Author Topic: EEVblog #859 - Bypass Capacitor Tutorial  (Read 43698 times)

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Online ConKbot

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Re: EEVblog #859 - Bypass Capacitor Tutorial
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2016, 02:01:40 pm »
Can't we do something like a distributed capacitor? Supposedly a distributed capacitor may result in wideband operation.
As bktemp said, thats what power and ground planes are for, and you can get high dielectric constant(Dk) PCB substrates targeted at power planes, ie 1-2 mil thick to keep the planes close, not as well behaved or stringent characteristics as RF high Dk materials, but good enough for decoupling.  Its also sort of whats going on in effect when you have a small grid of decoupling caps opposite of an FPGA or other large BGA device.
Also mentioned was series resistors, which will stop resonances, but they also "De-Q" the capacitor, so it will be mediocre in a broader band of frequencies rather than really good at a narrow range. Parallel enough to get the total impedance down, and you have a broadband decoupling network. But as Dave said, that's a desperate solution.


Ive seen arguments for and against using multiple value decoupling caps (resonances and whatnot) However one thing which most definitely benefits from multiple values is SMPS output filtering. While it seems like decoupling since its a bunch of caps from VCC to GND, your goal is to filter the output ripple. Ive had good luck on a ~2 MHz SMPS with using the TDK  component characteristic viewer to select caps with their impedance minimum right on the odd harmonics of SMPS switching frequency.  <20 miliohms between the 1st and 11th harmonics, only 3 cap values, and it wasnt 1u, 100n, 10n  ;)

I wanted to try X2Y caps, but Johansens information about each specific cap is rather lacking, so I ended up going with 0306 caps for a low inductance option.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2016, 02:15:40 pm by ConKbot »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #859 - Bypass Capacitor Tutorial
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2016, 02:27:05 pm »
I've even read about people demanding from manufacturers high ESR caps, or trying to spoil the resonances with series resistors.
I've seen series resistors added. You must be pretty desperate to have to do that.
Not really. Some LDOs like the LM1117 are designed for tantalum decoupling caps but since I hate to use tantalums for various reasons I always use a 0.47 Ohm resistor + 10uf MLCC otherwise the LM1117 will sing like a bird. If the board doesn't have a power plane I simply put the 10uf a few centimeters away from the LM1117 through a thin trace.

Decoupling capacitors are an interesting topic. For examples FPGAs. I have read application notes about decoupling, but it is impossible to do on cheap 2 or 4 layer boards without burried vias and other expensive stuff you can't afford unless you make thousands of boards because you need the top layer for routing all the signals.
Actually you can achieve a lot with a double sided board and an FPGA in a QFP package as long as the bottom layer isn't cut up too much so it can act as a ground plane. The power supplies can be routed as rings on the top layer under the FPGA and connected through links on the bottom layer. This way the decoupling capacitors can be on the top layer and provide excellent decoupling.
Quote
I have compared many FPGA board from all kind of equipment (medical image processing, communication equipment) and the decoupling on all boards was much worse than the requirements from the FPGA manufacturer's application notes.
I agree but those application notes usually assume different power supplies for various nets. If you minimise the number of different power nets and use a clever arrangement with power layers on a 4 or 6 layer board you can get away with much less decoupling and have all components on one side. I didn't watch the video so I don't know whether Dave has brought it up already: there can be huge difference between capacitors with the same base specifications. For example: '10uf 16V X5R size 0603' still says absolutely nothing about the characteristic of a capacitor. One type of X5R capacitors can have more or less voltage dependant change in capacity so it is absolutely necessary to check the datasheet if the capacitance needs to be a guaranteed minimum at a certain voltage.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2016, 02:43:04 pm by nctnico »
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Offline tszaboo

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Re: EEVblog #859 - Bypass Capacitor Tutorial
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2016, 03:33:59 pm »
At work I use Kemet Spice to calculate the bypass capacitors: ec.kemet.com/tools
They also got an web based version: ksim.kemet.com/

Drawback: This simulator only KEMET offers capacitors ;)
Another, equally useful program is the TDK SEAT. It plots all the curves you want to ever know of any given TDK capacitor.
I've even read about people demanding from manufacturers high ESR caps, or trying to spoil the resonances with series resistors.

I've seen series resistors added. You must be pretty desperate to have to do that.
Not really. Linear regulators dont like low ESR, or some voltage reference noise reduction pins dont like low ESR. slyt339 from TI for example explains this.

Can't we do something like a distributed capacitor? Supposedly a distributed capacitor may result in wideband operation.
It is called 4+ layer PCB with GND an power plane. Works up to very high frequency, but capacitance is small. So you need the 10n, 100n. The bigger value 0402 and 0201 capacitors are becoming better at this also.
I guess someone can make a triangle shaped capacitor...
 

Offline c4757p

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Re: EEVblog #859 - Bypass Capacitor Tutorial
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2016, 03:40:54 pm »
I've even read about people demanding from manufacturers high ESR caps, or trying to spoil the resonances with series resistors.

I've seen series resistors added. You must be pretty desperate to have to do that.
Not really. Linear regulators dont like low ESR, or some voltage reference noise reduction pins dont like low ESR. slyt339 from TI for example explains this.

Agreed, decidedly not desperate. I've done it quite a lot when I wanted something in the form factor of a MLCC but with high DF. That's not a bad thing, it's something that's quite often desirable. Hence why we even have a name for it in certain applications: "snubber" :)

I usually try to put at least one chunky, lossy capacitor on every rail, it can go a long way to damp resonances.
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Offline apis

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Re: EEVblog #859 - Bypass Capacitor Tutorial
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2016, 04:28:54 pm »
What I find a bit discouraging though: what do you do if you don't have access to a network analyser, etc, so you can verify it actually works, and not only according to theory. Don't wan't to connect a resonator to the bus. Are your only option trial and error, prayer and faith in the datasheets?
 

Offline kcozens

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Re: EEVblog #859 - Bypass Capacitor Tutorial
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2016, 05:42:39 pm »
When I received the email message about this video on Thursday I thought it was a topic for Fundamental Fridays. It turns it was. Darn timezones.  :P

Useful information, Dave. One thought that I had about the video is whether you would have seen any differences in the response curves if you had changed the order of the bypass caps. If some of the bypass caps can't be placed that close to an IC should I wonder how much, if any, difference it makes if you have the smaller value capacitors are closer to, or further away, from the IC.
 

Offline German_EE

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Re: EEVblog #859 - Bypass Capacitor Tutorial
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2016, 06:36:36 pm »
One other thing that can be fun to try if you have a network analyzer is what happens when you use a solderless breadboard. A 50 ohm resistor placed across the test terminals will have a flat response, the same resistor at the end of 15cm of breadboard looks crazy.

Nice video though.
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Offline Mr Simpleton

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Re: EEVblog #859 - Bypass Capacitor Tutorial
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2016, 07:26:30 pm »
Some say , parallelling caps of different value may worsen the thing...
http://www.cypress.com/file/135716/download

 

Offline MobileWill

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Re: EEVblog #859 - Bypass Capacitor Tutorial
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2016, 08:32:23 pm »
Great video. Just in time for a STM32 project I am currently in the middle of designing. This video really helped clear things up.
 

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Re: EEVblog #859 - Bypass Capacitor Tutorial
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2016, 09:01:22 pm »
What I find a bit discouraging though: what do you do if you don't have access to a network analyser, etc, so you can verify it actually works, and not only according to theory. Don't wan't to connect a resonator to the bus. Are your only option trial and error, prayer and faith in the datasheets?
Trial and error might be part of it, you can usually measure the first few harmonics of your system with an oscilloscope and with a long FFT window any problematic peaking will show up. Then try some combinations until you get the noise down to an acceptable level.
 

Offline The Electrician

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Re: EEVblog #859 - Bypass Capacitor Tutorial
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2016, 09:52:18 pm »
Dave, can the Red Pitaya sweeps be shown with a logarithmic vertical scale rather than linear?  That way the sweeps would look more like manufacturer's data for capacitor resonance.

I showed this sort of thing at lower frequencies, but the results of interaction between mulitple capacitors is the same.

It's shown in reply #9, #11 and #12 in this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/capacitor-measurements-on-an-impedance-analyzer/
 

Offline Carrington

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Re: EEVblog #859 - Bypass Capacitor Tutorial
« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2016, 10:21:14 pm »
This stuff can be quite complex.
Sometimes I used this calculator, just as reference.

http://www.ultracad.com/esr_calc.htm
My English can be pretty bad, so suggestions are welcome. ;)
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Offline c4757p

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Re: EEVblog #859 - Bypass Capacitor Tutorial
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2016, 10:22:17 pm »
This stuff can be quite complex.

This one gets one or two brownie points.
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Offline Carrington

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Re: EEVblog #859 - Bypass Capacitor Tutorial
« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2016, 11:00:12 pm »
This stuff can be quite complex.

This one gets one or two brownie points.
Well, I think that isn't necessary to be an expert in the field, to know that, right?  :-//

Guy! I had to use the "www.urbandictionary.com" to know what the hell is a "brownie points".  :)

Edit: Sorry, my English is not perfect, I had to edit it.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2016, 11:19:35 pm by Carrington »
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Offline uncle_bob

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Re: EEVblog #859 - Bypass Capacitor Tutorial
« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2016, 01:01:18 am »
Can't we do something like a distributed capacitor? Supposedly a distributed capacitor may result in wideband operation.

Hi

Running through the answers the whole issue of planes has sort of been talked around, but not directly addressed:

In a modern board, you can build a pair of planes with spacing in the 3 mil (call it 0.07 mm) range. The impedance of this plane (with normal materials) is quite low. Right up to the point that your current spike bounces off the edge of the board and returns to origin, they provide a very low impedance voltage source. Microwave layout rules can be used to make this true to quite high frequencies.

If you then "distribute" your bypass caps all around this same plane, they can start to source current while things are bouncing back and forth. How it all works out in the end? Welcome to EM modeling ...

Before you dash off ... The planes need to be pretty tight to get the impedance down. 40 mill / 1 mm spacing .. not a good thing. Your plated through hole inductance also matters. A 60 mill (1.5 mm) hole is an open circuit. A 2 or 3 mil hole (0.05 to 0.07 mm) hole is "useful". No this probably isn't what your $10 for 5 boards outfit is running as their standard process.

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Re: EEVblog #859 - Bypass Capacitor Tutorial
« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2016, 05:41:01 am »
Errata:

@13:40 ish: the scales are log-log in that type of curve, so, it doesn't go to DC and infinity. :)

@18:10 ish he kicks; 18:45 misses the field goal. :P  The 'sum' curve necessarily must rise above the constituent curves, where they intersect.  This is a real effect (central to the thesis), and cannot be ignored, whether invoking complex numbers or not!

@ anywhere: although trace inductance is mentioned (so this point is fair game!), the inductance between caps, and from caps to the device pin, is not mentioned.

Here's an example of the correct sum:



I'm using pulled-out-of-my-ass numbers here, but they're approximately representative.  The ESL is approximately proportional to geometry scale, typical for 1206, 0805 and 0603 or the like.  The ESR is a typical guess; do look up the real values if you're going to do this.  (Somewhat more accurate SPICE models are given by the usual database programs -- TDK SEAT and Kemet SPICE, and I think others have similar; but beware these produce fixed-frequency models, so you need to pick a representative frequency as a starting point. YMMV.)

The impedance plot is:



As you can see, the two peaks are prominent, over 0.3 ohm: greater than even the ESR of the smallest cap, and worse than a single ESL of 8.5nH.  Even though, naively looking at the topology, there should be somewhat less than 4nH because of parallel combination.

But in the real world, we cannot place capacitors in precisely the same place!  There must be inductance between them as well.  Trace lengths, as well as component body lengths and via lengths, count against both the capacitors' ESL, and introduce inductances between them.

(Vias aren't relevant in the demonstrated example, with parallel strips on the same layer -- but they are relevant to most PCBs, where SMT pins are routed and bypassed on an outer layer, and ground is on an inner or opposite layer.)

This looks like:



Note I rearranged the source, and added another capacitor on the left side.  The larger inductance represents a couple inches of trace length, and the higher ESR and C represent a bulk capacitor, like the bypass on a linear regulator for instance.  The voltage source is serving as a probe, where the device pin would be, so we measure the impedance into that location only.  (The plot computes V(V1) / I(V1), the impedance seen by V1.)

Note also that ground is assumed ideal, which isn't the case, but a ground plane is close enough to ideal so I won't bother taking the time.  Anyway, accounting for that (or, if your board is actually routed that way, as Ye Logic Boardes Of Olde, with VCC+GND routed beneath the rows of ICs), just adds more series inductance between parts, so it's not topologically important.  (It does, however, introduce common mode inductance, which means you get ground bounce between ICs.  All kinds of messy!)

The impedance plot,



is much higher (notice the scale change!), peaking around 2 ohms before running away again in the high frequency limit.

Notice how it's flattening out at low frequencies.  It plateaus to, you guessed it: about 1 ohm there.  (At still lower frequencies, it rises again, but only because there's no regulator.  A real regulator would show decreasing impedance to the left, giving good regulation near DC.)

That it plateaus to something stable, is both interesting and useful!

So, what can we do about the high impedances?

One cannot escape the fact that, the power supply rail is a Power Distribution Network (PDN).  As with any network, it can be approximated as an RLC equivalent.  The basic RLC parts are the ESR, ESL and C from the capacitors, and series L from trace lengths and vias (and sometimes capacitance as well).  (Dave kind-of mentioned trace capacitance: however, there is a much more interesting reason beneath that!)

When looking at a network, we must observe two things: impedance Z and frequency F.  The frequency response of a network depends on only these parameters, and how the impedance and frequency of a given stage (i.e., a single LC unit in the chain) vary from the mean value within the network.  If we want to optimize for a particular goal (such as low impedance over a wide frequency range), we have to learn to work within this domain!

How do Z and F correspond to the circuit?  Very simply:
\( Z_0 = \sqrt{\frac{L}{C} \)
\( F_0 = \frac{1}{2 \pi \sqrt{L C}} \)

Any time you have a chain of series L and parallel C (series meaning, spanning horizontally from branch to branch; parallel meaning, vertically from branch to GND), you have something that looks suspiciously like a transmission line.

Traces are fundamentally transmission lines.  At low frequencies, we approximate TLs as a single inductor or capacitor: which one we choose depends on how the circuit impedance compares to the TL's characteristic impedance.  Lower and it looks inductive, higher and it looks capacitive.

The frequency is "low" when it's below, say, 1/10th the electrical length of the TL.  At 100MHz, this is 30cm.  A 100 ohm trace, 30cm long, has about 115nH of equivalent inductance, and will measure this value over quite a wide range (about 3 decades: from ~100MHz down to ~100kHz, when DCR (~0.1 ohm?) takes over).

PDNs are intentionally very low impedances, so we'll only be concerned with traces as inductors.  For other circuits, like sensitive analog, or RF, signal impedances can be quite high (kohms, Mohms even!), and we would be concerned about equivalent capacitance instead.  (All the same reasoning used here still applies, but you're getting caps instead of chokes!)

PDNs also do their work in the "low" frequency range.  Trace lengths between capacitors and devices are millimeters, while the frequencies of interest top out at 100MHz or so.  (It's not practical to try to design a PDN beyond 100MHz, and most ICs do not require the PCB to be that good.  Manufacturers have to deal with this range themselves, which is why very large CPUs have onboard capacitors.  Furthermore, within the die itself, vast swaths of parallel metal layers provide very "fast" capacitance, to respond to the tens-of-picoseconds switching edges the transistors produce!)

So we can approximate traces as inductors.  Whoop de do.  Where's the magic?

The magic savior is resistance!  Use ESR to your advantage.  Any time you have loss (equivalent resistance) comparable to reactance, you have a well damped resonant circuit, and instead of peaks and valleys, you get humps and dips.

You can solve for the ideal circuit, by calculating backwards from the pin itself.

1. Suppose the pin is 5nH (a couple mm length from die to PCB pad).  It's a VCC pin, adjacent to a GND pin, on, say, a TQFP packaged microcontroller.  (There are probably four or more pairs of VCC/GND pins around the chip -- simply solve for one, and repeat the layout for all of them.)
2. The microcontroller demands peak currents up to 100mA (per pin pair / IO bank), regulation better than 10% (i.e., no peaks or dips or ringing beyond +/-10%), and has a 3.3V supply.  That means delta V <= 0.33V, and Z <= 3.3 ohms.  This is required up to 50MHz.
3. The pin itself has 5nH, which has a reactance of 3.3 ohms at \$ F_{\textrm{max}} = \frac{3.3 \Omega}{2 \pi 5\,\textrm{nH}} \$ or 105MHz, so we only have about 50% overhead for ESL to the first cap.
4. We'll use an 0603 0.1uF cap near the pin pads: this will be around 3nH.  Total inductance to the device is now 8nH, so we expect to achieve 2.5 ohms at 50MHz.  At that frequency, the capacitor looks inductive (Xc = 0.032 ohms, less than the ESR even, so ESL is dominant), and the voltage dropped across the ESL is a modest fraction of the voltage at the pin (the pin ESL and cap ESL act as a voltage divider).
5. We can resonate the ESL with another capacitor.  Now here's the magic: if we can choose components so that the impedance \$Z_0 \leq \textrm{ESR}\$, we can have the ESR dominate, and the resonance will be damped!  We're starting with about an ohm's worth of ESL, so we have to add an ohm of ESR somewhere.
6. We could put a resistor in series with the cap, or we can put an R+C in parallel with it.  A series resistor will itself have ESL, making things too much worse, so let's do the latter.  R = 1 ohm and \$C \geq 2.5 \times \$ the other cap (i.e., 0.25uF -- 0.33uF or 0.47uF is the next closest value).

This looks like:



I've assumed an 0603 is reasonable for 0.47uF, which certainly is true for a 3.3V supply (I'd recommend a >= 10V X7R part, readily available).



Note how flat it is (relatively speaking), and there are no peaks!  Indeed, it flattens out to 0.5 ohms in the middle there, where the supply acts in parallel with the local "bulk" cap -- which itself isn't really very bulky, and could be smaller while still serving the same function.

We don't even really need the 0.47uF at all -- in the <10MHz range, the supply itself is doing a fine job.  With the 0.47uF removed, the curve stays flat at 0dB (i.e., 1 ohm) until the notch.

The notch, by the way, is 3nH + 5nH and 0.1uF ==> 5.8MHz.  Eagle eyed readers will have spotted this. :)

8. What if we want to do better?

We can't really raise the high frequency limit, because that's the manufacturer's problem, due to pin geometry.  (With some series-resonant trickery, it can be pushed closer, but I won't go into that here.)

If we wanted to make the 'mid-band' lower and wider, we can simply add larger capacitors in parallel.  Because the frequencies are low, they can be placed at modest distances (10-30nH), which makes them very easy to place.  But we can't go crazy, either: a few electrolytic or tantalum will improve things, because their ESRs will act in parallel, presenting a reasonable resistance (say 0.1-0.5 ohms) across a wide spectrum, without making things resonate.  But ceramics or aluminum polymers, untamed by added ESR, will make things significantly worse...





This is just removing the ESR from the 0.47uF, and shoving it a few cms away, so it's about midway between the supply and the pin.  How horrible!

However, it's noteworthy that we still haven't blown the spec.  The supply will ring noticeably at the peak there (3nH + 3nH + 15nH and 0.47uF + 0.1uF ==> 3.8MHz), but with an impedance of 1.7 ohms, it won't ring worse than about 2.5% of the supply (~85mVpk), and that's if the MCU thrashes multiple simultaneous GPIOs at the resonant frequency!

This is the reason why manufacturers and appnotes almost always suggest capacitor overkill: if you don't know any better, adding more caps is probably not going to make things critically worse.  But it often won't make things any better, and a critical analysis of the network, and its properties, will show why that is true.

Cheers,

Tim
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Offline Carrington

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Re: EEVblog #859 - Bypass Capacitor Tutorial
« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2016, 06:15:30 am »
That is why SIwave and similar SW exist.

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Re: EEVblog #859 - Bypass Capacitor Tutorial
« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2016, 12:41:40 pm »
Dave: Goof at 31:29... you said the 0612 has 170 puff of inductance.
 

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Re: EEVblog #859 - Bypass Capacitor Tutorial
« Reply #43 on: March 12, 2016, 12:50:48 pm »
Picky, picky, picky....
 

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Re: EEVblog #859 - Bypass Capacitor Tutorial
« Reply #44 on: March 12, 2016, 08:32:06 pm »
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Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #859 - Bypass Capacitor Tutorial
« Reply #45 on: March 12, 2016, 08:40:52 pm »
Picky, picky, picky....

Just to let him know so he can add a Youtube comment...

 

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Re: EEVblog #859 - Bypass Capacitor Tutorial
« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2016, 04:31:59 am »
If making ceramic capacitors "sideways" makes them less inductive, why aren't all low voltage, high value ceramics made that way?
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Re: EEVblog #859 - Bypass Capacitor Tutorial
« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2016, 06:00:58 am »
What I find a bit discouraging though: what do you do if you don't have access to a network analyser, etc, so you can verify it actually works, and not only according to theory. Don't wan't to connect a resonator to the bus. Are your only option trial and error, prayer and faith in the datasheets?

Yeah, pretty much.
And any measurement is pretty pointless unless it's on the actual target PCB
 

Offline uncle_bob

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Re: EEVblog #859 - Bypass Capacitor Tutorial
« Reply #48 on: March 13, 2016, 03:35:22 pm »
What I find a bit discouraging though: what do you do if you don't have access to a network analyser, etc, so you can verify it actually works, and not only according to theory. Don't wan't to connect a resonator to the bus. Are your only option trial and error, prayer and faith in the datasheets?

Yeah, pretty much.
And any measurement is pretty pointless unless it's on the actual target PCB

Hi

Simply tooling up to properly *make* << 1 ohm wide band measurements is far from trivial. There are a lot of gotcha's along the road to getting it right on a real target like a pc board. Grabbing a 10 KHz to  10 GHz  network analyzer is the *easy* part of the process.

Bob

 

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Re: EEVblog #859 - Bypass Capacitor Tutorial
« Reply #49 on: March 13, 2016, 09:50:31 pm »
How about using a 50 Ohm to 0.1 Ohm RF transformer connected to a test point on the board and use a directional coupler to look at the return loss in a frequency sweep?
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 


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