EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[Fungus]

Personally I don't think it's that strange that they try something to get people post video's. It should help to get the buzz going. It's not that strange from a marketing point of view, also the fact the winner has to hand over his rights to the footage is not that weird.

I'm actually more surprised that Bob did not advertise this contest better.

You mean before people had their Batteroos? 

[onlooker]

I tested the two AA batteries in my wireless keyboard.  They both showed 1.427v.  I placed the Batteroo sleeves on them and tested again.  Both showed 1.516v.  I am optimistic that these products work as advertised but I'll know for sure a year from now if my keyboard battery level still shows "100%".

Apparently, such misunderstanding of energy vs voltage is a wide spread thing.

I explain the difference to my son using the  example of a small 1.5V button battery vs a 1.5V AA battery. Both are 1.5V, but can drive the train or whatever for very different amount of time, since they contain very different amount of energy.

In a simplified explanation, what batterizer does is to make a "dead" battery acting like a very small button battery; it shows 1.5V, but cannot last very long; once the battery is really dead, batterizer will no longer work.

Then, as we have already seen in various tests, in reality and in general, the batterizer did worse than making a "dead" battery acting like a very small 1.5V battery.

[AlxDroidDev]

Complementing onlooker's good post above:

Not only the batterizer did perform WORSE than a regular battery, it did fail to meet the first of its claims: to extract every last drop of juice from a battery (aka "chemical energy"), and Dave proved this failure on the live feed last night.

People - and here I include the so-called Batteroo engineers (engineers my ass!) - are unable to tell the difference between voltage and stored energy. Onlooker's example, a cell battery X an AA battery is a great example, does describe that very well, and one has obviously a lot more energy than the other, even although the voltage is the same.

A drop in stored energy doesn't necessarily mean a drop in voltage, and alkaline batteries are such an example: they present a flat 1.5V line until their stored chemical energy is way below a certain threshold. Bringing that voltage back to 1.5V is easy, but that doesn't increase the stored energy, because it isn't changing the chemicals of the battery in any way.

Again, increasing a battery's voltage doesn't increase the energy it holds: that cannot be changed on non-rechargeable batteries, and buyers of batterpoop should be aware of that. Voltage and energy are different things.

[DavidD345]

Complementing onlooker's good post above:

Not only the batterizer did perform WORSE than a regular battery, it did fail to meet the first of its claims: to extract every last drop of juice from a battery (aka "chemical energy"), and Dave proved this failure on the live feed last night.

People - and here I include the so-called Batteroo engineers (engineers my ass!) - are unable to tell the difference between voltage and stored energy. Onlooker's example, a cell battery X an AA battery is a great example, does describe that very well, and one has obviously a lot more energy than the other, even although the voltage is the same.

A drop in stored energy doesn't necessarily mean a drop in voltage, and alkaline batteries are such an example: they present a flat 1.5V line until their stored chemical energy is way below a certain threshold. Bringing that voltage back to 1.5V is easy, but that doesn't increase the stored energy, because it isn't changing the chemicals of the battery in any way.

Again, increasing a battery's voltage doesn't increase the energy it holds: that cannot be changed on non-rechargeable batteries, and buyers of batterpoop should be aware of that. Voltage and energy are different things.

Do you think the creators of the Batteroo sleeve are aware of what you just posted and are in this simply to make a buck?  If that's the case, well, I guess I've been duped. 

[g.lewarne]

Complementing onlooker's good post above:

Not only the batterizer did perform WORSE than a regular battery, it did fail to meet the first of its claims: to extract every last drop of juice from a battery (aka "chemical energy"), and Dave proved this failure on the live feed last night.

People - and here I include the so-called Batteroo engineers (engineers my ass!) - are unable to tell the difference between voltage and stored energy. Onlooker's example, a cell battery X an AA battery is a great example, does describe that very well, and one has obviously a lot more energy than the other, even although the voltage is the same.

A drop in stored energy doesn't necessarily mean a drop in voltage, and alkaline batteries are such an example: they present a flat 1.5V line until their stored chemical energy is way below a certain threshold. Bringing that voltage back to 1.5V is easy, but that doesn't increase the stored energy, because it isn't changing the chemicals of the battery in any way.

Again, increasing a battery's voltage doesn't increase the energy it holds: that cannot be changed on non-rechargeable batteries, and buyers of batterpoop should be aware of that. Voltage and energy are different things.

Do you think the creators of the Batteroo sleeve are aware of what you just posted and are in this simply to make a buck?  If that's the case, well, I guess I've been duped. 

Fully aware of the difference.  Their complete and utter lack of demonstrable benefit, non-shipment of media units, lack of technical papers and ever-changing misleading marketing of the product, censorship of social media and indiegogo posts is unforgiveable

[@rt]

I got a screenshot, so no take backsies

[ez24]

Do you think the creators of the Batteroo sleeve are aware of what you just posted and are in this simply to make a buck?  If that's the case, well, I guess I've been duped. 

If you feel that way sell them here.  I am sure you can.  As far as I know you are the first in the US to get them.  Heck if it were me I would put them up for $100.

[steverino]

They claim to have "good results" of testing from various common products including a toy train. I have asked them to release the results publicly, let's see if they do that.
I'd love to see the results of the toy train, because the results from both mine and Frank's testing on different toy trains has been nothing short of a horrible result.

Wayne didn't know the exact model of the train when I asked him on Facebook, but they might have used a train with AA batteries, and the track was different. Apparently they measured and recorded lap count and lap times with an expensive looking photoelectric barrier, but I think the fact that they didn't release the full data or a diagram of it so far means that it wouldn't look too good for them. And they used two different trains in their test side by side. I don't want to accuse them that they added a resistor or something in the train without the sleeve, but the trains could be just different. Not a good test setup.

Maybe next they'll say, our tests were done with old pre-production "Batteriser" sleeves instead of the good new "Batteroo" ones.

Pretty sure their train is a Fisher-Price Trackmaster Thomas trainset (same track).  It runs on two AAA batteries according to amazon listing:
https://www.amazon.com/Fisher-Price-Thomas-TrackMaster-Station-Starter/dp/B0160SNY7Q/ref=sr_1_6?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1483039457&sr=1-6&keywords=thomas+the+train+set

[samgab]

I almost hate to suggest this - but the (ugh) Batterizer might actually have helped extract more battery life with my (now departed) Fluke 28II.
Reason being that the 28II low-battery function cuts off at about 1.4 volts per cell and makes you replace the batteries prematurely, while they still should have lots of life left. Keeping the nominal voltage at 1.5 or so would probably help keep it going much longer, as the actual drain in use is only a couple milli-amps unless the back-light is on.

Thoughts?

Unlikely, because in an extremely low draw device, a higher cutout voltage is not too bad, because the cells recover and the current draw doesn't make the voltage sag too much.So the battery remains at basically open circuit voltage, which in Alkaline chemistry is still up at around 1.3-1.4V even when the battery is very depleted. But 1.4 volts is very high for a low battery alert even so.
In MJLorton's test of the Fluke 28II, he found that the battery low signal came on at 0.92V per cell, which is very good. And it's rated for 800hrs typical, which is pretty respectable. https://youtu.be/Asy8xovDbww?t=37m3s

[dr_frost_dk]

Posted Dave's timelapse video on their facebook Page, was up for some hours before they deleted my comment 

[Macbeth]

I'm sorry, but it is clear that the Batteroo is actually working. There is a famous race car test, the "Le Mans 24 hour endurance" which sorts the men from the boys so to speak, at least for car engineers and very tired drivers.

I scaled it down to 24 minutes and the endurance test shows that Batteroo choo choo's absolutely annihilate the virgin batteries by 9 laps.

OK, forcing a pair of toddlers to sit down and watch a Thomas the Tank Engine for 24 minutes is probably child abuse, but needs be.

After all, Wayne/Bob thinks there is some serious value in this. 

[Fungus]

Do you think the creators of the Batteroo sleeve are aware of what you just posted and are in this simply to make a buck?

Yes.

They know it doesn't work since the very beginning.

[woox2k]

I'll just jump in and say something i wanted to say a long time and since Dave didn't create forum threads for the Batteriser tests, i'll post my opinion on those here as well.

First of all, i think that Batteriser does not deserve all the hate it gets from here. Marketing team made up a lot of BS and now everyone is only focusing on that. Like Dave has always said, Batteriser is a boost converter and seeing the tests it works very well. There still are some applications where one would need a boost converter like that. Good example is that train test Dave did, if one wanted the train to go fast without worrying about the laps it could do then Batteriser is a good solution. Devices that depend heavily on battery voltage can run better/faster with this product (you just lose battery capacity)

This is also a reason why i got a bit annoyed when Dave uploaded those train tests. That train has no electronics that depend on constant voltage and it just drains the battery until the motor cannot rotate the wheels anymore, it eventually drains the voltage to 0 since nothing really cuts off when the train stops. Only thing you proved with that test is the fact that DC-DC converters have losses and running a small DC motor at higher voltage will make it run faster. Since this device was supposed to be used in devices that cut off batteries at high voltage, it could not possibly last any longer in this test and everyone knows that. What about doing some "real" tests with those things? Hooking it up to a power supply and figuring out it's cutoff voltage, power limits or losses.

[sleemanj]

forum threads for the Batteriser tests

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/

Since this device was supposed to be used in devices that cut off batteries at high voltage

Name one single readily obtainable common usage mass market product for which you believe that the Batteroo/iser would be advantageous.

Batteroo/iser specified toys as a use case, therefore this type of test is exactly correct.  The train is about as simple a device as you can get, it's a motor, and a grain-of-wheat light bulb, not even an LED.

Electrical charcterisation is coming, but Joe Public doesn't care nor is interested in that, they simply want (need) to know "does Batteroo/iser benefit me".

The answer is... no - unless you first discharge the cell without, then add the Batteroo/iser to eek out a couple of percent extra. 

If, as we all know and should know, you put a fresh battery in a Batteroo/iser, you are throwing away power.

In the case of toys, which again, was a use case specified by the company, kids don't care that their train runs a few percent faster, if it stops 50% earlier.

[Blocco]

I'll just jump in and say something i wanted to say a long time and since Dave didn't create forum threads for the Batteriser tests, i'll post my opinion on those here as well.

First of all, i think that Batteriser does not deserve all the hate it gets from here. Marketing team made up a lot of BS and now everyone is only focusing on that. Like Dave has always said, Batteriser is a boost converter and seeing the tests it works very well. There still are some applications where one would need a boost converter like that. Good example is that train test Dave did, if one wanted the train to go fast without worrying about the laps it could do then Batteriser is a good solution. Devices that depend heavily on battery voltage can run better/faster with this product (you just lose battery capacity)

This is also a reason why i got a bit annoyed when Dave uploaded those train tests. That train has no electronics that depend on constant voltage and it just drains the battery until the motor cannot rotate the wheels anymore, it eventually drains the voltage to 0 since nothing really cuts off when the train stops. Only thing you proved with that test is the fact that DC-DC converters have losses and running a small DC motor at higher voltage will make it run faster. Since this device was supposed to be used in devices that cut off batteries at high voltage, it could not possibly last any longer in this test and everyone knows that. What about doing some "real" tests with those things? Hooking it up to a power supply and figuring out it's cutoff voltage, power limits or losses.

The performance claims for Batteriser didn't come from the marketing team, they first appear in the patent.

Can you elaborate on the devices that you think it is suitable for because everyone else is struggling to identify an application?  If you eliminate all electronic devices that already have built-in boost converters and devices in which the batteries last for years e.g. remote controls, quartz clocks etc. and all passive load devices e.g. the train set, what are you left with? Does Batteroo provide any guidance on this?

Batteroo make it very clear that their device's primary purpose is to extract more energy from a battery, not to consume the energy faster.

If you have been following this thread you will be aware that "real" tests will be performed on the Batteroos but they will take a little longer; the train test was a quick way to demonstrate the Batteroo's performance in the type of product in which it is likely to be used. But, don't you think it is for Batteroo to provide technical data for their own product and, therefore, shouldn't your criticism be directed at them?

[AmmoJammo]

This is the only device I can think of that would benefit from the batteroo...

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Sidewinder-Air-Pump-D-Cell-Pool-Camping-Mattress-Inflator-/191799283534

Having your toy train run slower is not an argument for boosting the voltage!

However, these air pumps do struggle to inflate a mattress to a reasonable level as the cells get depleted.

So while it won't run as long with the batteroo, it is a device where its performance is effected by voltage, and doesn't have a built in boost converter.

[Mr.B]

This is the only device I can think of that would benefit from the batteroo...

It may well apply in that case…
Except, most of those are sold as sex doll inflators and therefore don’t need to run as long as having to inflate a mattress.

Please note: The above statement is totally un-researched and unsubstantiated rubbish pulled out of my arse while typing… much like the statements made by the Roo Bros at the start of their campaign.

 

[samgab]

This is the only device I can think of that would benefit from the batteroo...

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Sidewinder-Air-Pump-D-Cell-Pool-Camping-Mattress-Inflator-/191799283534

Having your toy train run slower is not an argument for boosting the voltage!

However, these air pumps do struggle to inflate a mattress to a reasonable level as the cells get depleted.

So while it won't run as long with the batteroo, it is a device where its performance is effected by voltage, and doesn't have a built in boost converter.

...Except: That pump runs at 6.67 Amps! (Spec table says it wants to run at 40W, and 6V, 4 x 1.5V D cells in series.) So when you add increased current from the boost conversion in there, you'd be up over 10A draw from the cells as the voltage sags... I can't see even the "D" cell version of Batteroo's coping with that. But then, I've never seen any tests done on the C or D versions of the Batteroo in the wild...

[woox2k]

If you have been following this thread you will be aware that "real" tests will be performed on the Batteroos but they will take a little longer; the train test was a quick way to demonstrate the Batteroo's performance in the type of product in which it is likely to be used. But, don't you think it is for Batteroo to provide technical data for their own product and, therefore, shouldn't your criticism be directed at them?

Yeah, okay i got bit carried away. Of cource it's Batteroos job to put up details on their own product but after looking at the claims and other BS they came up with i don't think they will do that. I was just expecting conclusive tests by Dave, but if they are coming then i have no problems, or i can just read the testing thread i didn't notice before.

Now only problem i still have with those train videos: As far as i know Batteriser was not advertised as a device that you put on a battery when it's new and expect 8 times the capacity. It was meant to be put on when your device failed to start up because battery voltage was too low just to get some more usage out of them. The claimed extra usage you could get out of them this way was total BS but that's how it was meant to work.

My main point was to say that this is a functioning device afterall (leaing out oll of the claims and intended purpose) and can be used on some cases. One example is that mattress inflator someone posted that relies heavily on battery voltage. Another usage are some cheaper LED (head)lamps that have no regulation and would stay bright a lot longer with Batteriser.

[Blocco]

This is the only device I can think of that would benefit from the batteroo...

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Sidewinder-Air-Pump-D-Cell-Pool-Camping-Mattress-Inflator-/191799283534

Having your toy train run slower is not an argument for boosting the voltage!

However, these air pumps do struggle to inflate a mattress to a reasonable level as the cells get depleted.

So while it won't run as long with the batteroo, it is a device where its performance is effected by voltage, and doesn't have a built in boost converter.

That's great, assuming that Batteroo can deliver the necessary 6A+ current (highly unlikely) and that you would even notice perhaps a 10% increase in inflation performance. Furthermore, (if it did work) Based on what we've seen so far, it may only run for half as long which isn't much good when you're camping and miles from the nearest shop.

[samgab]

... As far as i know Batteriser was not advertised as a device that you put on a battery when it's new and expect 8 times the capacity. It was meant to be put on when your device failed to start up because battery voltage was too low just to get some more usage out of them. The claimed extra usage you could get out of them this way was total BS but that's how it was meant to work.

From their own FAQ:
"Does the battery need to be “dead” before you use the Batteriser?

No, you can start using the Batteriser at any time, even a brand new battery, and you will get the benefits of extended battery life."
- https://www.batteroo.com/contact/#faq

[AmmoJammo]

That's great, assuming that Batteroo can deliver the necessary 6A+ current (highly unlikely) and that you would even notice perhaps a 10% increase in inflation performance. Furthermore, (if it did work) Based on what we've seen so far, it may only run for half as long which isn't much good when you're camping and miles from the nearest shop.

Its not so much about how much air the pump can flow, but rather the pressure it can inflate a mattress to...

Don't worry, batteroo have always said their sleeves can give all the current you need!

[woox2k]

From their own FAQ:
"Does the battery need to be “dead” before you use the Batteriser?

No, you can start using the Batteriser at any time, even a brand new battery, and you will get the benefits of extended battery life."
- https://www.batteroo.com/contact/#faq

Oh well... Another thing they have stated correctly at one point but totally wrong in their own documentation or webpages...
I should give up, even they don't seem to understand for what or how this product should be used. 

[Blocco]

If you have been following this thread you will be aware that "real" tests will be performed on the Batteroos but they will take a little longer; the train test was a quick way to demonstrate the Batteroo's performance in the type of product in which it is likely to be used. But, don't you think it is for Batteroo to provide technical data for their own product and, therefore, shouldn't your criticism be directed at them?

Yeah, okay i got bit carried away. Of cource it's Batteroos job to put up details on their own product but after looking at the claims and other BS they came up with i don't think they will do that. I was just expecting conclusive tests by Dave, but if they are coming then i have no problems, or i can just read the testing thread i didn't notice before.

Now only problem i still have with those train videos: As far as i know Batteriser was not advertised as a device that you put on a battery when it's new and expect 8 times the capacity. It was meant to be put on when your device failed to start up because battery voltage was too low just to get some more usage out of them. The claimed extra usage you could get out of them this way was total BS but that's how it was meant to work.

Their claims have shifted as the product has gradually been debunked, but, like I said, read the patent for the original claims

section 0035 is the source of the 8x claim and relies on some outrageous premises.

https://www.google.com/patents/US20120121943

[EEVblog]

Now only problem i still have with those train videos: As far as i know Batteriser was not advertised as a device that you put on a battery when it's new and expect 8 times the capacity. It was meant to be put on when your device failed to start up because battery voltage was too low just to get some more usage out of them. The claimed extra usage you could get out of them this way was total BS but that's how it was meant to work.

Nope. They specifically state (and always have):