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Author Topic: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)  (Read 1846172 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2015, 06:06:54 PM »
Finally no specific comments on the size of the thing, granted it might be very small and thin... but it will definitely extend the length of the battery by, I'm guessing 0.5 - 1.0 mm maybe more, well I have several products where the battery contacts are a tight fit on a standard (non batterised) battery, so how many products this stupid device will actually fit into remains to be seen.

Yes, remains to be seen what the production version can and can't fit into. If it's 0.1mm as claimed then that should be good enough for a majority of products?
 

Offline G7PSK

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2015, 06:15:57 PM »
I find that many products battery holders are already a tight fit for the battery so the extra length from one of these will prevent the insertion of the battery.
At one time (in the 60's) I used U2 (D size now) in a torch and when the bulb dimmed to a point where the torch was useless I would put the batteries into a transistor radio which would run for month's on what was otherwise a dead set of batteries, this was down to the inherent rise in internal resistance of the batteries of the time. 
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 06:18:11 PM by G7PSK »
 

Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2015, 06:17:44 PM »
I didn't read the literature but if the technology is so good then why stay small,
example ; Solar System Batteries, Rechargeable Cars, UPS Batteries. etc.

Did somebody mention a dastardly plan..... :-//

Muttley

Miniature, yes now I see, anyway I got a good dig at Canon, been wanting to get that out for a while.

« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 06:29:32 PM by Muttley Snickers »
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2015, 06:19:47 PM »
I didn't read the literature but if the technology is so good then why stay small,
example ; Solar System Batteries, Rechargeable Cars, UPS Batteries. etc.

Their key tech seems to be in ultra militarisation, something you don't really need for that big boy stuff.
 

Offline fubar.gr

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2015, 06:35:45 PM »
I didn't read the literature but if the technology is so good then why stay small,
example ; Solar System Batteries, Rechargeable Cars, UPS Batteries. etc.

Did somebody mention a dastardly plan..... :-//

Muttley

Miniature, yes now I see, anyway I got a good dig at Canon, been wanting to get that out for a while.
The whole concept is about draining the last drop out of primary batteries. Doing that on rechargeables doesnt make sense. It would simply kill the battery.

Offline coppice

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2015, 06:45:11 PM »
That prof should not be allowed to teach anymore..  Clearly he is not teaching critical thinking to his students if he cannot practice it himself.
If you applied a little critical thinking you should realise that you have no idea of the context in which that professor said anything.
 

Offline Zeph

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2015, 06:45:38 PM »
There are a few issues you didn't mention.

As you have described, most devices will work down to 1.0-1.1v/cell. 

Consider (using simple figures) a battery depleted to 1.0v/cell and still working in the device, at say 100ma.  Insert the batterizer and the voltage gets boosted to 1.5v/cell - but that extra 0.5V/cell is probably going to be wasted as heat!  Meanwhile even if the boost converter was 100% efficient, you'd be draining the battery at [email protected] to produce [email protected] with the device using only 1.0v of that - a major efficiency loss!  Add in real world boost converter efficiency (in such a tiny space at such a low cost) and the situation is probably much worse, say 200 to 300ma (75-50% boost efficiency)  from the battery to produce 100ma to the device.

And it gets worse.  With that 150-300ma coming from the battery, you waste more power as heat through the battery's ESR resistance, and due to that and battery chemistry the battery voltage drops further, raising the input/output current ratios further even at the same boost efficiency, but the boost efficiency probably decreases as well.

And - look at the battery curves - as you increase the current drawn, you move to the steeper discharge curves on the left.  You show the wasted power as the area to the right of the cutoff voltage box *at the same current*, but instead consider transposing the steeper curves to that location (to the right of the box).

In the best case, the device itself is using a switching regulator, such that it will draw less current as the input voltage rises, so not all of that extra voltage (eg: raising battery 1.0v up to 1.5v to device) is wasted as heat.  But then we have the tiny Batterizer switching regulator feeding the device switching regulator; even in this best case, you are wasting power rather than saving it.

The only niche I can see is an old device which really does need 1.4v/cell input, where even will all the losses of the Batterizer, you might actually get enough gain from extracting more battery juice to have a modest net gain in total results.  Not 800% of course.

And - discharging the cells to low voltage may make them more likely to leak.  Not as bad aa pitfall s the shorting you mention (or mechanically jamming in tight battery cases), but another downside.

---

One other niche - using 1.2v rechargables in a device which needs higher voltage (at modest currents).  We all know of some devices which haven't worked well with rechargeables, so this is a more common use case.  However if it really discharges the battery to 0.6v, that's going to damage some rechargables.  If this boosted 1.0-1.3v to 1.5v with high efficiency and cut off at 1.0v (or 1.1 or 1.05v) to protect the battery, it might actually have a meaningful use, oddly enough - adapting some devices to use NiMH batteries.
 

Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2015, 06:49:46 PM »
@fubar.gr
Yes, you make a fair point, I just thought that if you were going to milk a battery to death then why not go the whole hog.

Muttley
« Last Edit: February 13, 2016, 01:06:37 PM by Muttley Snickers »
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Offline KedasProbe

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2015, 07:23:25 PM »
BOOBIES on the calculator.  :-+
Baloney! they are not real.
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
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Online Rerouter

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2015, 07:43:10 PM »
how easily recognizable the sound of someone performing a face-palm is via audio only has made me reflect on the people i spend time with...

If the battery has already drained below the low voltage cutoff, then and only then would i support the product, and they entirely could have marketed it as that and still made a profit (maybe less of one), if its efficiency at very low loads isnt too horrible, i may even buy one, just disappointing in the marketing approach,
 

Offline dexters_lab

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2015, 08:17:27 PM »
great video Dave  :-+

will be interesting to see these tested... properly
"A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2015, 08:29:30 PM »
If the battery has already drained below the low voltage cutoff, then and only then would i support the product, and they entirely could have marketed it as that and still made a profit (maybe less of one), if its efficiency at very low loads isnt too horrible, i may even buy one, just disappointing in the marketing approach,

I agree. Could have been a successful without all the exaggeration. People sell boost converters like this, just not in this funky form factor, that alone would put them a head in this game.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2015, 08:30:03 PM »
will be interesting to see these tested... properly

Delivery in September apparently.
 

Offline ErikI

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2015, 08:34:14 PM »
Maybe someone has mentioned it and I missed it, but there is another downside to this product.
As most of the battery indicators and low battery warning systems are based on measuring the voltage of the battery, they will not work anymore due to the 1.5V constant voltage.
So you will get no warning that your battery is close to being dead and the device will just die suddenly.
A major downside in my mind.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2015, 08:45:37 PM »
So you will get no warning that your battery is close to being dead and the device will just die suddenly.
A major downside in my mind.

Yes, I forgot to mention this. i added it in annotation. I agree, a huge downside, your product will show 100% battery and then just fail instantly.
 

Offline good_cap/bad_cap

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2015, 08:48:15 PM »
I think leakage could be another issue if you run down batteries that low... (?) It could damage both the batteriser and the device drive by it.
 

Online 0xdeadbeef

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2015, 08:49:31 PM »
I wonder if I'm the only one to notice that even the basic mathematics are wrong?
If "usually" 80% are thrown away and this product could use all of these remaining 80%, it would extend the battery life from 20% to 100%.
This is a factor of 5, not 8. When we use a comparative as in "more" (capacity) or "longer" (time), the original capacity/runtime would be extended by 400%.

E.g. let's assume a toy bunny that could drum 100 hours if every bit of capacity in its batteries was used, but because of the 20% assumption it would "usually" stop after 20 hours.
Now with the magic device, the bunny could drum 100 hours, which means that it can drum five time as long:
The improved capacity would be 500% of the originally usable capacity.
However, if we are talking about much longer the bunny can drum, it's 80 hours longer which is a plus of 400%:
The capacity would be improved by 400% of the originally usable capacity.

Even ignoring all the other stuff, there is no way that the runtime of any device could be increased by 800% with the "only 20% used" assumption.
To justify a "8 times as long" claim, the usable capacity would have to be 12.5% (100%/8).
To justify a "8 times longer" claim, the usable capacity would have to be 11.11% (100%/9).
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 09:03:23 PM by 0xdeadbeef »
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Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2015, 08:59:54 PM »
I think that the specific application would need to be considered, for instance if I were 1500 meters from a recharging station and couldn't get a tow then I would  have no hesitation in pressing the ULDO Bypass button, and neither would Scotty if the captain needed phasers.

Muttley

« Last Edit: February 13, 2016, 01:05:39 PM by Muttley Snickers »
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Offline Delta

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #44 on: June 05, 2015, 11:33:38 PM »
Great video Dave. Classic EEVblog! 😀
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #45 on: June 06, 2015, 12:17:53 AM »
From http://www.recyclinginternational.com/recycling-news/8815/e-scrap-and-batteries/united-states/bringing-used-batteries-back-dead

"This innovation could spell bad news for a world battery industry worth nearly US$ 90 billion. It also has the potential, say the researchers, to shrink the annual volume of battery waste in landfills by a factor of eight." These "researchers" or the media are speaking frogshit.

It reminded me of the famous car racing driver Peter Brock and his :bullshit: Energy Polarizer. He believed the Energy Polariser (containing crystals and a magnet) would align the molecules of the car. :-DD

More frogshit...
A bloke down the road actually told me that Herbal Life products cures cancer, but the doctors are all keeping it secret because they would lose money from the cancer business.  :palm:
An ELECTRONIC ENGINEER told me flaxseed oil cures cancer, but the doctors are all keeping it secret because they would lose money from the cancer business. :palm:
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 02:41:08 PM by VK3DRB »
 

Offline zapta

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #46 on: June 06, 2015, 12:38:49 AM »
Dave, at the ~6.20 mark you ignored the '... to many devices' part of the sentence.

Another saving can come from lower current at the high voltage period of the battery life, assuming high dc/dc efficiency.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 12:42:06 AM by zapta »
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Offline Artlav

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #47 on: June 06, 2015, 01:48:58 AM »
I wonder why haven't they made a real product instead, namely boosting a NiMH battery from 1.2V to 1.4V?

Many things don't work too well on rechargeables, and many people don't pay attention to them enough to stop using them before they are below the safe discharge voltage.

Make a Batteriser-like clip on for a rechargeable battery that boosts it to 1.4V and cuts off at 0.8V cell voltage, and you'd have a real, good and useful product that will easily extend rechargeable battery total life by a couple factors on average, and discharge time by a good fraction quite likely.

Instead, they go for a pure scam.
Just why...?
Hacking the universe since 2008
 

Online ebastler

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #48 on: June 06, 2015, 02:11:36 AM »
Hey, I am convinced the Batteriser will work as advertised! Just look at their claim 1 of their patent application, https://www.google.com/patents/US20120121943:

Quote
A battery sleeve for extending the operational life of one or more batteries, comprising:
a positive conductive electrode; and
an insulating layer extending below the conductive electrode such that when the sleeve is coupled to a battery, the positive conductive electrode is positioned above the positive terminal of the battery with the insulating layer electrically isolating the positive conductive electrode from the positive terminal of the battery.

Just insert an insulator between the battery terminal and the connected device. Darn if that doesn't extend the battery life by at least 800%! :-DD

(Yes, I know. It's just a patent application, and you always start with ridiculously broad claims -- gotta try what you can get away with... But I have not seen a claim construction this ridiculuos in a while!)
 

Offline tchicago

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #49 on: June 06, 2015, 02:26:33 AM »
Folks, remember good ole days of cell phone "antenna boosters"? When every single average Joe was truly convinced that attaching a sticker to the cellphone was drastically improving the cellphone reception. And it was impossible to prove otherwise, because "my cell reception just became a lot better". Oh, yeah, and you were supposed to attach the sticker under the battery.

Those were the days... and they are coming back. There is some psychological phenomenon of trying to justify a purchase even if it was a complete mistake. Bread and butter for scammers of all kinds.

V2 product will probably be inserted between the smartphone battery and the smartphone.  :-DD  The smartphone discharge pattern is highly randomized by a lot of external factors, so even though the device will do exactly nothing, it will be hard to make a valid before/after battery life comparison outside the electronics lab.
 


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