Author Topic: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)  (Read 2232953 times)

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Offline Luminax

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8050 on: January 06, 2017, 08:48:56 pm »
Who knows... it might make it into technological history as Engineer Vs Marketing saga and our grandchildren would read it one day and you can proudly say "Yeah, I was a part of that"
Jack of all trade - Master of some... I hope...
 

Online Halcyon

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8051 on: January 06, 2017, 09:35:19 pm »
Batteriser/Batteroo/Roohparvar will want to be very careful. The Australian Consumer Law (ACL) is actually very powerful when it comes to standing up to consumer rights and what's "fair".

When it comes to overheating/shorting/damaging effect of inserting a Batteroo sleeve into a product, it'll most certainly be considered a "major problem" under ACL, with the definition being:

A product or good has a major problem when:
it has a problem that would have stopped someone from buying it if they’d known about it
it is unsafe
• it is significantly different from the sample or description
it doesn’t do what the business said it would, or what you asked for and can’t easily be fixed.


And that definition is legislated, not just a "guide".

Under the ACL, Batteroo might also find themselves liable for any compensation resulting from damages or loss, for example, causing damage to equipment or devices where someone has used the Batteroo sleeve.

All that aside, under the law, a product sold in Australia must be of "acceptable quality" including:

• safe, lasting, with no faults
• look acceptable
• do all the things someone would normally expect them to do.


In addition to:

match descriptions made by the salesperson, on packaging and labels, and in promotions or advertising
• match any demonstration model or sample you asked for
be fit for the purpose the business told you it would be fit for and for any purpose that you made known to the business before purchasing
• come with full title and ownership
• not carry any hidden debts or extra charges
• come with undisturbed possession, so no one has a right to take the goods away or prevent you from using them
meet any extra promises made about performance, condition and quality, such as life time guarantees and money back offers
• have spare parts and repair facilities available for a reasonable time after purchase unless you were told otherwise.

Right there Batteroo ticks so many of the boxes which suggest this product is not suitable for sale in Australia and even though they are an international organisation, if they sell a product here, they are bound by our laws.


« Last Edit: January 06, 2017, 09:37:55 pm by Halcyon »
 

Offline spider

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8052 on: January 06, 2017, 10:38:38 pm »
Rofl :palm:
Until a few days ago they like almost every single tweet I mentioned them in.
 

Offline Hensingler

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8053 on: January 06, 2017, 10:39:45 pm »
Batteriser/Batteroo/Roohparvar will want to be very careful. The Australian Consumer Law (ACL) is actually very powerful..

Naw they will have an Australian agent to worry about that :)
 
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Offline samgab

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8054 on: January 06, 2017, 10:45:25 pm »
Rofl :palm:
Until a few days ago they like almost every single tweet I mentioned them in.

Uh Oh, what'd you been tweeting to them?
 

Offline dexters_lab

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8055 on: January 06, 2017, 10:49:46 pm »
with or without a batteriser a alkaline battery will overheat if you short it

this test doesn't prove anything with regard to the batteriser

Time for some *highly* scientific testing...  ;D



It's really hard to test these things until the battery holders I ordered arrive, since the positive terminal of the battery doesn't make contact with the sleeve unless there's compression on the battery, so probing stuff turns into an acrobatic feat.

I also don't have a very good temp probe, but I reached 100 C on the positive terminal of the sleeve after 3 minutes, and after 5 minutes the whole battery was too hot to hold in your hand. Don't think it got hot enough to melt anything.
"A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
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Offline FrankBuss

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8056 on: January 06, 2017, 10:59:18 pm »
Batteriser/Batteroo/Roohparvar will want to be very careful. The Australian Consumer Law (ACL) is actually very powerful when it comes to standing up to consumer rights and what's "fair".

When it comes to overheating/shorting/damaging effect of inserting a Batteroo sleeve into a product, it'll most certainly be considered a "major problem" under ACL, with the definition being:

A product or good has a major problem when:
it has a problem that would have stopped someone from buying it if they’d known about it
it is unsafe
• it is significantly different from the sample or description
it doesn’t do what the business said it would, or what you asked for and can’t easily be fixed.



Who does inform the ACL or do they act on their own? I guess filing a complaint is easy for normal end customers from Australia, and providing some proves like Dave's video and links to this forum with the deleted Indiegogo comments would help.
So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
 

Offline kalleboo

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8057 on: January 06, 2017, 11:00:49 pm »
with or without a batteriser a alkaline battery will overheat if you short it
Did you miss the sarcasm?

I was really just hoping for some magic smoke or something, but no such luck.
 

Offline dexters_lab

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8058 on: January 06, 2017, 11:22:08 pm »
with or without a batteriser a alkaline battery will overheat if you short it
Did you miss the sarcasm?

lol, sorry i missed it by a mile it seems!
"A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
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Offline FrankBuss

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8059 on: January 06, 2017, 11:23:11 pm »
Does anyone see a CE mark, or any other mandatory approval mark, anywhere on the product or its packaging?

If someone from Germany has a package and can take a picture of it, you can file a complaint with an online form here:

https://www.wettbewerbszentrale.de/de/beschwerdestelle/hinweise/

It is illegal to sell electronic products for end customers in Germany without the CE mark.
So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
 

Offline AndyC_772

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8060 on: January 06, 2017, 11:28:21 pm »
Since there's no official EU distributor, I believe it's technically the customer who is the importer, and who therefore carries responsibility for ensuring the product is CE marked. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the answer is more along the lines of "you shouldn't buy this" rather than "they shouldn't sell this to you".
 

Offline dexters_lab

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8061 on: January 06, 2017, 11:45:45 pm »
some PCB closeups for your viewing pleasure

These are the AA size batteriser
"A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
http://www.youtube.com/user/DextersLab2013
http://dexterslab2013.blogspot.co.uk/
 
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Offline bktemp

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8062 on: January 06, 2017, 11:53:40 pm »
some PCB closeups for your viewing pleasure

These are the AA size batteriser
The ic could be the same, but the layout looks different to the AAA Batteriser:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1097209/#msg1097209
It would be interesting to see if the circuit is identical.
The pinout looks similar, but the AA Batteriser has 2 inductors.
Could you measure if both inductors are connected in parallel or if there are two independent boost conveters? You probably have to remove one inductor when doing the measurement, because both inductors are connected to the same input voltage.
 

Offline dexters_lab

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8063 on: January 07, 2017, 12:28:20 am »
some PCB closeups for your viewing pleasure

These are the AA size batteriser
The ic could be the same, but the layout looks different to the AAA Batteriser:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1097209/#msg1097209
It would be interesting to see if the circuit is identical.
The pinout looks similar, but the AA Batteriser has 2 inductors.
Could you measure if both inductors are connected in parallel or if there are two independent boost conveters? You probably have to remove one inductor when doing the measurement, because both inductors are connected to the same input voltage.

the inductors are NOT in parallel looks like each one has it's own connection to the IC
"A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
http://www.youtube.com/user/DextersLab2013
http://dexterslab2013.blogspot.co.uk/
 

Offline jancumps

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8064 on: January 07, 2017, 12:50:39 am »
Maybe a design like this?
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/260514612_fig2_Fig-2-Equivalent-circuit-of-the-tapped-inductor-buck-boost-converter-in-a-quasi-steady

edit: nah. The inductors in that design share the kernel, and they aren't connected to each other on either side.

« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 12:53:26 am by jancumps »
 

Online Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8065 on: January 07, 2017, 12:51:48 am »
Batteriser/Batteroo/Roohparvar will want to be very careful. The Australian Consumer Law (ACL) is actually very powerful when it comes to standing up to consumer rights and what's "fair".

When it comes to overheating/shorting/damaging effect of inserting a Batteroo sleeve into a product, it'll most certainly be considered a "major problem" under ACL, with the definition being:

A product or good has a major problem when:
it has a problem that would have stopped someone from buying it if they’d known about it
it is unsafe
• it is significantly different from the sample or description
it doesn’t do what the business said it would, or what you asked for and can’t easily be fixed.



Who does inform the ACL or do they act on their own? I guess filing a complaint is easy for normal end customers from Australia, and providing some proves like Dave's video and links to this forum with the deleted Indiegogo comments would help.

Just a clarification: ACL is the legislation ("Australian Consumer Law")

I believe the appropriate avenue for reporting is to each state's "Fair Trading" authority - that is, assuming you cannot reach an acceptable resolution with the merchant.
 

Offline Marcel_X

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8066 on: January 07, 2017, 01:06:18 am »
the inductors are NOT in parallel looks like each one has it's own connection to the IC

Are you sure there is no connection underneath the chip?
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Offline chris_leyson

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8067 on: January 07, 2017, 01:17:47 am »
Can't think of a good reason why you would use inductors in parallel, it's got to be an interleaved boost converter, easy to check with a scope.
 
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Offline dexters_lab

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8068 on: January 07, 2017, 01:35:07 am »
the inductors are NOT in parallel looks like each one has it's own connection to the IC

Are you sure there is no connection underneath the chip?

yes, because i measured it
"A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
http://www.youtube.com/user/DextersLab2013
http://dexterslab2013.blogspot.co.uk/
 
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Offline grumpydoc

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8069 on: January 07, 2017, 01:44:07 am »
If you're relying on that translation I don't think you can draw any conclusions on the writer's understanding.

My French is pretty ropey after more than thirty years away from the subject, but even taking that into account I can clearly see that the translation falls far short of satisfactory. 

For instance, constat (which wasn't translated) means observation and the sentence fragment "Partant d’un constat qu’une pile délivre 1.2v en pleine charge," translates as "Starting from the observation that a fully charged battery delivers 1.2V," which is a long way from the translation given.
+1 for the difficulty of learning French, never tried German but my son, who is learning both at school also says it is easier.

I'm nowhere near fluent1 but one problem is that the original French uses the word "charge" in a few places. Unfortunately, while it can mean "charge (as in "état de charge de la batterie2" = "battery charge level") it can also mean "load" so "en pleine charge" could mean "fully charged" or "fully loaded", both are about equally valid.

If we were talking NiCd I'd lean towards the former given the voltage. If we're talking about alkaline then I'd hazard a guess that the intent was 1.2V under load.

[1] I still can't hold much of a conversation and am hopeless on the 'phone but it's getting better.
[2] "batterie" generally means large/lead acid, eg for a vehicle. AA & AAA batteries are "piles"
 

Offline madires

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8070 on: January 07, 2017, 01:46:40 am »
If someone from Germany has a package and can take a picture of it, you can file a complaint with an online form here:

https://www.wettbewerbszentrale.de/de/beschwerdestelle/hinweise/

It is illegal to sell electronic products for end customers in Germany without the CE mark.

It's a tad more complicated. If something is going to be sold inside the EU it needs the CE. As a consumer you could import non-CE stuff as you don't intend to resell it, but customs will withhold those products to protect you. The reality is that customs can't check every package and a lot of non-CE products end up in the hands of consumers. But there might be a liability issue when you pass on a non-CE product to someone else, e.g. as a gift, or turn it on, e.g. EMI. It's a grey area.
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8071 on: January 07, 2017, 02:09:43 am »
It's a tad more complicated. If something is going to be sold inside the EU it needs the CE. As a consumer you could import non-CE stuff as you don't intend to resell it, but customs will withhold those products to protect you. The reality is that customs can't check every package and a lot of non-CE products end up in the hands of consumers. But there might be a liability issue when you pass on a non-CE product to someone else, e.g. as a gift, or turn it on, e.g. EMI. It's a grey area.

Right. I wonder why they didn't print the CE mark on the package, with all these experience in product development (85 years combined). The EU is not a small market.
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Offline AndyC_772

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8072 on: January 07, 2017, 02:28:32 am »
There's no WEEE symbol either. Or FCC, or C-tick. Not even UL  :-DD
 

Online drussell

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8073 on: January 07, 2017, 02:38:11 am »
There's no WEEE symbol either. Or FCC, or C-tick. Not even UL  :-DD

Well considering it has never been certified by anyone for anything, that is no surprise.  :)
 

Offline f4eru

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8074 on: January 07, 2017, 02:46:58 am »
Idea for a new debunking video:
- Get a random device with a battery gauge, and a run time of a few hours
- Do the same test as the train but filming also the battery gauge and show how Batterizoo makes the gauge useless as well as the reduced battery lifetime with the batterizer.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 03:12:15 am by f4eru »
 


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