Author Topic: EEVblog #779 - How To Measure Product Battery Cutoff Voltage  (Read 146459 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #779 - How To Measure Product Battery Cutoff Voltage
« Reply #75 on: August 13, 2015, 10:12:09 am »
O.k., so people want to know the main "professor" in the video:
Of the "campaigners" for the Batteriser (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story), one Chris Uken looks an awfully like this Instagram account person:
https://instagram.com/exellentc/

Looks like him.
But I think it's actually Mr Uken's project adviser Dr. Roger Doering
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/roger-doering/61/a17/3b2

Who is Mr Roohparvar's colleague at California State University, so that all makes sense he'd get one of his colleagues to do the video.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 10:16:01 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline apis

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Re: EEVblog #779 - How To Measure Product Battery Cutoff Voltage
« Reply #76 on: August 13, 2015, 10:28:17 am »
O.k., so people want to know the main "professor" in the video:
Of the "campaigners" for the Batteriser (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story), one Chris Uken looks an awfully like this Instagram account person:
https://instagram.com/exellentc/

Looks like him.
But I think it's actually Mr Uken's project adviser Dr. Roger Doering
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/roger-doering/61/a17/3b2

Who is Mr Roohparvar's colleague at California State University, so that all makes sense he'd get one of his colleagues to do the video.
Hmm, I found Doering's linkedin profile first as well and he looks very similar, but now when looking at Uken's myspace profile ( https://myspace.com/exellentc/photos ) which has some photos, he looks an awful lot like the guy in the video. Maybe Uken and Doering are related, could explain the connection, but him simply being a student also fit the bill. One of his professors could have offered him this job on the side...

Can't believe half the faculty is involved in this. :o

Kinda means the journalists have their backs clear since they are only really expected to verify credentials and they appear to be real.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 10:30:21 am by apis »
 

Offline orion242

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Re: EEVblog #779 - How To Measure Product Battery Cutoff Voltage
« Reply #77 on: August 13, 2015, 10:32:17 am »
We only know about the professor in the promo video, he was from San Jose State.

do they claim that in the video?
 

Offline AF6LJ

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Re: EEVblog #779 - How To Measure Product Battery Cutoff Voltage
« Reply #78 on: August 13, 2015, 10:46:03 am »
This just occurred to me just a minute ago, the short circuit current on a AA Alkaline battery can be surprisingly high, Maybe Dave knows the answer to that but I see problems here...

It will be approximately the current loaded voltage divided by the IR. But there is some added electrochemisty at play when you short like that.

I am wondering if it is going to be enough to be destructive to the item the batteries are installed in.
Sue AF6LJ
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Offline Jay_Diddy_B

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Re: EEVblog #779 - How To Measure Product Battery Cutoff Voltage
« Reply #79 on: August 13, 2015, 11:33:05 am »
I thought I would do a little digging into this myself. I read the FAQ at:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story

This is one of the questions:

What do you mean that we tap into 80% of a battery's unused energy? Where is the up to 8x coming from?


With millions of different devices designed by different companies with different specifications for different applications, one number does not fit all. Mileage will vary, and some devices will get more battery life extension from Batteriser than others. Instead of arguing the best design cases vs. the worst, it would make sense to look at ACTUAL data from the field.

Although there have not been a lot of studies on the amount of energy left in batteries as they are thrown away, a very well done study was presented in the International Conference for Battery Recycling by Dr. Rolf Zinniker. He collected "dead" batteries from 19 different recycling locations/centers and the resulting experiments and measurements showed the following results:






*Percentage relative to average charge in multiple types of batteries


This study shows that 10% of the batteries thrown away have roughly enough energy left in them to be considered Unused. 20% of the perceived "dead" batteries have, on average, 93% of their energy still left in them. This study further shows that if you take an average of 30% of the "least Dead" batteries, 84% of energy is still left inside. . If the device could have continued to operate at the same rate of power consumption until all the energy was drawn from the battery, the devices could have lasted roughly from 2 times to 14 times longer, based on this study. As can be seen from the actual real life data on batteries that are thrown away, Batteriser could significantly increase the battery's operating life by tapping into the energy that is thrown away. The full text of the study can be found at:

http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf


Let me start picking this apart.

The concept for unused energy comes from a study of batteries in a recycle bin.

This a non-representative sample. I would want to consider how many batteries end up in the recycle bin and how many end up in the landfill.

I could see how somebody had a product that didn't work or they didn't want it any more and separated the perfectly good batteries from the product for disposal.

I have probably discarded old, but perfectly good batteries, from equipment like camera flashes ( I am showing my age) and DMM because I did want the batteries to leak and damage the product.

If you take these batteries and put them in a product. The product will work.

You do not need anything to extract additional energy from this group of batteries. You simply need to put them in a functional product.


As a battery is de-pleated the ESR rises. This was demonstrated by the Monkey and the Cal State Professor.(Did you like the way I did that?)

These batteries may work in low power devices where the current draw is low.

Again nothing is needed - Just the desire to move the batteries to a low power device.

In short, the data obtained from the study of batteries in a recycle bin, is proof that people discard them without testing them. It is NOT evidence that products leave a lot of unused energy in the batteries. People did that.


The Batteriser is not available yet. But I would hazard a guess that it is low power synchronous boost regulator. It would look something like this:



The FB divider would be adjusted for Vout 1.5V

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 11:37:23 am by Jay_Diddy_B »
 

Offline aargee

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Re: EEVblog #779 - How To Measure Product Battery Cutoff Voltage
« Reply #80 on: August 13, 2015, 11:54:14 am »
I can see the laboratory power supply tutorials, I don't think I explain very well. Here is a drawing of what I mean.

ElectricChicken - Trying not to go tangential... look here http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/Seeeduino-Stalker-v3-p-1882.html

Dave - maybe the best way to do this is a small intro, with summary that it is bullsh!t and for further details, keep watching, then go into the rest of the video.
That way, people who take you at your word may decide to tune out and the rest will watch the blow by blow that follows.
Not easy, not hard, just need to be incentivised.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: EEVblog #779 - How To Measure Product Battery Cutoff Voltage
« Reply #81 on: August 13, 2015, 11:56:23 am »
This is all a bit of a sideline from their poor claims, they're dancing around the pulsed load condition which may or may not be better with their product under certain circumstances. There is no evidence from them showing lifespan improvements as per the standard tests Dave shows in the video and until they actually show some examples, arguments where they can hit some technically correct points are just adding to their marketing puff while avoiding the serious questions raised about their product claims.

With a little googling you can find the sort of tests used to backup claims of lifespan, attached to the post is an example. Thats the sort of evidence required to backup an advertised claim in Australia.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 12:02:20 pm by Someone »
 

Offline Someone

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Re: EEVblog #779 - How To Measure Product Battery Cutoff Voltage
« Reply #82 on: August 13, 2015, 12:01:20 pm »
Let me start picking this apart.

The concept for unused energy comes from a study of batteries in a recycle bin.

This a non-representative sample. I would want to consider how many batteries end up in the recycle bin and how many end up in the landfill.

I could see how somebody had a product that didn't work or they didn't want it any more and separated the perfectly good batteries from the product for disposal.

I have probably discarded old, but perfectly good batteries, from equipment like camera flashes ( I am showing my age) and DMM because I did want the batteries to leak and damage the product.

If you take these batteries and put them in a product. The product will work.

You do not need anything to extract additional energy from this group of batteries. You simply need to put them in a functional product.
The other way lightly used batteries end up in waste streams is that few people measure their batteries individually, I have removed sets of AA batteries from products that stopped working. Despite having installed sets of packaged batteries into the products, occasionally just 1 battery of the set will have a premature failure while the others still contain most of their original charge, binning and recycling of these batteries is easy when you have a multimeter but most consumers will declare all the batteries in the set depleted without testing and replace them all.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #779 - How To Measure Product Battery Cutoff Voltage
« Reply #83 on: August 13, 2015, 01:03:55 pm »
Although there have not been a lot of studies on the amount of energy left in batteries as they are thrown away, a very well done study was presented in the International Conference for Battery Recycling by Dr. Rolf Zinniker. He collected "dead" batteries from 19 different recycling locations/centers and the resulting experiments and measurements showed the following results:

Batteriser only found that info buy looking at this forum where someone posted it. Now they are using it as evidence  ::)
 

Offline Hugoneus

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Re: EEVblog #779 - How To Measure Product Battery Cutoff Voltage
« Reply #84 on: August 13, 2015, 01:37:11 pm »
This whole campaign is really frustrating to watch. There is clearly conflict of interest from people whom they interview.

Does anyone know how much money is actually involved in this company?
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Offline george graves

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Re: EEVblog #779 - How To Measure Product Battery Cutoff Voltage
« Reply #85 on: August 13, 2015, 01:58:26 pm »
Loved the un-used iron, and the scope probe!

Offline pickle9000

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Re: EEVblog #779 - How To Measure Product Battery Cutoff Voltage
« Reply #86 on: August 13, 2015, 02:27:01 pm »
This whole campaign is really frustrating to watch. There is clearly conflict of interest from people whom they interview.

Does anyone know how much money is actually involved in this company?

The Indiegogo campaign is at 220,000 (day 17 of 30) so 400,000 could be hit I guess. I'd bet they have capital and the igogo stuff is just advertising and coffee money. 
 

Offline amyk

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Re: EEVblog #779 - How To Measure Product Battery Cutoff Voltage
« Reply #87 on: August 13, 2015, 02:39:35 pm »
 

Offline redshift

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Re: EEVblog #779 - How To Measure Product Battery Cutoff Voltage
« Reply #88 on: August 13, 2015, 02:44:36 pm »
I nearly died laughing when Dave pointed out the terrible probe compensation  :-DD

Also, the "...not in any way affiliated with Batteriser..." thing in their youtube page seems like a way to remove themselves from blame later except that the exact same videos are also uploaded to their vimeo pro account and linked onto their official website... Weird.

By the way, I haven't been getting email updates for the last couple of videos. Anyone else having that issue?

 


Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #779 - How To Measure Product Battery Cutoff Voltage
« Reply #90 on: August 13, 2015, 03:07:48 pm »
This whole campaign is really frustrating to watch. There is clearly conflict of interest from people whom they interview.

Of course.
The Indiegogo video has the former CEO of K-Mart, because he's on the Batteriser board as the Chief Strategy Officer.
And it seems all the professors they are getting to support it are colleagues.
It's a big circle jerk thinking they have the greatest invention in history  ::)

Quote
Does anyone know how much money is actually involved in this company?

No idea. But clearly they are not just relying on the Indiegogo money. The money they must have already spent on the professional videos and marketing must be a lot. I suspect they don't really need the Indiegogo money, it's probably just a big pre-sales marketing vehicle and looks good to future investors.
 

Offline AmmoJammo

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #779 - How To Measure Product Battery Cutoff Voltage
« Reply #92 on: August 13, 2015, 03:12:02 pm »
In short, the data obtained from the study of batteries in a recycle bin, is proof that people discard them without testing them. It is NOT evidence that products leave a lot of unused energy in the batteries. People did that.

Bingo!

Quote
The Batteriser is not available yet. But I would hazard a guess that it is low power synchronous boost regulator. It would look something like this:

My guess is it's some form of PFM boost converter, because they need to best possible efficiency over the widest possible output power range.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #779 - How To Measure Product Battery Cutoff Voltage
« Reply #93 on: August 13, 2015, 03:17:16 pm »
I'll just stick this here ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuaA-rUBmEc&feature=youtu.be

Well there's a shock! A modern product dropping out at 0.9V per cell, it's a miracle!
Must be one of those edge cases, because the fountain of all battery wisdom Batteriser (now grungingly) say the majority of products drop out at 1.1V
 

Offline AmmoJammo

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Re: EEVblog #779 - How To Measure Product Battery Cutoff Voltage
« Reply #94 on: August 13, 2015, 03:23:03 pm »
I'll just stick this here ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuaA-rUBmEc&feature=youtu.be

Well there's a shock! A modern product dropping out at 0.9V per cell, it's a miracle!
Must be one of those edge cases, because the fountain of all battery wisdom Batteriser (now grungingly) say the majority of products drop out at 1.1V

Even on batteries! not just the power supply!

I'm not sure how "modern" a 17 year old device is, but the Sega Game Gear (first released in 1990, that's 25 years old!) drops out at 5.5volts for six series cells (about 0.9volts per cell too!)
 

Online edy

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Re: EEVblog #779 - How To Measure Product Battery Cutoff Voltage
« Reply #95 on: August 13, 2015, 03:29:10 pm »
Great video Dave!

Just to add to the learning opportunity here, if the monkey needs a certain amount of current to run, and the battery starts off with say 0.1 ohm IR does it deliver V/R=I amps? Or 1.5/0.1 = 15 amp potentially shorted? And when you deplete the battery and voltage drops to say 1.2 V and IR becomes 0.3 ohm, would we have 1.2/0.3 = 4 amp? Is that the idea? Sorry I may have the units off by a few orders of magnitude... I can't imagine 4 amp from a depleted battery... But is that the idea? (plus of course the resistance of the load under test).

So if monkey had a resistance of 1 ohm, under test the current would be 1.5/(0.1+1)=1.36 amp under load for a fresh battery, and 1.2/(0.3+1)=0.92 amp from a partially depleted battery?  Is that how the calculation is done? For the PSU you could keep dropping voltage down to 0.92 V and get same current since 0.92/(0+1)=0.92 amp.

I'd like to see some math. Also it is feeling a lot like "static" voltage arguments when you can generate thousands of volts on the carpet but the amount of charge is not enough for sustained current. Batteries use up the chemistry and so the rate of charge carrier generation slows. The reaction "builds up" a bunch of electrons (like static or a capacitor) but as soon as you turn on the monkey, it depletes all the charge carriers... Electrons get used up. Old used batteries can't generate enough new electrons per time to sustain current. You get little bursts like when the monkey in the video moved hands for a second and stopped with the dead batteries, and then when turned off a few seconds and then turned on again, it moved a little more. Like my electric toothbrush when the battery starts dying or shaver.

Is this way of understanding correct?
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Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #779 - How To Measure Product Battery Cutoff Voltage
« Reply #96 on: August 13, 2015, 03:32:35 pm »
Looks like him.
But I think it's actually Mr Uken's project adviser Dr. Roger Doering
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/roger-doering/61/a17/3b2
Nah, he's way older than the guy in the video. I'd go with Chris Uken.


« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 03:41:51 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline LabSpokane

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Re: EEVblog #779 - How To Measure Product Battery Cutoff Voltage
« Reply #97 on: August 13, 2015, 03:44:01 pm »
Looks like him.
But I think it's actually Mr Uken's project adviser Dr. Roger Doering
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/roger-doering/61/a17/3b2
Nah, he's way older than the guy in the video. I'd go with Chris Uken.

"Professor"?! Maybe he teaches as an adjunct, but "Professor" really means that one is employed in a tenure-track position - something I've not heard of an undergrad receiving. I'm not putting down undergrads, I am one, but that's how the system works. Nothing like adding false credentials to the list of misrepresentations.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopheruken

This guy just graduated last year.

Quote
Christopher Uken
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Senior Project
Biofeedback Mobility Group designed the Brainfingers Wheelchair Interface (BWI) for our client Dr. Bowen of California State University at East Bay that hopes to be one possible solution for increasing mobility. It is a Brain Computer Interface (BCI) controlled electric wheelchair. In this setup the Brainfingers BCI monitors brainwave signals and uses them to control a computer that is interfaced with the motor controllers on a Quickie P100 electric wheelchair.
Team members:Christopher Uken, Martha Paola Medina, Cheng-Kai Chen, Hoang Nguyen
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« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 03:56:04 pm by LabSpokane »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #779 - How To Measure Product Battery Cutoff Voltage
« Reply #98 on: August 13, 2015, 03:54:55 pm »
I'd like to see some math.

It's not just math when you are talking about the electrochemistry of a battery and the dynamic performance of the IR under load. You really have to get quantitative data by measuring it.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #779 - How To Measure Product Battery Cutoff Voltage
« Reply #99 on: August 13, 2015, 03:56:12 pm »
Nah, he's way older than the guy in the video. I'd go with Chris Uken.

Ok, I think you win the Internet. I'll go with Chris Uken too.
 


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