EEVblog #779 - How To Measure Product Battery Cutoff Voltage

[PA0PBZ]

403 Forbidden! Gotta go up one directory and manually find that gif

Once you do that the link works... 

[lpickup]

...
to supress the (harmfull) current transients a boost converter *may* help (at a cost). A fat bypass cap or L/C Filter may also do the job (maybe even better).

In this case it's probably just a software change:  be tolerant of "short" or very infrequent voltage dips below 1.1V before bringing up the warning screen/dimming the backlight.

[Fungus]

Which commercially available device uses something like the good old LM7805?

Arduino?

[FrankBuss]

An Arduino is a devboard and doesn't come with a battery holder. I mean a consumer device, like the Garmin GPS.

[FrankBuss]

Dave, do you plan to do a teardown of probes the monkey?

[Fungus]

An Arduino is a devboard and doesn't come with a battery holder. I mean a consumer device, like the Garmin GPS.

This is why putting this factoid as #1 in the batteriser video was misleading...if there even is such a device, almost nobody will have it. Batteriser acts as if it's a general case.

[SeanB]

Dave, do you plan to do a teardown of probes the monkey?

Probes will be a battery holder with the 2 moulded in brass contacts, 2 fairly thin wires leading from there to a gearbox using a cheap 3V DC motor and a power switch. Gearbox will have a mixture of gears inside, probably made from stamped steel and brass, or from a few plastic gear assemblies, reducing the motor shaft speed down to 1 RPM or so, and driving some cranked shafts that are used to clap the cymbals together, move the body up and down and finally to drive the small whistle that makes the noise. Not exactly complex, though to get it all together after you have it apart will be moderately difficult. Probably the same gearbox as used in many other "toys" to get the reciprocating motion, though there they might have speed control either using a variable resistor ( resistance wire wound around a piece of wire, with a resistance of around 5R total) or via a small COB unit with various pulsation patterns.

[FrankBuss]

Probably you are right and it is all mechanical. When the voltage drops, it gets slower, so no electronics like a 1 bit microcontroller controlling some solenoids.

[firewalker]

No, just a motor. That's why it work with almost dead batteries.

Alexander. 

[Rasz]

It's all gone weird now!
My 136 dislikes from Vietnam has decreased to 103 now... and the USA has apparently disliked the video 208 times....

Yep, mine too. The Veitnam ones are now showing negative numbers.

what about the Venezuela/Czech/Latvia ones? Those were also part of the bot/PR agency network. Were those also cancelled?
-1 usually means someone clicked thumbs whatever, and later clicked it again cancelling his action.

Something is happening
I do know that my video was forwarded inside Google.

Nice!

Dave, do you plan to do a teardown of probes the monkey?

How dare you! Sacrilege!!1

[Poe]

So who's the audience on these Batteriser videos?  99.99% of Dave's audience already understands what he's talking about. 

If Dave's trying to deter people from investing in this concept or buying this stuff, his approach probably isn't the best.  Non-electronic people are going to spend thirty seconds and leave just feeling uncertain... at best.

Batteriser has posted enough content that it could be used as more effective ammo against them. 

For example:
1.  Point out that they were claiming +800%, now just +80%.  PCworld, CNN, etc all still have those +800% claims even though their website and CF page no longer does.
2.  Take the Apple keyboard and repeat their results.  Sure the meter would go up to 100% with a SMPS, but you can show that you'll only get maybe 1% more life... not +80%.
3.  Illustrate that such a device is only useful when product design is poor.  Buy a Garman GPS and repeat the latest test with an ultra efficient SMPS. If it does work as they describe, you could show how it is NOT well designed.  Then you could show the other twenty products on their website DON'T give similar results.  i.e. Xbox controller, RC cars, TV remote, Thomas the train toy, Sony BlueTooth speaker, flashlight, monkey, etc.
4.  They installed the Batteriser's on fresh batteries with the Garman GPS test.  How about doing the same thing with low current devices to show that, due to the quiescent current of a SMPS, the battery's last less time depending on how much current is being drawn.

I think those real-world examples would better illustrate the point.  Especially item #3, in which the tear-down would be more applicable to your core audience.  Title it "How not to design a battery powered product".

tldr?
This thing only appears useful when a product draws a very high current pulse at very low duty cycles with a poorly designed low battery level notification.  So basically why not just hook a SMPS up to the other 99% of modern devices to show typical experiences?

[Godzil]

I'm not sure that the sort of video we should expect from Dave.
He is here to explain things to help people that want to learn something learn it, teardown stuff and use science, not marketing videos.

Dave is not here too only for debunking Bateroo claims, he also have to work on the normal channel videos, like the mailbag, teardown etc.. things that takes a lots of time (plus he may work on some of his project..)

The only things I see he could do is a timelapse of two time the same product one with normal battery, the other with a batteriser, but wait these things are not available yet.

And about using another voltage booster, Batteroo and all other people may say "yes that's nice but that's not a batteriser so it maybe not true".

[AmmoJammo]

It's all gone weird now!
My 136 dislikes from Vietnam has decreased to 103 now... and the USA has apparently disliked the video 208 times....

Yep, mine too. The Veitnam ones are now showing negative numbers.

what about the Venezuela/Czech/Latvia ones? Those were also part of the bot/PR agency network. Were those also cancelled?
-1 usually means someone clicked thumbs whatever, and later clicked it again cancelling his action.

Not cancelled... changed.... Vietnam is now 61 dislikes, USA is still 208, while the video itself still shows 400+ dislikes.

The graph itself shows 300 dislikes on the 31st, but negative 42 on the 1st...

I think there's more dislikes still being added to it, while the fake dislikes are being removed/disappearing.

[apis]

Just when you thought they can't go any lower, they pay poor people to dislike youtube videos critical of the batteriser.

They are so sad and pathetic.

[TheNewLab]

Hopefully Google will "get it" and start clearing out the dislikes. As Batterizer continues reducing their claims, It would be really fun if we could get mjlorton and Mike's electric stuff plus any other regular You Tubers to chime in..Then it would be no longer Batterizer busted, rather Batterizer hammered into the ground. Someone should contact the US patent office and let them know the patent is not really a original. since anyone can make the circuit.

"If Dave's trying to deter people from investing in this concept or buying this stuff, his approach probably isn't the best.  Non-electronic people are going to spend thirty seconds and leave just feeling uncertain... at best."

Batteriser has posted enough content that it could be used as more effective ammo against them.

I don't think I cut and pasted  that correctly...  so here: apus  « Reply #532 on: Today at 07:29:00 AM » commented above.

There may be a limited number of EEBlog fans, However, there is an old concept in sales. (before the internet) that each person knows at least 250 other people so be careful how you treat that 1st person.

Also, someone mentioned way back somewhere that they had ordered a couple of the Batterizers just to demonstrate what Dave has done on his own YouTube channel...Last I looked Batterizer is still raising funds and all those different YouTube videos are very likely the same single prototype.  So don't count on ever getting one. Perhaps all us forums members can kick in to help recover his loss.  I estimate at about 21,998 members and guessing his loss will about $10 or $20 (the product plus shipping and all)
If we each contribute about 1 -100th of a penny he can recover his loss.  I don't to dis him..I really hope he get some and does his video.I am just saying that Dave and all of us can make a difference and save all the non electronics fans from losing their shirt..A  $2.50 each some non-electronics enthusiast could easily buy 10 or 20 or more of them.

This all just makes me laugh. And face it. This may the best laugh all summer!
Cheers.

[Poe]

I'm not sure that the sort of video we should expect from Dave.
He is here to explain things to help people that want to learn something learn it, teardown stuff and use science, not marketing videos.

He's not doing much of that in these videos.  Mostly just repeating himself and ranting in a dramatic way.  Stuff that turns away viewers who didn't already know this stuff.  It mostly just feels like view/subscriber bait.

Dave is not here too only for debunking Bateroo claims, he also have to work on the normal channel videos, like the mailbag, teardown etc.. things that takes a lots of time (plus he may work on some of his project..)

Dave does whatever Dave wants to do. 

The only things I see he could do is a timelapse of two time the same product one with normal battery, the other with a batteriser, but wait these things are not available yet.

That's all he could do?
How about pointing out "+800%" changed to "+80%"?  Couldn't Dave easily replicate the GPS test on the Garmin with a generic SMPS to simply show that, although he gets the same 5x battery life increase, it's just because of poor design?  I think replicating the Apple keyboard test with a generic SMPS to show it only increases capacity by a small percentage is pretty easy and perfectly illustrates that the battery gauge simply measures voltage. 

Actually all of those things would probably take less effort than what he's done and have a larger impact on people who didn't know this stuff already.  .........Although something is telling me those aren't really his goals here.

[EEVblog]

Probably you are right and it is all mechanical. When the voltage drops, it gets slower, so no electronics like a 1 bit microcontroller controlling some solenoids.

Correct. Almost certainly all mechanical.

[EEVblog]

So who's the audience on these Batteriser videos?  99.99% of Dave's audience already understands what he's talking about. 
If Dave's trying to deter people from investing in this concept or buying this stuff, his approach probably isn't the best.  Non-electronic people are going to spend thirty seconds and leave just feeling uncertain... at best.

Of course.
My videos are not intended to deter people from investing, they are not designed for the average public. They are cater to my technical fan base, my subscribers, many of whom asked to explain the Batteriser.

This thing only appears useful when a product draws a very high current pulse at very low duty cycles with a poorly designed low battery level notification.

There is zero evidence that it works on really high current pulse products

[Poe]

I'll take your word on people requesting the first video.

There is zero evidence that it works on really high current pulse products

There's zero evidence this thing works at all.  My statement was based on their most recent video where the 'smart one' attempts to explain how it gets 800% 80% more life. 

He claims MOST devices pull a massive surge of current.  This massive current surge causes the battery voltage to drop from ~1.3V down to ~1.0V which cause the device to think the battery is dead....

Even if we assume that to be true.... this thing would only be useful for devices that pull massive spikes of current for low duty cycles and have very poorly designed low battery warnings, right?

[EEVblog]

He claims MOST devices pull a massive surge of current.  This massive current surge causes the battery voltage to drop from ~1.3V down to ~1.0V which cause the device to think the battery is dead....
Even if we assume that to be true....

Don't have to assume, you can do the math:
http://ww2.duracell.com/media/en-US/pdf/gtcl/Product_Data_Sheet/NA_DATASHEETS/MN1500_US_CT.pdf
A Duracell AA has approx 100mOhms ESR at 1.3V under load.
To get a 300mV drop to 1V you'd need a current spike of 3A over what it already takes, and long enough for whatever battery dropout circuit to latch on (most don't latch)
So plausible, but in practice, any product that is drawing 3A current spikes from a AA battery will be designed with that in mind. Or, like cameras for example, specifies lower ESR rechargeables.

Again,a complete edge-case hand waving scenario.

[Fungus]

There is zero evidence that it works on really high current pulse products

There's zero evidence this thing works at all. 

People have seen it working on Apple keyboards.

[Zucca]

I would like to put two mirrors prototype device on the side of a PV cell and sell it on Kickstarter...
Would I get easily 10K$?

That´s a strange way to make money.

[amyk]

There is zero evidence that it works on really high current pulse products

There's zero evidence this thing works at all. 

People have seen it working on Apple keyboards.

"working" as in fooling the battery level indicator, which is all that a boost converter set at 1.5V would do.

[5ky]

There is zero evidence that it works on really high current pulse products

There's zero evidence this thing works at all. 

People have seen it working on Apple keyboards.

"working" as in fooling the battery level indicator, which is all that a boost converter set at 1.5V would do.

Can you picture the lawsuits that may arise from that side-affect?  A wedding photographer records entire wedding ceremony.  He uses batterisers for (supposed) better battery life.  Due to batteriser boosting voltage, the camera never displays low battery alert.  Camera dies, file corrupts and never gets saved off.  Photographer gets sued.

[tree]

There is zero evidence that it works on really high current pulse products

There's zero evidence this thing works at all. 

People have seen it working on Apple keyboards.

"working" as in fooling the battery level indicator, which is all that a boost converter set at 1.5V would do.

Can you picture the lawsuits that may arise from that side-affect?  A wedding photographer records entire wedding ceremony.  He uses batterisers for (supposed) better battery life.  Due to batteriser boosting voltage, the camera never displays low battery alert.  Camera dies, file corrupts and never gets saved off.  Photographer gets sued.

Lawyer's salary boosted by 800%