EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[LabSpokane]

It is likely incidental emissions, just miss-stated the first time.
You guys think all of this is BS. Quite funny.

I wish this was haha funny. This is now just a sad train wreck 

Batteroo's claims are readily demonstrable, utter bullshit.

Show us a specific, reproducible claim. Thus far, no one has been able to reproduce a single one of Batteroo's claims. And it is not for lack of time and expense trying. I've actually gone out of my way and purchased devices to test because these claims are so extraordinary.

[edy]

All of this drama and craziness taken aside, I thank Batteriser for actually helping me learn more about electronics. With help from all the pro's in the forum, we hobbyists have gained quite a bit of understanding and more interest in battery power curves, boost circuits and practical limitations of battery powered devices. That's the main value of this thread, even though it is fun to speculate and rant about the motives and ethical indiscretions involved by the founders, the flip-flopping and non-sense with IndieGogo campaign, the increasingly amusing video rebuttals and now "meatpuppets" trolling the campaigns, forums and YouTube channel looking to attack anyone who asks a serious question. The scientific value alone is a valuable pursuit. It just so happens that it took something like Batteriser to kick off the educational opportunity.

So back to electronics. If I were to design, say, a constant current load on a battery to test drainage, could I use a variable resistor which adjusts according to the amperage setting desired for the drain current? For example, V=IR so as the battery depletes through a constant resistive load, the current will also decrease. If I wish to maintain a constant current, I would need to vary my resistive load and decrease it as my voltage drops to maintain the same current. I imagine I could use a discrete component which intrinsically keeps the current constant as it passes over it, or some comparator which evaluates the current and can vary resistances to keep the current constant?

I'm looking it up on Google... constant current source circuit... See educational off-shoots are abundant!

[EEVblog]

The scientific value alone is a valuable pursuit. It just so happens that it took something like Batteriser to kick off the educational opportunity.

I've had many battery related videos on the channel for years before Batteriser came long 
But yeah, great discussions have arisen on this thread because of it.

[edy]

I've had many battery related videos on the channel for years before Batteriser came long 
But yeah, great discussions have arisen on this thread because of it.

I will have to look them up! Many of us who subscribed to EEVBlog at different times have missed your earlier videos. I try to keep current (no pun intended) with every new video, but there will be repetition of course as beginners "re-discover" something the more experienced folks take as obvious.  Looking forward to more fundamental Fridays and learning what is going on in basic circuits!

[EEVblog]

I will have to look them up!

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvOlSehNtuHtj5Ubhx7govoBfNkyUO4Pp

[ccs46]

Whatever you do, don't sit back while telling someone else [Dave] to get going.

https://youtu.be/vfCLlhd76zU

[edy]

I will have to look them up!

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvOlSehNtuHtj5Ubhx7govoBfNkyUO4Pp

Awesome!!!  Yeah that was definitely before I found out about EEVBlog. I'm glad you made those categorized playlists. This one looks like exactly the answer I was looking for...

[coppice]

Not to mention the Olympus C3040 is a 14 year old digital camera:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympusc3040z

Being a 14 year old camera is irrelevant, but being an Olympus camera is highly relevant. Olympus make some great products, and I've owned quite a few. However, a number of their cameras and flashguns will not turn on when you put rechargeable batteries in them. 1.25V per cell is just not enough to start them. The C3040 is a model of that kind. My wife had one, and loved it. However we always had to run it on primary cells.

[Fungus]

However, a number of their cameras and flashguns will not turn on when you put rechargeable batteries in them. 1.25V per cell is just not enough to start them.

Sounds like bad design to me. DC boost circuits cost less than 50 cents.

[Galenbo]

All of this drama and craziness taken aside, I thank Batteriser for actually helping me learn more about electronics. With help from all the pro's in the forum, we hobbyists have...

+1, Dr Roohpavar was the guy who created the false claims and controversy, Dave explained how and what, but in the end, I learnt a lot.
I am an EE working as machine designer, but never had to deal with battery powered.

Of course buck/boost and series resistance was known, but a lot of details and methods came to my eyes in this tread.
I hope some of the questions I still have get answered one day.

[meeder]

I have to agree with Galenbo, I gained a lot of knowledge by following this soap opera. You get lessons in electronics and electronic design and on top of that you get a marketing masterclass from the Batteriser crew! :-)

[dexters_lab]

out of interest, how many here intend to buy the batteriser with the aim to test and disprove the claims?

[firewalker]

And within ONE day, Dr. Roohparvar has already retracted his claim regarding FCC compliance.

Glad we could help, Bob!

I was almost sure that they will change it. That's why I screen captured it.

Alexander.

[Galenbo]

out of interest, how many here intend to buy the batteriser with the aim to test and disprove the claims?

I think I openly refuse it if someone gives it as a present.
But that's pure hypothetical, "it" will never exist.

[Fungus]

Dave,

I was just watching EEVBLOG #139:

Did you ever get that thing working? 5V @ 500mA from a single AA battery seems very ambitious. If you were looking at 50-60% efficiency on the datasheets then that's a battery current of over 4 Amps!

[dexters_lab]

out of interest, how many here intend to buy the batteriser with the aim to test and disprove the claims?

I think I openly refuse it if someone gives it as a present.
But that's pure hypothetical, "it" will never exist.

oh i think it will exist

there does seem to be a difference to what people are expecting and what batteriser claim it will do

they are being very careful in their marketing wording. My belief is the product will only be effective in a small number of cases, but people will buy based on their perceptions. This is common for many products marketing words are spun not to make a claim but to fool the buyer into thinking it does more than they claim.

[EEVblog]

Did you ever get that thing working? 5V @ 500mA from a single AA battery seems very ambitious.

It was for a D cell.

[Galenbo]

oh i think it will exist

there does seem to be a difference to what people are expecting and what batteriser claim it will do

They are changing the claims and details in every scientific paper they publish (in the form of "video" in their culture)
So maybe after reviewing the claims enough, there will be something, but it will not be conform to the specs they made at the start of the indigogo period.
And the new "detail" that popped up makes it unsure if it can legally be sold.

they are being very careful in their marketing wording.

I agree with that. It will continue like that, it's the guy's field of expertise.

Why did they replace the sexy twins with fattie in the last video?
Running out of budget, or are there marketing reasons also?

[ozone42]

Watched the EEVblog #779 on the Batteriser.
On the danger of shorting out the positive battery case with the negative contacted metal shell, my company built a flow meter for Tuthill Systems in Ft. Wayne, IN. It used 2 AA batteries in a metal battery battery clips. We switched to Panasonic batteries from Duracell to save money. We found that the plastic cover on the Panasonic was only around half as thick as the Duracell.
There was a large problem with piercing of the cover by the metal holder which dead shorted the battery at the negative end of the clip into the positive shell. Never had a fire in shipment, but had very scary swelled batteries with electrolyte leakage. Product DOA at customer. Went back to the Duracells and even occasionally pierced those. Anyway, I cringe when I see the "stylish" metal cover on the Batteriser. It appears to have an edge that could cut into the positive case of the battery going around the corner on the end of the battery. Fail!

[Bud]

Why did they replace the sexy twins with fattie in the last video?

I am sure sex was part of the game. The girl in the famous "Batteries are not power supplies" video sounded almost as if she was undressing when reading the narrative.

[dexters_lab]

oh i think it will exist

there does seem to be a difference to what people are expecting and what batteriser claim it will do

They are changing the claims and details in every scientific paper they publish (in the form of "video" in their culture)
So maybe after reviewing the claims enough, there will be something, but it will not be conform to the specs they made at the start of the indigogo period.
And the new "detail" that popped up makes it unsure if it can legally be sold.

they are being very careful in their marketing wording.

I agree with that. It will continue like that, it's the guy's field of expertise.

Why did they replace the sexy twins with fattie in the last video?
Running out of budget, or are there marketing reasons also?

bring on the nerds for credability?

although it did make me laugh when it seemed he didn't know what he was doing:
https://youtu.be/622uCZ_pE0w?t=20m23s


as for the claims... they say "up to 8x", they never state a minimum or even a 'typical' or 'expected' value

[Fungus]

as for the claims... they say "up to 8x", they never state a minimum or even a 'typical' or 'expected' value

Should car makers be allowed to say, "Up to 100mpg!" in their adverts for huge-ass SUVs? No, of course not.

Advertising can be classed as 'false' even when the all claims are technically true.

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/media-resources/truth-advertising

[Galenbo]

bring on the nerds for credability?

although it did make me laugh when it seemed he didn't know what he was doing:

Doesn't look like the nerds I know. Those guys speak open and determined, don't care too much about the feelings of the guy that listens and especially if it's a hierarchic type.
I didn't do the effort to listen to what this guy had to say from his boss, his body language makes me think of the biggest arse-lickers I ran into.

[dcac]

Hopefully Batteriser Batteroo doesn't mind me reposting their YT replies here.

We decided to dedicate this video to teach and inform people batteries work under different loads and understand why there is so much remaining energy in discarded batteries. We are allowing independent testers and reviewers to do all those tests you are mentioning with our Media Test Kits.

Batteriser team were offered an exclusive by a couple big tech magazines similar to PC world (who did the first exclusive). It is not official yet, but I heard the names Wired magazine, Tech Crunch, and official electronic certification for retail stores. As of now, my information is very limited on which one is doing the exclusive, but I will announce it on this YouTube channel as soon as it is decided. It will most likely be published between 1-2 weeks from now. After the exclusive, we will send out additional Media Test Kits to anyone who wants one.

So it seems we should soon know more about the Batteriser actual performance.

Perhaps they even let Dave have one of those kits.

[edy]

I just noticed this (maybe it was there before?) but on the BATTERISER.COM home page, it now says:

"Tap into 80% more energy with Batteriser."

So 80% more means if think you used 100% of your battery, then 80% more gives you 180%? So you are just slightly less than doubling your battery use (1.8x use)? I mean, it stands to reason that if someone says "Get 100% more of something" you get DOUBLE of something. No? Or do they mean you use 20% of your battery and then the remaining 80% is unused so you are going from 20% to 100% which means you used 1/5th of your battery and you now tap into the 4/5th with the Batteriser?

Oh my god..  ... how can you keep track of what they are saying! 

Addendum:  I just noticed under in small letters it says batteries use 20% of energy and Batteriser makes use of the 80% so I guess it is still 5x more energy (where they get 8x I don't know).

Next they'll be saying (and probably the most accurate description) is "Batteriser let's you use more than 80% of your battery".