Author Topic: EEVblog #708 - Free Energy BULLSHIT!  (Read 155462 times)

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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #708 - Free Energy BULLSHIT!
« Reply #250 on: January 28, 2015, 01:47:33 am »
Regarding the video please excuse my rough delivery. Thanks for watching... http://youtu.be/K6CpDaksxh0

Not rough at all, it's very good in fact, streets ahead of the majority of youtube content like this.
 

Offline Mr.B

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Re: EEVblog #708 - Free Energy BULLSHIT!
« Reply #251 on: January 28, 2015, 01:59:27 am »
I admire you people for trying to educate this DaveWing guy, however he is so brainwashed by his own lack of knowledge that you yourselves are wasting precious energy. Another guy out of the same mould as ManOfStone.
They honestly believe they have discovered the EE version of the Ark of the Covenant, or the Elixir of Life.
They have seen the magician perform his illusion and honestly believe it to be true…

I cannot be bothered wasting my time with these twits.

Video was a good laugh though, thanks Dave.

I am off to read some more EE informative threads…
I approach the thinking of all of my posts using AI in the first instance. (Awkward Irregularity)
 

Offline snoopy

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Re: EEVblog #708 - Free Energy BULLSHIT!
« Reply #252 on: January 28, 2015, 02:31:56 am »
I admire you people for trying to educate this DaveWing guy, however he is so brainwashed by his own lack of knowledge that you yourselves are wasting precious energy. Another guy out of the same mould as ManOfStone.
They honestly believe they have discovered the EE version of the Ark of the Covenant, or the Elixir of Life.
They have seen the magician perform his illusion and honestly believe it to be true…

I cannot be bothered wasting my time with these twits.

Video was a good laugh though, thanks Dave.

I am off to read some more EE informative threads…

So what's the problem then. Why don't these dudes take it to its logical conclusion and power their house with it ? What is stopping them ? Why make a big who-ha about powering up a few leds or a motor that couldn't pull the skin off a custard ?

cheers
 

Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: EEVblog #708 - Free Energy BULLSHIT!
« Reply #253 on: January 28, 2015, 02:33:47 am »
So what's the problem then. Why don't these dudes take it to its logical conclusion and power their house with it ? What is stopping them ? Why make a big who-ha about powering up a few leds or a motor that couldn't pull the skin off a custard ?
Thats exactly what I was thinking. Why are they fooling around with stilly YouTube videos when they could be out making money powering their whole neighborhood at practically 100% profit.
 

Offline snoopy

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Re: EEVblog #708 - Free Energy BULLSHIT!
« Reply #254 on: January 28, 2015, 02:38:02 am »
So what's the problem then. Why don't these dudes take it to its logical conclusion and power their house with it ? What is stopping them ? Why make a big who-ha about powering up a few leds or a motor that couldn't pull the skin off a custard ?
Thats exactly what I was thinking. Why are they fooling around with stilly YouTube videos when they could be out making money powering their whole neighborhood at practically 100% profit.

But there's always that caveat about having to raise more money to get to the next step of making a bigger one ;)
 

Offline DaveWing

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Re: EEVblog #708 - Free Energy BULLSHIT!
« Reply #255 on: January 28, 2015, 02:40:21 am »
If you do a total accounting of the energy present in the system at the start and the energy present in the system at the end, the energy at the end will be less than the energy at the start by the amount of energy lost to the environment.

And to do that you could discharge the batteries completely after the test and log the results to find out how much energy was left in them. And along with knowing how much energy was in the original batteries to begin with, and also the log of the load power over time, you'll get the result as IanB states.
For a ballpark measurement you could likely ignore the battery and charging losses.
DaveWing should do this before talking any more about this subject, it's just getting painful.

Hi Admin,

Sorry for the pain you receive on my account.

I tried to make a video as per your request.
In any event I hope that this video will help me to understand some of my misconceptions. So here it is please offer up any comments all are welcome to put in their two cents... As they have so done before.


Here is two diagrams one of a conventional system and the other is... After watching the video... Well you decide.

Regarding the video please excuse my rough delivery. Thanks for watching... http://youtu.be/K6CpDaksxh0



-Dave Wing

What you didn't show, but rather conveniently assumed, is what happens when you actually do put those caps in series and re-inject the circuit. Sure, you get 24V, but putting those three caps in series might give you 24V but the capacitance is now only 3,333uF.

You need two equations, one for the energy held in a capacitor given its capacitance and the voltage across its terminals, and one for calculating the capacitance of several caps in series.

Your setup loses 2/3rds of its energy mostly in the light bulb.

See here:



Thank you for the reply.

I am not an engineer so there are quite a few things that are out of my knowledge base.  So forgive me for my short comings in that area.

Ok to clear some things up which may not make much of a difference in the calculations I was using 35volt 15000 uf caps in the test.

I also tried putting the load and the switch across the negative side and the voltage on each cap is now on average 9.35volts... That changes things a little... But not much.

Another thing I noticed is that the test works the same even if I just used a copper wire instead of the light bulb it was still around 9.35 volts in each cap.

-Dave Wing

 

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Re: EEVblog #708 - Free Energy BULLSHIT!
« Reply #256 on: January 28, 2015, 02:59:50 am »
So what's the problem then. Why don't these dudes take it to its logical conclusion and power their house with it ? What is stopping them ? Why make a big who-ha about powering up a few leds or a motor that couldn't pull the skin off a custard ?
Thats exactly what I was thinking. Why are they fooling around with stilly YouTube videos when they could be out making money powering their whole neighborhood at practically 100% profit.

Because they're never quite there yet - they can see the edge of the goal (be it over-unity or power 'recovery'), but it always needs just a little more experimenting to make it worthwhile.

The crazier more paranoid ones are convinced there's a massive conspiracy to silence the inventors and hide the evidence.

(I sometimes wonder about the second: if there were a conspiracy, why would they dick around warning/threatening/harassing people rather than just disappear them? And if they did, how would you tell the difference between that happening and, say, someone who just went bush to selfishly live like a king* in their own little free-energy paradise?)

(* Or alternately - since the crowd usually attribute nothing but the highest of motives to the inventors - realising that their invention would cause untold disruption to the world economy, and choosing to hide themselves and their invention to save untold misery to billions of people...)
 

Online IanB

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Re: EEVblog #708 - Free Energy BULLSHIT!
« Reply #257 on: January 28, 2015, 03:28:55 am »
Another thing I noticed is that the test works the same even if I just used a copper wire instead of the light bulb it was still around 9.35 volts in each cap.

This was a valuable observation, and it has something important to tell us.

Let's do some math with your experiment:

We will assume in our experiment that we have a 10,000 µF capacitor charged up to 24 V. There is a formula for how much charge this capacitor is holding, and it is the voltage times the capacitance. So we can say the stored charge is Q1:

    Q1 = 24 V * 10,000 µF = 240,000 µC

(Don't worry what a µC is, let's just say it is a measure of electric charge.)

In our experiment, let us connect this capacitor to another identical capacitor so that the voltages equalize. We will find now that each capacitor is charged to 12 V (in a perfect world). The charge stored in each capacitor is given by the same formula, only now there are two capacitors, so the total charge is twice the charge on one capacitor. Let's call the total charge Q2:

    Q2 = 2 * 12 V * 10,000 µF = 240,000 µC

It's just the same as before! So maybe we have not lost anything?

If we put a bulb in the circuit when we connect the capacitors together, the bulb will light up and give us useful light, and still we will have the same total charge left at the end. It sure seems like we have got something for nothing, does it not?

But as you can tell, there is a "but" coming. Let's rewind the experiment and look at the but.

When we look at the first capacitor, the total charge is not the important thing, the total stored energy is the important thing. The total stored energy is given by a different formula, involving the square of the voltage. The energy, E1, stored in the first capacitor, is this:

    E1 = 0.5 * 10,000 µF * 24 V * 24 V = 2,880,000 µJ = 2.88 J

Here, the "J" means joules, a unit of energy. Energy is what we pay for when we buy electricity from the utility company, only they measure it by kilowatt-hours, or kWh. It's the same thing though.

Let's now see what we have after we join the capacitors together and equalize them. The new energy E2, is this:

    E2 = 2 * 0.5 * 10,000 µF * 12 V * 12 V = 1.44 J

Look what happened. It is only half the energy we started with! We have "lost" half of our valuable energy.

Where did it go? It was wasted, in fact. Lost as heat due to the resistance in the wires.

If we want to recover our lost energy, we need to put that bulb in the circuit. Then at least the bulb will convert some of the lost energy into useful light.

So how can we summarize this experiment? It tells us, not how much energy can we conserve, but rather, how much energy can we avoid wasting!

There is a rule of thumb in engineering that often applies. The more complex you make a system, the more waste you are likely to get. Very often, simplest is best.

If you want light, connect your bulb to the power source directly and maximize your light.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 03:31:26 am by IanB »
 

Offline Smokey

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Re: EEVblog #708 - Free Energy BULLSHIT!
« Reply #258 on: January 28, 2015, 04:00:30 am »
Has this thread taken an interesting turn towards the light??  It almost appears like you guys are making some progress.

I have a few questions for DaveWing......
Questions:
After having read people's explanations here, some of them very good, very detailed, and very to the point......
1) What unanswered questions do you still have?  People have specifically addressed a lot of the things you brought up.
2) What parts of your circuit do you still think are working differently than what people have explained?

3a) What (if anything) would it take to convince you that your device doesn't work like you thought it did? 
3b) Or can you admit that there is absolutely no evidence we could possibly present you here that would change your mind?

::EDIT:: to add question #4

4) If you are actually a super smart EE and just trolling because you knew you could get people do pages and pages of math and explanations to try to show you what's going on...... where and when would you like to accept your trophy for troll of the century?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 04:05:48 am by Smokey »
 

Online IanB

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Re: EEVblog #708 - Free Energy BULLSHIT!
« Reply #259 on: January 28, 2015, 04:35:22 am »
4) If you are actually a super smart EE and just trolling because you knew you could get people do pages and pages of math and explanations to try to show you what's going on...... where and when would you like to accept your trophy for troll of the century?

This actually doesn't matter too much, since someone, somewhere out there may read this thread and find it useful.
 

Offline BlueBill

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Re: EEVblog #708 - Free Energy BULLSHIT!
« Reply #260 on: January 28, 2015, 04:43:11 am »
You're reading a new Troll in our midst and a group of people who don't know better than to NOT feed a Troll.

Feeding trolls can be entertaining. Like feeding chimpanzees at the zoo...

Just watch out when they fling their poo at you.
 

Offline Don Hills

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Re: EEVblog #708 - Free Energy BULLSHIT!
« Reply #261 on: January 28, 2015, 05:02:06 am »
...
I am not an engineer so there are quite a few things that are out of my knowledge base.  So forgive me for my short comings in that area.
...

Is that why you can't help me to understand what you're saying?

Dave Wing, I'm trying to understand your circuit.
...
 

Offline DaveWing

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Re: EEVblog #708 - Free Energy BULLSHIT!
« Reply #262 on: January 28, 2015, 05:25:28 am »
Has this thread taken an interesting turn towards the light??  It almost appears like you guys are making some progress.

I have a few questions for DaveWing......
Questions:
After having read people's explanations here, some of them very good, very detailed, and very to the point......
1) What unanswered questions do you still have?  People have specifically addressed a lot of the things you brought up.
2) What parts of your circuit do you still think are working differently than what people have explained?

3a) What (if anything) would it take to convince you that your device doesn't work like you thought it did? 
3b) Or can you admit that there is absolutely no evidence we could possibly present you here that would change your mind?

::EDIT:: to add question #4

4) If you are actually a super smart EE and just trolling because you knew you could get people do pages and pages of math and explanations to try to show you what's going on...... where and when would you like to accept your trophy for troll of the century?

1)I do have more questions but will as them as they come about, I am thankful for everyone's help in this learning process.

2) I see what others are saying and it seems to me to be truth.

3) That circuit still has me a little confused... As the light bulb has the same results as a copper wire does, they both fill the capacitors to 9.3volts respectively. Why is there not more of a loss with a resistive light bulb than a 13awg copper wire you would use in house wiring? That one I do not understand. I will do the tests though to find out. If anyone can answer this please let me know.

3b)I am a man that listens to reason and will go where the truth is.

4) As I said before I am not an engineer.

-Dave Wing
 

Online IanB

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Re: EEVblog #708 - Free Energy BULLSHIT!
« Reply #263 on: January 28, 2015, 06:03:28 am »
3) That circuit still has me a little confused... As the light bulb has the same results as a copper wire does, they both fill the capacitors to 9.3volts respectively. Why is there not more of a loss with a resistive light bulb than a 13awg copper wire you would use in house wiring? That one I do not understand. I will do the tests though to find out. If anyone can answer this please let me know.

It's like if you had a tank containing 1000 gallons of water 100 ft up a hill, and an empty tank at the bottom. The water at the top of the hill has 100 ft of head you could use to do something useful like drive a turbine or turn a water wheel. If you did this, if you piped the water down the hill and drove a turbine, you would have got some useful work out of the water. When you finished you would still have exactly 1000 gallons of water at the bottom of the hill. None of it would be lost, only it would no longer be able to drive the turbine. Your turbine in this example is the load, like the bulb.

Now suppose if instead of running a turbine, you just used a big fat pipe to let the water flow down to the bottom of the hill. Your big fat pipe is like your copper wire. When you are finished you would still have exactly 1000 gallons of water at the bottom of the hill. Not a drop of water different than if it went through the turbine on the way. And you would have given up exactly the same amount of energy: 100 ft of head times 1000 gallons gone to waste.

You can run this experiment any which way, do anything with the water on its journey, but you will always get 1000 gallons in your tank at the bottom of the hill when you are finished (assuming no leaks, of course). Thus it is with the capacitors. You are always going to get 9.3 volts.
 

Offline rs20

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Re: EEVblog #708 - Free Energy BULLSHIT!
« Reply #264 on: January 28, 2015, 07:04:28 am »
It's like if you had a tank containing 1000 gallons of water 100 ft up a hill, ...

And to complete the analogy, in the case where there is no turbine, just a big fat pipe, where does all the gravitational potential energy of the water go? Into sound & heat generated ("wasted") as the water rushes through the fat pipe and slams into the walls of the tank.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #708 - Free Energy BULLSHIT!
« Reply #265 on: January 28, 2015, 07:48:20 am »
IF you were a Troll and wanted to bait people into responding, what is the most effective way to do that?

A. Give them an opportunity to tell you why/how you are wrong.

Just look at the posts and see how the early ones got people hooked by the "free-energy" worm. Then came the denials of free-energy followed by a sequence of questions to reel people in.  Then you go on stringing them along.

If you want to put it more crudely. Add shit and stir.

Yep. I notice he's VERY selective in what posts he responds to.

It's an elaborate troll, folks. Give it up.

Think: What sort of person could make that video (using that equipment) but claim to not understand the formula for energy stored in a capacitor ("I am not an engineer")...? There's only one answer.


 

Offline PA4TIM

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Re: EEVblog #708 - Free Energy BULLSHIT!
« Reply #266 on: January 28, 2015, 09:54:52 am »
That wondered me too, he has two Keithley 199 benchmeters.  Not something people with almost no electronics knowledge would buy.

I have seen more discussions about this. You can explain until the end of times but their problem is a lack of knowledge about electronic fundamentals. They often know enough to impress buddies or fix a TV or whatever, but for this subject they need to know a lot more fundamentle things to understand what we tell.

The analogies are nice but do not fill the gap. We think, yep, that is what happens and see the battery, the formula's and what our instruments would give in this case, he only sees water coming through a tube from the mountain because he does not know what things like energy, charge, mass, capacitance, etc really are. He does not really know how the battery works. What a vlotdrop over a component can tell you, what the function of voltage and current is and how all these things mix with jouls, coulombs, or power. He does not know about the mechanical force between plates of a capacitor, the chemical and electrical process inside a battery, the difference between resistance, reactance and impedance, about electic and magnetic field,  transfering or radiating energy, basic laws etc etc.

When there is pulsing he does not know about ESL, ringing, EMF, radiation loss. He does not know about crest factors, pulses containing a lot of frequency components , AC+DC TRMS meters needed with enough bandwidth, why those keithley 199 meters do not work for pulsed signals.

I remember learning about RF. Things like reflection where so way off that I could not imagin it, I had not enough knowledge at that time to take that step. So I was convinced everybody must be having it wrong.  I did experiments, hoping that showed my theory was right. I'm glad I had a very patient tutor and was very open minded so now I can laugh about the weird ideas I had back then. I just missed to much basic knowledge. Later when I studied about component behaviour, paracitics, AC theory and network analysis all things fell on the right place. It was worth the years of study and I'm still learning new things every day.

Fred

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www.pa4tim.nl my collection measurement gear and experiments Also lots of info about network analyse
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https://www.youtube.com/user/pa4tim my youtube channel
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: EEVblog #708 - Free Energy BULLSHIT!
« Reply #267 on: January 28, 2015, 10:18:15 am »

I am not an engineer so there are quite a few things that are out of my knowledge base.  So forgive me for my short comings in that area.

Ok to clear some things up which may not make much of a difference in the calculations I was using 35volt 15000 uf caps in the test.

I also tried putting the load and the switch across the negative side and the voltage on each cap is now on average 9.35volts... That changes things a little... But not much.

Another thing I noticed is that the test works the same even if I just used a copper wire instead of the light bulb it was still around 9.35 volts in each cap.

-Dave Wing

You don't need to be an engineer, all you need is the maths you were taught by the time you were about 13 or 14 and the two equations I gave you namely

E = 1/2 * C * V^2

And

1/Ctot = 1/C1 + 1/C2 + 1/C3 ...

for caps in series

You now have all the equations you need. Now go and make a video of your full experiment putting the caps in series back into the system and apply that high school maths and it will become clear.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #708 - Free Energy BULLSHIT!
« Reply #268 on: January 28, 2015, 10:41:22 am »
That wondered me too, he has two Keithley 199 benchmeters.  Not something people with almost no electronics knowledge would buy.

I have seen more discussions about this. You can explain until the end of times but their problem is a lack of knowledge about electronic fundamentals.

You don't have to be an engineering major to do basic arithmetic (and basic arithmetic is all that's needed to explain his video).

Question: Ask yourself why there's three capacitors in his video and not just two. Two would work just as well for "energy recovery", right?.

Answer: To get the sum of voltages very close to 25 at the end of the video (25 was the initial voltage so the system must therefore be close to unity! TADA!)

(Four capacitors might be "over unity" using his math. I wonder why he hasn't done that yet? He's had 16 years to try that simple modification... ::) )

« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 10:43:20 am by Fungus »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #708 - Free Energy BULLSHIT!
« Reply #269 on: January 28, 2015, 10:49:07 am »
You don't need to be an engineer, all you need is the maths you were taught by the time you were about 13 or 14...

...that, and also not be a troll.
 

Offline DaveWing

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Re: EEVblog #708 - Free Energy BULLSHIT!
« Reply #270 on: January 28, 2015, 11:46:57 am »
To clear a couple of things up... Here is where I am going with all this.

Here is a patent that covers what we are discussing on this site...
http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Patents/Benitez/GB191514311A.pdf

And here is a magazine article that is based upon the work of Ronald Brandt... Ronald approached John Bedini in the early 80's with a rough drawing of what he had seen in a car somewhere and asked John to make a solid state version... Which John made for him and demonstrated at the 1984 Tesla symposium.
http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/29447301

John Bedini also has a two DVD set that tells one how to build a working device. Found here...
http://www.energyfromthevacuum.com/DVDListforpurchase.htm

Eike Mueller also did some basic experimentation with the circuit at John Bedini's shop some time ago.
http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/MUELLER_EXPERIMENTS_KROMREY_BRANDT_TESLA_BEDINI.pdf

-Dave Wing
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 02:10:57 pm by DaveWing »
 

Offline DaveWing

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Re: EEVblog #708 - Free Energy BULLSHIT!
« Reply #271 on: January 28, 2015, 11:53:57 am »
3) That circuit still has me a little confused... As the light bulb has the same results as a copper wire does, they both fill the capacitors to 9.3volts respectively. Why is there not more of a loss with a resistive light bulb than a 13awg copper wire you would use in house wiring? That one I do not understand. I will do the tests though to find out. If anyone can answer this please let me know.

It's like if you had a tank containing 1000 gallons of water 100 ft up a hill, and an empty tank at the bottom. The water at the top of the hill has 100 ft of head you could use to do something useful like drive a turbine or turn a water wheel. If you did this, if you piped the water down the hill and drove a turbine, you would have got some useful work out of the water. When you finished you would still have exactly 1000 gallons of water at the bottom of the hill. None of it would be lost, only it would no longer be able to drive the turbine. Your turbine in this example is the load, like the bulb.

Now suppose if instead of running a turbine, you just used a big fat pipe to let the water flow down to the bottom of the hill. Your big fat pipe is like your copper wire. When you are finished you would still have exactly 1000 gallons of water at the bottom of the hill. Not a drop of water different than if it went through the turbine on the way. And you would have given up exactly the same amount of energy: 100 ft of head times 1000 gallons gone to waste.

You can run this experiment any which way, do anything with the water on its journey, but you will always get 1000 gallons in your tank at the bottom of the hill when you are finished (assuming no leaks, of course). Thus it is with the capacitors. You are always going to get 9.3 volts.

Thank you for the reply...What I was getting at is a light bulb gives off heat and light yet in this circuit there is no difference in the total finishing voltage in all capacitors in the system between a 13 awg wire and the light bulb. How is that possible under conventional engineering laws? That is what I do not understand. People say a light bulb uses energy yet it appears not to in this circuit.

-Dave Wing

 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #708 - Free Energy BULLSHIT!
« Reply #272 on: January 28, 2015, 12:13:44 pm »
How is that possible under conventional engineering laws?

Here is your entire problem in a nutshell, and everyone else who believes in overunity et.al
You are under the assumption that it is possible for things to happen outside of conventional engineering laws. It's not, ever.
And the instant you say things like that is the instant people start to not take you seriously or think you are crackpot etc.
In today's modern world with our understanding of almost everything in basic practical macro fundamental engineering and physics, that has been built thoroughly on hundreds of years of research and theory, it's nigh on impossible for an individual in their garage to prove the basic laws wrong in any way.
I know it's a wet dream every naive garage tinkerer has, but you just have to let it go.
To be taken seriously you need to change how you look at these things.
In this case when you measure something you don't understand, start by asking "so what is the engineering laws or theory that explains this?"
Hint - its really really helps if you start by understanding and trusting the basic laws like conservation of energy.
Sorry to be blunt, but it has to be said, this phrase is a massive red flag that will get you nowhere in any proper technical forum.
 

Offline firebox121

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Re: EEVblog #708 - Free Energy BULLSHIT!
« Reply #273 on: January 28, 2015, 12:56:02 pm »
@Dave Wing

To determine energy and power you need more than just voltage, this is part of your misunderstanding. The water potential example is particularly good and should help with an intuitive understanding. However, you also need to acquire an understanding of the physics, associated equations and how they apply them in a real world situation.

I had a quick look at the article you reference and unfortunately the content was lacking, it misused standard physics/engineering words and phrases. There was absolutely no intellectual rigour to any of the content. To progress further you need to try and gain an appreciation of intellectual rigour, which is contained in some of the replies to your questions. 

PS I've found this thread interesting and it was persuaded me for the first time to register and comment. It's been interesting, not just explaining electrical engineering concepts, but also psychology of believers.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #708 - Free Energy BULLSHIT!
« Reply #274 on: January 28, 2015, 01:01:35 pm »
Thank you for the reply...What I was getting at is a light bulb gives off heat and light yet in this circuit there is no difference in the total finishing voltage in all capacitors in the system between a 13 awg wire and the light bulb. How is that possible under conventional engineering laws? People say a light bulb uses energy yet it appears not to in this circuit.

Either:
a) It's a magic light bulb
or
b) The light bulb uses less energy than you imagine, the 13 awg wire uses more energy than you imagine, your measurements aren't accurate enough, you need to measure more things (eg. capacitor temperatures), or ... any number of perfectly good 'conventional engineering' explanations.

Explanations which you're willfully choosing to ignore.

Hint: You're going to keep on looking like an idiot/troll and not be taken seriously until you stop ignoring them and change your default position away from 'it must be magic!'
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 01:04:49 pm by Fungus »
 


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