Author Topic: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)  (Read 3078695 times)

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Offline Delta

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7825 on: January 01, 2017, 07:46:36 pm »
(Checks all radio packs before going on stage.  All show full charge...)

"How y'all doing out there? Are you ready to R_______________<silence>"
 

Offline drussell

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7826 on: January 01, 2017, 08:08:33 pm »
Yep, that will be pretty funny.   :-DD

Wireless microphones intentionally have their gauges show the battery being low and throw a warning long before it is actually dead...  Most will keep running for quite a long time after that because you often can't just change them in the middle of being used!  Defeating this intentional "early warning" system is just plain :palm:

When the light on the bottom of my old Sennheiser SKM 3 microphone goes out (which the manual just says you should change the battery "as soon as possible") will still run for at least a couple more hours before it would actually die.  My Audio Technica ATW-T34 has a gauge on the LCD on the side of the microphone AND one on the LCD on the receiver. 

You WANT these features active.  :)
 

Offline samgab

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7827 on: January 01, 2017, 08:15:09 pm »
Yep, that will be pretty funny.   :-DD

Wireless microphones intentionally have their gauges show the battery being low and throw a warning long before it is actually dead...  Most will keep running for quite a long time after that because you often can't just change them in the middle of being used!  Defeating this intentional "early warning" system is just plain :palm:

When the light on the bottom of my old Sennheiser SKM 3 microphone goes out (which the manual just says you should change the battery "as soon as possible") will still run for at least a couple more hours before it would actually die.  My Audio Technica ATW-T34 has a gauge on the LCD on the side of the microphone AND one on the LCD on the receiver. 

You WANT these features active.  :)

The ironic thing is the guy already had the perfect working solution: Eneloop Pros. Yes, the battery gauge drops to 3/4 almost immediately, but it remains between half and 3/4 for ages, and it still functions as a battery gauge, apart from the caveat of never showing batt full, except for a few minutes when the batteries are first inserted. I use wireless mic's and use eneloops, and have the same thing. They work perfectly fine on eneloops. Why fix what ain't broke?
 

Offline AmmoJammo

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7828 on: January 01, 2017, 08:36:07 pm »
New challenge - find a single product where Batterizer offers any advantage.
done.

And no worries, he's a professional

Might be worth including this post as well......



I don't think he should be so quick to publicly offer his support...
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7829 on: January 01, 2017, 11:05:54 pm »
That isn't damage though just claimed life reduction from deep discharging which pretty much all applications for your NiMH cells already do. The capacity difference between cut off at the generally recommended 0.9v and the 0.6v they claimed the batteriseroo would go down to is trivial.

Do you know of any equipment which stops at say 70% discharge because it increases life?
"Tests have shown that a small amount of
overcharging or over-discharging will not cause premature
failure of the batteries but will significantly shorten its life.
For example, some tests showed that over-charging Ni-MH
batteries by 0.2 V will result in a 40% loss of cycle life and a
0.3 V over-discharge of lithium-ion batteries can result in
66% loss of capacity"

This is right next to figure 4 that I've linked. And yes, I know equipment like that, any Toyota hybrid car. Also, a bunch of equipment will have a undervoltage cut-off, so it does not kill secondary batteries. According to waterloo, this is some kind of a design flaw...
 

Offline Hensingler

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7830 on: January 01, 2017, 11:54:55 pm »
"Tests have shown that a small amount of
overcharging or over-discharging will not cause premature
failure of the batteries but will significantly shorten its life.
For example, some tests showed that over-charging Ni-MH
batteries by 0.2 V will result in a 40% loss of cycle life and a
0.3 V over-discharge of lithium-ion batteries can result in
66% loss of capacity"

This is right next to figure 4 that I've linked. And yes, I know equipment like that, any Toyota hybrid car. Also, a bunch of equipment will have a undervoltage cut-off, so it does not kill secondary batteries. According to waterloo, this is some kind of a design flaw...

What is 'over discharging'? reducing cell voltage to zero is just discharging and I can't find evidence it causes damage. Reverse charging causes damage and any equipment using a battery (cells in series) requires voltage cut off to avoid reverse charging the lower capacity cells in the battery.

Cars which pamper and under use their batteries in order to meet a mandated 10 year battery life are not the general case. The document you linked is 10 years old, specifically about electric vehicle batteries and the text contradicts the graph so I don't have that much faith in it.
 

Offline JonF

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7831 on: January 02, 2017, 02:03:43 am »
On HiMH over discharging, pages 9-10 of the following document from Energizer  might be of interest (or not):
http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/nickelmetalhydride_appman.pdf
« Last Edit: January 02, 2017, 02:05:26 am by JonF »
 

Online Halcyon

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7832 on: January 02, 2017, 06:54:12 am »
Yep, that will be pretty funny.   :-DD

Wireless microphones intentionally have their gauges show the battery being low and throw a warning long before it is actually dead...  Most will keep running for quite a long time after that because you often can't just change them in the middle of being used!  Defeating this intentional "early warning" system is just plain :palm:

When the light on the bottom of my old Sennheiser SKM 3 microphone goes out (which the manual just says you should change the battery "as soon as possible") will still run for at least a couple more hours before it would actually die.  My Audio Technica ATW-T34 has a gauge on the LCD on the side of the microphone AND one on the LCD on the receiver. 

You WANT these features active.  :)

Absolutely. As someone who are actually done proper live production work in the past, we can't afford to be changing batteries in belt packs half-way through a sequence or when speakers/performers are busy doing their own thing. I rely on the battery low indicator as being a good 2 hour "heads up" that I'll need to do something soon and can send someone off to do it when the time allows it.

If I'm recording for extended periods, I always replace the batteries as a matter of course. 

The "pro" who put Batterisers in his gear is a moron. He'll be sorely disappointed when one day his audio channels start dropping like flies and he's asked to explain why the hell there was no audio for one half of a take (or they had to rely on back up audio channels because their primaries failed).
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7833 on: January 02, 2017, 07:02:48 am »
If his Eneloop batteries are good enough to run the wireless microphone for at least double the running time of a show then to him they will work.  If he uses one though for an encore performance, which might be for an extra hour, then he will find the dead battery syndrome pretty fast.

As nobody has tested so far with a rechargeable cell, and over various load ranges, there is no data as to how long the boost converter will run with these rechargeable cells. My off the cuff thought is that you will see a roughly 30% loss in runtime for a single cell application, and with a multicell application you will see the same, plus one killed cell after 20 cycles, and perhaps a killed Batteriser as well if the dying cell reverse charges to 0.7V and latches up the controller.
 

Offline f4eru

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7834 on: January 02, 2017, 08:41:55 am »
The Energizer document is very clear : you should stop discharging at 75% of the midpoint voltage to expect normal life.
- higher cutoff : higher life but less useable capacity
- lower cutoff : unreasonnably low life for a marginal capacity increase.

In figure 11, the discharge happening under the cutoff point is clearly marked "overdischarge"

Offline tszaboo

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7835 on: January 02, 2017, 09:18:07 am »
"Tests have shown that a small amount of
overcharging or over-discharging will not cause premature
failure of the batteries but will significantly shorten its life.
For example, some tests showed that over-charging Ni-MH
batteries by 0.2 V will result in a 40% loss of cycle life and a
0.3 V over-discharge of lithium-ion batteries can result in
66% loss of capacity"

This is right next to figure 4 that I've linked. And yes, I know equipment like that, any Toyota hybrid car. Also, a bunch of equipment will have a undervoltage cut-off, so it does not kill secondary batteries. According to waterloo, this is some kind of a design flaw...

What is 'over discharging'? reducing cell voltage to zero is just discharging and I can't find evidence it causes damage. Reverse charging causes damage and any equipment using a battery (cells in series) requires voltage cut off to avoid reverse charging the lower capacity cells in the battery.

Cars which pamper and under use their batteries in order to meet a mandated 10 year battery life are not the general case. The document you linked is 10 years old, specifically about electric vehicle batteries and the text contradicts the graph so I don't have that much faith in it.
Over discharge is also described there on the graph.
You know what? I dont care about you anymore. For all I know, you are a payed batteriser poster.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7836 on: January 02, 2017, 09:39:30 am »
What is 'over discharging'? reducing cell voltage to zero is just discharging and I can't find evidence it causes damage.

Seriously? I don't think you looked very hard: https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=over+discharging

(resists using lmgtfy with great difficulty)

 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7837 on: January 02, 2017, 09:43:47 am »
What is 'over discharging'? reducing cell voltage to zero is just discharging and I can't find evidence it causes damage.
Over discharge is also described there on the graph.
You know what? I dont care about you anymore. For all I know, you are a payed batteriser poster.

There's a few weirdly-supportive-of-Batteriser posters around here in the last few weeks.  :-//

Fortunately the Pesky Facts don't care what Batteriser supporters might want to believe. Discharging batteries to 0V is bad, mmmmmkay? Alkalines start to leak, rechargeables lose capacity.
 

Offline kalleboo

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7838 on: January 02, 2017, 10:23:14 am »
Using batteriser on NiMH is probably the best way to kill them fast. Secondary batteries dont like to be over discharged.
Luckily Batteroo have their customers covered here by not actually discharging batteries appreciably more than without a sleeve and leaving plenty of charge in the battery.
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7839 on: January 02, 2017, 10:52:55 am »
Using batteriser on NiMH is probably the best way to kill them fast. Secondary batteries dont like to be over discharged.
Luckily Batteroo have their customers covered here by not actually discharging batteries appreciably more than without a sleeve and leaving plenty of charge in the battery.
Actually, imagine a gadget, using 4x AA battery, with 4x 0.9V cut-off voltage, which is 3.6V. Now, all battery has the batteriser on it, one is already discharged, because if has, say 1% less capacity. So you have 1 battery giving 0V, the other 3 1.5V for a total 4.5V. The gadget works, and the weak battery will be over discharged, maybe even reverse polarized, further ruining it. And then, charged again, that cell will be even weaker, dieing, and reverse polarizing even faster.
 

Offline Hensingler

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7840 on: January 02, 2017, 03:10:08 pm »
The Energizer document is very clear : you should stop discharging at 75% of the midpoint voltage to expect normal life.
- higher cutoff : higher life but less useable capacity
- lower cutoff : unreasonnably low life for a marginal capacity increase.

The document doesn't say that you made up most of it. The 75% refers to per battery (which of course should read per cell) and is specifically to prevent reverse charge of cells in a battery.

In figure 11, the discharge happening under the cutoff point is clearly marked "overdischarge"

Also states "A key to avoiding harm to the battery is to terminate prior to reaching the second plateau" and as best I can read the crude graph the first never mind second plateau doesn't start till the battery terminal voltage is reversed.

You know what? I dont care about you anymore. For all I know, you are a payed batteriser poster.

Yeah sure the guy (me) who's first post here said

"This train is a good example of where batteroos are a complete fail. The only way to win is to put sleeves on already dead batteries and in this case you get another 3.1%. Given a batteroo costs about 6 times more than quality Amazon branded batteries you would have to clip onto nearly 200 dead batteries to break even which no one sane would bother to do and the batteroos would likely fall to bits long before that anyway."

is payed by batteriser, how much do you think I got payed for that post? 
 

Offline onlooker

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7841 on: January 02, 2017, 03:26:52 pm »
Yes, figure 11 and the explanation about it is confusing.

The phase described as "over discharge" includes the part we normally called "reversal charging" that requires an external power source, while I have always regarded "over discharging" means  the part of discharging that take the battery to 0V (without reversal).

A question here is: will (over) discharging a NiMH battery to 0V damage the battery?

My understanding used to be that it will not have a negative impact and only reversal charging will do the damage.

Now, by the description of figure 11, actually, only the 2nd stage/plateau of the reversal charging causes the real damage. In other words, a NiMH may tolerate a moderate level (1st stage) of reversal charging without being damaged or having capacity reduced.

This "moderate level" reversal charge tolerance is upto about 40% of the battery capacity. This is good to know. It means several batteries in series with upto 40% capacity difference can run down to 0V w/o bad effects to the batteries.

Then, the next question is: does this tolerance apply to all NiMH batteries in general or is it highly depending on the construction? I have many eneloops; does eneloop have a similar tolerance?

Fixed typo.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2017, 06:16:27 pm by onlooker »
 

Offline JonF

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7842 on: January 02, 2017, 04:10:34 pm »
It is confusing, hence the "(or not)"  when I posted  :)

Given that Baterro recommend that their sleeves should not be used on rechargeable batteries I don't think a fan boy would argue the point.

Given that below 75% of the midpoint voltage at the discharge rate in use the battery has virtually nothing (according to the Energizer document) left I can't see the point in designing somthing to work below that point myself, but I could easily be wrong.

Whether a single cell would be damaged if discharged below the recommended level is an interesting question all the same, my interpretation of the information from Energizer is that it would. However, there are far more knowlegable people than me here. It would be useful to see some analysis off the topic without it degenerating into an argument...



 

Offline Hensingler

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7843 on: January 02, 2017, 04:24:38 pm »
Now a question is: will (over) discharging a NiMH battery to 0V damage the battery?

My understanding is that it will not have a negative impact and only reversal charging will do the damage.

As is mine which means that batteriseroos cutting off at 0.6v is not a problem providing they also block reverse charging.

If that isn't the reason for them not recommending use with rechargeables then what is? Lower internal resistance makes batteriseroos an even bigger personal injury risk and fire hazard?

Whether a single cell would be damaged if discharged below the recommended level is an interesting question all the same, my interpretation of the information from Energizer is that it would. However, there are far more knowlegable people than me here. It would be useful to see some analysis off the topic without it degenerating into an argument...

I can't see it. Would an NiMH cell self-discharging on the shelf start damaging itself?
« Last Edit: January 02, 2017, 04:31:06 pm by Hensingler »
 

Offline edavid

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7844 on: January 02, 2017, 05:12:51 pm »
I can't see it. Would an NiMH cell self-discharging on the shelf start damaging itself?

They seem to be saying that unloaded storage is OK, but loaded storage causes capacity loss.  (Hard to tell from that incredibly vague document.)

But then you wonder why there should be a difference, if the endpoint voltage is the same.  Does an unloaded cell never actually reach 0V?  Or is there still some small capacity loss, that's allowed for in the overall life spec?  There are really no answers given.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2017, 05:16:25 pm by edavid »
 

Offline drussell

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7845 on: January 02, 2017, 05:39:15 pm »
Yes, figure 11 and the explanation about it is confusing.

Why is it confusing?

The way they specify their cell capacities is for X mAh at a certain discharge rate to 0.9 volts.  This is what they call "100%"capacity. They show you in Figure 10 that the faster you discharge, the less total capacity you get.  At slower discharge rates (they say up to about 1C) , the 0.9 volts cutoff is great and means the cell is essentially "fully discharged".  At higher discharge rates, like 4C, for example, terminating your discharge at 0.9 volts may be premature, though, and instead of having used up almost all of the available capacity since they drop like a rock once they really hit that end of charge "knee", there may still be significant usable capacity left due to the depressed voltage caused by the aggressive discharge rate.

In these cases, they are essentially saying to do a load test (or use published high-discharge curves) at your high discharge rate to come up with a graph like Figure 6.  Once you have your data, you calculate where that Midpoint of Discharge is, and see what the voltage is at this point which will be lower than the 1.2 volts shown in figure 6.  You multiply that voltage by 0.75 and get some number lower than 0.9 volts and you use that value as your cutoff voltage.

As to discharging to 0 volts vs. 0.9 volts in a typical application to try to get more than 100% of their rated capacity, that extra "10% or less" of the total chemical charge that is greater than their rated capacity (because they rate them for a 0.9v cutoff, as the knee is just starting rather than 0 volts) by extracting that last little tiny area under the curve...  Well, you CAN do that in a single cell application if you want, but it is pretty pointless because your available voltage is dropping like a rock...  You will never be able to go beyond the start of that "One Electrode Reversed" plateau because you only have one cell, so you shouldn't actually cause any damage to the cell as long as it is recharged fairly soon afterwards.  You're not supposed to store NiMH in a totally discharged state for extended periods, unlike best practice for NiCd. 

As soon as you put cells in series to form a battery, however, then you really want to stop discharging as soon as your output starts to drop because you need to avoid reverse-charging as this will permanently damage the cell.  The battery will hold for some time on that first plateau without actually going negative by eating up some of the extra reserve positive electrode...  Thus as long as the cells in your whole battery pack are capacity matched well enough to always stay in that first plateau when discharging, you are OK...  Which is why they recommend always using the 0.9v cutoff...  You are unlikely to actually reverse anything until one or more of your cells has significantly less capacity that the best ones. 

Obviously, the more cells you put in series, the more you need to watch this effect.  This is why things like power tools they tell you to recharge as soon as the tool begins to slow...  If you waited until you get more than a perceptible voltage drop, your weakest cells in a well-used pack may be pushed into reverse by the time you actually hit 0.9v per cell.  In a 15-cell pack (eg. an 18v cordless power tool w/ NiMH), for example, when you hit the 13.5 volt "75%" mark, you might have only discharged all the cells to 0.9v if the cells are new and all fairly equal.  In an older pack with worn cells, you are more likely to have many cells that are still at 1.1-1.2 volts while you're using your remaining capacity to smooshy-mooshy-mash angry pixies back into the weakest couple cells in reverse...  That will rapidly destroy those cells, where you may well otherwise have been able to get dozens or hundreds more usable cycles out of the pack.

Quote
The phase described as "over discharge" includes the part we normally called "reversal charging" that requires an external power source, while I have always regarded "over discharging" means  the part of discharging that take the battery to 0V (without reversal).

You do realize that your "External Power Source" can be the other cells in a series-connected array of cells, right?

Quote
A question here is: will (over) discharging a NiMH battery to 0V damage the battery?

ONE cell?  No. 
A battery, with multiple cells in series?  It certainly can, unless you do sophisticated individual cell monitoring and control like you would with a good Li-ion pack.
 
Quote
My understanding used to be that it will not have a negative impact and only reversal charging will do the damage.

Now, by the description of figure 11, actually, only the 2nd stage/plateau of the reversal charging causes the real damage. In other words, a NiMH may tolerate a moderate level (1st stage) of reversal charging without being damaged or having conpacity reduced.

Yes, they can tolerate that time with the cell holding at 0v (the first plateau) alright, though it is hard on the positive electrode, it won't actually start liberating hydrogen and venting until you hit the end of that first plateau.  You're NOT actually reverse charging it yet until the cell goes below 0v.

Quote
This "moderate level" reversal charge tolerance is upto about 40% of the battery conpacity. This is good to know. It means several batteries in series with upto 40% conpacity difference can run down to 0V w/o bad effects to the batteries.

Right, which is why they don't normally put fancy monitoring on each cell in a typical series NiMH pack but rather just stick them in series and hope for the best.  :)  They are reasonably tolerant for that first bit.

Remember, though, that the more cells you put in series, the more potential there is for damage.  This is why it is pretty much totally retarded to try to discharge a multi-cell battery beyond 0.9v per cell.  Very little capacity left and larger and larger chance of damaging cells prematurely the lower you go and the more cells in series.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2017, 06:37:44 pm by drussell »
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7846 on: January 02, 2017, 06:16:39 pm »
Another happy customer, and he hasn't even tried them yet.

Thierry Baudhuin 1 hour ago

Just got mine today also. Unfortunately I had to pay also a VAT and formality cost of 28€ for a 40$ pack (In Belgium). On top of it, I have ordered 2 packs at the same time, but they were sent separately, so I will have to pay again 28€ in a few days most probably.
I also received an mail informing that I will get a 9v batterizer because of the delay of the production, but I didn’t received anything.
If I only knew, I would not buy it. I am a bit disappointed after waiting 2 years I must admit.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteroo-extend-battery-life-significantly#/comments
« Last Edit: January 02, 2017, 06:18:15 pm by StillTrying »
.  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline rich

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7847 on: January 02, 2017, 06:38:28 pm »
Finally definitive proof, direct from Batteroo.

Vivitar digital cameras 3 x AAA batteries.
Set up to take photos in forced flash mode. One pic every 10 seconds.
The claim is 172 pics without sleeve, 616 with.



edit to add: The flash does seem to stop working at 172 pics, but the camera looks like it is still taking pictures up to about 420.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2017, 06:40:58 pm by rich »
 

Offline drussell

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7848 on: January 02, 2017, 06:49:42 pm »
Finally definitive proof, direct from Batteroo.

Vivitar digital cameras 3 x AAA batteries.
Set up to take photos in forced flash mode. One pic every 10 seconds.
The claim is 172 pics without sleeve, 616 with.

Anyone have any idea what model of camera this is?

I expect this is the same kind of issues as the goofy GPS test but this time about the flash instead of the backlight.

This should be interesting!  :popcorn:
 

Offline amirm

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7849 on: January 02, 2017, 06:58:28 pm »
Anyone have any idea what model of camera this is?
From the picture of the back it looks like Vivitar F126: http://shashinki.com/shop/vivitar-f126-digital-camera-blue-mp-29482.html

 


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