Author Topic: EEVblog #840 - Yamaha M3000 Mixing Console Teardown  (Read 20000 times)

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Offline SteigsdB

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Re: EEVblog #840 - Yamaha M3000 Mixing Console Teardown
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2016, 03:03:42 PM »
I think that learning curve has diminished in the past few years.

Just like their analog brethren, the majority of the digital desks on the market still handle signal flow in a somewhat traditional way.  It's gotten to the point that if you can navigate a digital console from manufacturer A, you'll likely be able to find your way around manufacturer B's product with a small amount of digging.  Functions are largely the same but some of the nomenclature varies. 

That being said, you still probably wouldn't want to walk up on one you're not familiar with 5 minutes before you need to use it.
 

Offline crispy_tofu

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Re: EEVblog #840 - Yamaha M3000 Mixing Console Teardown
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2016, 03:09:47 PM »
The Midas XL4 is one such desk still enjoying its share of road time.  This 270+kg behemoth is pretty much considered the Gold Standard of analog live consoles, and it's substantially easier to disassemble!
US$26000 used?!  :scared:
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: EEVblog #840 - Yamaha M3000 Mixing Console Teardown
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2016, 03:18:04 PM »
Brings back memories of my first career in sound reinforcement. I used the fancier PM3000 and PM4000's for big shows but this model was similar in size. No problem when you have fork lifts and 100 huge guys to move it around.

These things were VERY basic in that they mix and offer parametric equalization. All effects and dynamics control have to loop through to many racks of processing. It kept the FOH engineers very very busy compared to today's integrated digital systems that can be automated. Any minute problem with anything would create noise and buzzing that was a PITA to track down.

Good memories and bad memories. I don't miss analog for a second.
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Offline free_electron

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Re: EEVblog #840 - Yamaha M3000 Mixing Console Teardown
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2016, 03:18:11 PM »
what's to prevent someone from simply hooking up all the pots to 10 bit adc's , collect their state over usb and then stream in audio using a MOTU.
has been done. feels like an analog machine but fits in a 1 u 19 inch unit...

mixing happens in digital domain.

http://www.motu.com/products/avb/1248
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: EEVblog #840 - Yamaha M3000 Mixing Console Teardown
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2016, 03:24:09 PM »
10bits?
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Offline DrGeoff

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Re: EEVblog #840 - Yamaha M3000 Mixing Console Teardown
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2016, 03:36:18 PM »
If you like real audio desk porn, go look for AMS /Neve / Calrec / Euphonix and SSL...
Since the 70s these guys have been making studio consoles that sell for upwards of A$200K

Yep, and the channels strips are individually replaceable. Much more serviceable in a short space of time.


Was it really supposed to do that?
 

Offline coppice

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Re: EEVblog #840 - Yamaha M3000 Mixing Console Teardown
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2016, 03:42:19 PM »
If you like real audio desk porn, go look for AMS /Neve / Calrec / Euphonix and SSL...
Since the 70s these guys have been making studio consoles that sell for upwards of A$200K

Yep, and the channels strips are individually replaceable. Much more serviceable in a short space of time.
That's great for studio desks, but its hard to get the robustness you need for mobile use with all those separate little front panel pieces.
 

Offline DrGeoff

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Re: EEVblog #840 - Yamaha M3000 Mixing Console Teardown
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2016, 03:44:25 PM »
Brings back memories of my first career in sound reinforcement. I used the fancier PM3000 and PM4000's for big shows but this model was similar in size. No problem when you have fork lifts and 100 huge guys to move it around.

These things were VERY basic in that they mix and offer parametric equalization. All effects and dynamics control have to loop through to many racks of processing. It kept the FOH engineers very very busy compared to today's integrated digital systems that can be automated. Any minute problem with anything would create noise and buzzing that was a PITA to track down.

Good memories and bad memories. I don't miss analog for a second.

Yeah, likewise. Dodgy channel strips, re-patching the back panel because one strip decided to pick up the local radio station etc etc.
Then again, easier to re-patch then to deal with a crash and re-boot in the middle of a gig :)

Was it really supposed to do that?
 

Offline SteigsdB

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Re: EEVblog #840 - Yamaha M3000 Mixing Console Teardown
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2016, 05:44:06 PM »
The Midas XL4 is one such desk still enjoying its share of road time.  This 270+kg behemoth is pretty much considered the Gold Standard of analog live consoles, and it's substantially easier to disassemble!
US$26000 used?!  :scared:

They sold new for just over US$100k.

Pocket change though compared to this Calrec Apollo that will run you, as configured, just shy of US$1M.



BTW, Dave I have to say as I watch your videos and a lot of the tech you describe goes right over my head, it was fun to watch you wander around that Yamaha a bit lost on the items I use everyday. Great video!

 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #840 - Yamaha M3000 Mixing Console Teardown
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2016, 06:23:51 PM »
Pocket change though compared to this Calrec Apollo that will run you, as configured, just shy of US$1M.

Obsolete tech. Now it's all like this:


 

Offline SteigsdB

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Re: EEVblog #840 - Yamaha M3000 Mixing Console Teardown
« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2016, 06:32:28 PM »
The raven is a cool piece of gear, indeed.

You'd never mix the superbowl on one though.  :-+
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #840 - Yamaha M3000 Mixing Console Teardown
« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2016, 06:50:36 PM »
The raven is a cool piece of gear, indeed.

You'd never mix the superbowl on one though.  :-+

I only posted that one because the picture was pretty and it shows the way things are going. I'm sure there's one out there that you can mix the Superbowl on.

(But will it cost less than $1 million?  And will it be roadie-proof? I'm guessing that thing isn't meant to be taken on the road... :popcorn:)
« Last Edit: January 14, 2016, 06:57:52 PM by Fungus »
 

Offline SteigsdB

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Re: EEVblog #840 - Yamaha M3000 Mixing Console Teardown
« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2016, 08:03:25 PM »
I'm guessing that thing isn't meant to be taken on the road... :popcorn:)

Actually, that's exactly what it's setup for. It's in here:



This truck, and the other one that accompanies and completes it, were built for NBC's Nascar coverage by Game Creek video.  I was with a crew that used it for college football afterwards.  The truck(s) that end up at the superbowl will be very similar designs.

It'd be awesome to see Dave do a teardown on one of the Kalypso switchers..  >:D

 

Offline ciccio

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Re: EEVblog #840 - Yamaha M3000 Mixing Console Teardown
« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2016, 08:05:12 PM »

Yep, and the channels strips are individually replaceable. Much more serviceable in a short space of time.
That's great for studio desks, but its hard to get the robustness you need for mobile use with all those separate little front panel pieces.

This is not true: a module holding 8 channel strips is less resistant to flex than 8 single strip modules (the panels are usually U-shaped).
The reason for multiple channel modules is economical (the cost is lower) and, sometimes more important, that you can pack more channels in the same space (there is no wasted space from the sides of the single, u-shaped panels) : if the modules are built using 1 mm thick sheet metal, you lose 2 mm (plus the necessary tolerance, plus paint thickness), let's say 3 mm each channel. Multiply this for a 64 modules frame and you lose the space for  3-4 modules. This can be important, especially when the console size is fixed by other reasons, as for rack mountable small units.

It is usually easier to fix a console built with single modules.

Best regards
« Last Edit: January 14, 2016, 08:07:06 PM by ciccio »
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Offline Chasm

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Re: EEVblog #840 - Yamaha M3000 Mixing Console Teardown
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2016, 08:28:44 PM »

It'd be awesome to see Dave do a teardown on one of the Kalypso switchers..  >:D




There are a few videos where the Kayenne is down to module level, there should be some for the Kalypso too.


The control surfaces are heaps of reed switches for the most part. OLED displays and RBG leds too.


Edit: Don't ever use the Toggle View button, it fsks up your post...
« Last Edit: January 14, 2016, 08:31:17 PM by Chasm »
 

Offline adh

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Re: EEVblog #840 - Yamaha M3000 Mixing Console Teardown
« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2016, 08:29:39 PM »
Pocket change though compared to this Calrec Apollo that will run you, as configured, just shy of US$1M.

Obsolete tech. Now it's all like this:



When we though about designing modular low-cost-ish control surface (primarily for DMX control, but digital mixing was also considered) e thought that either multitouch monitor or just capacitive touch sensors and LEDs were the way to go. But apparently, for usability it's important to have physical faders and knobs for tactile feedback and ability to discern position of control by touch.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #840 - Yamaha M3000 Mixing Console Teardown
« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2016, 08:57:00 PM »
I'm guessing that thing isn't meant to be taken on the road... :popcorn:)

Actually, that's exactly what it's setup for. It's in here:

This truck, and the other one that accompanies and completes it, were built for NBC's Nascar coverage by Game Creek video.  I was with a crew that used it for college football afterwards.  The truck(s) that end up at the superbowl will be very similar designs.

I guess there's "on the road" and "on the road!".
 

Online orion242

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Re: EEVblog #840 - Yamaha M3000 Mixing Console Teardown
« Reply #42 on: January 15, 2016, 12:47:33 PM »
I haven't been able to find photos of the pots used in this thing.

Ditto.

I was hoping to see what the hell they use for pots in the thing.  A quick tear down (datasheet if lucky) look of the actual look of the slider and pots used should be interesting.  Can't blame Dave for not wanting to pull 300 knobs, 200 screws, etc to free a board to look at the top side.  Hacking the bastard open with a metal saw and simply cutting one out via all means necessary would have been my access method.  Right angle grinder with carbide blade would liberate one in < 5min....so much for finding a taker after that though

Must say the sliders on the outside look pretty boring, but I have to assume these are not your $0.25 cheapies on ebay.  Being shipped around and expected to last, they must be the brick dunny of pots. 
« Last Edit: January 15, 2016, 12:54:19 PM by orion242 »
 

Offline westfw

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Re: EEVblog #840 - Yamaha M3000 Mixing Console Teardown
« Reply #43 on: January 15, 2016, 12:57:00 PM »
Quote
A quick tear down look of the actual look of the slider and pots used should be interesting.
Ditto; I was hoping to see the pots/switches closer up, and how they were connected to the PCBs.  (I didn't see pot-like connections to the PCBs in the video; was there another layer, or some sort of wiring harness?)
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: EEVblog #840 - Yamaha M3000 Mixing Console Teardown
« Reply #44 on: January 15, 2016, 01:05:42 PM »
Penny & Giles supplied many of the linear pots for high-end audio. Wonder who made these. The M3000 is the low-end of the high-end of the day.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #840 - Yamaha M3000 Mixing Console Teardown
« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2016, 10:37:16 PM »
When we though about designing modular low-cost-ish control surface (primarily for DMX control, but digital mixing was also considered) e thought that either multitouch monitor or just capacitive touch sensors and LEDs were the way to go. But apparently, for usability it's important to have physical faders and knobs for tactile feedback and ability to discern position of control by touch.
It might be good to have half a dozen physical knobs as well (user assignable).

They'd have to be motorized of course. Motorized sliders are cool. Ghostly.

 

Offline Salas

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Re: EEVblog #840 - Yamaha M3000 Mixing Console Teardown
« Reply #46 on: January 16, 2016, 06:34:13 AM »
Penny & Giles supplied many of the linear pots for high-end audio. Wonder who made these. The M3000 is the low-end of the high-end of the day.

Enough PM5000s still kicking around and appreciated nonetheless. One such unit featured in this vid.

« Last Edit: January 16, 2016, 06:36:32 AM by Salas »
 

Offline Bassman59

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Re: EEVblog #840 - Yamaha M3000 Mixing Console Teardown
« Reply #47 on: January 16, 2016, 07:34:50 AM »
Despite Dave's lack of knowledge, most of what he said was basically correct - one mistake was that the faders are not high quality - they looked cheap and cheerful carbon track ones, possibly made by Alps. However, they may just control a DC voltage for the VCA rather than passing audio (can't be bothered to read the manual to check).

Yes, the M3000 was a VCA desk so the channel (and group) faders did not pass audio, just the control voltage.
 

Offline bob808

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Re: EEVblog #840 - Yamaha M3000 Mixing Console Teardown
« Reply #48 on: January 16, 2016, 09:48:47 AM »
I'd love me two of those vu-meters  :bullshit:
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #840 - Yamaha M3000 Mixing Console Teardown
« Reply #49 on: January 16, 2016, 10:25:55 AM »
 


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