Author Topic: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED  (Read 54529 times)

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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #75 on: February 15, 2016, 04:00:54 am »
It seems like it would be better to place the panels over the roads. Motorists would be provided shade and protection from rain, and the panels would be able to function even during the largest traffic jam. The best part of it is that existing solar panel materials would be usable because they wouldn't need to withstand such heavy loads nor would they need LEDs to show lines in the road.

People would complain they can't see the sky.
 

Online Kleinstein

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #76 on: February 15, 2016, 05:14:33 am »
The simple cost comparison does not work that way: part of the lower energy output is due to lower peak power per area for the solar roadway. So you can't just multiply the two factors. Still I don't see a chance for getting a competitive price. 

Using the roads only makes sense if there is absolutely no alternative other open areas. Using the road is rather expensive and likely short lifetime. A well scratched panel might loose about half the efficiency. Not having the angel for highest energy output could actually be an advantage, as power output is a little less peaked around noon. So the horizontal orientation is not that bad. In Germany they already start using roofs angled to east or west and consider higher payments for them.

There are many alternative places, that are better suited, like roofs and walls of building. A big candidate would be a system that replaces roofing material, not just put on top of a roof. I also think the Korean solution is more realistic if you really need the road area. Especially parking lots are better in the shade in sunny regions. 

However I don't think area will get that scare: There is plenty of dessert areas and land, where agriculture is limited by the amount of rain and not by the amount of sunlight. So in dry regions, using something like half the area for solar might even help to make the residual land more useful for agriculture.

In less sunny regions wind power is likely more cost efficient anyway.
 

Offline bitslice

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #77 on: February 15, 2016, 06:01:51 am »
Dave, is there any chance you could drop the word "bullshit" from your videos on this topic?

Whenever the topic comes up on other forums the gushing plebs post the same solar roadways promotional material, but when an Engineer comes along to post one of your videos to refute it, he then gets banned because swearing isn't allowed on a lot of forums (yep, BS is considered swearing in the UK, sorry).

Like I couldn't even link this thread because again it would contain the same word :/

I know you don't like changing your stuff to suit other people, but until other Engineers step up there isn't a lot of informed videos on the topic and you are someone what of a torch bearer for this issue.

Thanks






 

Offline Razor512

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #78 on: February 15, 2016, 06:34:27 am »
It seems like it would be better to place the panels over the roads. Motorists would be provided shade and protection from rain, and the panels would be able to function even during the largest traffic jam. The best part of it is that existing solar panel materials would be usable because they wouldn't need to withstand such heavy loads nor would they need LEDs to show lines in the road.

People would complain they can't see the sky.

In such a case, they can make dome lik structures which cover the road and have parallel likes of clear class (to see the sky), and solar panels  (with street lights mounted under them (thus lighting at night). the sides can be completely open for airflow.

For parking lots, it can also be useful; no more having a insanely hot car when you park it for a few minutes on a summer day.

 

Offline edy

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #79 on: February 15, 2016, 08:39:24 am »
Dave, is there any chance you could drop the word "bullshit" from your videos on this topic?

I vote for using the word "Bollocks".  :-DD

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Bollocks



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Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #80 on: February 15, 2016, 09:40:57 am »
Thanks to a viewer, French subtitles are now available on the video. Hopefully they are accurate.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #81 on: February 15, 2016, 11:04:36 am »
It seems like it would be better to place the panels over the roads. Motorists would be provided shade and protection from rain, and the panels would be able to function even during the largest traffic jam. The best part of it is that existing solar panel materials would be usable because they wouldn't need to withstand such heavy loads nor would they need LEDs to show lines in the road.
This makes a lot of sense but the problem is that it will be harder to move/extend the road later on and many people are afraid to drive in a tunnel.
The one thing Dave doesn't address but is very likely the reason why solar roadways actually DO make sense: SPACE. A road is an area of land nobody cares about if it is fitted with solar panels. If you drive through the north of Germany you'll see quite large fields perfectly suitable for keeping animals or growing food which are filled with solar panels so valuable land is wasted. The picture above shows the problem with putting solar panels on buildings: Aesthetics. IMHO you also can't compare prices from established technology versus new technology and say the established technology has already won. I you do that there will never be any progress.

And even if the French solar road fails the government has sponsored some jobs and hopefully gained a bunch of engineers with hands-on experience with solar panel technology.
We already have some solar panels by a road in Australia, see attachment below. Its not great and just hiding a rubbish dump site, and the glare off the panels is rather dangerous at times. You can explore some of it via google maps:
https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-37.7676041,144.8048665,3a,75y,241.69h,79.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRgGjvF4twpCQ4qDtafLY5A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Still... what if roads end up to be the only place left to place additional solar panels?

Another theoretic what-if question.
I'd be staggered that if all rooftops and suitable public land, and roads and parking lots covered etc didn't cater for all our solar supply needs.
There are just so many other much much much better options than driving on solar panels, it the absolute last desperate resort, and IMO not even worthy of a "what if" discussion.
But go ahead, argue away, good luck trying to come up with solutions for driving on solar panels that that low enough maintenance that doesn't make it a net negative investment.
Solar roadways doesn't magically become a viable idea because we have run out of space and its the only option.
To replace all other forms of energy input a typical person needs hundreds of square meters of solar panels, so its not a viable option for everyone unless we start making huge solar farms in the desert. Australia is almost the ideal case for solar with the low population density and favourable insolation, but the scale of the system needed is extreme. Covering every road in Australia with solar panels would meet around half the populations energy demand (not including industrial!).
 

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #82 on: February 15, 2016, 11:49:54 am »
Edit. Given his recent flirtation (ill advised IMHO) with the word bullshit in various contexts he may only be interested in pandering to the undiscriminating stuck on followers.

So you prefer I pander to the politically correct crowd? (of course you do)

But looking at this critically, I did actually bust the French Wattway system, so it's probably more a BUSTED video than a ranting BULLSHIT video.
I tend to use the term about 50/50 on my debunking videos.
Perhaps I'll change the title. But then of course everyone will think I'm pandering to the PC crowd  ::)
 

Offline rrinker

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #83 on: February 15, 2016, 12:00:17 pm »
 Perfect thing to post here and the video of a 10 second quote has been removed from YouTube for copyright violation. Grrrr. That is total bullshit.
Oh well, any Blues Brothers fans will know what I wanted to post.

 

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #84 on: February 15, 2016, 12:06:34 pm »
Dave, is there any chance you could drop the word "bullshit" from your videos on this topic?
Whenever the topic comes up on other forums the gushing plebs post the same solar roadways promotional material, but when an Engineer comes along to post one of your videos to refute it, he then gets banned because swearing isn't allowed on a lot of forums (yep, BS is considered swearing in the UK, sorry).
Like I couldn't even link this thread because again it would contain the same word :/

Use bit.ly or something.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #85 on: February 15, 2016, 12:35:21 pm »
I may even be wrong in suggesting you should not swear.

You could be very wrong indeed.
Who knows, my "swearing" might actually get the attention of more people because it might elicit a different emotional response in them that gets them more fired up about the issue.

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You can decide what you should do.

You're damn right I will, always have.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #86 on: February 15, 2016, 12:41:15 pm »
Whether you pander to anyone, or not, is not something I seek to change. I remain puzzled why you continue to refer to my criticism as PC. Perhaps it is because you see yourself as not politically correct and I am criticising you therefore it follows I must be PC.

I generally dislike people who tell other people (especially me) how they should talk and what words they should use. That gets an automatic "screw you" response and an instant PC label.
I don't believe for one second that your intent here is purely constructive as you describe, and that you don't want me to stop swearing because you don't personally like it, at least in some small way.
I'm done.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #87 on: February 15, 2016, 01:51:41 pm »
Well that's something we agree on. After watching your videos for all these years I hope you don't doubt I know it.

I know you know that  ;D
BTW, I have nothing wrong with you holding your viewpoint of course, in fact I support your right to hold that view and express your opinion on it. That's cool, just don't expect me to agree with it  ;D
 

Offline NANDBlog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #88 on: February 15, 2016, 10:09:36 pm »
Also @HackedFridgeMagnet: As I wrote before, space is not available in all places. When I visited New Zealand with a co-worker from Australia he and the NZ people told me you could drive 20 minutes outside the city and walk in the woods for days without meeting a single person. Especially in In the north-west part of Europe that is just impossible. It is difficult to wrap your head around these differences in population density and what effect they have on available space for things like large scale solar farms. For example: the NL is the second largest exporter of agricultural products in the world. This means that solar panels will have to earn a whole lot of money in order to use precious land for solar panels instead of growing some kind of plants. Land just isn't free.

Ofcourse it is very likely heavy trucks will wreck solar roads but on many multi lane roads the trucks are only allowed in one or two lanes. In Germany for example you can clearly see the right most lane(s) is(are) constructed differently for that reason.
You can put it between the rails of the railways. Nothing is going to touch them, and they are usually not shaded. The concept is the same, awful efficiency, but slightly better, because you dont need protective layers. It is still a bad idea, if you ask me.
There is approximately (wiki) 10 million m2 space between the rails in the Netherlands. The solar roadway doesnt need to be full speed bullshit. There is plenty of space everywhere to put solar panels, people should just use their brains.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #89 on: February 15, 2016, 10:27:05 pm »
Also @HackedFridgeMagnet: As I wrote before, space is not available in all places. When I visited New Zealand with a co-worker from Australia he and the NZ people told me you could drive 20 minutes outside the city and walk in the woods for days without meeting a single person. Especially in In the north-west part of Europe that is just impossible. It is difficult to wrap your head around these differences in population density and what effect they have on available space for things like large scale solar farms. For example: the NL is the second largest exporter of agricultural products in the world. This means that solar panels will have to earn a whole lot of money in order to use precious land for solar panels instead of growing some kind of plants. Land just isn't free.

No it's not, but it's strange how the Netherlands managed to cross the 1GW installed solar capacity barrier in 2014, one of the top 20 countries or so. They seems to be doing ok so far.

Quote
The solar roadway doesnt need to be full speed bullshit. There is plenty of space everywhere to put solar panels, people should just use their brains.

Yes, they can be beside, over, above, the roadways or cycles paths or walkways, all of which are infinitely more reliable solutions with much better payback.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #90 on: February 15, 2016, 10:44:13 pm »
Also @HackedFridgeMagnet: As I wrote before, space is not available in all places. When I visited New Zealand with a co-worker from Australia he and the NZ people told me you could drive 20 minutes outside the city and walk in the woods for days without meeting a single person. Especially in In the north-west part of Europe that is just impossible. It is difficult to wrap your head around these differences in population density and what effect they have on available space for things like large scale solar farms. For example: the NL is the second largest exporter of agricultural products in the world. This means that solar panels will have to earn a whole lot of money in order to use precious land for solar panels instead of growing some kind of plants. Land just isn't free.
No it's not, but it's strange how the Netherlands managed to cross the 1GW installed solar capacity barrier in 2014, one of the top 20 countries or so. They seems to be doing ok so far.
Roof space is filling up quickly! The problem is most people have small roofs. I might be able to cram a 3kW array of solar panels on my roof where your roof seems to allow for double that amount easely.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline rrinker

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #91 on: February 16, 2016, 12:06:48 am »
Also @HackedFridgeMagnet: As I wrote before, space is not available in all places. When I visited New Zealand with a co-worker from Australia he and the NZ people told me you could drive 20 minutes outside the city and walk in the woods for days without meeting a single person. Especially in In the north-west part of Europe that is just impossible. It is difficult to wrap your head around these differences in population density and what effect they have on available space for things like large scale solar farms. For example: the NL is the second largest exporter of agricultural products in the world. This means that solar panels will have to earn a whole lot of money in order to use precious land for solar panels instead of growing some kind of plants. Land just isn't free.

Ofcourse it is very likely heavy trucks will wreck solar roads but on many multi lane roads the trucks are only allowed in one or two lanes. In Germany for example you can clearly see the right most lane(s) is(are) constructed differently for that reason.
You can put it between the rails of the railways. Nothing is going to touch them, and they are usually not shaded. The concept is the same, awful efficiency, but slightly better, because you dont need protective layers. It is still a bad idea, if you ask me.
There is approximately (wiki) 10 million m2 space between the rails in the Netherlands. The solar roadway doesnt need to be full speed bullshit. There is plenty of space everywhere to put solar panels, people should just use their brains.

 Other than the strip of grease down the middle of the rails on every railroad track I've even seen. It is otherwise fairly well protected, bot the panels will quickly get very dirty.

 

Offline zapta

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #92 on: February 16, 2016, 01:29:51 am »
Dave, you should subtitle (in french) your video and send it to our french ministers...

If someone wants to provide the French subtitle file then I can upload it.
they'll understand it without subtitles. Days that the french only spoke french are long gone.

Yes, many people in France are speaking other languages these days. I am not sure if it's English though. :)
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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #93 on: February 16, 2016, 05:40:16 am »
Other than the strip of grease down the middle of the rails on every railroad track I've even seen. It is otherwise fairly well protected, bot the panels will quickly get very dirty.

You can have a special panel-cleaning train that goes around once a week cleaning/polishing them.

That's the great thing about railroads; all the dimensions are very exact so you can do stuff like that.

(Just make sure there's no chains hanging down underneath the freight trains....it would only take one bad train to do hundreds of millions of $$$ in damage)

« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 05:45:44 am by Fungus »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #94 on: February 16, 2016, 06:06:40 am »
Also @HackedFridgeMagnet: As I wrote before, space is not available in all places. When I visited New Zealand with a co-worker from Australia he and the NZ people told me you could drive 20 minutes outside the city and walk in the woods for days without meeting a single person. Especially in In the north-west part of Europe that is just impossible. It is difficult to wrap your head around these differences in population density and what effect they have on available space for things like large scale solar farms. For example: the NL is the second largest exporter of agricultural products in the world. This means that solar panels will have to earn a whole lot of money in order to use precious land for solar panels instead of growing some kind of plants. Land just isn't free.

Ofcourse it is very likely heavy trucks will wreck solar roads but on many multi lane roads the trucks are only allowed in one or two lanes. In Germany for example you can clearly see the right most lane(s) is(are) constructed differently for that reason.
You can put it between the rails of the railways. Nothing is going to touch them, and they are usually not shaded. The concept is the same, awful efficiency, but slightly better, because you dont need protective layers. It is still a bad idea, if you ask me.
There is approximately (wiki) 10 million m2 space between the rails in the Netherlands. The solar roadway doesnt need to be full speed bullshit. There is plenty of space everywhere to put solar panels, people should just use their brains.
Other than the strip of grease down the middle of the rails on every railroad track I've even seen. It is otherwise fairly well protected, bot the panels will quickly get very dirty.
AFAIK there are no trains in the NL left which let everything from the toilet drop on the rails. This was a bit awkward in the old days. When you flushed the toilets a hatch at the bottom of the toilet bowl would open and you could see the tracks! Ofcourse you wheren't supposed to use the toilet at stations but sometimes the call of nature was too strong! Still a defect from a train could do a lot of damage. I'm not sure how this works with maintenance. Every now and then the tracks need to be lifted to add extra ballast; remember the NL is a swamp so everything sinks into the ground. The solar panels would make the maintenance work impossible.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline rrinker

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #95 on: February 16, 2016, 06:21:43 am »
Also @HackedFridgeMagnet: As I wrote before, space is not available in all places. When I visited New Zealand with a co-worker from Australia he and the NZ people told me you could drive 20 minutes outside the city and walk in the woods for days without meeting a single person. Especially in In the north-west part of Europe that is just impossible. It is difficult to wrap your head around these differences in population density and what effect they have on available space for things like large scale solar farms. For example: the NL is the second largest exporter of agricultural products in the world. This means that solar panels will have to earn a whole lot of money in order to use precious land for solar panels instead of growing some kind of plants. Land just isn't free.

Ofcourse it is very likely heavy trucks will wreck solar roads but on many multi lane roads the trucks are only allowed in one or two lanes. In Germany for example you can clearly see the right most lane(s) is(are) constructed differently for that reason.
You can put it between the rails of the railways. Nothing is going to touch them, and they are usually not shaded. The concept is the same, awful efficiency, but slightly better, because you dont need protective layers. It is still a bad idea, if you ask me.
There is approximately (wiki) 10 million m2 space between the rails in the Netherlands. The solar roadway doesnt need to be full speed bullshit. There is plenty of space everywhere to put solar panels, people should just use their brains.
Other than the strip of grease down the middle of the rails on every railroad track I've even seen. It is otherwise fairly well protected, bot the panels will quickly get very dirty.
AFAIK there are no trains in the NL left which let everything from the toilet drop on the rails. This was a bit awkward in the old days. When you flushed the toilets a hatch at the bottom of the toilet bowl would open and you could see the tracks! Ofcourse you wheren't supposed to use the toilet at stations but sometimes the call of nature was too strong! Still a defect from a train could do a lot of damage. I'm not sure how this works with maintenance. Every now and then the tracks need to be lifted to add extra ballast; remember the NL is a swamp so everything sinks into the ground. The solar panels would make the maintenance work impossible.
It's not even the no longer used direct dump toilets - the grease and grime from the traction motor gears and the wheel bearings of the cars leaves a black strip down the middle of the rails. And yes, there's no way anything solid between the rails would eb compatible with the maintenance operations of cleaning the ballast, replacing ties, or just tamping the ballast. Every bit if not more impractical than roads.
 

Offline Falkra

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #96 on: February 16, 2016, 06:34:46 am »
I'm french, and in my opinion this is indeed... what you said about it in the video. :)
This is another very expensive project, and...   :palm:
« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 06:36:41 am by Falkra »
 

Offline edy

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #97 on: February 16, 2016, 02:24:29 pm »
Now that we are in the age of EMOTICONs, I vote to add the EMOJI to our Message Post editor. Combined together with the we don't have to even spell it out....  :-DD


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Offline zapta

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #98 on: February 16, 2016, 05:24:17 pm »
According to the French government, it's too late now to avoid 'climate chaos'

http://www.mrctv.org/videos/french-foreign-minister-says-we-have-500-days-avoid-climate-chaos
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline nwvlab

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #99 on: February 16, 2016, 06:49:28 pm »
According to the French government, it's too late now to avoid 'climate chaos'

http://www.mrctv.org/videos/french-foreign-minister-says-we-have-500-days-avoid-climate-chaos

Ahh, now I get why they are pursuing the solar-roadway option, instead of a serious one: the climate is already screwed up, so who cares if we are actually doing more damage?


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