Author Topic: EEVblog #902 - Solar Roadways Route 66 BUSTED  (Read 18048 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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EEVblog #902 - Solar Roadways Route 66 BUSTED
« on: July 19, 2016, 12:30:35 pm »
There has been a ton of media hype about paving the famous Route 66 with the Brusaw's Solar Roadways.
Too bad it's all over hyped bullshit.

Note, the last 5 minutes is repeat material.

 

Offline strangersound

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Re: EEVblog #902 - Solar Roadways Route 66 BUSTED
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2016, 01:14:48 pm »
It's either a serious commentary on the state of modern journalism and education, or one of the most expensive trolls ever conducted on Dave.  :-DD
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Offline Tom45

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Re: EEVblog #902 - Solar Roadways Route 66 BUSTED
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2016, 01:26:00 pm »
Yeah, the big fail here is all of the "journalists" hyping the "paving of Route 66" when in fact it is nothing of the sort.

The Solar Roadways people might be clueless, or they might be con artists. Either way that is their business. The sad part is that so many people and institutions seem to fall for it.
 

Offline Blastcap

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Re: EEVblog #902 - Solar Roadways Route 66 BUSTED
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2016, 05:25:27 pm »
I think many of the Solar roadway (SR) companies are in it for the federal funds. And are soaking up as much as they can before the bubble bursts.
Once SR stops getting funded, they die. I don't think any of the companies are sustainable as they are now.

Route 66 goes thru the dessert at many stretches (I'm not 100% on that, I'm no master in the US infrastructure), wouldn't it be better to build a quality solar array with the same amount of m² in the dessert, and keep all the converters, monitoring and other supporting systems in one place. Easier for everyone that way.
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: EEVblog #902 - Solar Roadways Route 66 BUSTED
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2016, 07:11:20 pm »
We have a similar project now in Germany, part government funded:

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/04/13/solmove-sees-german-roads-as-an-energy-source/

But it doesn't need expensive roadworks, it is some kind of solar-cell-carpet they just need to roll over a road, they say in a (German) article about it:

http://www.deutschlandfunk.de/fotovoltaik-fliesen-wenn-die-strasse-zum-kraftwerk-wird.676.de.html?dram:article_id=359922

Don't know, still the problem with snow or dirt on it, but we don't have much snow, maybe this is more feasible? But a carpet doesn't sound very durable.
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Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #902 - Solar Roadways Route 66 BUSTED
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2016, 08:52:24 pm »
On the snow melting thing. As a regular tar road is, by it's very nature, coated with a surface that is pretty much an almost perfect carbon nanotube ideal black body, probably almost as good as Vantablack ( so black you cannot see it, the next best thing to a black hole event horizon without the nasty gravity killing you) and that is, you guessed it, covered with snow and ice in the winter. Only way to clear it is to either mechanically remove it or to apply melting point depressants. That or wait for spring.

Solar wise the same, but the parking lot is better served with a roof structure, which by it's nature only has to cope with a snow and wind load, not a 22 ton point load ( the maximum axle load permitted on a regular road).
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #902 - Solar Roadways Route 66 BUSTED
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2016, 09:11:59 pm »
We have a similar project now in Germany, part government funded:
http://www.autoblog.com/2016/04/13/solmove-sees-german-roads-as-an-energy-source/
But it doesn't need expensive roadworks, it is some kind of solar-cell-carpet they just need to roll over a road, they say in a (German) article about it:
http://www.deutschlandfunk.de/fotovoltaik-fliesen-wenn-die-strasse-zum-kraftwerk-wird.676.de.html?dram:article_id=359922
Don't know, still the problem with snow or dirt on it, but we don't have much snow, maybe this is more feasible? But a carpet doesn't sound very durable.

Looks very similar to the French Colas Wattway one.
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: EEVblog #902 - Solar Roadways Route 66 BUSTED
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2016, 09:26:17 pm »
Looks very similar to the French Colas Wattway one.
Right, but is it better? They have a calculation page:
http://www.solmove.com/kalkulation/
Enter 100 m^2 and it says it costs EUR 25,000, but you'll get EUR 35,000 in 25 years :)
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Offline wblock

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Re: EEVblog #902 - Solar Roadways Route 66 BUSTED
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2016, 10:09:55 pm »
Solar wise the same, but the parking lot is better served with a roof structure, which by it's nature only has to cope with a snow and wind load, not a 22 ton point load ( the maximum axle load permitted on a regular road).

Well... it won't be axle load on the road surface.  Pressure on the road or panels will be the same as the air pressure in the tires.  Assuming it has pneumatic tires, anyway.  A bulldozer or some other road construction machinery is a different matter.
 

Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Re: EEVblog #902 - Solar Roadways Route 66 BUSTED
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2016, 10:43:42 pm »
Solar wise the same, but the parking lot is better served with a roof structure, which by it's nature only has to cope with a snow and wind load, not a 22 ton point load ( the maximum axle load permitted on a regular road).

Well... it won't be axle load on the road surface.  Pressure on the road or panels will be the same as the air pressure in the tires.  Assuming it has pneumatic tires, anyway.  A bulldozer or some other road construction machinery is a different matter.

Some back-of-the-envelope calculations:

An 'average' car tire at 2.6 bar has a surface contact with the road of about 0.015 m2, if we assume a car at 2 metric tons that equals 3.33 kg/cm^2 or 47.6 psi. (although these are dependent variables!)
« Last Edit: July 19, 2016, 10:56:14 pm by TheAmmoniacal »
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Offline thewyliestcoyote

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Re: EEVblog #902 - Solar Roadways Route 66 BUSTED
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2016, 11:51:23 pm »
Haha they have shown that southern Arizona is a better place to for solar panels than Idaho and Missouri.

 :clap: (slow)

I am from there and could have told anyone that for a lot less tax dollars than they got. My bid is $1.00 for this hard hitting research. Government does funny things when you don't ask for money, so I had to put something.

I think Solar Roadways government funding came from a SBIR. Typically those require results to go from phase 1 to 2. Phase 1 is usually just a investigation and simple prof of concept. It is common with SBIR's to require performance numbers. What the hell did they show? and why did they government approve for phase 2 ? 2 times!

There is nothing practical about this stupid solar roadway crap. How is it still around?  :palm:
 

Offline G7PSK

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Re: EEVblog #902 - Solar Roadways Route 66 BUSTED
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2016, 12:24:47 am »


There is nothing practical about this stupid solar roadway crap. How is it still around?  :palm:

Baksheesh?
 

Offline Pentium100

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Re: EEVblog #902 - Solar Roadways Route 66 BUSTED
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2016, 12:55:14 am »
About the snow melting thing. Put some carbon dust or ash on the snow to make it dark. If the snow does not melt, then there is not enough energy coming from the sun to melt it. And this would have much higher efficiency than a solar panel partly covered in snow. The only thing it would be capable of doing is to melt a little bit of snow, run out of energy and let the snow freeze into ice. Now you have one slippery road.
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #902 - Solar Roadways Route 66 BUSTED
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2016, 01:30:32 am »
let the snow freeze into ice. Now you have one slippery road.

Even with ordinary rain you'll still be driving on wet glass.

That doesn't sound like a very safe thing to do.

 

Offline abebarker

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Re: EEVblog #902 - Solar Roadways Route 66 BUSTED
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2016, 08:30:57 am »
I would love to see solar roads, especially on those long deserts stretches where there is not much traffic. Of course I am not thinking of the Brusaw's Solar Roadways. They have such a bad idea.

I am talking about my solar road that uses the regular bitumen and aggregate laid down on top of a network of some kind of piping which is used as a heat exchanger. I would think that would be a more efficient solar collector than any photo-voltaic solar panels available today.
 

Offline johansen

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Re: EEVblog #902 - Solar Roadways Route 66 BUSTED
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2016, 10:57:40 am »
Some back-of-the-envelope calculations:
An 'average' car tire at 2.6 bar has a surface contact with the road of about 0.015 m2, if we assume a car at 2 metric tons that equals 3.33 kg/cm^2 or 47.6 psi. (although these are dependent variables!)

funny, works out to be the air pressure in the tires?
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #902 - Solar Roadways Route 66 BUSTED
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2016, 06:05:58 pm »
HAs to be, as rubber is only there for transferring tle mass to the road, it does not really provide any physical support. Solid tyres ( as used on forklift trucks and such) are really not good at absorbing any vibration.
 

Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Re: EEVblog #902 - Solar Roadways Route 66 BUSTED
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2016, 06:12:31 pm »
Some back-of-the-envelope calculations:
An 'average' car tire at 2.6 bar has a surface contact with the road of about 0.015 m2, if we assume a car at 2 metric tons that equals 3.33 kg/cm^2 or 47.6 psi. (although these are dependent variables!)

funny, works out to be the air pressure in the tires?

It should be, obviously. Just took a minute to realize!
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Online jancumps

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Re: EEVblog #902 - Solar Roadways Route 66 BUSTED
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2016, 07:41:42 pm »
let the snow freeze into ice. Now you have one slippery road.

Even with ordinary rain you'll still be driving on wet glass.

That doesn't sound like a very safe thing to do.

I think that's why half of their promo material shows a tile with the word 'SLOW' :)
(See also the thumbnail od Dave's video above)
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #902 - Solar Roadways Route 66 BUSTED
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2016, 11:40:07 pm »
Some back-of-the-envelope calculations:
An 'average' car tire at 2.6 bar has a surface contact with the road of about 0.015 m2, if we assume a car at 2 metric tons that equals 3.33 kg/cm^2 or 47.6 psi. (although these are dependent variables!)

funny, works out to be the air pressure in the tires?

With a large margin of error.

The weight of the car is the same with over or under-inflated tires.

Even with zero pressure in the tires the car will still press down on the road(!)

No, I wouldn't like to go into the detailed math of that.
 
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Offline daqq

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Re: EEVblog #902 - Solar Roadways Route 66 BUSTED
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2016, 12:03:00 am »
Quote
There is nothing practical about this stupid solar roadway crap. How is it still around?  :palm:
It's simple - it sounds green, futuristic and nice to the public and it looks good on whatever list of what your local administration did. Since the general public has a scientific knowledge comparable to a turnip and (local) politicians and administration have effectively no accountability they will easily get away with it and any naysayers (yes Dave, I mean you) will be labeled as bad people payed by the tarmac industry...

From a point of view that doesn't really want results but rather wants to brag about initiatives it started it's ideal - any problems can get blamed on the supplier (whom obviously does not give one quarter of a crap) and the initiator can claim that they tried vigorously to try to bring cutting edge technology to your city.

Add to that all sorts of back room deals and you've got an ideal project.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 12:05:45 am by daqq »
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Offline German_EE

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Re: EEVblog #902 - Solar Roadways Route 66 BUSTED
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2016, 06:36:44 am »
You've got to love the Health and Safety culture in the USA. There's the woman from the Highways Department being interviewed in the car park of the visitor center and she's still wearing her hard hat, safety glasses and high visibility jacket.  :palm:

Them American car parks must be damn dangerous places!
Should you find yourself in a chronically leaking boat, energy devoted to changing vessels is likely to be more productive than energy devoted to patching leaks.

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Offline LabSpokane

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Re: EEVblog #902 - Solar Roadways Route 66 BUSTED
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2016, 08:17:46 am »
Route 66 goes thru the dessert at many stretches (I'm not 100% on that, I'm no master in the US infrastructure), wouldn't it be better to build a quality solar array with the same amount of m² in the dessert, and keep all the converters, monitoring and other supporting systems in one place. Easier for everyone that way.

We already have multiple, huge solar plants in the desert right now with more construction and expansion planned. It's what any intelligent person who could read an insolation map would do. Many banks and investment firms will readily finance these projects.

No one - besides governments - will finance solar roads.
 

Offline timb

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EEVblog #902 - Solar Roadways Route 66 BUSTED
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2016, 08:23:11 am »
You've got to love the Health and Safety culture in the USA. There's the woman from the Highways Department being interviewed in the car park of the visitor center and she's still wearing her hard hat, safety glasses and high visibility jacket.  :palm:

Them American car parks must be damn dangerous places!

Apparently British train crossings are as well!



Think! Always wear a High Visibility Jacket!
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #902 - Solar Roadways Route 66 BUSTED
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2016, 08:38:21 am »
No one - besides governments - will finance solar roads.

And a gullible technically illiterate public
 


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