750watt hours on their best day.
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pv/public_systems/V3vh1173801/overview
Oh Em Gee. On their best day, that ridiculously expensive, completely impractical monstrosity produced ten pence of electricity, yes £0.10 at UK prices. (About five cents at US prices?)It's bad, but it is March. Will be very interesting to see how they perform over the summer months. Anyone want to calculate how long it'd take to break even the cost of those panels, let alone the entire funding costs?
:-DD :-DD
Dave, PLEASE do a follow up video with $/kWp and $/kWh/year comparisons...
how they perform over the summer months
It's bad, but it is March. Will be very interesting to see how they perform over the summer months. Anyone want to calculate how long it'd take to break even the cost of those panels, let alone the entire funding costs?If this table of insolation values is reliable http://stalix.com/isolation.pdf (http://stalix.com/isolation.pdf) one would expect just under twice as much output in Jul/Aug as in March, on average.
he incident angle of sunlight
Quotehow they perform over the summer months
That's the important factor. Worth noting that the best output managed, 750Wh, was on a rainy day. It's surprising they got any output at all!
the energy output in direct sunlight is a lot more than double
"Solar burnin' roadways".Quotethe energy output in direct sunlight is a lot more than double
I'd say that's rather conservative! If they're having problems with a few LEDs, a nice summer day is going to give them a bit of a shock, I think :)
you can't see the shed for the trees... I bet I'd get more output there than Solar Frisking Roadways are managing at the moment.
Stats are live
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pv/public_systems/V3vh1173801/overview
I presume it's gross output, as surely that is what you want to test and would give the best marketing numbers possible.
Does it matter?
On one hand you have bugger all production, on the other there's bugger all production + piss poor performance.
Looks like someone allready did the numbers and came to a factual conclusion:Does it matter?
On one hand you have bugger all production, on the other there's bugger all production + piss poor performance.
Yeah, not really, just wanted to get it right. I could run typical numbers for those LEDs anyway.
Are there heating elements?There must be. 99% of the actual roadways surface area is not painted, so those LEDs will be off all the time. Only tiles on intersection and between the lanes will indicate road markings, most of the time in a static pattern. This is not enough to melt snow.
Aren't the LED's pumping out enough heat to fry them self?
As a solar powered art installation the sidewalk tiles would actually be pretty cool, and reasonably feasible. Forget trying to harvest any useful energy from it, just make them self contained and light up. It seems however that they can't even make that work reliably without requiring external energy and that's nowhere near the challenge of making it work as a roadway surface.Not only feasible but done before.
Hey, we've got some road markings! And just as expected, they look like garbage.
Are there heating elements?They might not need separate heating elements. If the LEDs don't produce enough waste heat, you should be able use the solar cells themselves as heaters. Of course you can't produce energy if you do that, but if your aim is to melt snow laying on top, that's hardly going to be an issue.
Aren't the LED's pumping out enough heat to fry them self?
(Probably the reason for the pattern cycling.)
a massively cheaper installation generating massively more power
The point is that you have to treat it as a whole. ... the whole was better than the sum of the parts.
LabSpokane, how about approaching the local politicians and offering to install PV panels (of equal area) on the roof of that toilet block, along with a grid tie inverter and export meter. We could crowdfund the cost on here. Then people would see a massively cheaper installation generating massively more power. Might even make the enviromentalists realise what a stupid idea SR is...
until every rooftop, parking lot and vacant piece of land with no other practical use is covered in solar panels
For anyone to introduce a photovoltaic power generation scheme that is orders of magnitude more than what is available today is simply stupid.
So when you imply "the markings won't be visible during the day but that won't matter much"
For anyone to introduce a photovoltaic power generation scheme that is orders of magnitude more than what is available today is simply stupid.
We're already at about 30% efficiency for solar panels. No possible photovoltaic power generation scheme can even be a single order of magnitude better than what we have today.
This is what needs explaining to the people - solar panels are not going to improve at the speed of cellphones or any of the other magic technology the engineers have given them.
(the same engineers who apparently know nothing at all whenever they disagree with their personal opinions)
QuoteSo when you imply "the markings won't be visible during the day but that won't matter much"
Wait - where did I say or imply that? Don't put words onto my keyboard and then argue them as if I'd written them.
The point is that you have to treat it as a whole. Take a smartphone ... the camera was much worse than a real camera, GPS not as good as a real satnav, etc. But no-one ever bought a phone JUST to be a camera
So I thought ...
Some Media counterpoint:
"Solar FREAKIN’ Roadways has been in development for 6.5 years and received a total of $4.3 million in funding to generate 90 cents worth of electricity."
http://dailycaller.com/2017/04/03/idahos-4-3-million-solar-road-generates-enough-power-to-run-one-microwave/#ixzz4dKv4fqpZ (http://dailycaller.com/2017/04/03/idahos-4-3-million-solar-road-generates-enough-power-to-run-one-microwave/#ixzz4dKv4fqpZ)
On March 31st, the panels generated 1.06 kWh, enough to barely power a single microwave.
Well, actuially ... you could do it.
You just need to add a Tesla power wall, an inverter and at least a one day lead time.
Anyone have a rough idea of what a traditional ground solar farm costs, either per area or per power output?
Anyone have a rough idea of what a traditional ground solar farm costs, either per area or per power output? As in, with all this money dumped in to Solar Roadways, how much of a known, proven system could have been deployed and how much power would it be generating.
While the problems during the initial installation were a “really expensive lesson,” the Brusaws said they are grateful for what they’ve learned and are thrilled all 30 panels are working exactly as expected — even when the town square was buried under a 2- to 3-foot blanket of snow.
Some tech blogs are FINALLY picking the BS up...
http://www.eteknix.com/solar-panel-road-in-idaho-cost-4-3-million-and-barely-makes-any-power/ (http://www.eteknix.com/solar-panel-road-in-idaho-cost-4-3-million-and-barely-makes-any-power/)
Solar Panel Road in Idaho Cost $4.3 Million and Barely Makes Any Power
Lefteris Papaiosif / 1 min ago
solar panel road
A not so cost effective solar panel road in Idaho, considering it was funded with $4.3 million, produces enough juice to just barely power a small device such as a microwave oven. In late March, the Solar FREAKIN’ Roadways project posted data which was rather disappointing, as the very expensive road could only generate 0.62 kWh worth of energy on a daily average.
In detail, on March 29th 0.26 kWh was generated from the road panels, which for example can’t even power a PC monitor. Two days later, official readings showed that 1.06 kWh of energy was generated by the panels, which should be enough to power a domestic refrigerator. This low power output of the Solar FREAKIN’ Roadways project is caused by design fault but even if that was not the case the and the road panels actually worked as intended, the energy generated would not justify the cost of the project itself because the energy produced daily does not exceed the worth of 90 cents.
Eventually, the Solar FREAKIN’ Roadways project “burst into flames” due to an electrical box which caught fire. The fire was captured in a series of screenshots taken in late March. Firefighters rushed to the scene and issued an update on the official project’s webcam reading: “The Solar Roadways electrical system is currently undergoing maintenance. Please check back late next week.”
The tragedy of Solar Roadways is that the press de-bunking thus far uses as faulty of engineering mathematics as its progenitor.
0.26kW-h would actually power a typical LCD monitor for around 10 hours.
A little truth in advertising from Solar Roadways this evening:
>(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=307573;image)
.... executive summary ....
Maybe the camera is powered by the solar system. :-DDOr it was just FREAKIN' out.
Unfortunately, there are excessive amounts of journalism that fail in the accuracy metric.
Edit:
Scott Brusaw's "Behind the scenes" article can be found here http://www.solarroadways.com/Blog/Show?b=8 (http://www.solarroadways.com/Blog/Show?b=8)
It gives some interesting insights (PCB of a controller shown, discussion of LEDs used, bus, light sensor, heating etc) and ... well ... I must admit that it is even more complex and expensive than expected.
Scott Brusaw's "Behind the scenes" article can be found here http://www.solarroadways.com/Blog/Show?b=8 (http://www.solarroadways.com/Blog/Show?b=8)
We experimented with a true RGB LED, but experienced some problems: to make white, you illuminate all three (red, green, and blue). That requires three times the power of illuminating a single dedicated white LED.This doesn't make sense. Is it only full on or full off? If it is PWM controlled, then you would drive each LED with only 1/3 the duty cycle and it would need the same power and would have the same brightness as a white LED which is on all the time.
No the real issue is that it is still pointless. Cars have lights on, and we don't have, and never have had, a need for configurable road markings
The uses for video displays on roads are limitless.
[...]
No the real issue is that it is still pointless. Cars have lights on, and we don't have, and never have had, a need for configurable road markings (even if you could see them) [...]
There is a need for reconfigureable road markings, e.g. around convention centers and sport places. I know one example in Germany (Messe Hannover) where a 4-lane-road can be reconfigured, giving 3 lanes toward the convention center in the morning and 2 or 3 outwards in the afternoon to reduce traffic jams. This solution is done by moveable barriers, which requires a lot of work to reconfigure
There is a need for reconfigureable road markings, e.g. around convention centers and sport places. I know one example in Germany (Messe Hannover) where a 4-lane-road can be reconfigured, giving 3 lanes toward the convention center in the morning and 2 or 3 outwards in the afternoon to reduce traffic jams. This solution is done by moveable barriers, which requires a lot of work to reconfigure
I like this solution. It's in a couple of places in the USA, one of which is the Golden Gate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl0Q2bDnBUc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl0Q2bDnBUc)
That's gold.
Classic nice engineering solution to a problem.
I like this solution. It's in a couple of places in the USA, one of which is the Golden Gate.
Similar/Same system used on the Auckland Harbour Bridge here in NZ.
National Geographic just published an interview with Solar Roadways founders Scott and Julie Brusaw...Came here to mention this, but got ninja'd.
Dave, don't you have that shirt that says something about feedback?
^^
Can you show us how you worked out the peak(?) power output of 45W please?
I'm a bit confused - the peak that I see is 1.3kWh on one day during week starting May 7th. This implied a total energy output of 4680000J Divide this by (24hours x 60mins x 60s) brings an average wattage of 54W that day??
OMG, Solar freaking disco walkways is a fail !!
The Facebook page "Solar Freakin Bullshit" has a past about some panels appearing to have failed.I'm a member of that too :)
(https://m.facebook.com/groups/947009518667276?ref=m_notif¬if_t=group_activity)
So I jumped on the webcam to look for myself and .... nothing. Looks like the webcam is down.
Coincidence? I think not...
Wow. That's beyond pathetic.
And some news from the other side of the globe:Wow, not only can the Chinese prototype "warm up in order to melt snow and ice" - a feature proven to be nuts with the BOOE*
Somebody has stolen a part of the solar road.
https://techcrunch.com/2018/01/05/someone-stole-a-piece-of-chinas-new-solar-panel-paved-road-less-than-a-week-after-it-opened/
Wow, not only can the Chinese prototype "warm up in order to melt snow and ice" - a feature proven to be nuts with the BOOE*
analysis system, but also has "coils that can charge electric cars as they drive over it".
Rational thought really has taken a holiday with these things hasn't it?
Average car length - hmm, say 2.5m. Amount of time available for transfer as car passes that 2.5m stretch - at 50km/hr that would be (2.5/50000*3600)=180ms. Power needed to travel 2.5m (assuming 300Wh/mile) 1678watt seconds - to get that to the car every 180ms - 10kW** (give or take). Given a minimum separation between any coil in the road and in the car of 30cm this seems a tall order, especially if we add in the fact that the car is moving.
Well, there is (was??) a wirelessly powered bus in Korea.Neat
https://www.wired.com/2013/08/induction-charged-buses/ (https://www.wired.com/2013/08/induction-charged-buses/)
Somebody has stolen a part of the solar road.Why? Too small to use on someones driveway. A competitor doing some industrial espionage?
https://techcrunch.com/2018/01/05/someone-stole-a-piece-of-chinas-new-solar-panel-paved-road-less-than-a-week-after-it-opened/
Probably someone who saw something they could steal so they took it. Some people will steal anything that isn't nailed down, and some things that are. Wouldn't surprise me if it was teenagers who wanted a cool toy to play with.But this is indicative of a real problem with BS projects like this. You theoretically have miles of unsupervised high tech stuff. Ripe for stealing and recycling.
Not a fan of solar roads, but so unsupervised are the miles of copper and aluminum which bring you power and communications. In the civilized world this shouldn't be a problem.Probably someone who saw something they could steal so they took it. Some people will steal anything that isn't nailed down, and some things that are. Wouldn't surprise me if it was teenagers who wanted a cool toy to play with.But this is indicative of a real problem with BS projects like this. You theoretically have miles of unsupervised high tech stuff. Ripe for stealing and recycling.
In the civilized world this shouldn't be a problem.Yeah, right. All that stuff is barely accessible. And accessible stuff gets stolen all the time for copper. And that's in the middle of silicon valley. Homeless people disable traffic lights for copper to recycle.
Probably someone who saw something they could steal so they took it. Some people will steal anything that isn't nailed down, and some things that are. Wouldn't surprise me if it was teenagers who wanted a cool toy to play with.The solar panels are below transparent concrete and the missing piece was "neatly cut" by a "professional team" according to the article.
Transparent concrete? You mean some sort of plastic resin I assume?I don't know. It is the term used in all articles about the opening of this solar road. I have no idea what it is made of.
This new solar road has been installed on a two-kilometer stretch of the Jinan City Expressway, in Jinan City. One of its strengths is that it uses, for the first time, “transparent concrete” , which, according to those responsible for the work, has almost the same structural properties as conventional asphalt.
Don't underestimate the ability of thieves, it's not unheard of for people to use power tools or cutting torches to swipe copper and other valuable substances. I would not be surprised if someone used a cordless circular saw to cut a section out.They only cut out "6 inches" by "6 feet". Not much use for anything except reverse engineering.
I can't imagine any serious espionage attempt would hit this stuff, who is going to steal garbage technology? Any remotely competent tinkerer could come up with something that fails to live up to claims just as well as this stuff does.Some people in the US, France and China think it is freaking fantastic.
Some kind of plastic ofcourse. 'Transparent concrete' is definitely something which got translated wrong somewhere between a Chinese engineer and an English speaking journalist with no further education than primary school.Transparent concrete? You mean some sort of plastic resin I assume?I don't know. It is the term used in all articles about the opening of this solar road. I have no idea what it is made of.
I was talking about the civilized world...In the civilized world this shouldn't be a problem.Yeah, right. All that stuff is barely accessible. And accessible stuff gets stolen all the time for copper. And that's in the middle of silicon valley. Homeless people disable traffic lights for copper to recycle.
I was talking about the civilized world...You can poke fun all you want, that is not going to change the reality.
>Quote from: ataradov on Yesterday at 07:54:29 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=32746.msg1394585#msg1394585)
>Quote from: ivaylo on Yesterday at 07:52:25 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=32746.msg1394583#msg1394583)In the civilized world this shouldn't be a problem.
Yeah, right. All that stuff is barely accessible. And accessible stuff gets stolen all the time for copper. And that's in the middle of silicon valley. Homeless people disable traffic lights for copper to recycle.
I was talking about the civilized world...
Transparent concrete? You mean some sort of plastic resin I assume?I don't know. It is the term used in all articles about the opening of this solar road. I have no idea what it is made of.
Some kind of plastic ofcourse. 'Transparent concrete' is definitely something which got translated wrong somewhere between a Chinese engineer and an English speaking journalist with no further education than primary school.
If someone can point me to this mythical "civilized world" where theft and vandalism doesn't occur I'd like to know. Sounds like a nice place.
Transparent concrete? You mean some sort of plastic resin I assume?I don't know. It is the term used in all articles about the opening of this solar road. I have no idea what it is made of.
It's almost as if you've never heard of a web site called infoseek.Some kind of plastic ofcourse. 'Transparent concrete' is definitely something which got translated wrong somewhere between a Chinese engineer and an English speaking journalist with no further education than primary school.
Nope, it's really made of concrete.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translucent_concrete
Monaco.Great, its population is 40 000. San Jose alone is 1 million. We are totally talking about the same stuff.
Are you sure?
Are you sure? According to that article, the translucent concrete transmits about 2% of the light that hits it. Surely blocking 98% of the light is not going to result in an effective solar panel even under ideal conditions.2% light ... with 5% fibers.
If someone can point me to this mythical "civilized world" where theft and vandalism doesn't occur I'd like to know. Sounds like a nice place.Yeah, time to buy an airplane ticket. Canada, Australia/NZ, Northern Europe (Russia excluded), Japan... Pretty civilized in my book.
Concrete is a "catch all" term which can be used for all sorts of different conglomerate/composite materials, the surface could well be a "concrete" consisting of mostly clear glass aggregate with a suitable binder. I'd even believe it if they claimed to have found a combination of ingredients compatible with existing handling/laying equipment and it just rolled out the top layer like a normal road.Are you sure? According to that article, the translucent concrete transmits about 2% of the light that hits it. Surely blocking 98% of the light is not going to result in an effective solar panel even under ideal conditions.It's almost as if you've never heard of a web site called infoseek.Transparent concrete? You mean some sort of plastic resin I assume?I don't know. It is the term used in all articles about the opening of this solar road. I have no idea what it is made of.Some kind of plastic ofcourse. 'Transparent concrete' is definitely something which got translated wrong somewhere between a Chinese engineer and an English speaking journalist with no further education than primary school.Nope, it's really made of concrete.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translucent_concrete
If someone can point me to this mythical "civilized world" where theft and vandalism doesn't occur I'd like to know. Sounds like a nice place.Yeah, time to buy an airplane ticket. Canada, Australia/NZ, Northern Europe (Russia excluded), Japan... Pretty civilized in my book.
People still get robbed in NZ unfortunately. And Australia is always stealing stuff from NZ so cross them out too... :popcorn:We're just trying to get back the stuff that jumped across the ditch somehow.... ::)
People still get robbed in NZ unfortunately. And Australia is always stealing stuff from NZ so cross them out too... :popcorn:We're just trying to get back the stuff that jumped across the ditch somehow.... ::)
That's not the argument at all, simply it's something that must be taken into consideration. If you leave something of value unsupervised in an area with a lot of people coming through, somebody with nothing better to do will eventually steal it or break it.Taken in consideration is one thing, don't innovate and make available to everyone is another. Not a fan of solar roadways in any way, just some folks here took it too far.
That's not the argument at all, simply it's something that must be taken into consideration. If you leave something of value unsupervised in an area with a lot of people coming through, somebody with nothing better to do will eventually steal it or break it.Taken in consideration is one thing, don't innovate and make available to everyone is another. Not a fan of solar roadways in any way, just some folks here took it too far.
PS: Aussies an Kiwies are so much alike to the rest of the world that trying to find differences is kinda entertaining actually.
Like Yanks & Canucks! ;D
* looks for the popcorn *
You'd think they could at least have the LEDs flashing to make it look a bit more festive.
You'd think they could at least have the LEDs flashing to make it look a bit more festive.
They could power them from the solar panels.
You'd think they could at least have the LEDs flashing to make it look a bit more festive.
They could power them from the solar panels.
You'd think they could at least have the LEDs flashing to make it look a bit more festive.
They could power them from the solar panels.
They are powered from the solar panels.
The SR3 testing at Jeff Jones Square in Sandpoint and at Marquette University in Milwaukee has been completed. We are grateful to the city of Sandpoint and all residents and visitors who served as our testers on this pilot project. This “real life test” gave us the information we needed to make important improvements to the design for SR4. We’ll share what we’ve learned, along with some insight into the array of civil engineering tests performed at Marquette.
The biggest challenge that we’ve found has been the manufacturing process. Each individual part worked fine, but putting everything together and subjecting them to the manufacturing process created some problems and a very challenging learning curve.
There are three fundamental features of the Solar Road Panels: the LED functionality, surface heating, and solar harvesting. Here’s what we’ve learned about each from the Sandpoint pilot project:
LED Functionality
SR3 has an array of LEDs, including red, green, blue, white, and yellow. Other colors and shades can be created by mixing the standard colors – we created a few extras for SR3 and will be working with more colors with SR4. These are individual high brightness LEDs designed for outdoor use. They worked great in all preliminary testing. We could turn them up so bright that they could actually hurt your eyes outside on a very sunny day. During SR3 testing, we worked to determine the optimal brightness levels for the LEDs in different situations. Now they automatically adjust themselves to the ambient light and we are pleased with how that is working.
The heavy vacuum of the lamination process is a very harsh environment for small electronics. The tiny LEDs were being damaged during this process. We experimented with many types of clear epoxies to protect them from the lamination process. We eventually found one that could handle the job and began producing panels.
When we initially installed the 30 panels at Jeff Jones Square, we programmed them to rotate through a series of patterns. It resembled a moving dance floor and the kids loved it. Later, we began to create some static images such as this earth design:
Earth Image at Jeff Jones Square
We left this up for 2-3 weeks, when we noticed something unusual: the blue LEDs began to fade (lower their intensity). Experimenting with other patterns, we noticed the same thing happening with the white and yellow LEDs. The red and green LEDs were not affected. This was confusing and frustrating, and we could not continue manufacturing panels until this was resolved.
After many conversations with the LED manufacturer, we learned that the blue, yellow, and white LEDs were made differently than the green and red LEDs. Together, after much testing, we came to the conclusion that the protective epoxy was having a chemical reaction with the LEDs and the sun was the catalyst.
This has been corrected for the SR4 design so that protective epoxies are no longer needed.
Heating
After two north Idaho winters, we’ve learned quite a lot with the heat testing results. Although SR3 was able to keep up with the snow in most situations, we’re increasing the heating capability of SR4 to allow for faster heating. This will allow the panels to more easily keep their temperatures up during heavy snowfall.
The Sandpoint installation used anodized aluminum panel retainers between the panels. Since there is no heating in the gaps between the panels, these metal pieces took on the ambient temperature. We learned that they could create an ice bridge during really heavy snowfall combined with extremely low temperatures. We’ve designed a rubber replacement – a “t-channel” for the aluminum units. This new design also greatly simplifies installation and maintenance.
Solar Harvesting
The most disappointing aspect of the pilot project in Sandpoint has been the energy harvesting. In order to increase the number of solar cells in the SR3 panel (SR2 was 36-watts and SR3 is 44-watts), we used a parallel/series combination of cell connections. We also created a Consolidator Board to consolidate the power collected by the panels. We used a parallel/series combination on this board to create the power input requirements for the micro-inverters.
Although all technical solar information I have found says that you can parallel solar power, we found that to be a very bad idea. All of the SR2 panels had their solar cells connected in series, so we’d never seen this problem. What we found was this: every panel produced power, but we couldn’t get them to combine properly to meet the input requirements of the micro-inverters. We were never able to “see” more than 1/3 of the power being produced. In addition, we learned that the extra laminate that was used in SR3 as compared to SR2 due to design changes interfered with solar gain. These problems have been eliminated with the new SR4 design.
For SR4, we found a way to maximize the solar cell area while maintaining a series-connected system. We also increased the wattage from 44W (SR3) to 50W (SR4). In addition, we’ve going from 17.6-percent efficient solar cells (SR3) to 22.5-percent efficient solar cells (SR4). We’ll always be able to increase the solar gain over time as the solar industry continues to advance and make more efficient products for us to incorporate. All of this means that we’ll be able to produce a lot more power with the SR4 panels.
We’ve also replaced the energy monitoring system with a more “Solar Road Panel friendly” monitoring system: one with a much larger input range that doesn’t require the parallel/series configurations.
When we get the SR4s installed, we’ll activate the system on the city’s website. For now, the current energy monitoring system reads zero because the panels have been disconnected from it.
Additional SR4 Improvements
Another hard lesson learned: the cables that were used with the SR3 panels had a plastic jacket. Over time, this plastic jacket became brittle and cracked, allowing water into the cable. After several months, some of the panels began to fail. We’d see only half of the panel lit up. Eventually, the LED patterns would become corrupted and the panel could no longer be communicated with.
We began removing the damaged panels and inspecting them. We found damaged cables where water had entered and began corroding the wires inside. This corrosion creates resistance, which in turn robs the panels of power. This means that the microprocessor, the LEDs, and the heating elements are not receiving the power that they need to function properly.
The new SR4 design uses and molded rubber cable which remains much more flexible after the lamination process.
Civil Engineering Tests Completed
As part of our third contract with the US Department of Transportation, our panels have been undergoing testing at the civil engineering department at Marquette University in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. They performed the following tests:
Shear testing
Freeze/Thaw cycling
Moisture conditioning
Accelerated load testing (simulates 15-years of truck abuse in 3-months)
They were so impressed by the results of the testing that they want to co-author a journal paper with us about the overall test program. We’ll be releasing the findings in a scientific engineering journal.
Summary
The Sandpoint pilot project gave us very valuable information: It allowed us time to tweak the LED intensity tables (the LEDs get brighter when the sun does likewise), adjust the heating profile with real time weather patterns, and taught us how to change our manufacturing process to solve the problems that were presented. It also pointed out the weaknesses in the SR3 panels, allowing us to finalize the SR4 design.
We decided from the very beginning of our Solar Roadways journey to be as transparent as possible. We realize that is not the way startups usually operate, but we wanted to be different. We are doing this work for the world and we wanted to allow our fan base to come along with us on the journey. Most people have realized that problems are part and parcel of the learning curve with inventing. We’ve been grateful to have so much support as we’ve worked to improve the panels and get them ready for mass production.
Since we’re done with the pilot project, and since the damaged cables are creating problems for the SR3 panels, we will shut down the Jeff Jones Square installation until spring, when we will replace the system with the new SR4 panels.
The first of the SR4 circuit boards have been received and tested. The first SR4 panels should be completed by the end of January. They will be tested extensively. We’ll put a few in our parking lot on Pine Street in Sandpoint, where everyone will be welcome to visit. Others will go to temporary exhibits. We just announced that one of those events will be the Treefort Music Festival in Boise in March. When the weather warms up in the spring we’ll replace the SR3 panels with SR4 panels at Jeff Jones Town Square in Sandpoint.
The SR4 will become the first commercially available Solar Road Panel
I can see a big secondary market in kids disco dance floors...I expect the next revision will be pressure sensitive, and allow you to play dance dance revolution.
(http://www.solarroadways.com/images/blog/JJS%20-%20Scott%20blog%202.jpg)
We were never able to “see” more than 1/3 of the power being produced. In addition, we learned that the extra laminate that was used in SR3 as compared to SR2 due to design changes interfered with solar gain. These problems have been eliminated with the new SR4 design.
For SR4, we found a way to maximize the solar cell area while maintaining a series-connected system. We also increased the wattage from 44W (SR3) to 50W (SR4). In addition, we’ve going from 17.6-percent efficient solar cells (SR3) to 22.5-percent efficient solar cells (SR4).
We’ll always be able to increase the solar gain over time as the solar industry continues to advance and make more efficient products for us to incorporate.
All of this means that we’ll be able to produce a lot more power with the SR4 panels.[/quote]
It is true, but not in a useful way. See Zeno's paradoxes. There will always be a new generation of the product coming up which gets just that little bit closer to the theoretical limit, when you are already almost there. This allows people in most disciplines to correctly but deceptively keep saying there will be further improvements, when all the useful improvements which are possible have already been made.QuoteWe’ll always be able to increase the solar gain over time as the solar industry continues to advance and make more efficient products for us to incorporate.
Not true. There's a physical limit that solar panels are already approaching.
Don't know if this has been posted, but a recent update from Sept on the website:QuoteFor SR4, we found a way to maximize the solar cell area while maintaining a series-connected system. We also increased the wattage from 44W (SR3) to 50W (SR4). In addition, we’ve going from 17.6-percent efficient solar cells (SR3) to 22.5-percent efficient solar cells (SR4)....
(A)DSL anyone? During my EE studies I learned that 9600 baud was the maximum transmission speed physically possible over a phone line.QuoteIt is true, but not in a useful way. See Zeno's paradoxes. There will always be a new generation of the product coming up which gets just that little bit closer to the theoretical limit, when you are already almost there. This allows people in most disciplines to correctly but deceptively keep saying there will be further improvements, when all the useful improvements which are possible have already been made.QuoteWe’ll always be able to increase the solar gain over time as the solar industry continues to advance and make more efficient products for us to incorporate.
Not true. There's a physical limit that solar panels are already approaching.
(A)DSL anyone? During my EE studies I learned that 9600 baud was the maximum transmission speed physically possible over a phone line.QuoteIt is true, but not in a useful way. See Zeno's paradoxes. There will always be a new generation of the product coming up which gets just that little bit closer to the theoretical limit, when you are already almost there. This allows people in most disciplines to correctly but deceptively keep saying there will be further improvements, when all the useful improvements which are possible have already been made.QuoteWe’ll always be able to increase the solar gain over time as the solar industry continues to advance and make more efficient products for us to incorporate.
Not true. There's a physical limit that solar panels are already approaching.
You should ask for your money back. Phone lines have never had a limitation of 9600 baud. On the other hand ADSL only runs at 4000 baud.(A)DSL anyone? During my EE studies I learned that 9600 baud was the maximum transmission speed physically possible over a phone line.QuoteIt is true, but not in a useful way. See Zeno's paradoxes. There will always be a new generation of the product coming up which gets just that little bit closer to the theoretical limit, when you are already almost there. This allows people in most disciplines to correctly but deceptively keep saying there will be further improvements, when all the useful improvements which are possible have already been made.QuoteWe’ll always be able to increase the solar gain over time as the solar industry continues to advance and make more efficient products for us to incorporate.
Not true. There's a physical limit that solar panels are already approaching.
the first commercial ADSL modem probably ran pretty well, I bet there were a number of prototypes that led up to the released product
Rather than be pedantic about the detail, think about what he's trying to get across: the state of the art changes and things that one wouldn't previously dream of become the norm.
You should ask for your money back. Phone lines have never had a limitation of 9600 baud. On the other hand ADSL only runs at 4000 baud.Shannon & Hartley don't agree with you:
Exactly how do they disagree with me?You should ask for your money back. Phone lines have never had a limitation of 9600 baud. On the other hand ADSL only runs at 4000 baud.Shannon & Hartley don't agree with you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon%E2%80%93Hartley_theorem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon%E2%80%93Hartley_theorem)
Let's not start a potato potaato discussion. The fact is that (A)DSL grossly exceeds what has been deemed the absolute limit for a very long time.Comms books in the 1960s documented the kind of OFDM used in ADSL, although they hadn't coined the term OFDM for it back then. In those days it was described as a way to conceptually get close to Shannon, but one which would probably never be economically feasible. It turned out the semiconductor progress was much greater than most people expected.
How does a translucent solar panel work?They are not just translucent,. The panels over the two carriageways are facing in opposite directions, so one of them is definitely tilting the wrong way.
one of them is definitely tilting the wrong way
In an accident, and we get them daily here, it's a HUGE repair bill !Crashes aren't that common here. I'd guess the panels would get hit less than once per year. While mounting the panels higher up might keep them saver in the event that someone does run into the side of the road, it also makes cleaning and servicing much more cumbersome. I'm guessing that's why they decided to keep them near ground level (they seem to be about 1.5m up, and behind the guard rail)
It is a north/south road indeed. But keep in mind this is CGI, it hasn't actually been built yet (unlike the installation in the second image.) If they actually do it, it'll probably not end up looking exactly like that.Quoteone of them is definitely tilting the wrong way
That struck me, but being charitable I figured the road might be north/south so each side might be appropriately tilted for half the day.
it'll probably not end up looking exactly like that
How does a translucent solar panel work?They are not just translucent,. The panels over the two carriageways are facing in opposite directions, so one of them is definitely tilting the wrong way.
Oh and btw, we've had solar roadways here for decades. They're not as spectacular as some of the newer proposals, but the upside is, they actually work! (see attachment 2)I've seen a lot of that roadside type of solar panel in Germany. The idea seems basically sound, making use of otherwise wasted land. However, some of them seem to get a lot of shading from vehicles on busy Autobahns, and I wonder how often they need cleaning of tarry deposits that close to the vehicles. A grass roadside can look pretty polluted, and that's a living system with some self cleaning properties.
Holland: Google street view (https://www.google.com/maps/@52.2908565,4.903417,3a,25y,89h,89.31t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s1GmGXsdbPRoJKT9v-Fvujg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D1GmGXsdbPRoJKT9v-Fvujg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D232.04341%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)
Some statements are made in error, eg. "9600 baud is the maximum transmission speed physically possible over a phone line" was based on the false assumption that telephone exchanges wouldn't change.
The next big 'in' thing is solar railroad tracks!Yes! They can save tons of steel by using silica for the rails too.