EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[StillTrying]

About a month ago my LCD clock's display became noticeably faint, and a day later it was completely blank!

This clock is still going strong with full LCD contrast after another month on that one temporary charge!

Clock is still going strong with plenty of contrast after 4 5 months on that one re-charge!

Edit: If anyone can't work out the context, then just click on the live links above the quotes to see the previous posts. 

[Cerebus]

About a month ago my LCD clock's display became noticeably faint, and a day later it was completely blank!

This clock is still going strong with full LCD contrast after another month on that one temporary charge!

Clock is still going strong with plenty of contrast after 4 months on that one re-charge!

In an 8000+ message topic it might be helpful to give a bit more context if you want people to know what you're talking about.

[f4eru]

my clock is also going strong
it oscillates at 23,768 kHz with a strong 170mV amplitude.

[Mr.B]

23,768 kHz

It won't be keeping time very well... 

[dr_frost_dk]

Some time since i checked in, and also since i checked the indiegogo page, a extra few unhappy customers to the list, and still a lot complaining about not getting their batteriser's

[Brumby]

.... and none of this is any surprise.

I do like the guy who says "even know the things suck, i still have a right to get my suck cause I paid."

[StuUK]

Is Batteriser in it's quiet death throes?

[AndyC_772]

Yes, but it's just taking 800% longer to die.

[Cerebus]

Yes, but it's just taking 800% longer to die.

[:chuckle:]

[BarsMonster]

According to the other thread, it was delivered on 6th of April, about a month has passed so maybe... just maybe we might get something? any shaker here with link to Zeptobars?

Sorry guys for taking this too long. Going through all the backlog...
https://zeptobars.com/en/read/BTR004K-Batteriser-Batteroo-switched-capacitor-boost-dcdc

[bktemp]

https://zeptobars.com/en/read/BTR004K-Batteriser-Batteroo-switched-capacitor-boost-dcdc

Are you sure it is a capacitor boost circuit? Based on the circuit it looks more like a typical boost converter.
And even the Batteroo pages shows inductors:
https://www.batteroo.com/technology-page/

Could you (or somebody else with knowledge in chip design) please explain a bit what we are seeing on this picture?
The picture looks great, but I have no idea what the individual areas are. Are the right area individual mosfets? Why does it have so many pads, the IC has only 8 pins. Were some of the mosfets connected in parallel?
Based on the circuit I would expect a synchronous boost converter, so 2x 2 mosfets connected in series.

[BarsMonster]

Are you sure it is a capacitor boost circuit? Based on the circuit it looks more like a typical boost converter.
[...]
The picture looks great, but I have no idea what the individual areas are. Are the right area individual mosfets? Why does it have so many pads, the IC has only 8 pins. Were some of the mosfets connected in parallel?

You are correct, I was too quick with my conclusions.

There are 4 mosfets, but they are most likely not parallel - rather they share IC pins (like connecting SW1/SW2 to ground/output - so they are SW1->ground, SW1->VO1, SW2->ground, SW2->VO2). All connections to package are long gone, so we can only guess how 4 mosfets were used here. Looks like 2-phase boost converter?

[lpickup]

Could you (or somebody else with knowledge in chip design) please explain a bit what we are seeing on this picture?
The picture looks great, but I have no idea what the individual areas are. Are the right area individual mosfets? Why does it have so many pads, the IC has only 8 pins. Were some of the mosfets connected in parallel?

The area to the right (at least the giant blobs of light pink material) are basically just the top level of metal.  You can't really see what's underneath, although if you look in the darker pink areas between them (particularly in the right center) you can see that there are structures below.

The large light pink "box" 25% from the left and slightly above center is interesting in that it's not used as a pad contact.  Maybe this is a large MIM (metal-insulator-metal) cap, although it would be surprising that the chip process would allow this on a metal layer at the top of the metal stack (the insulator for MIMCAPs have to be incredibly thin so it would be subject to mechanical stress).

A lot of the structures you see are really just wires.  The two light pink concentric structures in the center, just to the left of the pad contacts might be spiral inductors.

The reddish structure just above the lone pad sitting at 25% from the left and below center looks like it might be an interdigitated capacitor.

To really see more of the active devices they'd have to peel away a few of the top metal layers and provide a bit more magnification.

[dr_frost_dk]

More angry comments and a new video, a video where it seems they finally got a product that may actually just give something considering the lower voltage of rechargeable battery's, but have anybody tried a wireless mouse or keyboard at different voltages to see if going over 1.2V will give you extra range on your mouse and keyboard?

[Hensingler]

a video where it seems they finally got a product that may actually just give something considering the lower voltage

For crappy products that would benefit from but don't have a switching converter - same as the original.

Bob says "but we need your support to bring Batteroo  Reboost technology to the market" and "With your help we can revolutionise how rechargable can power up the world".

Sounds like another indiegogo scam is planned.

[EEVblog]

More angry comments and a new video, a video where it seems they finally got a product that may actually just give something considering the lower voltage of rechargeable battery's, but have anybody tried a wireless mouse or keyboard at different voltages to see if going over 1.2V will give you extra range on your mouse and keyboard?

They're BACK!
Another crowd funding campaign headed our way 
Seems like they have learned their lesson about outrageous headline claims. But of course the classic misleading flashlight example is in there again.
I don't mind the D cell solution though, but as always, they think this will change the world, when it's really a reasonably niche market.

[EEVblog]

Coming to Kickstarter in 9 days:
https://www.batterooreboost.com/

This thread is about to get infinitely longer!

Will be interesting to see if they are more or less successful this time.
Kickstarter is arguably a bigger market, the rechargable D cell thing is technically a more useful solution than the original Batteriser, but they don't have the same banner 800% bullshit claims.

Of course they won't have solved the existing problems. The first being the horribly unreliable and delicate sleeve and spring contact which would effectively negate the reusable aspect of the rechargeables.
And the overheating issues could get a LOT worse with rechargeables that have a much lower ESR and gave deliver more energy into a short. I hope they have good liability insurance.

So it will be more useful and practical than the original Batteriser primary cell design, but it's still not a universal solution. Because any properly designed product will have good support for rechargeables already.

Seems like they have failed miserably with their existing primary cell Batteroo sleeve, i.e. they haven't gotten it into the big market stores as they wanted to. And they have to run another crowd funding campaign to try and boost (pun intended) more investor interest.

[Brumby]

This thread is about to get infinitely longer!

I would hope it would not be that much of an explosion.

We don't need to debate whether they have a chip...
We don't need to debate whether they could produce a product...
We might have a few thoughts about different cell configurations, but we don't need to debate the mechanical issues with the original single cell design...

We can wonder about the delivery timeline and whether their communications will be any better.
We can discuss whether their "fresh" angle will find them better markets.

Will be interesting to see if they are more or less successful this time.

It will.

Kickstarter is arguably a bigger market, the rechargable D cell thing is technically a more useful solution than the original Batteriser, but they don't have the same banner 800% bullshit claims.

Some positive elements to this latest initiative, however there is still a history, and that will hamper their efforts, I'm sure.

Of course they won't have solved the existing problems. The first being the horribly unreliable and delicate sleeve and spring contact which would effectively negate the reusable aspect of the rechargeables.
And the overheating issues could get a LOT worse with rechargeables that have a much lower ESR and gave deliver more energy into a short. I hope they have good liability insurance.

We can only hope for some pleasant surprises here.


The good news ... and the bad news ....

So it will be more useful and practical than the original Batteriser primary cell design, but it's still not a universal solution. Because any properly designed product will have good support for rechargeables already.

Seems like they have failed miserably with their existing primary cell Batteroo sleeve, i.e. they haven't gotten it into the big market stores as they wanted to. And they have to run another crowd funding campaign to try and boost (pun intended) more investor interest.

You have to admire their tenacity.  You also have to wonder about their wisdom.



Time for some fresh popcorn.

[amspire]

Will be interesting to see if they are more or less successful this time.
Kickstarter is arguably a bigger market, the rechargable D cell thing is technically a more useful solution than the original Batteriser, but they don't have the same banner 800% bullshit claims.

They are still trying as hard as possible to mislead, even if they are technically accurate. This graph is probably accurate for one particular torch, but the graph is truncated just where the non-boosted torch brightness flattens off and then lasts for two or three times the life of the Batteriser boosted battery.

[frozenfrogz]

It is like dealing with zombies: You can batter them but they still keep on coming at you like a roo bar. Hence the name?

[EEVblog]

More angry comments and a new video, a video where it seems they finally got a product that may actually just give something considering the lower voltage of rechargeable battery's, but have anybody tried a wireless mouse or keyboard at different voltages to see if going over 1.2V will give you extra range on your mouse and keyboard?

Again, well designed products like mice and keyboards that use Alkalines last for a year or more, there is no real need to use rechargeables, and the battery life will likely be shorter.

[EEVblog]

Will be interesting to see if they are more or less successful this time.
Kickstarter is arguably a bigger market, the rechargable D cell thing is technically a more useful solution than the original Batteriser, but they don't have the same banner 800% bullshit claims.

They are still trying as hard as possible to mislead, even if they are technically accurate. This graph is probably accurate for one particular torch, but the graph is truncated just where the non-boosted torch brightness flattens off and then lasts for two or three times the life of the Batteriser boosted battery.

Yup, will be interesting to see if we can find out the actual torch used and then duplicate the test.
Many of their other tests have been misleading or even completely fraudulent (Golf GPS), so this one is no different.

[EEVblog]

Kickstarter is arguably a bigger market, the rechargable D cell thing is technically a more useful solution than the original Batteriser, but they don't have the same banner 800% bullshit claims.

Some positive elements to this latest initiative, however there is still a history, and that will hamper their efforts, I'm sure.

There is an infinite supply of Kickstarter backers with money to spend. I expect their previous effort to have almost no impact on this Kickstarters, unless a ton of back flood the comments reminding people of the previous campaign.

[dr_frost_dk]

Will be interesting to see if they are more or less successful this time.
Kickstarter is arguably a bigger market, the rechargable D cell thing is technically a more useful solution than the original Batteriser, but they don't have the same banner 800% bullshit claims.

They are still trying as hard as possible to mislead, even if they are technically accurate. This graph is probably accurate for one particular torch, but the graph is truncated just where the non-boosted torch brightness flattens off and then lasts for two or three times the life of the Batteriser boosted battery.

Also the graph starts at 7000 lux......
But i would like to know about just keyboard and mouse specific at 1.1-1.6, my mouse seems not to last that long on rechargeable battery's, but i have a lot so no problem with a quick change, but the range vs voltage would be nice to test, if no difference is measured from 1.1-1.6V then that destroys one of their arguments even before the launch of kickstarter.
Also aren't we all going over to 18650, i mean i have been using them for 10+ years.
Or internal LiPo/Li-ion batteries, of course there are still many products that use AA and AAA and we already know that the batteriser does almost nothing and running from start makes it "worse"

[BradC]

I have a couple of shit products that don't cope well with rechargeable at all. Devices where I don't care about warning or linear voltage drop. I'd pay good money for a sleeve that takes an eneloop and gives a reliable 1.5V without significantly adding to the quiescent draw and fits in the battery bay.

That's a limited use case though.