Author Topic: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown  (Read 22508 times)

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Offline hamdi.tn

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2015, 09:40:47 am »
They will freakout with this video. unsoldred pins and that bit a solder flapping around on the chip pins ... that's terrible.
28:00 to 28:30 was really fun to watch  :-DD yap everyday is not my day  :-DD

 

Offline bktemp

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2015, 10:37:11 am »
I am no expert for CAT ratings, but the isolations looks inadequate to me. The optocouplers seem to be IL206A made by Infineon. They are standard optocoupler rated for only 2.5kV isolation test voltage. Not the fancy ones with extra high isolation voltage ratings used in other test equipment.
The metal cans around the isolation transforms are connected to the isolated gnd. The gap around the other soldering tab located in the system gnd is rather small. The micro coax cable can easily come off the connector (for example when the unit is beeing dropped) and touch the metal can. If this happens exposed metal parts (like the USB connector) are connected to the input!
I doubt this unit would pass all the safety standards tests.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2015, 10:46:44 am »
I am no expert for CAT ratings, but the isolations looks inadequate to me. The optocouplers seem to be IL206A made by Infineon. They are standard optocoupler rated for only 2.5kV isolation test voltage. Not the fancy ones with extra high isolation voltage ratings used in other test equipment.

Send it to joeqsmith on the TE forum. Let him zap it!   :popcorn:

 :-DD
 

Offline Rasz

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2015, 10:54:09 am »
They will freakout with this video. unsoldred pins and that bit a solder flapping around on the chip pins ... that's terrible.

dont forget broken transformer, its rather obvious $4K price doesnt include QA

I remember micsig post on the forum, looks like to this day they havent hired a single western engineer (translations, proofreading etc).
I guess it is a big government project to establish a strong chinese corporate presence in another sector of the market, like Xiaomi, and they are heavily subsidized. Next step is usually tariffs to kill competition on the domestic market.

8051 is very Shenzhen, at least they didnt put STC(chinese garbage bin special) in there.
Edit: forgot scratched markings, this is pretty FAIL for someone aspiring to play with big boys.

/not impressed
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 12:04:38 pm by Rasz »
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Offline Lukas

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2015, 11:07:58 am »
QFNs with obscure 3-letter markings are pretty much always from Analog Devices:
H1F: ADA4817 FET opamp
HVB: AD8337 Variable gain amp
 

Offline Towger

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2015, 01:07:09 pm »
They will freakout with this video. unsoldred pins and that bit a solder flapping around on the chip pins ... that's terrible.

Hi Dave, What was the story with the missing pin?  It looked as if it was just a blanked out hole on the bottom board. The frontend board looked like a prototype with all the bodges. In 1080p I would see at least another 2 or 3 you did not point out.
At least they did not goto town with the sandpaper :-)
 

Online electr_peter

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2015, 07:17:00 pm »
They will freakout with this video. unsoldred pins and that bit a solder flapping around on the chip pins ... that's terrible.
Overall quality is not bad, but details are not finished. Connector between inductor, very poor soldering job on all input connectors - these should be built much better for a price.
Quote
28:00 to 28:30 was really fun to watch  :-DD yap everyday is not my day  :-DD
Four in a row! Dave is on a roll! :D
 

Offline Ampere

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2015, 11:47:26 pm »
What's with the connector between the DC-DC converters? I would think that you would get a lot of switching noise which wouldn't be desirable in what is meant to be a precision instrument.
 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2015, 12:05:01 am »
I'm surprised Dave was so lenient on this one. It was laughable all the bits missing, terrible hand soldering, errant pin, chunks of solder shorting stuff out. Total bodges. I think in this case it was definitely a case of "don't turn it on... tear it apart!" because without mopping up after the very poor hand assembly it probably would have fried.

I mean he tore the arse out of the UT-71 multimeter which was way better put together than this thing.  :palm:
 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2015, 12:06:31 am »
What's with the connector between the DC-DC converters? I would think that you would get a lot of switching noise which wouldn't be desirable in what is meant to be a precision instrument.
I know. Up 'til then I thought good design let down by the hand assembly...  :-//
 

Offline c4757p

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2015, 12:11:43 am »
QFNs with obscure 3-letter markings are pretty much always from Analog Devices:
H1F: ADA4817 FET opamp
HVB: AD8337 Variable gain amp

That specific style, too. ADI uses a very specific-looking QFN that they like to call "LFCSP" (yeah, sure guys, "chipscale"... it's a bloody QFN ::)) that has a nice bevel to its edges that you don't see from a lot of other manufs. An analog section with a bunch of small 8-16-pin D/QFN-type devices with those beveled packages - usually ADI.
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Offline mux

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2015, 09:07:23 am »
If you really start looking at the details, it really only gets worse. I think Dave had a miss here; this $4k instrument should have been built much, much better. This is unacceptable. This is either a preproduction prototype or a really shitty board/assembly manufacturer messing it up for Micsig.

A couple of details:
- Silkscreen is very hit&miss. You can see on the HD that they'reusing a very coarse silkscreen, comparable to what I'm getting on my $10 china boards
- Soldering is mediocre. For instance at 13:44 you can see big differences; Q9/Q2 are two SOT23s that are correctly soldered with reflow, but Q3 has way too much solder on the pins. Right next to that is a 'D1' which obviously isn't a diode but has been replaced with a 51k resistor in the WRONG package size and bodged into place (see the crappy solder joint).
- In the same image, they're using a shitty tin/nickel rigid contact connector to connect to a carbonized flex that goes to the keypad. This is just guaranteed to fail, especially in a portable (shaky/crappy environments) application. This should have been at least a spring contact type, but ideally just not a carbonized flex.
- In the close-up shots with larger gold plating areas visible (e.g. 14:15) you can see dirt/tarnishing on the gold plating. This is indicative of a dirty PCB while doing the ENIG process. Either that or there's dust on it (it does look like meh quality plating though)
- Thoroughly insufficient reflow time or unclean contacts on Y1 (crystal), see 14:24. The crystal looks dodgy too, almost like it's either been reclaimed or improperly stored.

Just flipping through a minute of close-up footage I can see many grievous mistakes. This doesn't instill confidence. I've seen 30 year old Flukes that look better inside.
 

Offline Rasz

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2015, 10:42:09 am »
I'm surprised Dave was so lenient on this one.

Trying not to burn any bridges on the first contact with company having a decent chance of disrupting hiend? or free scope? :P /joke
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2015, 01:05:58 pm »
I think Dave had a miss here; this $4k instrument should have been built much, much better.

It's $1400.
The $4K one might be similar, or it might not, we dont' know.

Quote
This is unacceptable.

I agree, they need to fix their production issues.

But heck, even Keysight had huge production soldering issues with U1272A, a lot worse than this Micsig.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2015, 01:12:26 pm »
I mean he tore the arse out of the UT-71 multimeter which was way better put together than this thing.  :palm:

IIRC The UT-71 was crap design and crap components with ok soldering. The Micsig is quite good design, quality parts, with some messy soldering.
I think I'd rather take my chances with the later. Production soldering issues aren't that hard to fix, and Micsig is very new. They'll get better.
Uni-T have had a long time to get better and they are still struggling.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2015, 01:17:13 pm »
In 1080p I would see at least another 2 or 3 you did not point out.

Yes, I miss a lot of stuff looking through the camcorder LCD screen. And generally pay little attention while editing (you get that way after a 1000 videos  ;D )
 

Offline Rasz

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2015, 03:40:30 pm »
Micsig is very new

Quote
Shenzhen Micsig Instruments Co., Ltd. is ... Established Year 2004
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Online TheSteve

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2015, 03:50:40 pm »
The review seemed a little generous to me - you're getting soft Dave!

edit:
Dare I say it almost felt like a very gentle paid advertisement for Micsig.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 04:39:34 pm by TheSteve »
VE7FM
 

Offline mux

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2015, 05:10:12 pm »
I mean he tore the arse out of the UT-71 multimeter which was way better put together than this thing.  :palm:

IIRC The UT-71 was crap design and crap components with ok soldering. The Micsig is quite good design, quality parts, with some messy soldering.
I think I'd rather take my chances with the later. Production soldering issues aren't that hard to fix, and Micsig is very new. They'll get better.
Uni-T have had a long time to get better and they are still struggling.

*some* quality parts, some bargain bin parts. Succeed brand dc/dcs? Noname 8051s? Crappy BNCs? Even the FPGA was arguably not really that impressive - it's 'only' a cyclone III, the cheapest version bar one. Although I have to say the update rate is impressive so I wouldn't knock too much on that.

Quite good design is also something I'd contest on some details, like the oft-mentioned strange internal coax u.FL connector location between dc/dcs.

However if it truly is $1400 and not $4k, this honestly isn't much of an issue. This is about bang on the kind of components I'd expect in a midrange product.

By the way, I do concur that Agilent (and earlier Philips/Fluke) have had plenty of mfg issues with their scopemeters. I used to own a Fluke 99 and it had some serious display issues stemming from either bad solder joints or bad contact alignment. This was a very well-known issue and down to manufacturing. Not at all what you'd expect from what used to be an astronomically priced unit. Worst thing was: you didn't get support from Fluke when the screen went bad after a couple of years, so you would either have to get it repaired at high cost or cut your losses and sell it. This was the reason you could buy $100 Fluke 99Bs in the early 2000s.
 

Offline Porto

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2015, 09:38:22 pm »
I had a BLOODY good laugh, thanks Dave!  :-+
 

Offline Phaedrus

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2015, 09:51:31 pm »
That sticker in the battery compartment says ???? (si hui bu bao) and basically means "no warranty if torn" (or something like that)

Edit: Heh, guess the forum doesn't like Chinese characters :p
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 09:54:05 pm by Phaedrus »
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Offline Macbeth

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2015, 10:03:54 pm »
That sticker in the battery compartment says ???? (si hui bu bao) and basically means "no warranty if torn" (or something like that)

Edit: Heh, guess the forum doesn't like Chinese characters :p
Worse, it doesn't even allow greek characters which seems absurd to me for an Electronics forum  :--
 

Offline c4757p

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2015, 10:12:09 pm »
Edit: Heh, guess the forum doesn't like Chinese characters :p

don't need none o' that yuny-code stuff to speak proper strine
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Offline Stonent

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2015, 02:12:37 am »
The review seemed a little generous to me - you're getting soft Dave!

edit:
Dare I say it almost felt like a very gentle paid advertisement for Micsig.

I kept wondering when he was going to say "Just kidding! This thing is crap!"
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2015, 02:22:03 am »
The review seemed a little generous to me - you're getting soft Dave!

edit:
Dare I say it almost felt like a very gentle paid advertisement for Micsig.

I kept wondering when he was going to say "Just kidding! This thing is crap!"

It's quite a nice unit apart from the manufacturing issues they really need to fix.
As an actual handheld scope, I like it.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2015, 02:23:44 am »
Micsig is very new
Quote
Shenzhen Micsig Instruments Co., Ltd. is ... Established Year 2004

As I understand it they have only gotten into test equipment design in the last few years.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2015, 02:27:35 am »
The review seemed a little generous to me - you're getting soft Dave!
Quote

Perhaps. Maybe I was in a good mood that day.

Quote
Dare I say it almost felt like a very gentle paid advertisement for Micsig.

Yeah, sure, one were I show solder dags and loose pins and dodgy connector soldering so the whole world can see. Manufactures pay great money for that kind of exposure!
 

Offline Stonent

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2015, 02:50:28 am »
I was excited at first, thinking this was the much assumed vaporware Micsig tablet in the video.  That's what I really hope to see at some point.

Dave, do you see Micsig being the next Rigol?
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2015, 03:44:45 am »
Dave, do you see Micsig being the next Rigol?

They are starting off with the opposite attitude to what Rigol did, aiming for high end specs and price bracket.
That's not good or bad, it's just different. I think Micsig's approach is probably riskier in terms of getting market traction and growing the company.
Way too early to tell if Micsig will be able to get decent traction in the market though.
It took Rigol more than decade, and many product revisions to get where they are now.
 

Offline Orange

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2015, 11:59:24 am »
Hey,

I proves my point that you should not take chineese stuff apart for a teardown video. Just use it until it breaks down, then take it apart  :)
 :-DD
 

Offline rf-design

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2015, 11:25:06 pm »
What is possible under the soldered shield?

The isolation circuit.

I found only a single chinese patent for an isolation circuit. The patent WO2008061444A1 describe the single chinese isolation circuit useful for the channel isolation. The issued year is 2006. And I think they want to become one of the serious players of isolated scopes.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 11:27:52 pm by rf-design »
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2015, 11:36:43 pm »
I found only a single chinese patent for an isolation circuit. The patent WO2008061444A1 describe the single chinese isolation circuit useful for the channel isolation. The issued year is 2006. And I think they want to become one of the serious players of isolated scopes.

Nice find!
 

Offline Smokey

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2015, 12:10:28 am »
That 0.1in header with the pin in it is probably just a cheap way to make a polarity key so you can't install the mate backwards.  They probably stuck that pin in there on purpose, and just used a header with one pin missing in that spot.  That used to be more common when more things had 0.1in ribbon cables running all over the place.
 

Offline crispy_tofu

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2015, 10:21:19 am »
That 0.1in header with the pin in it is probably just a cheap way to make a polarity key so you can't install the mate backwards.  They probably stuck that pin in there on purpose, and just used a header with one pin missing in that spot.  That used to be more common when more things had 0.1in ribbon cables running all over the place.

Yeah, that would explain why the pin had no solder on it at all.  ;)
 

Offline PA0PBZ

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2015, 11:14:21 am »
They probably stuck that pin in there on purpose, and just used a header with one pin missing in that spot.

I bet I know why there was a pin missing on one side and one extra on the other side.
(hint: a side cutter)
Keyboard error: Press F1 to continue.
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2015, 12:03:25 pm »
The 8051 used throughout is nice, they probably have a lot of code for it which at least is stable and well documented. The one by the keyboard is most likely doing all the power management as well, along with battery charging and likely some of the control of the power to the channels so you can switch off unused parts. Probably uses the serial ports to communicate with the main CPU and give status messages and key data. Using on the isolated side is likely to use the same compiler and codebase, just to keep cost down and have less work for the developers. Known code, known responses and less to go wrong with it. Plus is it will be cheap, and have a lot of built in peripherals without issue.
 

Offline hamdi.tn

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2015, 07:30:04 pm »
What is possible under the soldered shield?

The isolation circuit.

I found only a single chinese patent for an isolation circuit. The patent WO2008061444A1 describe the single chinese isolation circuit useful for the channel isolation. The issued year is 2006. And I think they want to become one of the serious players of isolated scopes.

 :-+
 

Offline AF6LJ

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2015, 07:45:16 pm »
What is possible under the soldered shield?

The isolation circuit.

I found only a single chinese patent for an isolation circuit. The patent WO2008061444A1 describe the single chinese isolation circuit useful for the channel isolation. The issued year is 2006. And I think they want to become one of the serious players of isolated scopes.

 :-+

Cool, I was wondering how they were doing that and I had it partially figured out.
I wonder what frequency the transformer kicks in, and how they manage to accomplish the crossover from opto idolator to transformer as frequency increases, most likely in firmware I guess.

Coolness.
 :-+ :-+
Sue AF6LJ
 

Offline hamdi.tn

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2015, 08:49:44 pm »
while it's nice circuit , will be fun to retro engineer it, i think TI have some isolated OP-Amp with large bandwidth (have to double check that ) , they are not cheap though, but i guess could do the job nicely.
 

Offline TerminalJack505

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #40 on: October 24, 2015, 09:20:37 pm »
Are the Chinese cloning Altera parts now?   :o
 

Offline geartechbrandon

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Re: EEVblog #810 - Micsig MS310 Handheld Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #41 on: October 31, 2015, 09:08:09 am »
Will there be any more info about the 3D printer controller board using the TI TMS320 chip? Really curious about what is going on with that.
 


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