EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[digsys]

Given their history - I'm still calling foul. I wouldn't put it past them to modify one of the torches. A REAL test is to then SWAP the battery packs and run it again, touching nothing else.
With the wide beam, the intensity pattern is also quite wide, and most likely using a heck of a lot more energy. They should have added power measuring to back up the visuals.

[Brumby]

More proof that Batteroo significantly extends battery life....

Is it me, or does it look like the torch with the batteroo is focused in more of a spot on the lux sensor, versus more of a flood on the other torch.
Visible from about 1:18 to 1:27 where he is fiddling with the torch trying to get the spot centered on the lux sensor.

You are correct, but the question then is - why are the starting lux readings the same?  I was also wondering about ambient light - but that seems to be not a factor, as the meters both started off at 000 at turn-on.

I would like to see that test repeated by keeping the rigging absolutely unchanged and swapping the Batteroo sleeves across the the left hand torch.  However, being so loosely set up, any handling for changing the batteries is going to alter the geometry.

[EEVblog]

In case HKJ isn't online at the moment:
http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Batteroo%20AA%20UK.html

So this means that the problem with the battery gauge on products just going from 100% to off instantly is solved?
If so, why aren't Batteroo promoting this feature of the output voltage dropping?
On the other hand, isn't this a BAD thing from Batteroo's point of view, because they have been screaming that products drop out out low voltages like 1.3V etc, yet here is the Batteriser output 1.3V, and doing so at a low current?

[Brumby]

I would say it comes down to credibility and the best marketing leverage.

They are all about extended life, so that's where they will want to keep the focus - and, as far as I am aware, they have never really taken up interest in battery level metering at all.


Don't expect any comment on that subject - unless they come up with an angle that works for them.  That is, which doesn't impact the "extended life" perception.

[FrankBuss]

More proof that Batteroo significantly extends battery life....

https://youtu.be/x62rhxWfmgk

I don't know, the flashlight with the Batteroo sleeve looks brighter from the beginning. Let's do some forensics I downloaded the video with this online tool:

https://www.onlinevideoconverter.com

Then I opened it in Apple Quicktime, which is a nice program to do a frame-by-frame analysis: with left cursor key you can go one frame back and right cursor key one frame forward. In the left bottom corner you can switch between time and frame display. You can see that he has a hard time to move the beam of the right lamp with the sleeve so that it results in the same intensity as the left lamp. Max intensity without the sleeve is 299 lux:



And on the right side it is goes up to 456 lux, if I didn't miss a frame:



Could be because of the crappy reflector in the lamp that there are brighter spots, but for me it looks like the total light output (lumen) of the right lamp is higher, so the flashlight without the sleeve might use partially discharged batteries (at 1:14 in the video, frame 2226, the person was not in the video, they could have just turned on the lamp without the sleeves for some time). You really should not measure lux at a small point, but the lumen of the lamps, which might be more difficult.

But even if they didn't manipulate it, it doesn't look that much worse in the end without the sleeve, if you ignore the numbers in the lux meters and just look at the image:



They don't tell the model and brand of the flashlights, which would be nice to verify the results.

[Mr.B]

As I said before, given the companies history, I am suspicious of the accuracy/honesty of that video.
There are so many elements that could be manipulated.

[ez24]

As I said before, given the companies history, I am suspicious of the accuracy/honesty of that video.
There are so many elements that could be manipulated.

My feeling is that the only way to debunk them is for someone to repeat their tests and no one has done that yet 

[Brumby]

As I said before, given the companies history, I am suspicious of the accuracy/honesty of that video.
There are so many elements that could be manipulated.

That's why I suggested a re-test with the sleeves swapped across and the geometry unchanged (by even a micrometre).

[samgab]

Why the tinfoil hats, people? The sleeves performed exactly as expected. The outcome is exactly what we'd expect to see, showing a boost in voltage, and a slower decline in voltage, then a sudden dropout at the end, while the bare Alkaline trailed down in a more gentle curve. They don't need to resort to any fakery to get this result. It's pretty much the same curves we already saw in the AA and AAA independant tests.
Incidentally, the D cell batteroos probably have a little more space for a larger inductor etc. I haven't seen anyone say they've received D sized batteroos yet though.

[FrankBuss]

Why the tinfoil hats, people? The sleeves performed exactly as expected. The outcome is exactly what we'd expect to see, showing a boost in voltage, and a slower decline in voltage, then a sudden dropout at the end, while the bare Alkaline trailed down in a more gentle curve. They don't need to resort to any fakery to get this result. It's pretty much the same curves we already saw in the AA and AAA independant tests.

The problem is that they claim a 5.5x improvement in their video, by arbitrary choosing 50% lux and carefully positioning the beams etc., where you can see clearly at the end of the video that the light output of the flashlight without the Batteroo sleeve doesn't look that much worse than the other. So it has not much practical value for the user, and in fact the flashlight without the sleeve might still be used a long time after the one with the sleeve dies, as Dave already mentioned. But the way they filmed, measured and presented it in the video suggests a massive improvement with the sleeve, which is not true.

[PeterL]

More proof that Batteroo significantly extends battery life....

https://youtu.be/x62rhxWfmgk

If you care about battery life in a flash light, wouldn't the first choice be to ditch the incandescent bulb and go for a proper LED flash light?
This is a bit like overclocking a 20 year old PC.

[EEVblog]

Why the tinfoil hats, people? The sleeves performed exactly as expected. The outcome is exactly what we'd expect to see, showing a boost in voltage, and a slower decline in voltage, then a sudden dropout at the end, while the bare Alkaline trailed down in a more gentle curve. They don't need to resort to any fakery to get this result. It's pretty much the same curves we already saw in the AA and AAA independant tests.

We expected a completely flat output voltage response. 1.5V until it suddenly dies. It does not display that.

[Fungus]

Why the tinfoil hats, people? The sleeves performed exactly as expected. The outcome is exactly what we'd expect to see, showing a boost in voltage, and a slower decline in voltage, then a sudden dropout at the end, while the bare Alkaline trailed down in a more gentle curve.

True. The problem is that they drew lines down to the horizontal axis at the point where Batteriser looks best and claimed "5.5x battery life".



Joe public will watch this video all wide-eyed because he wants to believe.

Pointing out:
a) The error in the math
b) The fact that nobody who cares about battery life or brightness would be using an incandescent torch
c) If we put in two modern LED flashlights the Batteriser would lose out BADLY in both brightness and lifetime.
d) etc.
will be a long and painful process. Again.

The only bright side to that video is that the woman's voice is so awful it will make people feel slightly depressed after watching it.

[janekm]

Why the tinfoil hats, people? The sleeves performed exactly as expected. The outcome is exactly what we'd expect to see, showing a boost in voltage, and a slower decline in voltage, then a sudden dropout at the end, while the bare Alkaline trailed down in a more gentle curve.

True. The problem is that they drew lines down to the horizontal axis at the point where Batteriser looked best and claimed "5.5x battery life".

I commend Batteroo on managing to find a product and test procedure that really makes the Batteroo sleeve shine. Not an easy task! 

[Fungus]

I commend Batteroo on managing to find a product and test procedure that really makes the Batteroo sleeve shine. Not an easy task! 

Yep, anybody who thinks they're just deluded about their product or aren't knowingly selling snake oil isn't paying attention. They know exactly what they're doing. They've made a device which alters a battery's output curves and are now busy cherry picking devices where it looks like they improved things.

The truth is that these devices will be 1 in 100, that 99% of devices will perform much worse.

[wikktor]

If you care about battery life in a flash light, wouldn't the first choice be to ditch the incandescent bulb and go for a proper LED flash light?
This is a bit like overclocking a 20 year old PC.

Yes - this is product to improve a crappy product performance...
They didn't even show name of flashlight. I would like to compare it with my 10$ convoy s2+...

[lpickup]

The problem is that they claim a 5.5x improvement in their video, by arbitrary choosing 50% lux and carefully positioning the beams etc.,

Well of course...they are going to cherry pick devices to test and make up whatever rules they decide to show their product in the most favorable light.

Why is this surprising?  Do you guys believe everything you see in other advertising?

Sure, on the bell curve of inflated claims this is quite a ways out there, but it's not like I would expect them to show something that only showed minimal or no benefit (even though I'm sure their "labs" are littered with tests that didn't perform adequately and were rejected.

[Fungus]

Why is this surprising?  Do you guys believe everything you see in other advertising?

There's actually laws against misleading advertising, eg. you can't advertise cars that do "up to 1000mpg!"

I doubt anybody in the government cares about Batteroo's claims but I hope there's no big retailer stupid enough to sign a deal based on this video.

[Kean]

but I hope there's no big retailer stupid enough to sign a deal based on this video.

Big retailers basically don't sign risky deals, especially with newcomers.  They just don't have to.  All risk would be on the supplier.  This means for Batteroo to get these into someplace like Walmart, they would often be required to supply large quantities of product up front, it would be supplied on consignment, payment terms for any sales would be 90 days or more, they'd be taking a decent percentage of the profit, and the retailer could ship back any unsold or returned stock at any time.  I talked about this in one of the other related threads.

[lpickup]

There's actually laws against misleading advertising, eg. you can't advertise cars that do "up to 1000mpg!"

I doubt anybody in the government cares about Batteroo's claims but I hope there's no big retailer stupid enough to sign a deal based on this video.

When it comes to fuel economy in automobiles, that is a highly regulated industry.  Not only can they not make such a claim, even if they were able to rig a test that shows that they got that number (like going down a ridiculously huge hill), they have to follow a very closely prescribed test procedure to back up that claim.  And when they don't and try to cheat (VW), they get in huge trouble.

But there is nothing stopping more run of the mill products from making some pretty outrageous claims.  And I'm not just talking about the infomercials you tend to see in overnight programming.

[EEVblog]

but I hope there's no big retailer stupid enough to sign a deal based on this video.

Big retailers basically don't sign risky deals, especially with newcomers.  They just don't have to.  All risk would be on the supplier.  This means for Batteroo to get these into someplace like Walmart, they would often be required to supply large quantities of product up front, it would be supplied on consignment, payment terms for any sales would be 90 days or more, they'd be taking a decent percentage of the profit, and the retailer could ship back any unsold or returned stock at any time.  I talked about this in one of the other related threads.

Why do you think they have on their board the former CEO of K-Mart (he's now jumped ship it seems). And a guy from ""big box" computer and electronics retailer CompUSA and auto parts retailer CSK Auto, small box retailer Radio Shack and several international business conglomerates"
I thought there was another one too at one point? 
They want to go in the back door.

[StillTrying]

I'm only getting 4 results with batteroo or @batteroo - it was lots earlier. 

https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&q=%40batteroo&src=typd
Nothing came up for that search, which is a little weird. Maybe check what you searched for and try again.

[Kean]

I'm only getting 4 results. 

https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&q=%40batteroo&src=typd
Nothing came up for that search, which is a little weird. Maybe check what you searched for and try again.

Their Twitter account is actually @GoBatteroo.

[FrankBuss]

I'm only getting 4 results with batteroo or @batteroo - it was lots earlier. 

https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&q=%40batteroo&src=typd
Nothing came up for that search, which is a little weird. Maybe check what you searched for and try again.

Here you go:

https://twitter.com/search?q=gobatteroo

There are some nice images of broken Batteroo sleeves

[StillTrying]

Here you go:
https://twitter.com/search?q=gobatteroo

Clicking on LATEST is till acting strange for me, often giving just a couple of results, must be an interweb network thing