EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[Chipguy]

...
In this case, the politicians have the same complete mental block as we're seeing with Team Batteriser; that unshakeable faith that a deeply, fundamentally flawed idea can be made to work, even when the myriad reasons why it can never work have been spelled out to them in words of one syllable or fewer.
...

Yes you are right, best example is Germany at the moment. They tell us that migrants are a good thing and call them refugees.
They are not, but the politicians can not admit that since they have ridden the country too far into the shit.
The same thing that prevents Roohparvar vom quitting and saying "OK, nice thought, doesn't work, let's stop all that" also prevents our chancellorette from saying "Bad idea, they are no refugees, we need to send them back ASAP".
Admitting to be completely wrong is a strength that both of them don't have.

BTW that migrant topic was just an example to explain that psychologial mechanism. I know it's OT and we should not discuss that in here any further.

[Smokey]

Being a president or CEO does not imply technical competence, even at a large manufacturing company. It implies an ability to gain power. Bob demonstrates he does not care about technical competence.

I believe that Bob thinks that he has technical competence but I also agree with Dave and think that he is accustomed to actual engineers doing the bulk of the actual technical and design work for him and is probably a bit deluded...

The problem with this is that some actual engineer MUST have done the actual work at some point.  If they really have custom silicon, and we are portraying this Bob guy as just some idiot CEO, then there is no way he did that work.  Even if they don't have custom chips, that miniaturization job is pretty impressive if it even marginally works and once again no way an idiot clueless CEO did that work.   Somewhere there was a real engineer in the shadows.

[EEVblog]

Somewhere there was a real engineer in the shadows.

Real engineers work on Solar Roadways and uBeam et.al for *insert reason here*
Heck, even I've worked on my fair share of projects I knew wouldn't go anywhere. Take the $4k Altium Nanoboard 

[bills]

Somewhere there was a real engineer in the shadows.

Real engineers work on Solar Roadways and uBeam et.al for *insert reason here*(#1-money IE: capitalism)
Heck, even I've worked on my fair share of projects I knew wouldn't go anywhere. Take the $4k Altium Nanoboard 

#2. maybe fame

[Chipguy]

Real engineers work on Solar Roadways and uBeam et.al for *insert reason here*
Heck, even I've worked on my fair share of projects I knew wouldn't go anywhere. Take the $4k Altium Nanoboard 

LOL yeah, I am currently working on a fancy Windows tablet based multimeter that weights a whopping 1.67 kgs and feels like one of those old handheld scopes. I'm curious to see how that's gonna work out...

[photon]

Bateroo's is a new startup idea. Rather than selling their product to astute manufacturing buyers, which a "classical" startup targets, they are selling their product to an ignorant general public. When a classical startup fails, it's mostly the VCs who pay the bill since the customers usually do trials rather than purchases. For the new Bateroo type of startup, the general public helps the VCs pay the bill. This is how the term "scam" applies to Bateroo and their VC.

[AndyC_772]

I think the word 'scam' implies intent to deceive, which in turn requires a degree of understanding that what's being delivered (or not!) is in some way deficient compared to what the customer is expecting.

I'm not sure that's happening here, because I don't believe that part of the brain is actually active in anyone at Team Batteriser. They absolutely, genuinely believe that what they're developing will achieve what they say it will, and deleting comments that suggest otherwise really does make those problems go away.

What saddens me it that I don't think there ever will be that moment of dawning realisation, when products finally end up in the hands of enough people who will say "no, this doesn't do what you promised", and the Batteriser team has to finally acknowledge that they got it wrong.

Instead, the blinkers will stay on. Anyone performing quantitative testing will be "doing it wrong"; any product whose life is not extended will be "one of the few products" in which a Batteriser doesn't give "typical" performance. Life *will* be rosy, right up until the point when they actually get sued for trademark infringement and have to pull the plug. Then we'll get the crying about "big battery" shutting them down.

[photon]

They absolutely, genuinely believe that what they're developing will achieve what they say it will, and deleting comments that suggest otherwise really does make those problems go away.

No, Bateroo and their VC know they have a failed product. They have no choice but to deliver first product.

[Mr.B]

I believe that Bob thinks that he has technical competence but I also agree with Dave and think that he is accustomed to actual engineers doing the bulk of the actual technical and design work for him and is probably a bit deluded...

I agree completely... except for the word bit, I would change that to completely.
Yes, completely deluded.

In previous statements made by Dave and others, I agree that "uncle Bob" thought it would be an easy sell to convince the VC investors, the Walmart buyers and the naive public that he had the elixir of battery life and the savior of the throwaway society...  Then the unexpected happened for him.. Real engineers did the math... Real engineers published the facts...
To paraphrase and take liberties on what someone said earlier - Bob is down a rabbit hole he cannot get out of and has been forced to double down on his bet while he puts unrealistic pressure on his inexperienced junior engineers.

He and his dickhead brother clearly have no idea about what they have dreamed up and are expecting some "sort of" engineers to solve the problem for them... A typical CEO mentality...

The sad part about this is that he and his brother will walk away from this almost unscathed, and will live to scam another day...
Very sad...

[Fungus]

While facing the challenge of working during the Chinese New Year holiday season, two of our executive team members have been in China and Taiwan working very closely with our contract manufacturer these past few weeks.

Well, at least the "Chinese New Year" excuse didn't disappoint. 

As a result of this productive collaboration and our team’s diligence, our Contract Manufacturer has confirmed their commitment to ship Batterisers this coming March.

...their commitment? Not yours.

Uhuh.

I still say it's all lies and they'll never ship a single Batteriser. The trademark dispute will be "revealed" in a couple of months time after which they'll "run out of money" (unless they can get some VC to pay their legal bills...in which case they'll draw it out for as long as possible before declaring failure).

Any takers?

[amyk]

In contrast, a "free energy" device that really couldn't possibly exist... has actually shipped:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/stoern-orbo-free-energy-scam-they're-still-at-it!/msg864414/#msg864414

...and if you look at the links in that thread, there appears to be plenty of actual pictures of the product, and scenes that show some sort of work is happening, despite how impossible it is. Batteriser have shown nowhere near that level of work thus far.

[EEVblog]

In contrast, a "free energy" device that really couldn't possibly exist... has actually shipped:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/stoern-orbo-free-energy-scam-they're-still-at-it!/msg864414/#msg864414

I can't believe they shipped something.
Once you ship the game is up soon after.

[Fungus]

In contrast, a "free energy" device that really couldn't possibly exist... has actually shipped:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/stoern-orbo-free-energy-scam-they're-still-at-it!/msg864414/#msg864414

I can't believe they shipped something.
Once you ship the game is up soon after.

Depends on who you ship to...  Some people want to believe. 

Plus: If there's no screws and it's all full of opaque potting compound then it would take serious effort to show it's full of AA batteries (or whatever).

[Brumby]

We know someone with an X-ray machine....

That would be a good way to start.   

[Jay_Diddy_B]

Hi Group,

Around the middle of December, the Batteroo team announced that they were having problems with a new IC designed for this application:

Dear Indiegogo supporters,

I want to take this opportunity to wish you and your families Happy Holidays and a wonderful New Year full of happiness, joy, and prosperity. I also want to give you another summary update with regards to our product shipment.

With each passing day,  we are getting closer and closer to shipping your Batterisers. As you may recall, we initially planned to ship the 500 milli-amp beta version of the Batteriser; however, we made a strategic decision to deliver Batterisers with a  new IC (Integrated circuit) capable of driving 1300 milli-amps of steady state current. We did this because the new version will make Batteriser more compatible with a wider range of devices, and we want to give our backers the absolute best final product that we believe they deserve. Unfortunately, in the construction of the updated Batteriser IC, we encountered unexpected technical fabrication process related issues which caused us to miss our estimated November shipping date.... 


So what would it take to do this?

Here is a little Boost Converter Maths:

I_{out (MAX)} = (I_sw(peak) – (I_ripple/2)) V_in/(V_out + V_diode)

I_ripple is normally chosen to be I_out x 0.4
(40% ripple current)

Rearranging to get the peak switch current:

I_sw(max) = 1.2 x I_out(max) x ((V_out + V_diode)/V_in)

So if we have:

I_out(max) = 1A (less than the 1300mA above)

V_out = 1.5V

V_in(min) = 0.8V

V_diode = 0.1V (synchronous rectifier)

I_sw(max) = 1.2 x 1 x ((1.5 + 0.1)/0.8V)

I_sw(max) = 2.4A

If I recalculate for 1300mA

I get I_sw(max)= 3.12A

This is a big switch.


Now to the IC design. One of the first, and really successful, low-voltage, integrated circuits was designed by the late, great Bob Widlar. The IC is the LM10. It is reported that it took Widlar a long time ( 5 years) to develop this IC. For the young kids, the LM10 is a combination of 200mV (sub-bandgap) reference and a rail-to-rail op-amp that work down to a Vin of 1.2V. The LM10 and the similar LT1635 are still in production after 30+ years.

To drive a switch either BJT or MOSFET from the input (0.8V) is going to be difficult. It is possible to drive the switch with power from the output (1.5V) once the circuit has started.

There are some BOOST ICs that will start from a very low voltage (the LTC3108 will start from just 20mV). This is achieved with depletion mode devices. There are more ICs that will start from 0.5V

I wonder how 'Uncle Bob's' IC is working?

(I am surprised one of the supports of the IGG campaign has asked for an update on the mid-December report.)


Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

[BravoV]

The IC is the LM10. It is reported that it took Widlar a long time ( 5 years) to develop this IC. For the young kids, the LM10 is a combination of 200mV (sub-bandgap) reference and a rail-to-rail op-amp that work down to a Vin of 1.2V. The LM10 and the similar LT1635 are still in production after 30+ years.

I wonder how 'Uncle Bob's' IC is working?

C'mon, even Bob Widlar took 5 years, "Uncle Boob" definitely will be faster than that, maybe less than 5 years. 

[SL4P]

C'mon, even Bob Widlar took 5 years, "Uncle Boob" definitely will be faster than that, maybe less than 5 years. 

Someone has to say it...  maybe 5x faster...?
So he'll be due soon.

[lpickup]

Dear Indiegogo supporters,
I want to take this opportunity to wish you and your families Happy Holidays and a wonderful New Year full of happiness, joy, and prosperity.


(I am surprised one of the supports of the IGG campaign has asked for an update on the mid-December report.)

You mean like how prosperous the Roo Bros have become after having taken all their backers' money?

[Jay_Diddy_B]

C'mon, even Bob Widlar took 5 years, "Uncle Boob" definitely will be faster than that, maybe less than 5 years. 

Someone has to say it...  maybe 5x faster...?
So he'll be due soon.

Batteroo land it would have to be 800% faster. It might be possible. When Widlar did it, he was breaking new ground on many fronts.

Examining a BJT datasheet shows some of the difficulties in designing the output stage.

Here are clips from a FZT849 datasheet. The FZT849 is a very good bipolar transistor. The designer optimized the part to have good characteristics at high collector currents.



If operated in the saturated mode, forced Beta, BJT have slow turn-off time:



This shows the relationship between Vce and Ic:



This shows the Vbe required to achieve a certain Ic:




I have highlighted the operating point that the IC would need to operate at.


This is a discrete transistor. The transistor  inside an IC would have similar properties.

There are similar issues with a MOSFET.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

[AlxDroidDev]

To drive a switch either BJT or MOSFET from the input (0.8V) is going to be difficult. It is possible to drive the switch with power from the output (1.5V) once the circuit has started.

Maybe  they'll require one or two CR2032 to power the batterizer!!! 

[rrinker]

 I think you got it - all it really is under that fancy skin is a small battery! Like the fake shakelights a friend of mine got once - for some reason, he bought a whole case of these things from eBay, and when he got them, it turned out the moving magnet and coil were all just for show - they all had a battery inside directly connected to the switch and LED. No charging circuitry, nothing. When he complained to the seller, the response he got is a classic: "Well sell two kinds of shake lights, one with batteries and one without". He ended up returning them all for a refund - but before returning them he switched every last one on and left them on until the batteries died.

[Galenbo]

In contrast, a "free energy" device that really couldn't possibly exist... has actually shipped:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/stoern-orbo-free-energy-scam-they're-still-at-it!/msg864414/#msg864414

...and if you look at the links in that thread, there appears to be plenty of actual pictures of the product, and scenes that show some sort of work is happening, despite how impossible it is. Batteriser have shown nowhere near that level of work thus far.

That's where the opposites of the spectrum touch eachother. For a "possible" product there's nothing to hide, and for the most unexistable product, there's nothing to prove or debunk.
It's inbetween the two, when there's doubt, controversy,... that a culture of confusion and distraction has to be maintained.

It's a big earning model too these days. You can start by ripping money of "believers", see it as a tax on stupidity for them, and afterwards, divert the critical to a site/forum with publicity at the sides, top and/or bottom.

[bitwelder]

It's well known that Bob was the former President of Flextronics for 4 years:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/bob-roohparvar-73b6b15
Also CEO of Flexpower, a subsidiary of Flextronics.

And also honorary president of Flexdelivery ! 

[Jay_Diddy_B]

Hi,

Over on the IGG site we have a couple of backers asking for photographs:



It will be interesting to see how they respond. The Spring Festival in China is coming to an end and the CM should be back at work.

The options include:

1) It is secret, we can not show you the pieces.

2) The two Batteroo Execs that visit China weren't allowed to take pictures.

3) The batteries in the camera were dead.

4) The dog ate the SD card.

4b) The monkey ate the SD card.

5) We plan to ship in March so you don't need photos.

6) The requests will disappear.

Any other ideas?

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

[rrinker]

 I'm going to bet on #6, the questions will disappear and those two people will be blocked. But that's an easy bet, seeing as how it's been the modus operandi of this gang all along.