Author Topic: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown  (Read 43343 times)

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Offline PA4TIM

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #50 on: January 23, 2016, 09:15:33 am »
I bought a HMO-3522 in 2011. I use it almost every day. The gold plated bnc's are still as new and a do a lot off probe changing. (diff probes, current probes, component tester, 10x, 100x, 1000x probes etc) I repaired one probe a few weeks ago.
Not bad considering that the Rigol probes I had before lasted less then a year and I could not repair. I kicked the Rigol scope out after 1,5 year of frustration. It was the most expensive piece of shit I ever bought (if I look at the price vs time and price vs performance and price vs quality)

When I had the Rigol (the 100 MHz version) I used my analog scope for 90% of the time, now I use the Hameg 90% of the time. The performance is great, the user interface too (and that is very rare in my case) 
It is still spot on, the fan is as silent as it was new.

About the digital specs an WFU/s things on paper,  I have no clue and I do not care. I use it intensive and often for complex and precision measurements, I trust it, it never let me down and I never noticed it doing  crap measurements like the Rigol did.
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Offline lem_ix

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #51 on: January 23, 2016, 09:54:03 am »
Hameg/R&S gear is very polished + updates long after release date. My HMO1524 is a treat to use and this seems very similar. Wish the CAN/LIN decode was a bit cheaper tho :(
 

Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #52 on: January 23, 2016, 10:32:34 am »
I prefer Keysight scopes. Hameg / Rohde & Schwarz is good only if you need a very compact scope with a silent fan.
EDIT: I mean the HMO series.
The R&S RTM, RTO and RTE series are quite different machines.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 02:06:46 am by Hydrawerk »
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Offline zapta

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #53 on: January 23, 2016, 10:36:10 am »
Hameg/R&S gear is very polished + updates long after release date. My HMO1524 is a treat to use and this seems very similar. Wish the CAN/LIN decode was a bit cheaper tho :(

The CAN/LIN/UART/SPI/I2C decoders come free with this older model $1K oscilloscope.

http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/HMO-Max/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?v=0

I placed an order this morning for one. This video was very helpful.
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Offline lem_ix

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #54 on: January 23, 2016, 10:40:12 am »
That's a great deal, you'll enjoy using it for sure ;)
 

Offline Gunb

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #55 on: January 23, 2016, 09:57:07 pm »
Hameg/R&S gear is very polished + updates long after release date. My HMO1524 is a treat to use and this seems very similar. Wish the CAN/LIN decode was a bit cheaper tho :(

?

Compare it to Agilent / Keysight carefully and it will show HOW MUCH you get from Hameg/R&S in comparison to Agilent/Keysight.
THEN you know what's cheap and WHAT's expensive.

I'm using Agilent / Keysight, Tek, Rigol and Hameg/R&S for years now, and without preferring any of these brands I can say that Hameg/R&S is the winner concerning FFT/bus decoding especially
in contrast to Agilent/Keysight.

I've used the InfiniiVision MSOX4054 (20k €!!) for many months now using it for micros including the expensive bus decoding options. Finally I've replaced it with an Hameg/R&S 3054 since it has many options more than the crap of Agilent/Keysight.

The HMO 1002 / 1202 R&S series has much better bus decoding functionality than Keysights and Rigols, and the FFT is a dream for any communication electronics engineer.

So, if the review would be better it wouldn't always deal with open the housing and have a look on a stupid PCB but would reveal more the details I've mentioned above.

Concludingly, if using the scope mainly for micros the Hameg/R&S are offering plenty of features where the Rigols fail. For most purposes you don't need millions of wfm/s. It's just a feature easy to read from
the datasheets, and unfortunately for many users the only criteria.

One might have the most beautiful sports car, but not very helpful for outdoor purposes.

Sorry for being a bit inpolite, but it's simply the truth.


Rgds
Gunb


BTW: Rigol's FFT is crap.

« Last Edit: January 23, 2016, 10:06:14 pm by Gunb »
 

Offline Gunb

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2016, 09:58:57 pm »
I prefer Keysight scopes. Hameg / Rohde & Schwarz is good only if you need a very compact scope with a silent fan.

Bullsh**t, just that simple.

P.S.: Please don't post videos, we know them all.


 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #57 on: January 23, 2016, 10:54:09 pm »
I prefer Keysight scopes. Hameg / Rohde & Schwarz is good only if you need a very compact scope with a silent fan.


You can prefer what ever scope just as also who ever even if do not have any knowledge or experience about anything.

Comment about R&S is total bullshit and tell only that you are talking things what are outside of your knowledge. Do you even know what is Rohde & Schwarz. Have you never seen any kind of R&S equipments. (If I win enough money from lottery I know what I buy and name plate is on nearly all equipment "true" R&S without any doupt. Do not even think.)

(I do not talk about these R&S adopted "semi R&S" scopes what is here in this teardown what are based perhaps to quite old design by Hameg or whoever and then named by R&S what is quite sad but even these have poor things and nice things, and very good building quality, not state of art but good.)
« Last Edit: January 23, 2016, 11:02:07 pm by rf-loop »
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Offline lem_ix

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #58 on: January 23, 2016, 11:08:11 pm »
Hameg/R&S gear is very polished + updates long after release date. My HMO1524 is a treat to use and this seems very similar. Wish the CAN/LIN decode was a bit cheaper tho :(

?

Compare it to Agilent / Keysight carefully and it will show HOW MUCH you get from Hameg/R&S in compariso to Agilent/Keysight.
THEN you know what's cheap and WHAT's expensive.

I'm using Agilent / Keysight, Tek, Rigol and Hameg/R&S for years now, and without preferring any of these brands I can say that Hameg/R&S is the winner especially
in contrast to Agilent/Keysight.

I've used the InfiniiVision MSOX4054 (20k €!!) for many months now using it for micros including the expensive bus decoding options. Finally I've replaced it with an Hameg/R&S 3054 since it has many options more than the crap of Agilent/Keysight.

The HMO 1002 / 1202 R&S series has much better bus decoding functionality than Keysights and Rigols, and the FFT is a dream for any communication electronics engineer which is included in todays scopes.

So, if the review would be better it wouldn't always deal with open the housing and have a look on a stupid PCB but would reveal more the details I've mentioned above.

Sorry for being a bit inpolite, but it's simply the truth.


Rgds
Gunb

Don't see what you're getting worked up about? I didn't compare it to anything and I'm very well aware of equivalent keysight pricing although it's a promo deal for some scopes atm right? Working on a competition robot  with some mates, decided on canbus for inter-board communication. Can't justify the price for that, a bit more money and I could get a rigol ds2072, hack it and voila canbus decode plus another scope... Not gonna do any of that, decode is nice but not crucial in any way. Bottom line, a very personal wish, can you blame me :D ?



 

Offline Gunb

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #59 on: January 23, 2016, 11:53:27 pm »

Don't see what you're getting worked up about? I didn't compare it to anything and I'm very well aware of equivalent keysight pricing although it's a promo deal for some scopes atm right? Working on a competition robot  with some mates, decided on canbus for inter-board communication. Can't justify the price for that, a bit more money and I could get a rigol ds2072, hack it and voila canbus decode plus another scope... Not gonna do any of that, decode is nice but not crucial in any way. Bottom line, a very personal wish, can you blame me :D ?

Well, you've mentioned CAN/LIN. The R&S decode is not as expensive as Agilent/Keysight, and faster with more features than Rigol provides. Got Rigol and Hameg/R&S at home, Agilent/Keysight at work. So not only a theoretical sight of view. Can't understand to pay approx. 600€ for serial decode for the Agilent without the option to display characters in ASCII !!! The HMOs have got all options included, and that's only one example.

Comparing a hacked scope with a non hacked one rather prefers the hacked one.

Decode is more crucial today than ever before. Dealing with embedded every day it's permanently in use in parallel to analog / mixed signal. And then one might need proper implementation of all these features than having a simple scope only. Rigol lacks in a few things concerning this. Neither 140 Mpts memory nor high wfm/s will change these facts.

Besides bus decode the HMOs are proper devices with much better rotary encoders than these of the Rigols. Had to change one after short usage. Even the Agilent 4054X I've mentioned above has got a broken rotary encoder of less quality.

Don't want to make the Rigols bad, commonly good scopes. But there are reasons for the HMOs and to spend a bit more money, too. I'm missing these details in the review.

« Last Edit: January 23, 2016, 11:59:00 pm by Gunb »
 

Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #60 on: January 24, 2016, 02:13:40 am »
Do you even know what is Rohde & Schwarz. Have you never seen any kind of R&S equipments.
Yes.
https://www.scope-of-the-art.com/en/

But this handheld R&S scope is new for me. http://www.2-minutes.com/
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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #61 on: January 24, 2016, 02:33:07 am »
this handheld R&S scope is new for me. http://www.2-minutes.com/

Nice.

If I had $6000 to spare I might get one....

 

Offline Neganur

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #62 on: January 24, 2016, 02:39:05 am »
Don't know about the memory debate. It's a bit too much comparing numbers rather than what is enough for the task it is designed for.
It's an oscilloscope, not a digitizer. I think it'll do it's job well enough.

Imagine it had 1 Gigabyte of the fastest memory you can imagine. What would it be good for and how often would you need that?

(Edit: 640KB ought to be enough, no? :D I'm probably failing to see the need.)
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 02:54:46 am by Neganur »
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #63 on: January 24, 2016, 03:11:15 am »
For the price of the HMO1202 (especially if you want the decoding options) you can certainly do better without needing to resort to Rigol or Siglent!
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #64 on: January 24, 2016, 03:20:08 am »
Don't know about the memory debate. It's a bit too much comparing numbers rather than what is enough for the task it is designed for.
It's an oscilloscope, not a digitizer. I think it'll do it's job well enough.

My previous oscilloscope was a TDS210 with 2500 points/ch and it worked just fine, so the X200 memory size of the R&S HMO1002 should be more than enough for me.

I ordered it after the DS1054Z arrived. No offense but the Rigol felt noisy, non responsive, cramped, and even crude (e.g. some of the fonts it uses). Not something I would enjoy using in the next 10 years, even if it has larger memory and two more channels. This is subjective of course, YMMV.

Comparing numbers is not everything.
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #65 on: January 24, 2016, 04:04:29 am »
Don't know about the memory debate. It's a bit too much comparing numbers rather than what is enough for the task it is designed for.
It's an oscilloscope, not a digitizer. I think it'll do it's job well enough.


One aspect is: For maintaining fast sampling.

Why oscilloscopes need deep acquisition memory by Joel Woodward, Senior Product Manager, Oscilloscopes,  Agilent Technologies.
There he tell also two other reasons.

But this whole question is perhaps so importaant that somewhere is good to ppen thread for: Why oscilloscopes need deep acquisition memory but in some cases 10 sample memory lenght is enough.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 04:10:17 am by rf-loop »
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline hjups

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #66 on: January 24, 2016, 08:12:33 pm »
Does anyone have any insight into the ESD topology of the logic probe pod? I have been racking my brain over it since this teardown was posted. They must be doing something special, since I would imagine it should be able to measure TTL signals and the ADCMP562s are only rated for up to a 3V input.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #67 on: January 24, 2016, 09:15:36 pm »
My previous oscilloscope was a TDS210 with 2500 points/ch and it worked just fine, so the X200 memory size of the R&S HMO1002 should be more than enough for me.

A few megs is enough for most things, especially general purpose scope usage.
In this case other factors can drive the buying decision.
For example, the FFT mode on the R&S is very nice (128Kpoint), was playing with it today, and might do a comparison video with some other scopes for that.

Quote
I ordered it after the DS1054Z arrived. No offense but the Rigol felt noisy, non responsive, cramped, and even crude (e.g. some of the fonts it uses). Not something I would enjoy using in the next 10 years, even if it has larger memory and two more channels. This is subjective of course, YMMV.

Yes, quite noisy. In fact I'm starting to get a bit annoyed by it now. The R&S is much more polished, like the Keysight X series, although you pay a hefty price premium for them.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #68 on: January 24, 2016, 09:20:31 pm »
So, if the review would be better it wouldn't always deal with open the housing and have a look on a stupid PCB but would reveal more the details I've mentioned above.

It's not a review video, it's a teardown video. Usually I don't even turn the scope on in a teardown video, but in this case I had a little play.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #69 on: January 24, 2016, 09:43:16 pm »
I ordered it after the DS1054Z arrived. No offense but the Rigol felt noisy, non responsive, cramped, and even crude (e.g. some of the fonts it uses). Not something I would enjoy using in the next 10 years, even if it has larger memory and two more channels. This is subjective of course, YMMV.
Yes, quite noisy. In fact I'm starting to get a bit annoyed by it now.
Yep, Rigol fan noise is annoying.

How about a video where you set all your fancy thermal imagers and auido measuring gear on a Rigol and see if the fan is really even necessary. If so, what's a good way to silence the thing?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 09:47:13 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #70 on: January 24, 2016, 09:50:59 pm »
How about a video where you set all your fancy thermal imagers and auido measuring gear on a Rigol and see if the fan is really even necessary. If so, what's a good way to silence the thing?

Install a better quality quieter fan.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #71 on: January 24, 2016, 10:10:43 pm »
How about a video where you set all your fancy thermal imagers and auido measuring gear on a Rigol and see if the fan is really even necessary. If so, what's a good way to silence the thing?
Install a better quality quieter fan.

Recommendations? What's the lowest speed it could run at? How much measured difference would it actually make? etc.

You said it annoys you. Don't you want to 'engineer' it?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #72 on: January 24, 2016, 10:33:07 pm »
Recommendations? What's the lowest speed it could run at? How much measured difference would it actually make? etc.
You said it annoys you. Don't you want to 'engineer' it?

I think some other have done it on the forum.
I was thinking that Papst fan in the R&S is damn nice...
 

Offline Groucho2005

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #73 on: January 24, 2016, 10:49:49 pm »
For example, the FFT mode on the R&S is very nice (128Kpoint)
Wow, I didn't realize that they upgraded the FFT length. My HMO722 has "only" 64K points and gets a bit sluggish when using that resolution. I wonder if they use a faster processor to make 128K usable.
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #74 on: January 24, 2016, 11:47:39 pm »

I think some other have done it on the forum.
I was thinking that Papst fan in the R&S is damn nice...
Although Papst fans are really nice, they can also be extremely loud.
But there is one type of Papst fans that I like the best for instruments, it is the Type 612 MI
They are extremely quiet and have a little thermistor to regulate the speed internally.
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