Author Topic: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)  (Read 2258698 times)

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7625 on: December 29, 2016, 01:09:01 am »
I don't know of any 1.5V smoke alarms though, but Batteriser are planing (and have promised to give out for free to backers) a 9V version  :scared:

I found a AA smoke alarm on Amazon, popular brand:
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FBQC1K/metafilter-20/ref=nosim/

 :scared:
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7626 on: December 29, 2016, 01:18:48 am »
I don't know of any 1.5V smoke alarms though, but Batteriser are planing (and have promised to give out for free to backers) a 9V version  :scared:

I found a AA smoke alarm on Amazon, popular brand:
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FBQC1K/metafilter-20/ref=nosim/

"Low-battery warning and convenient pullout battery drawer". Sounds perfect.  :popcorn:

 

Offline AlxDroidDev

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7627 on: December 29, 2016, 01:24:58 am »
The problem with smoke alarms is that it may take  them months (if not years) to deplet a battery's charge to the point they won't work again. Unless you start with an already used battery, whose initial state is unkown, I don't consider them a good test.

They are, however, useful in proving that using bateroos in them might render them useless, thus endangering those who rely on such alarms.

Again, and sorry for insisting on this, a constant current and/or constant power circuit, like the one I provided a few pages back, might provide a better test, since it can drain a battery in a very short time, and you can still program at with rate the battery is depleted, thus emulating several real world scenarios with a single testing device.
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Offline madires

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7628 on: December 29, 2016, 01:44:15 am »
The smoke alarms powered by a standard 9V battery usually run about 2-3 years. And we have plenty of them since they are mandatory in my state (Hessen).
 

Offline _Andrew_

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7629 on: December 29, 2016, 01:44:56 am »
I don't know if this has come up before in this thread (search did not show anything and going back some 300 odd pages of posts does not appeal). So sorry just incase I am repeating something that has been already covered.

The dimensions of batteries are covered by international standards and from which I assume product manufacturers use the dimensional information from these standards to design the battery compartments with in products. For example IEE60086-2

http://bbs.sciencenet.cn/bbs/upload/15791IEC60086-2_%7B10[1][1].1%7D(2001-10).pdf

I think I remember Dave saying something during his live cast that the batteriser may have problems with devices that have in built reverse polarity protection in the battery compartments, where by the nipple on the battery has to enter a receptacle specifically designed for it.

I can certainly see people having problems with devices that they attempt to return under warranty after hacking up the battery compartment to try and wedge a batteriser in.

I the past when I have attempted to make current measurements on battery powered devices by trying to wedge a thin bit of double side copper clad pcb to break out a connection. The battery compartments have been very well designed to hold the batteries firmly in place leving only the minimum space required for inserting and removing them. So wedging anything elce in there is either a fight or almost impossible.

As for makers of batteriser going to product manufacturers to ask them to make the battery compartments more of a sloppy fit. I can see this going somewhere down the lines of "our battery compartments will accept any appropriate battery that complies to the dimensional caricaturists of relevant international standards" or something along those lines.

 
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Offline CJay

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7630 on: December 29, 2016, 01:56:00 am »
The problem with smoke alarms is that it may take  them months (if not years) to deplet a battery's charge to the point they won't work again. Unless you start with an already used battery, whose initial state is unkown, I don't consider them a good test.

They are, however, useful in proving that using bateroos in them might render them useless, thus endangering those who rely on such alarms.

Again, and sorry for insisting on this, a constant current and/or constant power circuit, like the one I provided a few pages back, might provide a better test, since it can drain a battery in a very short time, and you can still program at with rate the battery is depleted, thus emulating several real world scenarios with a single testing device.

True but they take an awful lot of current (relatively) when they're sounding so that'd be a possible test?
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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7631 on: December 29, 2016, 02:03:32 am »
The problem with smoke alarms is that it may take  them months (if not years) to deplet a battery's charge to the point they won't work again.

Yep, but it should be easy to demonstrate if Batteroo prevents their 'low battery' alert from working (or not).

It's also easy to figure out if Batteroo will reduce the overall battery life (or not). We can measure the detector's current requirements at different voltages (ie. see if it uses more at 1.5V than 1.2V), we can also measure Batteroo's inefficiencies at the load created by the detector, do the math.

Unless you start with an already used battery, whose initial state is unkown, I don't consider them a good test.

The important test would be to see if the detector dies suddenly or not, ie. how long will the battery warning light up compared to a non-batterood battery?

If a non-batterood battery goes for weeks after the low-battery warning lights up and a batterood battery only goes for a few hours, then ... it's dangerous.
 
Dave has devices which can discharge a battery until it reaches a known voltage. If we know the detectors alert voltage then Dave can discharge a battery to that voltage, let it recover, repeat a few times at ever-lower currents. It's a bit of a pain to do but it will give a battery which is about to go into a death spiral.

Maybe it'll turn out that those detectors light up when the battery is only 60%-70% used (as a safety measure). Batteroo will be a total failure if that's the case.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7632 on: December 29, 2016, 02:06:37 am »
True but they take an awful lot of current (relatively) when they're sounding so that'd be a possible test?

That would be another good reason to turn on the 'battery alert' when the battery is only 50% used - to make sure there's at least an hour or so of loud noises.

A Batterood alarm could easily die as soon as the siren starts.

A high cutoff voltage can be a feature instead of a bug.  :popcorn:
« Last Edit: December 29, 2016, 04:11:45 am by Fungus »
 

Offline PeterL

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7633 on: December 29, 2016, 02:32:43 am »
I don't know if this has come up before in this thread (search did not show anything and going back some 300 odd pages of posts does not appeal). So sorry just incase I am repeating something that has been already covered.

The dimensions of batteries are covered by international standards and from which I assume product manufacturers use the dimensional information from these standards to design the battery compartments with in products. For example IEE60086-2

http://bbs.sciencenet.cn/bbs/upload/15791IEC60086-2_%7B10[1][1].1%7D(2001-10).pdf

I think I remember Dave saying something during his live cast that the batteriser may have problems with devices that have in built reverse polarity protection in the battery compartments, where by the nipple on the battery has to enter a receptacle specifically designed for it.

I can certainly see people having problems with devices that they attempt to return under warranty after hacking up the battery compartment to try and wedge a batteriser in.

I the past when I have attempted to make current measurements on battery powered devices by trying to wedge a thin bit of double side copper clad pcb to break out a connection. The battery compartments have been very well designed to hold the batteries firmly in place leving only the minimum space required for inserting and removing them. So wedging anything elce in there is either a fight or almost impossible.

As for makers of batteriser going to product manufacturers to ask them to make the battery compartments more of a sloppy fit. I can see this going somewhere down the lines of "our battery compartments will accept any appropriate battery that complies to the dimensional caricaturists of relevant international standards" or something along those lines.
Bob claimed in his last comment that the batteriser only ads 0.35 mm to the length of a battery. That seems impossible to me, firstly it ads 0.1mm to the bottom (minus) side, the PCB is lying on the plus terminal, and on top of that the construct a new terminal. That new terminal has to be at least 0.8mm for AAA, and 1mm for AA, according to your document. So I'd say the batteriser adds between 1 and 1.5 mm to the length of a battery.

IF Batteroo ever contact manufacturer's they could also react with: "Our product does not benefit from your batteriser, in fact we highly recomment our customers NOT to use such a device".
Or they just react with:  :-DD
 

Offline AlxDroidDev

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7634 on: December 29, 2016, 03:18:21 am »
A Batterood alarm could easily die as soon as the siren starts.

My thoughts exactly after reading Fungus' reply to my post. In that case, stating that batteroo is good for smoke detectors is criminal, to say the least.

Instead of having manufacturers work with Bob to have their battery compartments fit batteries with batteroo (like Bob childishly think they will do), what we might see are warning notices stating that use of batteroo is not recommended, voids warranty and limits any liability resulting of malfunction.

As far as AA batteries go, nothing replace a few sets of Panasonic Eneloops Black.
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Offline BoomBrush

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7635 on: December 29, 2016, 04:30:47 am »
I don't know of any 1.5V smoke alarms though, but Batteriser are planing (and have promised to give out for free to backers) a 9V version  :scared:
Whoops, I was meant to add an acknowledgement in my post about how most smoke alarms use 9V cells and that my talk about 1.5-1.6v was just to illustrate a "full" battery. Forgot about that.

I sure hope they don't make a 9v battery version, although it was certainly interesting to learn that some smoke alarms will take AAAs and AAs. Didn't know that. That kinda worries me, as pointed out by firewalker that people can be putting Batterisers into alarms on boats.

Perhaps Batteriser should put a "don't use this in any life critical product like a smoke alarm" sticker on the products and website. It's gonna be interesting when there's a fire somewhere and the investigation shows a batteriser was involved, like it over heated or an alarm didnt go off.
 

Offline TechnicalBen

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7636 on: December 29, 2016, 05:02:59 am »
How? I know very few devices it would fit into without heavy modification. 9v often has a snug fit holder for the battery, and clip on terminals. You MAY get away with some give in the terminals, but nothing that would allow a second clip... nothing thin enough could bridge the clips either, without risking breaking them, could it?

[edit]
Hmmm... looking at pictures you may be able to fit a small additional plug between the two.
 

Offline Blocco

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7637 on: December 29, 2016, 06:07:43 am »
I predict that A 9V PP3 Batterooooo will never become a reality and I'm sure they regret ever mentioning it in the first place; I think it was just some glib comment designed to appease impatient backers. All the issues with the single cell Batterooooos will put an end to this new nonsense. :horse:

Even if they manage to convince some gullible retailer that they should stock this crap on a sale or return basis, the 90% return rate will have them pulling them off the shelves faster than Bob Rhubarb can invent new excuses.
 

Offline dcac

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7638 on: December 29, 2016, 06:29:10 am »
It seems ‘interconnected’ smoke-alarms often use AA batteries as the radio connection uses  considerable more current than what a 9V battery can provide for being a practical solution. And even then the annoyance factor with frequent AA battery changes seems pretty high, from what I heard about every 3-6 month instead of 1-2 years that the standard 9V smoke-alarm usually lasts.

So yes people will be tempted to use Batterisers on smoke-alarms and I do not for a nanosecond believe Batteroo will be issuing any kind of warning about doing so.

 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7639 on: December 29, 2016, 08:21:44 am »
So yes people will be tempted to use Batterisers on smoke-alarms and I do not for a nanosecond believe Batteroo will be issuing any kind of warning about doing so.

Luckily Batteroo won't be able to claim they didn't know about the problem when they sure. We know they read this.
 

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7640 on: December 29, 2016, 09:11:19 am »
I was contacted by someone at the California fulfilment center the shipped the Batterisers (they are an EEVblog viewer) and they said:
Quote
We're using FIMS which uses FedExs services but injects them into the local postal service's system and they deliver it for them.

My tracking number doesn't work yet because it's the holiday season.
 
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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7641 on: December 29, 2016, 09:22:23 am »
Given that I only have today and tomorrow left, I think I will complete my single shot train test this morning (should take a few hours, needs personal monitoring) and then I'll have enough material to put together an "initial product test results" video. This won't include the performance testing with the gear. I'll start on that after I edit that video. If I have time that will go up before I go away, otherwise it'll have to wait.
I think it's important to get the product testing up, as that's the only thing that Joe Public understands.
 

Offline ez24

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7642 on: December 29, 2016, 09:37:34 am »
I think it's important to get the product testing up, as that's the only thing that Joe Public understands.

I agree and I also want to see product testing first.  Can't wait for the monkey test.  A suggestion  - post raw video of the Monkey playing the cymbals and let a forum member come up with an electronic counter.  (if you can stand the noise)  Hint pay your kids to listen to it ha ha ha  and let you know when it stops.  Seems the kitchen floor would be a good place.
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Offline Halcyon

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7643 on: December 29, 2016, 09:44:26 am »
It's really happening!  ;D

 

Online djos

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EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7644 on: December 29, 2016, 11:23:20 am »
I don't know about fire detectors but every CO detector on boats I have come across uses 2xAA or 2xAAA batteries. CO detection is critical in small boats with cabins next to engine rooms.

My experience with boats owners makes anxious that it will be plausible scenario. Boat owners tend to like electronic gadgets...

Alexander.

My nest protects use 6x lithium AA batteries - no way in hell I'm putting my family at risk with these snake oil sleeves tho!

It would prolly be interesting to use for testing tho as you can use the app for monitoring the battery and use a servo to keep it awake and chatting via Wi-Fi.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2016, 11:26:51 am by djos »
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Offline kalleboo

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7645 on: December 29, 2016, 12:43:21 pm »
After not working since they sent the shipment notification email on the 22nd, my tracking number from Batteroo just started tracking today (on PostNord.se and Japan Post, but USPS still doesn't know about it). It says it left Sweden yesterday (the 28th)

edit:
I was contacted by someone at the California fulfilment center the shipped the Batterisers (they are an EEVblog viewer) and they said:
Quote
We're using FIMS which uses FedExs services but injects them into the local postal service's system and they deliver it for them.

My tracking number doesn't work yet because it's the holiday season.
It looks like my tracking number does work with FedEx, it's just their link in the email is broken

In the email it looks like this
Code: [Select]
http://mailviewrecipient.fedex.com/recip_package_summary.aspx?PostalID=RE123123123SEAWB=123123123123ShippedDate=12/21/2016
You need to fix it by adding ampersands like this
Code: [Select]
http://mailviewrecipient.fedex.com/recip_package_summary.aspx?PostalID=RE123123123SE&AWB=123123123123&ShippedDate=12/21/2016
« Last Edit: December 29, 2016, 12:58:21 pm by kalleboo »
 

Offline Luminax

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7646 on: December 29, 2016, 02:37:40 pm »
That's a hell of a re-route.... or is it? I have little experience with international shipping but Boob & Co. sure seems to be using the most dubious postal method available  |O

Side note : are you Japanese kalleboo? just curious
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Offline kalleboo

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7647 on: December 29, 2016, 04:47:22 pm »
That's a hell of a re-route.... or is it? I have little experience with international shipping but Boob & Co. sure seems to be using the most dubious postal method available  |O
Dave details when he ended up with the same shipper that send things through Sweden: http://www.eevblog.com/2013/12/31/traps-for-even-simple-successful-crowd-funded-projects/

Side note : are you Japanese kalleboo? just curious
Nope, just married to one :)
 

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7648 on: December 29, 2016, 04:53:38 pm »
UPDATE!
After all this time, Batteroo have finally contacted me directly.
Turns out they were watching the live testing show were I mentioned they have never contacted me, so they did, Ali BTW (not Bob).
They were very cordial and invited me to do formal testing for them.
I turned them down.
But ironically I'm already doing that for them already  ;D

They claim to have "good results" of testing from various common products including a toy train. I have asked them to release the results publicly, let's see if they do that.
I'd love to see the results of the toy train, because the results from both mine and Frank's testing on different toy trains has been nothing short of a horrible result.

So yeah, that just happened  :o
« Last Edit: December 29, 2016, 05:01:22 pm by EEVblog »
 
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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7649 on: December 29, 2016, 04:56:49 pm »
That's a hell of a re-route.... or is it? I have little experience with international shipping but Boob & Co. sure seems to be using the most dubious postal method available  |O
Dave details when he ended up with the same shipper that send things through Sweden: http://www.eevblog.com/2013/12/31/traps-for-even-simple-successful-crowd-funded-projects/

Yep, this shipping company is horrible. But likely out of Batteroo's control, just like it was for me. I didn't even deal with this company directly, my fulfilment house decided to use them and did not tell me. I only found out after the first orders started dribbling in many weeks late, and they were post marked from Sweden. Wouldn't be surprised if the same happened to Batteroo.
 


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