Author Topic: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown  (Read 59525 times)

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Offline dr.diesel

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2014, 05:51:03 am »
dave, start pronouncing 'Z' like we do, 'zee'

I'm with Dave, but then again I'm an Amateur Radio operator, probably makes me a bit biased.

Offline Warhawk

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2014, 06:11:09 am »
I can't wait for the full review, I have already ordered one and can't wait to get it.

I was going to buy the DS1074z, but that is really obsolete at this point, because after the 'upgrade' they would both be 100MHz with the same features.
Maybe the Intensity Grading isn't as good, but I for almost $ 200 less I can live with that.

As the owner of DS1074z I am really getting lost in all those information. You say that ds1054z has a different intensity grading that ds1074z or 1104z ?
I think the last conclusion was that all models have identical HW, right ?

Offline sweesiong78

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2014, 06:16:02 am »
dave, start pronouncing 'Z' like we do, 'zee'

I'm with Dave, but then again I'm an Amateur Radio operator, probably makes me a bit biased.

dont you use phonetic alphabet 'zebra' then? sounds more like zee to me
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2014, 06:16:56 am »
dave, start pronouncing 'Z' like we do, 'zee'

I'm with Dave, but then again I'm an Amateur Radio operator, probably makes me a bit biased.

dont you use phonetic alphabet 'zebra' then? sounds more like zee to me

Z is Zulu.

I suggest you learn to cope with the proper pronounciation.
 

Offline Rufus

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2014, 06:17:13 am »
dave, start pronouncing 'Z' like we do, 'zee'

Because the world will surely fall apart if the alphabet song doesn't rhyme.
 

Offline Rutger

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2014, 06:26:09 am »
As the owner of DS1074z I am really getting lost in all those information. You say that ds1054z has a different intensity grading that ds1074z or 1104z ?
I think the last conclusion was that all models have identical HW, right ?

I am confused as well about the hardware differences, I think the hardware of the DS1074Z and the DS1054Z is the same (or similair) and that the Dave mentioned the grading isn't as good as the DS2000 series. Doesn't the DS1074z have 2 more buttons?

I have just noticed that on the Rigol website the product page for the DS1054Z they used a picture of the DS1104Z and it has one extra button above the input jack 2.
Even Rigol has now so many versions of the same scope that they only bother to take 1 picture. Maybe Rigol is also confused.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 06:36:25 am by Rutger »
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2014, 06:28:12 am »
Doesn't the DS1074z have 2 more buttons?

No. The -S model has one more button, the MSO1000Z has one more button, the MSO1000Z-S has two more buttons.
 

Offline Rutger

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2014, 06:49:25 am »
Ok, so if the hardware on the DS1054z and the DS1074z are identical, then why would anyone buy the DS1074z for $ 186 USD more? Because that is really not worth the extra 20MHz, plus after the upgrade/hack they are both at 100MHz.  Personally I think Rigol made a bit mistake releasing this scope at this price, they should have made it $ 499 USD, but I am not complaining.

Now they are hurting the sale of the DS1052E at $ 329 USD and DS1074Z at $ 580 USD, which both are now becoming a bad choice if you want your best bang for your buck.

From a business prospective they have left $ 100 on the table, I would have bought the unit if it was $ 499, heck I was ready to pay $ 580 for the same unit!
Also were are they going from here? If the DS1052E started at $ 800 and now is $ 329 (50% and more off). That would mean the DS1054Z will cost $ 199 in 4 years? CrazY!
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 08:05:54 am by Rutger »
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2014, 06:51:43 am »
Ok, so if the hardware on the DS1054z and the DS1074z are identical, they why would anyone buy the DS1074z for $ 181 USD more? Because that is really not worth the extra 20MHz, plus after the upgrade/hack they are both at 100MHz.

Because educational establishments and small businesses generally do not use keygens to unlock features.
 

Offline Warhawk

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #34 on: October 16, 2014, 07:22:21 am »
As the owner of DS1074z I am really getting lost in all those information. You say that ds1054z has a different intensity grading that ds1074z or 1104z ?
I think the last conclusion was that all models have identical HW, right ?

I am confused as well about the hardware differences, I think the hardware of the DS1074Z and the DS1054Z is the same (or similair) and that the Dave mentioned the grading isn't as good as the DS2000 series. Doesn't the DS1074z have 2 more buttons?

I have just noticed that on the Rigol website the product page for the DS1054Z they used a picture of the DS1104Z and it has one extra button above the input jack 2.
Even Rigol has now so many versions of the same scope that they only bother to take 1 picture. Maybe Rigol is also confused.

Well, as I said before. Yesterday, those two Rigol representatives had no idea about existence of DS1054z and it was very surprising for them that I know more about their scopes then they do (sometimes). Thanks eevblog !  :-+
Even though I consider them very new to their position (FAE & salesman) it was a pleasure to talk with them. For me it is somehow unbelievable how such a small company ("+400 people show") can do such nice products, especially considering the price point. Their spectrum analyser or RF generator were also very nice.

I also have a feeling that the "hack possibility" is a part of their business strategy. Just imagine what happens: They can sell maybe hundreds of ds1104z to some companies or universities but I am sure that they will sell thousands to hobbyists. They sell probably exactly same units, but officials will never do hacks. At least I can't imagine my company having a hacked scopes. Nobody would not even think about it.
The result is that when my FW colleague asked me for a cheap oscilloscope with a serial decoding, which he can have on his desk as long as project lasts, I would tell him "buy ds1104" because I know that he can easily afford it from his project budget and it works enough for him. That is the point. I mean I have ds1000 series at home, I know what it is capable of and I usually know what he needs. HAMEG3000 series is nice but it is a waste of money for someone who just needs an elementary functionality with eg. serial decoding trigger.

Of course I am not saying that RIGOL is the best. I just want to say that many high-end scopes are generally used whole lifecycle for elementary measurements only. It makes me sad when I see some of my FW colleagues desperately pushing the autoset button on our Waverunner 6zi trying to get a dutycycle measurement...

btw: I told them they should update their webpage and also put there a latest firmware !  8) ::)

 
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 07:24:06 am by Warhawk »
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #35 on: October 16, 2014, 07:48:15 am »
I am surprised the Wikipedia site for Rigol has one line
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigol
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Offline Bored@Work

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #36 on: October 16, 2014, 07:53:37 am »
For me it is somehow unbelievable how such a small company ("+400 people show") can do such nice products,
Since you also mentioned Hameg, you know that Hameg are only 60 persons? Before R&S bought them they were 120. R&S killed Hameg's own production, to get the cost down. So that's probably what the missing 60 persons were doing.

Quote
especially considering the price point.
That's the advantage of being in China.
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Offline Rutger

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #37 on: October 16, 2014, 08:13:49 am »
Here is my take on the Rigol selection guide;
 

Offline Warhawk

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #38 on: October 16, 2014, 08:27:49 am »
For me it is somehow unbelievable how such a small company ("+400 people show") can do such nice products,
Since you also mentioned Hameg, you know that Hameg are only 60 persons? Before R&S bought them they were 120. R&S killed Hameg's own production, to get the cost down. So that's probably what the missing 60 persons were doing.

Quote
especially considering the price point.
That's the advantage of being in China.

Quote
Hameg, you know that Hameg are only 60 persons?

I had no idea. I feel bad for them :-[ They did a good job with 3000 series.


Offline max666

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #39 on: October 16, 2014, 10:07:48 am »
What did Dave mean, when he said "Agilent really helped them out there and they are regretting that big time now"?
 

Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #40 on: October 16, 2014, 10:10:58 am »

I like the metal shileding of DS1054Z and metal rotary encoders. In Agilent scopes, they are plastic.  :( :(
I do not like the CapXon capacitors in the switched power supply. I have read bad reports about them.

Some day, the CapXons might go off and kill the motherboard. http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?p=39119
(In DS2000 there are EPCOS capacitors according to Dave's teardown.]
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 10:36:25 am by Hydrawerk »
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Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #41 on: October 16, 2014, 10:18:49 am »
What did Dave mean, when he said "Agilent really helped them out there and they are regretting that big time now"?
Agilent helped Rigol to launch production of Agilent DSO1000 and DSO3000. Rigol learned something and started production of their own scopes. Or something like that is how the story happened.
Amazing machines. http://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #42 on: October 16, 2014, 11:37:19 am »
I'm curious to see a DS1074Z-S teardown. Maybe we can mod the DS1054Z to add signal generation functionality  :o.

If you could enabled the option in software, then yes, that would be interesting. The hardware is likely FPGA based though, not just discrete hardware.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #43 on: October 16, 2014, 11:41:46 am »
Why is buying the 1052E crazy? Its now available for around half the price of the 1054Z
Nor really if we're talking about prices of brand-new units from rigol and like official distributors? Sure if you can find 1052E for a half of the price it's not crazy at all :)

If you absolutely only have that amount of cash, then yes, it's an option. The 1054Z is 10 times the scope for less than double the price.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #44 on: October 16, 2014, 11:42:23 am »
dave, start pronouncing 'Z' like we do, 'zee'

No.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #45 on: October 16, 2014, 11:44:44 am »
As the owner of DS1074z I am really getting lost in all those information. You say that ds1054z has a different intensity grading that ds1074z or 1104z ?
I think the last conclusion was that all models have identical HW, right ?

It is. All 1000Z's are the same. They are different from the DS2000.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #46 on: October 16, 2014, 11:51:46 am »
For me it is somehow unbelievable how such a small company ("+400 people show") can do such nice products, especially considering the price point. Their spectrum analyser or RF generator were also very nice.

They likely have the vast majority devoted to engineering and production, and not sales. Unlike other companies like my former employer Altium who had 300+ at one point and the number of programmers actually working on their one core product you could count on both hands.

Quote
I also have a feeling that the "hack possibility" is a part of their business strategy.

It's not. That comes directly from them.
They know they can't stop it, and they don't rarely care much because as much as we think it matters in our circles, and "everyone does it", the truth is vast majority of buyers do not even know the scope is hackable, and wouldn't do so even if they did.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #47 on: October 16, 2014, 11:55:26 am »
What did Dave mean, when he said "Agilent really helped them out there and they are regretting that big time now"?
Agilent helped Rigol to launch production of Agilent DSO1000 and DSO3000. Rigol learned something and started production of their own scopes. Or something like that is how the story happened.

Yes, Agilent bought Rigol on board to design and manufacture their low end scopes (the Agilent 3000 & 1000 series, not the 3000X series). And Agilent didn't just take it and rebadge it, they helped Rigol with design, production, and firmware quality systems. Now they have created a monster and they deeply regret it.


 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #48 on: October 16, 2014, 12:14:55 pm »
I'm curious to see a DS1074Z-S teardown. Maybe we can mod the DS1054Z to add signal generation functionality  :o.

If you could enabled the option in software, then yes, that would be interesting. The hardware is likely FPGA based though, not just discrete hardware.

Yup, reply #14 by hans, has pictures of the -S model with the daughter board featuring an Altera Cyclone IV EP4CE22F17C8N strange that it's an 8 class speed, it's the same FPGA as the DE0-Nano but class 8 instead of 6.
 

Offline EMC

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #49 on: October 16, 2014, 12:20:57 pm »
Teriffic teardown.  When a review unit becomes available I suggest a comparision of 3-5 like scopes would be better than a review.   When making the decision to buy a bench scope I am not just thinking "for my applications what can it do & how well does it perform"; I am also comparing to competitors.  For me this includes remote operation and automated testing.
 


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