Author Topic: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)  (Read 2164909 times)

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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #50 on: June 06, 2015, 03:03:43 am »
Oh, yeah, and you were supposed to attach the sticker under the battery.
I thought these stickers got sold to protect the brain of the user!
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Offline PA0PBZ

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #51 on: June 06, 2015, 03:18:45 am »
Oh, yeah, and you were supposed to attach the sticker under the battery.
I thought these stickers got sold to protect the brain of the user!

Both, and it was the same sticker!  :-DD
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Offline mikerj

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #52 on: June 06, 2015, 03:24:58 am »
I didn't read the literature but if the technology is so good then why stay small,
example ; Solar System Batteries, Rechargeable Cars, UPS Batteries. etc.

Their key tech seems to be in ultra militarisation, something you don't really need for that big boy stuff.

There's plenty of money in defence contracts :D
 

Offline mushroom

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #53 on: June 06, 2015, 03:44:46 am »
I think that this product
 

Offline mushroom

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #54 on: June 06, 2015, 04:03:29 am »
I think that this product *COULD* be interesting in certain circumstances !

Some time ago, I had a look into the box where my wife and my daughter drop their used batteries. MOST OF THEM where 1.3 to 1.4 V !!! About 30 batteries in a box containing 40 to 50. I dont know all the gadgets they use batteries for, but the devices did'nt work anymore, and they said "bat lo"... This is measurements, not only readings.

But I have a mouse which claims very long battery life, and most likely includes a boost converter (dont remember exactly, but it is what I have been thinking of when I got it : a Microsoft touch mouse). The mouse works until the batteries reach 0.9 or 1.0 V (to be verified).

I run this mouse for months with used batteries only ! (less than 1.3 V)

This product could be interesting for old devices. I imagine that many low power more recent devices already include boost converters (?).

IMHO, product is not BS, but advertising is.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #55 on: June 06, 2015, 04:09:57 am »
Fail.

You're not supposed to put this on a new battery and use it all the time, you're supposed to put it on a 'dead' battery so you can keep on using it a bit longer.

 

Offline Wytnucls

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #56 on: June 06, 2015, 06:17:38 am »
An alkaline AA battery that measures 1.4V~1.3V open voltage, is usually unusable in a device that requires 1.1V or more to operate properly (~100mA).
A voltage booster will indeed prolong the life of the battery, by using energy available below its end voltage (0.8V). It is actually mentioned in a Duracell guidance document linked below.
The novelty lies in the reduced size of the converter circuit, which can fit on top of a standard battery.
The 800% increase in battery life seems far fetched though and would have to be confirmed independently.





« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 06:57:09 am by Wytnucls »
 

Offline dentaku

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #57 on: June 06, 2015, 06:26:35 am »
So that's what Jon Philips is doing these days. He used to be at Maximum PC.
 

Offline Unixon

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #58 on: June 06, 2015, 06:44:47 am »
Sorry about the length  :( you know I planed 10 minutes  ;D
Good job, Dave. IMO, the longer the better. Especially when it is a teardown, a review or a tutorial. Hasty shallow videos are quite disappointing and no fun at all.
 

Offline 0b01010011

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #59 on: June 06, 2015, 06:45:25 am »
more energy/voltage confusion, not to mention 'Wi-Fi will power the universe' bs from none other than the BBC

Power beamed to camera via wi-fi
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-33020523

 

Offline MrAl

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #60 on: June 06, 2015, 07:49:39 am »
Hello there,

The video was pretty nice, i watched the whole thing.

When i first heard about this product i looked at the data sheets and found that if the device cuts out at about 1.3v then the 'new' product could provide about 300 percent of the normal run time, which is 200 percent more.  But then after looking at other data such as internal resistance and most boost converters efficiency (it goes down for a lot of reasons) i had to bring that down to 200 percent total, which is only a 100 percent gain.  That's at least something, but again, we cant forget, that is if the device cuts out at 1.3v.  I dont think i have any devices that cut out that high, and if we allow that threshold to drop to 1.2v, then we dont get a real lot more out of it, if anything.

What i think they should do is buck up to the fact that they have a really dippy product, and instead of trying to pass it off as is, sell it as a battery booster that can boost an AA cell up to maybe 3 to 4 volts or maybe even 9v.  At least then it might be worth something.  But yes, then there is the all important question of just how much current can it really put out since it is so small.  We'd have to actually test one to be sure.  Small MOSFETs and small inductors can do a decent amount of current these days, but the package they are using is not just small, it's super small.

Another question i had was about the physical size.  Just how much longer does it make the AA cell.  If it's even a small amount longer it could actually ruin the original contacts of the device it is being used in, making it impossible to use with regular batteries after a time.  It could even crack the plastic housing of an AA or double AA housing if it is that cheap styrene type, or warp other types of plastics.

This reminds me of the old Rayovac rechargeable alkalines.  Anyone remember them?  They only took a charge like 15 times when the claim was much much higher.  But they did work in my TI programmable calculator because they had higher terminal voltage.  That was the only thing they were good for however.

 

Offline mcinque

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #61 on: June 06, 2015, 08:29:11 am »
Dave, thank you for the video. I really enjoy when you debunk scams like that. The part where you describe the issue with the + of the battery and the metal chassis of the batterizer was a total ROTFL.  :-DD :-DD

Thanks again!  :-+
I'm basically still a rookie and because of this, even with the best intentions, I often say bullshit :)
 

Offline thewyliestcoyote

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #62 on: June 06, 2015, 09:05:21 am »
Dave Great Video,
Thanks,

I am working for a company that is working on very long lived low power devices. One of my junior engineers found this product and yesterday very loudly pushed it all the way up to the owner of the company (Not me and they are not a engineer). Needless to say this took a couple of hours to explain to them on why this is BULL SHIT and would not work and why this should not be designed into everything we are doing.

Dave you explanation was much better than mine,

Thanks
 

Offline LaurenceW

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #63 on: June 06, 2015, 09:50:56 am »
Battery life on just about all moderm electronics products is their achilles' heel. To gain commercial advantage, manufacturers will pull every trick in the book to make THEIR gizmo last longer than a competitor's, by better battery management and, where applicable, buck/boost converters in their power conditioning circuits.

So IF some external electronic snake-oil was going to have ANY effect on product longevity (on one set of batteries), don't you think that the manufacturers would have already built the same technology into their products, for the competitive edge it would give them? Only they don't do it, because it doesn't work (for 90% of all devices).

Isn't it mildly depressing how gullible so many people can be, about these sort of stories?  Then again, it also amazes me that 7% of Americans belive the moon landings were faked (Source:Space.com); so perhaps I should be depressed yes, but not surprised, about this fake. Pass me my homeopathic headache tablets!
If you don't measure, you don't get.
 

Offline kedwards22

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #64 on: June 06, 2015, 10:03:32 am »
Another thing to consider is conducted/radiated noise. To get the magnetics small the boost converter is probably running in the MHz range and there's no space for shielding or effective output filtering. There's also a good chance that the converter is not fixed frequency, maybe a simpler fixed on time control scheme. In that case the switching frequency and noise will be all over the spectrum. Good luck using it in a wireless device.
 

Offline DanielS

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #65 on: June 06, 2015, 10:52:08 am »
I had a 1GB MPIO MP3 player that was nearly hopeless on AAA NiMH batteries so I ended up connecting it to an external AA battery to get a day out of the thing. I never measured what its cut-off voltage was but I would guess it was not very far down the NiMH discharge curve.
 

Online NiHaoMike

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #66 on: June 06, 2015, 01:35:16 pm »
One case where a large percentage of the battery capacity is wasted is in high drain devices like digital cameras. But such a booster will not be useful for that and the only way to use the remaining capacity is in lower drain devices like clocks.
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Offline SaabFAN

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #67 on: June 06, 2015, 02:32:22 pm »
The 800% figure could hold up when taking a medium current device like a Xbox-Controller and one of these ultra-cheap Alkalines.
In my experience, the cheap ones can cause the controller to fail at 1,3V Open-Loop Cell-Voltage.
Good batteries and Ni-Mh Accumulators can power my controller down to 1,1V or even 0,9V (accumulator).

What is missing in the video: Discharging an Alkaline right down to the point where it is completely empty highly increases the chance that it starts leaking.
Try leaving a fresh battery inside a powered flashlight (the old ones without LEDs) for 3 or 4 days and they most likely start spilling their guts.

The only place where I can see a real use for these devices: LED Flashlights that use only a resistor with the LED in series, instead of a proper Driver-IC (Which I assume is true for about 90% of all available types of LED-Flashlights). With the Batteriser, there would be no fading of the light-intensity when the battery-voltage drops. Only problem there: Most of these LED-Lamps I know use one or several AAA-Batteries.

So in conclusion, it is, and probably will be for quite some time, cheaper, greener and generally better to just use Accumulators, like I'm doing for about 10 years now :)

Offline ebastler

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #68 on: June 06, 2015, 04:30:46 pm »
Maybe the Batteriser founder has simply misunderstood the expert he asked for a statement...

Dr. Kiumars Parvin of San Jose State University is quoted to have said: “We tested the Batteriser sleeve in our lab and we confirmed that the Batteriser taps into 80 percent of energy that is usually thrown away,”.  He did not say "... taps into the 80 percent of energy that is usually thrown away." He probably mant to say - or maybe even said, and is quoted incorrectly: "... taps into 80 percent of the energy that is usually thrown away." That would actually make sense, taking the converter losses and some remaining unusable capacity at <0.6V into account.

Just omitting a single word makes that quote so much more effective in advertising  ::)
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #69 on: June 06, 2015, 04:45:26 pm »
Fail.
You're not supposed to put this on a new battery and use it all the time, you're supposed to put it on a 'dead' battery so you can keep on using it a bit longer.

Read their website, that is not what they imply. Use on new batteries seems the primary usage scenario.
 

Offline bitwelder

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #70 on: June 06, 2015, 05:27:13 pm »
As 1.5V batteries as often used in series, is there any issue related to have a series of boost converters?
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #71 on: June 06, 2015, 06:34:06 pm »
Just came across this website:

The Baloney Detection Kit: Carl Sagan’s Rules for Bullshit-Busting and Critical Thinking
http://www.brainpickings.org/2014/01/03/baloney-detection-kit-carl-sagan/
There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 

Offline G7PSK

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #72 on: June 06, 2015, 06:36:11 pm »
As the battery gets run down not only the voltage drops but so is it's ability to discharge at the same current. therefore even if you bring the voltage up again due to the current draw many devices still wont work. In fact you will need a greater current as you are converting current to voltage with the boost circuit. But of course on this forum we are all trying to teach granny to suck eggs to some extent, put the device on a supermarket shelf and it will fly off and do exactly what it is intended to do-Make money.
 

Offline PeterL

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #73 on: June 06, 2015, 06:44:27 pm »
I have got to admit, the more I think of it, the more I think this man is a genius. If you can make a boost converter so small that it fit's on a battery, that's a top job, regardless the specs of this converter.

But than he hires a Uni-dr. to do some tests on his product, and then get's him to do a nice quote on camera. That quote was of course all he came to the uni for, Dr. Parvin probably didn't have a clue what was really going on. (Well that's what I can image has happened, I'm actually really interested in Dr. Parvin's side of the story here).

And than someone broke into his office, and turns this event into his favour by concluding they were after the IP. (sublimative message: It was the established industry).

But guys like this will always be there, heck they might even believe in their product.
And exaggerating the benefits of your own product isn't new either, just watch the commercials.

IMHO We should point a the media here who write about this without any reservation. How can you not be sceptical after reading 800% improvement? These journalist are just so horny for getting a scoop, that they just don't mind giving a podium to people that don't deserve it. And just read the reactions on those sites, and see how many people actually believe in this crap.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 06:47:47 pm by PeterL »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #74 on: June 06, 2015, 07:05:26 pm »
But than he hires a Uni-dr. to do some tests on his product, and then get's him to do a nice quote on camera.

The thing I don't get is why he even had to do that?

Look at his LinkedIn profile:
Quote
Prior to Batteriser, Dr. Roohparvar served as CEO and President of Flexpower, a subsidiary of Flextronics. After being told it couldn't be done, Dr. Roohparvar and his team re-designed the original iPhone charger, reducing size by 40% and creating the smallest charger in the world. Prior to Flexpower, Dr. Roohparvar served as Vice President and General Manager at Broadcom, in charge of their Power Management Business Unit. In addition to launching Batteriser, Dr. Roohparvar is also a professor at California State University, East Bay, teaching computer science and computer engineering classes. Dr. Roohparvar received his Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering from Iowa State University.

A guy with that experience isn't capable of thoroughly testing it himself and presenting the results in a way that proves it works as claimed?  :-//
Products like this don't need BS marketing numbers, it will sell itself. The miniaturization tech which he seems to specialise in must be impressive to fit in the space. I can't wait to see it myself, I'll buy some when they go on pre-sale.
To ruin it with silly pie-in-the-sky marketing numbers is a real shame. At the price it would have still sold like hot cakes if they simply said 50% extra life or whatever on average.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 07:07:08 pm by EEVblog »
 


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