Author Topic: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)  (Read 2234780 times)

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Offline BradC

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7225 on: December 15, 2016, 11:51:39 pm »
Oh, and I haven't seen anything that runs on C cells for years!

Kids toys. Lots of kids toys take C & D cells. I have a drawer full of adapters to use AA NiMh in C & D cell applications.

My kitchen bin takes D. My Refrigerant leak detector takes C. My babies automated infant rocker takes C. My doorbell takes C.
 

Offline amspire

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7226 on: December 16, 2016, 01:10:50 am »
To add to Batteroo's woes and list of issues, the AAA version at least seems to be rather delicate ...

Perhaps this is why Rob said they should be handled carefully?
It's all futile anyway because the Sony wireless mic will have a built in DC-DC converter :palm:.

I was about the say that. And that's the point(lessness) of the Batteriser, if that Sony wireless isn't already designed to get 80-90% of the energy from that battery then I'm a monkey's uncle.
Once the true controlled runtime comparison reviews come in the numbers will be inescapable.

Also, with two Batterisers, you have the possible problem I have mentioned before. If the switching frequencies of the two Batterisers are slightly different, there could be an audio frequency noise component as a result. Nothing a sensitive microphone needs more then a varying pitch audio frequency noise generator inside the microphone.
 

Offline SNGLinks

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7227 on: December 16, 2016, 01:28:58 am »
You don't want the batteries in a radio mic to fail. I always use new ones when doing anything live.
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7228 on: December 16, 2016, 04:15:45 am »
https://www.google.com/patents/US20120121943

Their own discharge curves Fig7. shows it will reduce the life time of the cells in many devices. ::)
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7229 on: December 16, 2016, 05:07:20 am »
https://www.google.com/patents/US20120121943

Their own discharge curves Fig7. shows it will reduce the life time of the cells in many devices. ::)

This has been discussed before. If you read the text for Fig7, it says "The amount of time it takes for the batteries to reach 1.39V, which is where a lot of electronic equipment stop operating, are listed.". And of course, as Dave demonstrated, he couldn't find any device which doesn't work at 1.39V, and as every mathematician knows, with a wrong premise you can conclude everything.
So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7230 on: December 16, 2016, 07:33:50 am »
https://www.google.com/patents/US20120121943
Their own discharge curves Fig7. shows it will reduce the life time of the cells in many devices. ::)

And there is that ridiculous 1.35V cutoff voltage again  :palm:



Their cluelessness about batteries is right there in their patent, it's embarrassing.
 

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7231 on: December 16, 2016, 07:41:41 am »
This has been discussed before. If you read the text for Fig7, it says "The amount of time it takes for the batteries to reach 1.39V, which is where a lot of electronic equipment stop operating, are listed.". And of course, as Dave demonstrated, he couldn't find any device which doesn't work at 1.39V, and as every mathematician knows, with a wrong premise you can conclude everything.

Then they had to justify this by explaining in their snail video that it's the current pulses and ESR dummies!
They had to find the one edge case where this a big deal, a high drain digital camera running from AA's, and bingo, they have proof that this is how products work.
Still they didn't pop the Batterisers in to see if it fixed the problem.
And still doesn't validate their measuring the battery voltage open circuit one little bit, it's the biggest most embarrassing goof in the industry and is why they are a laughing stock.
 

Offline Don Hills

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7232 on: December 16, 2016, 08:28:01 am »
...  then I'm a monkey's uncle.  ...

I see what you did there...
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7233 on: December 16, 2016, 08:42:23 am »
They seem to be getting about 1500mAH out of 2500mAH cells. ???
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7234 on: December 16, 2016, 09:28:04 am »
They seem to be getting about 1500mAH out of 2500mAH cells. ???
Where do you see this? Regulated output is 1.5 V at 50 mA for 30 hours: 1.5 V * 0.05 A * 30 h = 2250 mAh, so the boost converter is about 90% efficient.
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7235 on: December 16, 2016, 09:38:10 am »
mAHours doesn't include volts, that would make it milliwatt hours. Which are still useful as a battery capacity measure.
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7236 on: December 16, 2016, 10:27:46 am »
mAHours doesn't include volts, that would make it milliwatt hours. Which are still useful as a battery capacity measure.
Right, I mixed this up, maybe because I don't like mAh, not very exact. But then the efficiency of the boost converter is lower. Without, it is is about 2500 mAh (50 mA for 50 hours), but with the boost converter only 30 hours. At 1.5 V and 50 mA output, the input current of the boost converter would be higher, but not that much, if efficiency is high.

So yes, it would be 0.05 A x 30 h = 1500 mAh. But this doesn't say much about the energy and you can't compare it, because it is at constant 1.5 V. But of course, if you have a device with constant current, which normally still works down to 1 V without the Batteriser, it would run only half the time with the Batteriser. And for devices with an integrated boost converter, the combined losses of both boost converters will result in a reduced time as well.
So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
 

Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7237 on: December 16, 2016, 02:02:23 pm »
I just found another recently uploaded video and don't recall seeing some of this particular footage before in other previously released videos. If segments of this video have been posted before I apologise and simply didn't see it, The Batteriser stuff starts at 5:00 and times to note are as follows:

5:00 Product introduction and general waffle.
5:46 The sleeves on the work bench are just that, sleeves with no incorporated electronics.
6:29 The Mac keyboard, same as above and no visual sign of componentry when placed on the battery.
6:48 Face palm moment, the sleeve appears to be connected in reverse polarity, how does that work?.

Random Youtube Video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyZw1PSyQkE&feature=youtu.be&t=300

People who are in to watch gadgets should probably go to the start of the video, the concept appears pretty flash but broad day light could be a problem and strangely I don't see any finger shadowing effect or obscuration, now that's very interesting.
 
« Last Edit: December 16, 2016, 06:06:04 pm by Muttley Snickers »
 

Offline AmmoJammo

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7238 on: December 16, 2016, 04:18:12 pm »
Then they had to justify this by explaining in their snail video that it's the current pulses and ESR dummies!
They had to find the one edge case where this a big deal, a high drain digital camera running from AA's, and bingo, they have proof that this is how products work.
Still they didn't pop the Batterisers in to see if it fixed the problem.

Their original batteriser could only supply 500ma, this isn't even enough to charge the flash capacitor in a digital camera, so it would have simply shut down, even with brand new batteries.

As for their "new" design, with their custom IC.... no one has measured how much current it can actually do, have they?
 

Offline Luminax

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7239 on: December 16, 2016, 05:40:20 pm »
No one has "Measured" anything, not even He who cannot passWhom Shall Not Be Named...

I wonder what's the update on that one guy who offered to buy the thing on IGG?

could be "sympathizer"  :-DD
Jack of all trade - Master of some... I hope...
 

Online Blocco

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7240 on: December 16, 2016, 09:37:10 pm »
The musings of a fool..... Just about every assertion in the Batteroo patent is wrong....

[0035]
If one looks at the potential return of such a device in terms of lifetime of a battery, one can see significant benefits. For instance, the AA battery in the above example would use roughly the equivalent charge of the battery output in the range of 1.5V to 1.4V. This means that after 0.1V drop, the battery's life is over. If the battery could be used until its voltage reaches 0.8V, then after 0.7V drop the battery's life is over. If one were to assume that the time versus the voltage drop is a linear function, then the life of the battery could be improved by a factor of 7 in this example. However, advantageously the time versus voltage drop is not quite linear. The time it takes for the battery voltage to drop by 0.1V is longer at lower voltages versus at higher voltages. That means that if a constant current was drawn from the battery, it would take the battery a lot longer to discharge from 1.2V to 1.1V than it would from 1.5V to 1.4V. This means that the extent to which the battery life is increased could be even higher than the factor of 7 in the above example above.
[0036]
It is noted that the regulation circuit has a certain efficiency which cuts back on the extent to which the battery life is extended though the life time reduction is rather minimal. During operation, the regulator itself uses a certain amount of current from the battery. A lot of the available DC to DC converters have high efficiencies of around 95%. That is, of power supplied by the battery, 5% is used by the converter and the rest is available for the end user. However, the 5% efficiency loss due to use of a converter, when compared to the 700% gain in efficiency of the battery, is negligible. It is further noted, that the converter efficiency may drop as the battery voltage drops due to use. For example, as the battery voltage drops from 1.5V to 1V, the efficiency of the converter may drop down to 50% to 60%. However, 50% efficiency is still a significant improvement over the current approach of discarding the batteries because their voltage has dropped below the operable voltage range (i.e., 1.4-1.5V).


It's funny how they dismiss testing a device's cut-off voltage using a power-supply because it does not include a battery's internal resistance and yet they completely ignore this resistance in their own performance claims for the Batterooo.  |O
« Last Edit: December 16, 2016, 09:46:50 pm by Blocco »
 

Offline Spuddevans

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7241 on: December 16, 2016, 10:01:59 pm »
I don't know if this has been covered before in this thread, but my question is, what is the power consumption of this batterooo when idle, ie when the battery powered device is not drawing current? Does it in some way detect when the battery powered device is "off" and go into some "sleep mode"?

If it does not have such a feature, then surely it's quite likely that, especially with low-current draw devices, that rather than providing added "life" to the device, it will actually reduce it's "life"?

Can't wait for the "Tear-down" video on these!!

Tim
 

Offline CJay

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7242 on: December 16, 2016, 10:31:16 pm »
I don't know if this has been covered before in this thread, but my question is, what is the power consumption of this batterooo when idle, ie when the battery powered device is not drawing current? Does it in some way detect when the battery powered device is "off" and go into some "sleep mode"?

If it does not have such a feature, then surely it's quite likely that, especially with low-current draw devices, that rather than providing added "life" to the device, it will actually reduce it's "life"?

Can't wait for the "Tear-down" video on these!!

Tim

Dunno, seems that whenever they've been shown unloaded 'in operation' there's a multimeter indicating 1.5V so either the load of the meter (roughly 150 nano amps?) is sufficient to trip the boost converter into action or it's running continually, it's already been stated that it's possible to build boost converters with off load current draw in the microamps which wouldn't have any significant effect on battery life.
M0UAW
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7243 on: December 16, 2016, 10:56:34 pm »
I don't know if this has been covered before in this thread

Yes, it has, but we have more evidence now. One of the people who received one posted a picture using a multimeter to show Batteriser voltage.

Most multimeters have an impedance of about 10MOhms so that's less than a microamp of load. Batteriser is still boosting.

It also works in remote controls it works in Apple keyboards. Both of those will use microamps.

If it does not have such a feature, then surely it's quite likely that, especially with low-current draw devices, that rather than providing added "life" to the device, it will actually reduce it's "life"?

Yep.

That's one of the problems with trying to make a booster that works everywhere.
 

Offline amspire

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7244 on: December 17, 2016, 12:20:53 am »
They will have picked a converter that is running all the time, but when there is no load, the converter only has to switch just enough to cover the leakage. Below a certain current, the converters can switch to a variable frequency mode, so at no load, the switching frequency may something like once a minute. The converter chip itself will have a quiescent operating current as well. The total no-load current could be anything from 1uA to 1mA. 

We will not know till someone tests the no-load current for the range of possible battery voltages since it could change with the input voltage. Could also change with temperature.

It is one of the important specifications for a number of applications. If the Batteriser is used in an emergency torch, you do not want to find the batteries have been flattened when you have the emergency. Batteries in TV remotes often last well over a year. No-load current from the Batteriser could be enough to shorten the battery life significantly if it is used in a remote.

If the no-load current was as low as 5uA, then for most applications the no-load current would have little effect on battery life. At around 1mA no-load current, batteries would be dead in a few months.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 12:39:16 am by amspire »
 

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7245 on: December 17, 2016, 12:45:50 am »
The musings of a fool..... Just about every assertion in the Batteroo patent is wrong....
[0035]
If one looks at the potential return of such a device in terms of lifetime of a battery, one can see significant benefits. For instance, the AA battery in the above example would use roughly the equivalent charge of the battery output in the range of 1.5V to 1.4V. This means that after 0.1V drop, the battery's life is over. If the battery could be used until its voltage reaches 0.8V, then after 0.7V drop the battery's life is over.

To have that in your patent application is embarrassing enough if you are just some hack "inventor" with little knowledge of batteries or electronic product design. But to be two major players in the electronics industry, CEO of tech companies in the power/charger industry no less, PhD's, university professor, hundreds of patents to your name, etc etc as they boast, it's beyond embarrassing  :palm:

The problem with the patent for them is that it's there forever now, they can't take it back, they can't change it like they do their website, and it shows exactly what they based their entire product and business model on.
Everything after the patent is them trying to scramble to save face with their idea and claims.
 

Offline razvanme

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7246 on: December 17, 2016, 12:48:55 am »
Hello everyone,

I just got my Christmas present, and I thought I have to share it with you.

I finally received my order 8 - AAA sleeve's, the plan is this
- One I will keep for my amusement
- 3 are destined to reach Dave
And I have 4 more that I can send to anyone interested. I will send two sets of two. If you are interested send me a message.

Funny thing is they even sent one that has a defect.

   
Regards.

Offline daveake

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7247 on: December 17, 2016, 12:57:46 am »
Top first post :-)

Can't wait for Dave's report.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7248 on: December 17, 2016, 12:58:51 am »
Hello everyone,
I just got my Christmas present, and I thought I have to share it with you.
I finally received my order 8 - AAA sleeve's, the plan is this
- One I will keep for my amusement
- 3 are destined to reach Dave

Thanks!
I can organise pre-paid DHL express courier if you like?
Email me: dave@eevblog.com

Shame you only got the AAA version though, that limits product testing a fair bit, but should have the same converter and performance curve as the AA?
 

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7249 on: December 17, 2016, 01:00:43 am »
Our first look at the infamous chip!
 


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