Author Topic: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)  (Read 2218831 times)

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Offline drussell

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7775 on: December 31, 2016, 08:28:00 am »
I think the shorts are due to the metal sleaves touching, despite their space age coating. On the photos the thickness of the coating looks to be about zero.

Indeed...  I suspect that the report with the LED candle was one where the battery compartment has the cells inserted with no dividers in between, so all it takes is two of the sleeves to touch in any way through any small gouge, gash or nick for them two short one or more cells...

Yet another FAIL for Batteroo...
 

Offline drussell

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7776 on: December 31, 2016, 08:35:52 am »
I dont know. Writing SD happens very infrequently. Also, there is no data to support your claim, nor could be, since there was no time to make tests.

Well, knowing how cameras operate and the current demands of the various stages of taking photos, one can make educated guesses!  The SD card writes may be infrequent, however, on most cameras, the card is being accessed in write-mode while the CPU is encoding the photo.  This is by far the highest current consumption phase of any activity on most cameras, therefore, the most likely time for the Batteroo Sleeve to cut out unexpectedly.  Do that very many times and the odds of corrupting the SD card due to an interrupted write are bound catch up to you...

If you're going to try to disprove my theory, I highly suggest you do it with a card that contains only bogus files, not un-backed-up precious family photos.  :)
 

Offline PeterL

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7777 on: December 31, 2016, 09:50:26 am »
I actually might know products where the batteriser might be useful. Canon powershot cameras. When they move the lens, they shut down with low battery, and they dont like rechargeables too much. So I guess high current+ESR triggers the undervoltage circuit, it wouldnt with this.

This needs to be tested, but I think it could be a problem, because Ysjoelfir measured about 500 mV voltage drop when switching on a 0.5 A load and 750 mV for 1 A:

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1101667/#msg1101667
I dont think that is a fair test. Quite obviously the batteriser doesnt have huge output capacitor (which might be a design flaw), and it is possible to create huge current spikes, where the loop is not going to respond fast enough. Most  realistic loads are not going to have those high A/s load swings.

In the long explanation video, the one with the snail, that Batteroo posted long time ago, Franky explained that the batteriser worked so well because it could keep the voltage up during current spikes. It was supposedly the reason the garmin GPS worked so much longer with a batteriser. So I think a case like this deserves to be tested.

And just to give a little head start I have posted some measurements here:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1102567/#msg1102567



 
 

Offline timb

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7778 on: December 31, 2016, 09:58:16 am »
Writing can be a frequent operation, especially when you're taking photos in "burst mode" on a typical DSLR. My old Canon 40D can take about 6 photos per second in high speed mode.

Even just taking a single photo still requires a lot of current. For a DSLR: First the focus servo has to run, then the aperture motor, then the mirror is pulled out of the way, then the photo is taken and the CPU has to process the data simultaneously while it's being written to the SD card. During SD write you might also be charging the flash capacitor as well.

All this amounts to a burst of close to 1A for up to several hundred milliseconds. It can be pretty intense.

Even a traditional point and shoot can be power hungry! I've got a 2008 Canon P&S that pulls roughly 600mA for 400ms while operating the zoom and focus motors! Taking a photo pulls 800mA for 100ms, which goes down to 200mA for another 600ms (plus an additional 300mA for 1000ms if the flash is used).

Cameras have *very* bursty current profiles.
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Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7779 on: December 31, 2016, 10:32:53 am »
Listen up Batteroo, I have it, your new marketing slogan and this time the claim is supported by the facts.....

"Nothing extends battery life better than Batteroo"

 :-DD

Oh, my...  That is priceless...  You win the beer award of the day week year on that one, for sure!   :-DD

Don't give them any bright ideas, though...  LOL

I admit I had to read that line a couple of times, before it struck me - but, yes, that is a true gem.

The only problem is that the common usage of the term infers the direct opposite.


We might have to put an asterisk after the word "Nothing".
 

Offline drussell

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7780 on: December 31, 2016, 05:02:24 pm »
"Nothing extends battery life better than Batteroo"

 :-DD

The only problem is that the common usage of the term infers the direct opposite.

Indeed, which is why it is...

Quote
but, yes, that is a true gem.

... marketing wankery to the absolute finest...  :)

NOTHING beats Batteroo...  Every time!
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7781 on: December 31, 2016, 05:30:11 pm »
In the long explanation video, the one with the snail, that Batteroo posted long time ago, Franky explained that the batteriser worked so well because it could keep the voltage up during current spikes.

But now we've seen the ripple on a Batteriser output and we're not so sure.  :popcorn:
 

Offline sleemanj

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7782 on: December 31, 2016, 05:45:38 pm »
It might be interesting if a sacrificial batteroo made it's way to ElectronUpdate or somebody who can decap and do die photos
https://m.youtube.com/user/electronupdate
maybe might reveal if it is custom silicon or off the shelf.
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Offline drussell

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7783 on: December 31, 2016, 05:51:59 pm »
It might be interesting if a sacrificial batteroo made it's way to ElectronUpdate or somebody who can decap and do die photos
https://m.youtube.com/user/electronupdate
maybe might reveal if it is custom silicon or off the shelf.

I'm pretty sure this is already in the works with some on the way to Zeptobars...  :)
 

Offline jippie

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7784 on: December 31, 2016, 07:00:10 pm »
It might be interesting if a sacrificial batteroo made it's way to ElectronUpdate or somebody who can decap and do die photos
https://m.youtube.com/user/electronupdate
maybe might reveal if it is custom silicon or off the shelf.

I'm pretty sure this is already in the works with some on the way to Zeptobars...  :)

I like the way how ElectronUpdate discusses the structures on the chips, something I personally always missed on the (otherwise amazing) Zeptobars website.
 

Offline Kean

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7785 on: December 31, 2016, 07:10:25 pm »
The best die structure analyses I've seen are by Ken Shirriff at http://www.righto.com/
 
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Offline SL4P

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7786 on: December 31, 2016, 11:03:44 pm »
An interesting collection of things that have been noted elsewhere.

http://www.changedetection.com/log/batteriser/index_log2.html
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Offline Inflex

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7787 on: December 31, 2016, 11:29:23 pm »
Their next step after this will be to create special sub-AA / sub-AAA cells that are 90% the length and 95% diameter of standard sizes, and a "super Batteriser" which has better boost circuitry  utilising the extra room ( higher frequency switching, dynamic modes, bigger output decoupling ).  "Lock and load for non-stop* 100% output, higher performance, superior life**" ( *: except for when you change the cell,  **: superior relative to our first batteriser ).

I'd almost consider it marketable, since we've managed to sell water in bottles and coffee in pods.
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Offline spider

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7788 on: January 01, 2017, 12:47:16 am »
Just came up in my YouTube subscription feed.
More Batteroo testing:

 
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Offline madires

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7789 on: January 01, 2017, 12:55:29 am »
The videos are already discussed in the other thread, wether the radio clock sync problem might be caused by EMI or voltage ripple.
 

Offline f4eru

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7790 on: January 01, 2017, 01:14:35 am »
Don't use Batterizer with Passive load devices. it will drain 2x faster.
Don't use Batterizer when expecting a working Battery gauge. it will render your gauge uselessly stuck at 90%.
Don't use Batterizer when it risks shorting to metal housing and overheating. it will burn you.
Don't use Batterizer in clocks and other low drain devices. it will drain more than the device.
Don't use Batterizer in very high current drain devices. it will add to ESR and not be able to maintain voltage
Don't use Batterizer with active load devices. it will just eat the battery faster.
Don't use Batterizer with devices not designed to fit it. It will stuck and break.
Don't use Batterizer with rechargeable cells.
Don't use Batterizer in life critical applications. It will die without warning.
Don't use Batterizer in products with springs on the "+" terminal. It will be stuck and break.

I think we have a new slogan here :)


Don't use Batterizer.
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7791 on: January 01, 2017, 03:07:42 am »
New challenge - find a single product where Batterizer offers any advantage.
Then calculate payback time.

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Offline firewalker

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7792 on: January 01, 2017, 03:44:20 am »
New challenge - find a single product where Batterizer offers any advantage.
Then calculate payback time.

OK... Let's design a product that benefits from the usage of the batteriser...  :D :D :D

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Offline Kalvin

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7793 on: January 01, 2017, 03:55:18 am »
New challenge - find a single product where Batterizer offers any advantage.
Then calculate payback time.

OK... Let's design a product that benefits from the usage of the batteriser...  :D :D :D

Alexander.

Batteriser will be obsolete in any new product as any new product will implement a working, suitable sized dc-dc-regulator in order to use the battery capacity to the maximum. And the new product will also have a working battery gauge as the product can measure the actual battery terminal voltage during operation. Batteriser is just a gimmick.

But if one really wants to go into bad engineering, just design a product which will have a moderate power consumption and high cut-off voltage level like 1.4V per battery cell. In that case the Batteriser may provide some benefit.

Also, some cheapest adult oriented vibrating toys might benefit from the Butteriser Batteriser, as already reported by some user.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2017, 03:58:32 am by Kalvin »
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7794 on: January 01, 2017, 04:05:45 am »
New challenge - find a single product where Batterizer offers any advantage.
Then calculate payback time.

At this point they might was well remove the components from the sleeves and save money.

(I mean the people who've bought Batterisers - they can remove the components and the batteries will last longer)
 
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Offline edavid

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7795 on: January 01, 2017, 05:13:05 am »
New challenge - find a single product where Batterizer offers any advantage.
Then calculate payback time.

I had a Canon A570 camera that I had to scrap because the low voltage lockout drifted too high.  The replacement A590 I bought cost $20.  So, if I could have saved that camera with a Batterizer like product for less than $20, it would have been cost effective with zero payback time.

Of course the current Batterizer wouldn't work, since it's too large to fit in the camera's very tight battery compartment, doesn't have controlled low voltage passthrough, and probably has insufficient output current.

What I would like is a 2 part product consisting of an AA size Li-ion cell (does anyone make those?), and an AA size 3V regulator module.  Since this is fantasy, I'd like programmable output voltage and undervoltage trigger level from the regulator.

 

Offline AlxDroidDev

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7796 on: January 01, 2017, 06:24:22 am »
New challenge - find a single product where Batterizer offers any advantage.
Then calculate payback time.

OK... Let's design a product that benefits from the usage of the batteriser...  :D :D :D



That means a product that:
  • needs a voltage that is an exact multiple of 1.5
  • is completely incompatible with rechargeable batteries
  • has an XXXL battery compartment, so that it will fit the Batteroo but will make regular "unsleeved" batteries loose
  • has a cooling rib or fan on the battery compartment
  • doesn't have any current spikes
  • doesn't draw too much or too little current
  • doesn't have its own DC-DC converter
  • doesn't have a battery charge indicator
  • is not a life support or mission-critical product
  • doesn't need to run for extendend periods of time
  • appeals to people who are complete laymen in anything remotely related to electricity or electronics

What else am I missing?
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Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7797 on: January 01, 2017, 06:26:24 am »
New challenge - find a single product where Batterizer offers any advantage.
Then calculate payback time.

I can only think of the 2 AAA cell white LED flashlight, which will run with 2 AAA cells for a while, until the battery voltage drops below 1V4 per cell. So, the one lamp you buy in a pack of 5 in Poundland, with included batteries, is about the only item where a Batteriser has any hope. Caveat is you only can use the cheap cells, as otherwise the cheap LED will be overdriven severely, so you only can use it with the Poundland 100 for a pound cells.
 

Offline daveake

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7798 on: January 01, 2017, 06:41:07 am »
Quote from: AlxDroid
What else am I missing?

It has to include a first-aid kit with plasters and burn cream.
 
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Offline jpc

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7799 on: January 01, 2017, 06:52:26 am »

Quote from: AlxDroid
What else am I missing?


It has to include a first-aid kit with plasters and burn cream.


Just to be safe, add an extinguisher as well :-DD
 


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