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Author Topic: EEVblog #881 - Fontus Self Filling Water Bottle BUSTED!  (Read 28951 times)

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Offline Kilrah

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Re: EEVblog #881 - Fontus Self Filling Water Bottle BUSTED!
« Reply #150 on: April 21, 2017, 08:01:12 PM »
It just seems like some have moved from "well researched debunking to reestablish facts and scientific accuracy" to "making half-assed debunking videos without proper research just becasue it gets views", which is contraproductive.
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #881 - Fontus Self Filling Water Bottle BUSTED!
« Reply #151 on: April 21, 2017, 11:19:39 PM »
(Mods- can this series of posts be moved to one of the threads discussing this Science research article - none of this is about the Fonus)

And quoting the berkeley article
Quote
Device pulls water from dry air, powered only by the sun

BS. Dry air does not contain any water to pull.

Congratulations, you've successfully critiqued the "journalism" put out by a university public relations office.

Came here to say this.

There's no way one of the engineers wrote that article. It's some English student who thinks he's a story teller and wanted it to sound more dramatic.
 

Online wilfred

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Re: EEVblog #881 - Fontus Self Filling Water Bottle BUSTED!
« Reply #152 on: April 21, 2017, 11:50:23 PM »
Was it Chris Gammell who said on one of the recent AmpHour episodes that he thought debunking was a waste of HIS time? It was made fairly emphatically and for me it had tremendous cut-through.

Debunking in the name of pulp entertainment is starting to generate an ignorant tribalism that is clearly evident in posts on this forum.

Look at the time and energy wasted on the Batteriser or the uBeam. Look at the interest in forum members GK's oscilloscope Pong, or any other project that captures the imagination of forum members. Like the Z80 retro computers that appeal to me. I'd rather see people doing something constructive. I'm joining Chris Gammell in relegating debunking videos to the waste-of-MY-time bin.

Debunking as sport or entertainment has passed its best-before date as far as I am concerned. Even the Hyperloop wasn't even a new idea. It was first mooted over a century ago.

https://archive.org/stream/electricalexperi04gern#page/794/mode/1up

« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 11:54:22 PM by wilfred »
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #881 - Fontus Self Filling Water Bottle BUSTED!
« Reply #153 on: April 22, 2017, 12:01:54 AM »
Was it Chris Gammell who said on one of the recent AmpHour episodes that he thought debunking was a waste of HIS time? It was made fairly emphatically and for me it had tremendous cut-through.

Be careful what you wish for, there might be no one left willing to take up the debunking challenge when it's really needed.

FYI, I think debunking content is constantly needed in order to reinforce people's ability to think critically. Giving them the skills, the encouragement, and the constant reminder to do so.
By all means dis the ones you think are fluff pieces done for fun and entertainment, but be very careful wishing that they just stop altogether.
Perhaps I'm alone in being able to see the bigger picture here?
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #881 - Fontus Self Filling Water Bottle BUSTED!
« Reply #154 on: April 22, 2017, 12:05:11 AM »
Look at the time and energy wasted on the Batteriser or the uBeam.

Look at the countless people who have expressed gratitude for that "wasted energy", as they learned a great deal in the process.

I actually can't believe there is a discussion on whether or not it's worthwhile to debunk false claims. I'm on an engineering forum, right?  :-//
 
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Offline josecamoessilva

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Re: EEVblog #881 - Fontus Self Filling Water Bottle BUSTED!
« Reply #155 on: April 22, 2017, 01:40:14 AM »
I actually can't believe there is a discussion on whether or not it's worthwhile to debunk false claims. I'm on an engineering forum, right?  :-//

(Wading deeper and deeper into the swamp, against my better judgment...)

The value of debunking bad claims, or maybe we should use "critically analyzing" as a less charged phrase, as an education tool is indisputable: failure analysis is a basic tool in engineering, critical thinking an essential skill for life.

But we need to separate analysis that's technically correct and intellectually honest from "debunking" that has the same problems as, for example, creationist videos (technically wrong and intellectually dishonest).


As for TF and the Hyperloop,

1. The entire edifice of the debunking is based on TF not knowing a basic principle of physical modeling, the square-cube law; (I and many others posted that problem as a comment to the very first video about the Hyperloop; it's also in Shane Killian's first video). The vacuum demo he made with a ball bearing is precisely the type of error that 1st year mechanical engineers are taught to avoid when using physical models.

2. TF's Hyperloop failure mode analyses are wrong because he doesn't seem to know basic compressible fluid mechanics, particular how choked flow works. I can't recall most of the math, it's been decades after all, but the basic principles stuck and therefore I grokked TFs videos were wrong; others have done the math and offered to help, only to be ignored. Or dogpiled by TF's "followers." (Followers as in people who respond to math with "get lost loser, TF rulz.")

3. TF's 'argument from personal incredulity' approach is the same intellectual argument as a creationist's "the eye could never have evolved because it's so complex."  It's particularly bad because TF raises problems as unsolvable that have trivial, well-established engineering solutions. (Again, I and many others pointed that out in comments to the videos.)

4. TF uses specious comparisons, like a recent one between the energy necessary to lower the pressure in the tube, 200 MJ, with 50 kg of TNT, to create the impression that the energy is somehow "explosive," instead of 56 kWh of electrical energy (ok, more because of pump efficiency < 100%) or ~5 liters of jet fuel. This is at the level of the creationists' "hurricane in a junkyard" comparison.

I could go on, but the quicksand level is reaching my chest.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 02:38:39 AM by josecamoessilva »
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #881 - Fontus Self Filling Water Bottle BUSTED!
« Reply #156 on: April 22, 2017, 02:30:25 AM »
I'm on a hyperloop team.   :box:
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: EEVblog #881 - Fontus Self Filling Water Bottle BUSTED!
« Reply #157 on: April 22, 2017, 02:52:16 AM »
How many people are talking the time, energy, risk and abuse to attempt to publicly debunk stuff as we see them on a regular basis?
Me , Thunderf00t, err, umm, I'm struggling now, help me out ....

Yes, and that's what concerns me. I hate to see you associated with TF. I respect you and appreciated your early debunk videos. The majority of your forum members are technically sophisticated. I'd hate to see your video's (and fan base) evolve in the direction of the Thunderf00ts - with his style of hyped, intellectually sloppy "BUSTED" videos - and the group think that accompanies them (as Jose so eloquently describes re the Hyperloop videos).   They are counterproductive to the goal of promoting science and are more akin to the numerous anti-science videos out there.

I hope you'll stick to critically analyzing in a careful, non-hyped manner. That you'll stick to your area of expertise (electronics) and to carefully selected crowd-funded type marketing scams or hyped consumer products. Just my 2 cents.
 
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Offline majorfx

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Re: EEVblog #881 - Fontus Self Filling Water Bottle BUSTED!
« Reply #158 on: May 15, 2017, 09:12:54 PM »
I've just read the first critical article of an austrian newspaper on Fontus....  :palm::
https://derstandard.at/2000057185581/Selbstfuellende-Wasserflasche-Vorwuerfe-gegen-Wiener-Start-Up
they even link Daves video  :D
interresting notes about the government funding:
the responsible government agency
- does not disclose how much money they gave them
- states that, for this type of funding, technological feasibility and a plausible business model are NOT required
 :palm:  :wtf:
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #881 - Fontus Self Filling Water Bottle BUSTED!
« Reply #159 on: May 17, 2017, 05:53:54 PM »
I'm on a hyperloop team.   :box:

Have fun and milk the funding money whilst it lasts.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #881 - Fontus Self Filling Water Bottle BUSTED!
« Reply #160 on: May 17, 2017, 08:25:17 PM »
I'm on a hyperloop team.   :box:
Have fun and milk the funding money whilst it lasts.

That's the plan.

(although there's not much funding money here in Spain)
 

Offline martinr33

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Re: EEVblog #881 - Fontus Self Filling Water Bottle BUSTED!
« Reply #161 on: May 29, 2017, 03:26:49 PM »
They are back.

http://www.fontus.at/fontus-update.pdf

The claims seem plausible. The panels look more like the panels that Dave showed in his video. That is, huge. 200W of power seems like the new sweet spot.
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: EEVblog #881 - Fontus Self Filling Water Bottle BUSTED!
« Reply #162 on: May 29, 2017, 06:22:26 PM »
Nice, numbers indeed check out this time.

Which obviously confirms the original concept is unrealistic - unsurprisingly they're now trying to silently shift their marketing towards different purposes.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #881 - Fontus Self Filling Water Bottle BUSTED!
« Reply #163 on: May 29, 2017, 07:09:39 PM »
They are back.
http://www.fontus.at/fontus-update.pdf
The claims seem plausible. The panels look more like the panels that Dave showed in his video. That is, huge. 200W of power seems like the new sweet spot.

And even then you need ideal humidity conditions and optimal solar angle.
They are pathetically trying to salvage the idea. What they have no is nothing more than a traditional peltier based de-humidifer in a fancy bottle  ::)
 
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Offline spiemel

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Re: EEVblog #881 - Fontus Self Filling Water Bottle BUSTED!
« Reply #164 on: June 02, 2017, 07:26:32 AM »
Since they have tried to move the numbers into the (somewhat) more realistic thermodynamic range, over at the Metabunk forum (not trying to pitch another forum here btw) we started looking at the engineering side of the bottle. There are still significant challenges to the bottle to function even if they can hit the thermodynamic maximums. The issues I noted were some that Thunderf00t also noted:

1) power for 200W mains option of the bottle. Cannot be build into the bottle since 200W power brick is huge size
2) they claim the bottle is 40% smaller, but if you add the size of the folded solar mat, the volume compared to the old bottle/mat combo significantly increased. So it will take up more space in your backpack while hiking.
3) Weight likely increased 600% compared to old design. So you are carrying much more weight now on your hike as opposed to original design.
4) Unlikely they can ever incorporate an air filter (due to need to fully enclose the cold side of Peltier) and the fan/engine needed to pull air through HEPA-like filter
5) High likelihood of critical device failure due to inability to prevent backflow from water collected toward the electronics parts of the Peltier/fan assembly or otherwise to the Air filter, especially since that thing is top heavy
6) powerconfiguration where the power has to be transported from the power input at the bottom to all the power-consuming elements located in the top part (through a flatcable as they currently envisioned, that detaches at the bottle head and somehow has to perfectly align when screwing the electronics top part onto the water container part.

These points aren't nitpicking, these are real items that they need to take into consideration when going from prototype towards mass production and how it affects the functionality of a device for the consumer.

We haven't even mentioned that it is blatant false advertisement/bait&switch if they are now peddling a device 10x less efficient in producing water, while being heavier, bigger and won't work unless you leave it attached to a solar mat for 12hours in a stationary spot to obtain that single 1L of water per day. That is a big difference from collecting 0.8L of water in an hour, while hiking and having that 1sqft solar mat on the back of your backpack en being on the go.


 

Online orion242

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Re: EEVblog #881 - Fontus Self Filling Water Bottle BUSTED!
« Reply #165 on: August 26, 2017, 05:44:48 AM »
Along the same lines as this water bottle.

http://skyh2oinc.com/products-2/

Note their outdoor conditions needed to meet their rated capacity and where they think the market is.
 


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