Author Topic: EEVblog #867 - The Search For The First TTL Chip  (Read 26036 times)

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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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EEVblog #867 - The Search For The First TTL Chip
« on: April 06, 2016, 04:28:42 am »
Can Dave find the first mention of TTL chips, on the 50th anniversary of TTL?
Some old resurrected footage and a segment idea from July 2014, Welcome to Wayback Wednesday, were Dave looks though his old Electronics Australia magazine collection.

 

Offline gnavigator1007

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Re: EEVblog #867 - The Search For The First TTL Chip
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2016, 05:53:31 am »
This segment was awesome.  Too bad about the recording issues.  I love seeing the old magazines and thinking about what it was like and what has changed since.  Seems like a lot of work digging through your collection.  Reminded me a bit of a public television show we have here in the states called History Detectives.  Hope you will do more of these
 

Offline TheSteve

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Re: EEVblog #867 - The Search For The First TTL Chip
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2016, 06:00:42 am »
I love the history of electronics. I'd certainly be up for more videos. Just for fun I had a quick look through some TTL chips I was given years ago, the oldest I have in stock is a 7483 with date code 7205(older then me!).
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 06:09:03 am by TheSteve »
VE7FM
 

Offline amspire

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Re: EEVblog #867 - The Search For The First TTL Chip
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2016, 06:30:47 am »
I seem to remember that in the 60's, the yeild problems that TI was having with the 74 series was pretty bad. A 20% yield was good, and they had to run several fabs, because it wasn't uncommon for a single fab to loose the magic. The silicon wafers were pretty small then, so there were not a lot of chips on a wafer. I think I remember still reading of yield problems in the mid-70's. There was much more seat of the pants work and tweaking back then.

It took a while for TTL to get cheap enough to use instead of discrete diode-transistor logic for the hobbyist. The first time I got my hands on any 74 series chips was in the early 70's.

Definitely, those Fairchild RTL IC's were much cheaper, and also they could be used in analog circuits. They would have been the first ICs I ever used. The next would have been the Fairchild uA702 Op-amp. 3 power rails and if the inputs went outside the +/-5v common mode range, they would blow. The first ones I got would have cost the equivalent of about $30 in today's money. But it had a 30MHz bandwidth - pretty good for the first common opamp. 0.5mV offset. 2uV/C drift.

Buying these kind of parts in Sydney wasn't hard. George Brown used to be in Kent street, and I was able to get there after school.

Richard
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 06:46:08 am by amspire »
 

Offline bktemp

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Re: EEVblog #867 - The Search For The First TTL Chip
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2016, 06:40:52 am »
Great video.
Just an idea to add some extra features in the video series (if you plan to continue):
Since a lot of people watching the videos are much younger, they have probably never heard of DTL, tunnel diodes, tubes and other obsolete stuff. Maybe you could add some breadboard scenes experimenting with the parts shown in the magazines, like at the end of Fundamental Friday. Many parts are probably hard to find today and maybe too exensive, but it would be great to preserve the information for younger people in a nice video.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #867 - The Search For The First TTL Chip
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2016, 08:19:59 am »
I know I still have a couple of tubes of 7400 chips (circa 1980) - 7400, 7404 and some others...

They're in a box ... somewhere.
 

Offline German_EE

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Re: EEVblog #867 - The Search For The First TTL Chip
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2016, 09:09:11 am »
As a schoolchild I remember finding an issue of Practical Electronics that had a digital project in it. This also used modules rather than 0.1 inch DIP chips, it would have been about 1972. maybe 1973.

As for the video, more please, there's nothing wrong with a bit of history. Maybe then the 'young players' will appreciate how far we've come.
Should you find yourself in a chronically leaking boat, energy devoted to changing vessels is likely to be more productive than energy devoted to patching leaks.

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Offline grouchobyte

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Re: EEVblog #867 - The Search For The First TTL Chip
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2016, 10:30:37 am »
Hell, I not only have some DTL and RTL stuff like Fairchild 914 and 923's (JK flip flops) I have designed with them. I even designed an analog computer board with 2n107s and 741's for money.

http://semiconductormuseum.com/MuseumStore/MuseumStore_Fairchild_923_Index.htm

Ah, those were the days. Those parts are not only outdated by todays standards, good old yours truly is no spring chicken either.

Speaking of old, here's a guy I meet at a local bakery and sit across from at a common table and have coffee with every so often, in fact just last Saturday. He is 93 years old. Talk about crusty. This guy invented the pixel. Google him....Russell Kirsch. Unfortunately, he has advanced  Alzheimer's and talks ad nauseum  about his NIST achievements never remembering conversations that occured previously.

http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/image_052407.cfm

@grouchobyte
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 01:04:43 pm by grouchobyte »
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #867 - The Search For The First TTL Chip
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2016, 10:48:25 am »
Just an idea to add some extra features in the video series (if you plan to continue):
Since a lot of people watching the videos are much younger, they have probably never heard of DTL, tunnel diodes, tubes and other obsolete stuff. Maybe you could add some breadboard scenes experimenting with the parts shown in the magazines, like at the end of Fundamental Friday. Many parts are probably hard to find today and maybe too exensive, but it would be great to preserve the information for younger people in a nice video.

Good idea.
 

Offline ftonello

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Re: EEVblog #867 - The Search For The First TTL Chip
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2016, 12:31:42 pm »
Old school have much to teach yet!. I Have several old school magazines in PDF (from 70´s to now - only in portuguese) that time to time i consult for design ideas. For interested Brazilians viewers and others, you can contact me and i´ll provide the links for my maganizes for free once i think this is public domain now, and that you not planning selling in the internet. They will recognize the images below.
Of course, if permited by forum rules.


Hi from Brazil!!!
 

Offline nixfu

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Re: EEVblog #867 - The Search For The First TTL Chip
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2016, 01:10:25 pm »
Dave, one thing that would be fun to me to make part of a wayback wednesday segment would be if you have copies of those issues, is going through YOUR old articles and projects that were in EA, and Silicon Chip. 

No one could explain the project in depth like you could and it would be extra fun for those projects which you still have the original prototypes to show as well.

Just a thought.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 01:15:29 pm by nixfu »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #867 - The Search For The First TTL Chip
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2016, 05:49:04 pm »
Dave, one thing that would be fun to me to make part of a wayback wednesday segment would be if you have copies of those issues, is going through YOUR old articles and projects that were in EA, and Silicon Chip. 

No one could explain the project in depth like you could and it would be extra fun for those projects which you still have the original prototypes to show as well.
This could be a good idea to bring up some good old analogue circuit engineering.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline station240

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Re: EEVblog #867 - The Search For The First TTL Chip
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2016, 06:04:20 pm »
Most interesting part was the Fairchild FuL 900 series being 3.6V. I had no idea we had <5V logic back in 1966.
Could be interesting to see when the first 3.3V logic ICs came out.

Being in SA I just had to look up Texas Instruments Oldham road elizabeth SA. The road is right opposite Holdens (car plant).
I did find a job ad ( Sydney Morning Herald, Saturday, July 3, 1965, Page 80 ) that says:
"Since commencing [garbled] in Australia in 1959, the Company has expanded operations considerably In the manufacture of specialised engineering products, Including Non Ferrous and Ferrous thin gauge metal strip and [garbled] controls."
"The parent Company is a world leader in semi-conductors and electronics, as well as in specialised metals and controls"
Also states SA was the head office.
The buildings all look like generic factory buildings, so no idea which one was TI.
 

Online PA0PBZ

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Re: EEVblog #867 - The Search For The First TTL Chip
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2016, 06:14:29 pm »
Ironically the first thing I built with the 7400 series was analog, using one 7404 hex inverter. Two inverters to make a 1KHz tone, another 2 to modulate that with a .5 Hz frequency to make 2 tones, and the last 2 inverters to get a 27MHz crystal oscillating (probably on the 9MHz fundamental). The little bug could be heard up into the FM band within a distance of a few 100 meters.  ;D
Keyboard error: Press F1 to continue.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: EEVblog #867 - The Search For The First TTL Chip
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2016, 08:39:30 pm »
This is the oldest I have at hand, a 74153 date code 7024.

Not sure what my first chip circuit was but if I were to bet it would've probably been a 7400 as an SR flip flop. We used to use those old 6V lantern batteries with springs on the top for our 5V power supplies. Making a 5V power supply was luxury, usually a single PNP emitter follower like MJ2955 with zener on the base optionally as a darlington. The regular common currency was the LM309K but that was expensive.

 

Offline richfiles

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Re: EEVblog #867 - The Search For The First TTL Chip
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2016, 09:17:19 pm »


I got a kick reading about the neon logic. I have six of the decade counter/nixie tube display boards from an old ANITA Mk7 (from around 1961). Really cool bit of vintage kit. Wish I had the real deal... A working, complete calculator. Oh well, maybe someday.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 10:31:55 pm by richfiles »
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #867 - The Search For The First TTL Chip
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2016, 09:26:46 pm »
My first ventures into digital chips where the 4000 series CMOS logic chips but I have also built complex circuits with just 74LS series chips. IIRC one was a smart stepper motor controller with pull-in and pull-out (feed it the number of steps and toggle a line to make it go).
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline mark-r

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Re: EEVblog #867 - The Search For The First TTL Chip
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2016, 09:47:29 pm »

I have one of the Mullard circuit blocks that were in that advert, an FF12 flip-flop. I've also attached a section of a Philips/Mullard databook showing the circuits.





 
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Offline SL4P

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Re: EEVblog #867 - The Search For The First TTL Chip
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2016, 10:12:30 pm »
I was very young (around 14yo), and had the privilege of being invited to the studio recording of a 'Faraday Lecture' in Sydney.  The subject was exactly this - Integrated Circuits.
This was probably 1970 - in Australia's first fully colour equipped studio facility (VTC), and had maybe thirty people in the audience, with two on-camera engineer/presenters from the UK, with a couple of demos of the fundamentals - and the ability to create relatively complex, high-speed circuits before our eyes.
(IIRC, one was measuring the travel time of a light beam across the room)
Fantastic to watch and reflect back in how far we've come!
Don't ask a question if you aren't willing to listen to the answer.
 

Offline rolycat

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Re: EEVblog #867 - The Search For The First TTL Chip
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2016, 10:21:47 pm »
This is the oldest I have at hand, a 74153 date code 7024.

I think I can (just) beat that with this humble 7400 from 1969:



(Yes, it still works.)

The manufacturer took a little finding. Who remembers Transitron these days? They went bust in 1986, but apparently in 1961 they were number two in America after Texas Instruments.
 
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Offline jh15

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Re: EEVblog #867 - The Search For The First TTL Chip
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2016, 10:34:53 pm »
I worked in an oem manufacturing plant for Bell System products in the 70's and used to unsolder dtl DIPs from scrap boards to take home and learn from. Even in my sort of teen years there, i used cloro cleaning liquids to cool them,  but thought I'd be old before it affected me... So is why I watch EEVblog vs binging on Netflix now, I guess. My wife worked in Bell Labs.

The dtl chips, which I'm sure I have, were sort of shiner and hard, and rounder compared to the typical 7400 package.
fun stuff, keep it up.
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Offline nova1200

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Re: EEVblog #867 - The Search For The First TTL Chip
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2016, 11:37:13 pm »
Great video. My oldest is this 7474 from 1968:

Also have several tubes of 7400's from early 1969:
 

Offline Stephen Durr

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Re: EEVblog #867 - The Search For The First TTL Chip
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2016, 11:49:36 pm »
Good stuff. I would like to see more way-back videos.  :-+
"These go to eleven", Nigel Tufnel
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #867 - The Search For The First TTL Chip
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2016, 12:39:38 am »
Sigh.

Now I'm going to have to look for my 7400 series tubes ... just to find out the date codes.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: EEVblog #867 - The Search For The First TTL Chip
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2016, 04:01:16 am »
Most interesting part was the Fairchild FuL 900 series being 3.6V. I had no idea we had <5V logic back in 1966.
Most, if not all, RTL parts were 3.6V. I'm not sure why all manufacturers settled on exactly the same voltage, since they were not producing second sources of each other's parts.
 


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