EEVBlog2 - Tesla Model S - Australian Test Drive

[eneuro]

Here's a look at the Model S drive inverter and motor, from none other than Tesla themselves:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/34964-Tesla-Owner-Event-during-Monterey-car-week-and-a-new-line-of-Tesla-leather-goods

Nice to see this Tesla 3 phase 4 pole AC motor stator and its inverter with some specs 
I looks very powerfull and it is 

However, In this class of car I would expect not this big touchscreen in the middle of the car, but rather some kind of HUDs with a few quick buttons on steering wheel like in fighter airplanes or F1 racing cars, so no need to move your eyes from windscreen and still be able to adjust some car parameters when needed as well as display navigation tips, while voice navs even with its artificial voice commands is very unpleasant to hear for a long time and sometimes simply compass is fine to find yourself and better remember street maps.

This Garmin HUD looks a litle bit crappy and need to glue additional sheet of transparent plastic, by while Tesla knows exactly geometry of his car windscreen, they could simply implement some kind of custom projector with nice green light reflected from windscreen and integrated with steering wheel buttons and it could be really cool 

This is what I want to have in my future electric car-some kind of HUD it does not matter if it will have not to high resolution.
It looks like it is not such difficult thing to develop something like this using even basic MPU and rotating RGB diodes for example 

My next car will be fully electric for that reason.

Maybe there will be no other cars than electric one soon 
Rockefellers to switch investments to 'clean energy'

"Heirs to the Rockefeller family, which made its vast fortune from oil, are to sell investments in fossil fuels and reinvest in clean energy, reports say."

[Frost]

What is does not do is detect the windscreen misting up.

You can oder these feature for the 5er and 7er series
from BMW for over 10 years now.
In german it's called "Beschlagsensor" -> "misting sensor"
What I really miss are automatic infinitely adjustable
sun shields integrated in the windscreen.

[eneuro]

In very cold weather, there is no regen braking (below 0C) as there is no safe way to charge a li-ion battery below freezing.

So, Li-on battery is used?  Is it safe have this car in underground garage or special kind of insurance covers it?
How this car doesn't change into fireball during charging or regenerative brakeing?  Probably, there were no way to fight with such Li-on fire in the case of accident

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/safety_of_lithium_ion_batteries

"Made by Panasonic, the cell is rated at 3,100mAh, a specific energy that is slightly higher than most contenders. Other advantages of the NCA are high specific power for exuberant acceleration and long life. The negatives are high cost and a lower safety margin than other Li-ion systems."

Tesla haven't got any load resistor capability either; it would be nice if it could dump the power into a resistor, so it maintained the same feeling, even when regen is unavailable.

Was prety sure that in Tesla, this not used regen energy is converted just into heat and used to maintain interior car or battery temperature at optimum level, while this was one of the first requirements in my HPEV project-using dump loads to limit regenerative brakeing currents to battery longlife safe levels and as part of battery overvoltage protection   

However, this battery swap trick in pitstop quite nity.
http://www.teslamotors.com/batteryswap

"Full Charge in 90 Seconds"

 

It looks like sky and the money are the only limits.
How much such battery packs costs?
Is it posible to buy .. only Tesla battery eg. 10kWh pack? 

[Bud]

In the tesla you tell the car : i want 74 degrees and that's it. No fidgeting

I am sure I will do it with the knobs quicker than I say it.

It is my personal opinion/feeling that voice control in vehicles has no future.

[Bud]

[quote ]
In the video, " opening sunroof" . Fumbling through the touch screen or rolling through the steering wheel control menu to do a very simple operation.[/quote]

On a same note, in the video,  To say play me this or that song and then manually scroll through 500 results on the screen to select the version you want ?? Defeats the purpose of voice control. 

 

And the big screen lagged awfully when poor guy tried to demonstrate rotating/resizing the google map.  I am surprised someone mentioned Tegra 3 processor, if this was true it did pretty bad job. I had a Sony tablet with Tegra 2, it was lightning fast working with maps.

[NiHaoMike]

So, Li-on battery is used?  Is it safe have this car in underground garage or special kind of insurance covers it?
How this car doesn't change into fireball during charging or regenerative brakeing?  Probably, there were no way to fight with such Li-on fire in the case of accident

It's a special lithium chemistry that's less flammable than the common kind you see everywhere. Also, if anything, it would be safer to charge it in an underground garage since if a fire starts, it would quickly use up the oxygen and limit the extent of the damage.

[Lightages]

Until this happens, electric cars are as stupid as solar roadways.

Not for those who's lifestyle and circumstances suit them to a tea.
My next car will be fully electric for that reason.

A fully electric car meets the needs for my wife too. I live completely off the grid and have excess solar power once the batteries are charged. Exceptions do not disprove my general assertion.

For the majority of the world, with our balance of electrical generation, I stand by me assertion. The facts bare this out.

[tom66]

So, Li-on battery is used?  Is it safe have this car in underground garage or special kind of insurance covers it?
How this car doesn't change into fireball during charging or regenerative brakeing?  Probably, there were no way to fight with such Li-on fire in the case of accident

Standard Li-Ion NMC chemistry with all the standard risks of fire if crushed or overcharged. However, it's worth noting no Tesla vehicle has ever experienced a spontaneous battery fire. Tesla cool all the cells individually, and each cell is separately fused.

In the case of Tesla fires, it's due to collisions with debris and into walls that's causing some fires to occur, this is an inevitable risk of going to a skateboard platform with floor mounted batteries, but for all the benefits, I think it is worth the risk. Tesla increased the protection of the battery pack recently with a free retrofit.

Such fires are slow burning and the car provided several minutes notice in both instances that a battery fault was detected and drive power is cut off. No fires reached the passenger compartment. A petrol vehicle can become inflamed after a crash very rapidly if there is a fuel leak, or if various flammable fluids like gearbox oil/engine oil come into contact with hot engine parts.

Risks are different with EV - not necessarily better or worse.

[bookaboo]

I was all set to buy one of these based on the numbers Tesla and Musk gave, but it turned out they were bullshit and the real price is 4x as much. Needless to say I'm very disappointed.

They said it would cost $49,900 after incentives in the US. About $57,400  before. (For the 40kWh pack, or about 130 miles real world range)
It starts from $71,000 for the 60kWh pack, they axed the 40kWh model. Not as bad as 4x, but yeah, they missed their target by quite a bit. Less than 1% of their cars were shipped with 40kWh packs.

I just hope they can maintain the promised $35k for 200 mile car. I know that'll mean it will start from about £30,000 in the UK, but that puts it well into the range of many competitors. Hopefully, they also offer 300 miles range option.

I had no idea they were already looking at this price point, very interesting.

Given fuel prices in UK & Ireland and the way road tax is calculated it would be really interesting to bash out some numbers to see what the ROI is there. I could probably count on one hand the number of times either my wife or myself gone more than 200 miles in a single day in the car, as long as you plug it in nightly the range essentially becomes a non-issue. If you were going on a huge road trip once or twice a year then cost of hiring a "normal" vehicle isn't all that high.
I think what may end up being more critical is the total life-cycles of the battery and the replacement cost of the pack plus servicing costs.

At the minute the local solar fitting companies are running around offering to fit car charge ports for free, no strings at all they just turn up and install it for you. My dad got one fitted for no other reason that it's free! This is despite the fact the only electric vehicles I have ever seen or heard of around here are golf carts or childs toys!

[tom66]

Even better - Have a look at Tesla's official supercharger network plan for 2015 - this will be free of charge 120kW fast DC charging (charge 60kWh pack from 0% to 80% in under 50 minutes, or 0% to 50% in 20 minutes)



(expect some changes - but roughly said - you can travel anywhere in western Europe with minimal planning, so long as you can stop at a supercharger every 2.5 to 3 hours... it's going to be a little longer than a petrol car to "refuel", but it is free, and you rarely have to use the network, it's only for road-tripping.)

Larger batteries should last longer. Average commute is about 40 miles. Most times, the charging limit will be set to 85% (engage 100% if road-tripping, but use 85% for normal use.) This keeps the battery in its sweet spot from ~50% to ~90%. Lifetime could exceed 10 years to 70% capacity with this usage.

[bookaboo]

From their UK website the entry level S60 is £50,000, 8yr/125,000 mile battery and power pack warranty.

*Very very rough back of envelope calcs*
125,000 miles in a standard car @ 50mpg = 11,375 liters.
11,375 @ £1.35/l = £15,356

Assuming 100% charge efficiency (which there will not be)
125,000 miles in Tesla @ stated range of 240 miles from 60kWh (4 miles per kWh) = 31,250 kWh
31,250kWh @ £0.145 = £4531.25

A fuel saving of £10,824 under ideal conditions.
So really only 20% of the cost of the car, not enough to make the average focus or golf driver fork out the extra.
Unless the initial cost gets down under £30,000 mark and/or the depreciation is exceedingly low it's not going to interest me. I realise the current target market is the mid range bmw type user but that's not me, I just want A-B as economically as possible!

[_Sin]

Aren't those calculations assuming you're paying for all the 'leccy?  Surely if you're anywhere near a super-charger, some of that will be entirely free?

[tom66]

The knock-on effect, of course, having a £30k 200mi car will surely cause Nissan to drop the price of their Leaf below £15k. Nissan may begin offering a 150 mile battery pack on the next generation of Leaf.

As far as competition goes, I think Nissan is the only company Tesla has to worry about because they -might- beat Tesla to the promised ~200mi <£30k car.

Remember the Model S is more comparable to other sports sedans such as the Audi A6/A7, BMW 7 series, etc. Musk said something about Model 3 being close to BMW 3 series and Audi A4, which are about £30k~£50k. They generally don't get good MPG unless you get a diesel engine with one, but that sacrifices performance... Model 3 hopefully sub 6 seconds 0-60, and should offer AWD.

[bookaboo]

Aren't those calculations assuming you're paying for all the 'leccy?  Surely if you're anywhere near a super-charger, some of that will be entirely free?

Yeah, though I'd rarely be near one based on that map.
Dave's review does make you want to check out some of the features and it has a lot going for it (looks, power, safety etc.). But what I personally would be hoping for would be something that can almost pay for itself or at least contribute significantly to it's own outright purchase cost. I think Tesla probably have it right though, some people will be falling over themselves to buy at that price point so might as well have the cream first. Hopefully they get around to something soon for the Joe Bloggs Focus/Golf type market.

[free_electron]

[quote ]
In the video, " opening sunroof" . Fumbling through the touch screen or rolling through the steering wheel control menu to do a very simple operation.

On a same note, in the video,  To say play me this or that song and then manually scroll through 500 results on the screen to select the version you want ?? Defeats the purpose of voice control. 

 

And the big screen lagged awfully when poor guy tried to demonstrate rotating/resizing the google map.  I am surprised someone mentioned Tegra 3 processor, if this was true it did pretty bad job. I had a Sony tablet with Tegra 2, it was lightning fast working with maps.
[/quote]
He pulls songs from live streaming. That is why a list pops up with everything it finds on the cell network. ( they use rdio and slacker to stream)

Maps is slow for the same reason. Tesla does not cache the map data. Everything is streamed over the 3g link. Only the real gps map is stored but that is for the instrument cluster. The center console uses a live google maps coming in over the cell metwork.

[Towger]

Yeah, though I'd rarely be near one based on that map.

Over 1,500 public charging points according to the ESB: http://www.esb.ie/electric-cars/electric-car-charging/electric-car-charge-point-map.jsp

Wonder if they are compatible with the Telsa? However the ESB seems to think the Telsa is already available to buy here... . http://www.esb.ie/electric-cars/electric-car-driving/choice-of-electric-cars.jsp

[free_electron]

In the tesla you tell the car : i want 74 degrees and that's it. No fidgeting

I am sure I will do it with the knobs quicker than I say it.

It is my personal opinion/feeling that voice control in vehicles has no future.

Temperature setting i not under voice control. Simply tap up or down to set degrees. Just like home thermostat. The entire cabin is pretty much uniform. It just works.

I've driven mine for 9 months and 13+ k miles. Have touched the temperature setting maybe twice. It works really well. On a hot day (when car has been baking in the sun all day )  i take my cell phone touch 'airco on' befor i leave my desk at work or when paying the bill at restaurant. When i arrive at car it is perfectly comfortable.

The automatic systems work very well in this car.

As for the scaremongers worrying about the pack exploding: each cell has its own fuse. Each cell is also packed in an intumescent. Should a cell ignite it becomes self extinguishing before it can set fire to or damage its neighbours.
The only accidents have been cases where road debris penetrated the cell pack and caused massive mechanical damage to the entire pack. No spontaneous co bustion. Cells are thermally conditioned

[free_electron]

Yeah, though I'd rarely be near one based on that map.

Over 1,500 public charging points according to the ESB: http://www.esb.ie/electric-cars/electric-car-charging/electric-car-charge-point-map.jsp

Wonder if they are compatible with the Telsa? However the ESB seems to think the Telsa is already available to buy here... . http://www.esb.ie/electric-cars/electric-car-driving/choice-of-electric-cars.jsp

Yes they are. Tesla eats anything. The car comes with adapters for J1772 , standard household plug and high power plug . In US you can charge from 110 outlet or 220 outlet. There are a number of less commonly used outlet styles (in us) . Those adapters can be bought they are 40$ a piece. Keep charger cable and adapters in car and you are set. Only the chademo is expensive.

[tom66]

Each cell is also packed in an intumescent. Should a cell ignite it becomes self extinguishing before it can set fire to or damage its neighbours.

Think it's worth noting Tesla does not use intumescent material on the production vehicles.

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/34934-Pics-Info-Inside-the-battery-pack

Doesn't change the fact that the pack is inherently very safe. Spontaneous fires on properly designed EV batteries don't happen - cf. Nissan Leaf, Mits iMiEV, Tesla Roadster, and Model S.

[eneuro]

Risks are different with EV - not necessarily better or worse.

It is interesting how Tesla driver will deal with situation where he drives his car and fall into... 0.5 meter deep water  flooded valley at small speed (maybe with regen active so huge HV currents flowing to battery while he pushes brake probably before falling into water) with its 350V battery and active HV 3 phase motors? 
Classic car engine might simply stop working and its 12V starter battery is not dangerous but in the case of HV electric Tesla?
In custom converted electric car I can imagine some kind of sensors which will detect lower free space resistance or diffrent capacitance (in general water where should be air) and cut off power supply without any driver intervention.

Looking into options in Tesla touchscreen in this fatal case is not an option any more
HV is completly insulated in Tesla powertrain or it is low voltage battery inverted to HV 3 phase when engine needs power? How do they solved such scenarios when this car is half submerged in the water while its HV engines might still be active, or in some case should be else you will find yourself in the middle of this valley full of water? 

[SeanB]

Standard on automotive electronics is a really good hermetic seal, and I would guess Tesla has sealed both the battery pack, the connections to it, the inverter and the motor connections. It would have resulted in failure long ago if they were not sealed and protected internally with conformal coatings. That would just be from temperature cycling in daily use, and the fact that road dust is both corrosive and conductive, from all the lead compounds and the rubber and steel particles in it from car exhaust and tyre wear particles. Plus rain makes for a very effective power wash that pushes dirt and water in everywhere under the car.

If you have ever owned a Ford or even worse Landy, with the Lucas electrics ( Prince of darkness, and the inventor of the self dimming bulb and the intermittent wiper) and all the attendant problems as they aged ( or straight from the factory if you were unlucky) with connector problems.

[Kremmen]

Ahh, Lucas. Divine name  -  devilish gadgets.

[T3sl4co1l]

Elon....are you listening? Stop wasting your talent on consumer end use products and get on to the infrastructure!

He's deliberately expressed little interest in that.  In fact, all the patents pertaining to infrastructure are free* to use, so others are welcome to build it -- if they should ever want to, that is.

Tim

[SeanB]

Ahh, Lucas. Divine name  -  devilish gadgets.

No, you need to use Jaguar to really appreciate it. Lovely car, you need those 2 55l fuel tanks, and the electrics were the scrapings from the bottom of the bins of the stuff Ford rejected as too poor, not even good enough for a Landy.

Of course if you want horror you buy French............. Who else would place a circuit breaker in a place where there is a window to see if it has tripped, but to reset it you need to have an extra elbow about half way along the lower arm, and fingers of titanium with the ability to press with 300N of force to apply pressure to the tiny bit that you can reach, with guidance provided by somebody outside with a torch guiding your hand. An arm about 30mm diameter helps as well.

A way to make a whole crew unhappy " I need to change those 2 pitot lines, can you remove the nose". 3 days to remove, involving a crane and around 500 plugs and sockets being undone, and removal of panels and drilling out of the rivets holding them. Then I come there at the last minute, clip 2 wire lockings and undo 2 tubes. Then clip the next 2 wire lockings, remove the pipes and replace them, then redo the wire lockings on both ends. then " Thanks guys, my side is done, you can put it back on now" and vanish for 2 weeks while they do it and sign the paperwork for it. The only way we could get revenge for being called "Petrol pump attendants - put fuel in, polish the windows and clean the instruments". That and quietly stealing their packs of cigarettes and dunking them in LOX, then placing them back unnoticed. Light one within 10 minutes and it burns down in about 4 seconds.

[eneuro]

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/34934-Pics-Info-Inside-the-battery-pack

Doesn't change the fact that the pack is inherently very safe.

Unless you will have to play with this 85kWh 400VDC Tesla battery submerged in water in the case of accident 
It is interesting how is it protected from submerging in water, while they had to also make this thing easy to exchange if they were able replace it within 90s with another unit...

Trying to figure out if those ICs



images slightly "improoved" using image processing tools to get those numbers more visible  from link above here Tesla BMS front are some common ICs used in BMSes or custom Tesla's?

BTW: Those BMS module images are in such high resolution & quality that probably we'll have China electric car Chesla soon