New Agilent scopes

[tinhead]

not exactly, for bw update you have to send the DSO to Agilent service because they will have to replace the mainboard :

http://www.elektroniknet.de/messen-testen/produkte/messgeraete/article/75424/1/Mehr_Scope_fuer_weniger_Geld/

So "only" MSO, WaveGen and soft modules can be enabled by code/hack.

I'm pretty certain that's not correct. I was lead to believe the bandwidth was upgradeable via license.

Dave.

the information comes from Agilent European Product Line Manager but of course maybe
he misunderstood something or was misunderstood by the press ppl.

[saturation]

Incredible review; as always Dave definitely has an eye for camera, presentation, content and wit.  I watched it at high speed, so now will have to rewatch it to get the details.  Highly recommended.

[mzacharias]

Incredible review; as always Dave definitely has an eye for camera, presentation, content and wit.  I watched it at high speed, so now will have to rewatch it to get the details.  Highly recommended.

I agree. Maybe Dave's best review ever, really.

Mark Z.

[mikeselectricstuff]

not exactly, for bw update you have to send the DSO to Agilent service because they will have to replace the mainboard :

http://www.elektroniknet.de/messen-testen/produkte/messgeraete/article/75424/1/Mehr_Scope_fuer_weniger_Geld/

So "only" MSO, WaveGen and soft modules can be enabled by code/hack.

I'm pretty certain that's not correct. I was lead to believe the bandwidth was upgradeable via license.

Dave.

I spent quite a while looking through the Agilent site, and I think it is a return-to-base upgrade as nowhere does it state otherwise.
For example
Segmented memory upgrade shown as available via distributors,
but Bandwidth upgrade from Agilent only.
 
The user manual also makes no mention of bandwidth upgrades.

A quick way to check Dave - somewhere in the service menu there is probably a list of installed licenses - see if  there is a bandwidth license shown in there.

Another possibility  is that they haven't yet decided - maybe they can make all 2000 scopes as 200MHz and cripple them, but at a higher build cost, and are waiting to see the sales breakdown to decide which way to go. Or it could even be that they are waiting to see the yield on the silicon to see if it's viable to make them all full bandwidth.

[firewalker]

Is WinCE an RTOS? Maybe they dropped VXWorks because the new chipset they are using. Powerful enough to make an RTOS unnecessary.

[jeremy]

A quick way to check Dave - somewhere in the service menu there is probably a list of installed licenses - see if  there is a bandwidth license shown in there.

It's in the video. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can tell us what the licenses refer to.

[the_raptor]

Wikipedia says WinCE is an RTOS.

[mikeselectricstuff]

A quick way to check Dave - somewhere in the service menu there is probably a list of installed licenses - see if  there is a bandwidth license shown in there.

It's in the video. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can tell us what the licenses refer to.

MSO mixed signal, SGM segmented memory, LMT mask/limit test, BW20 200MHz BW, WGN Waveform gen.

The vagueness on the Agilent site does seem to suggest there may be a little more to it though. Or maybe they just don't want to make it too obvious that the base model is crippleware.
 

[EEVblog]

Is WinCE an RTOS? Maybe they dropped VXWorks because the new chipset they are using. Powerful enough to make an RTOS unnecessary.

They don't need an RTOS because the processor isn't really doing much. All the important stuff is in the ASIC.

Dave.

[jeremy]

according to http://www.testequity.com/products/3763/, there are both MSO and DSO models. I imagine that changing the model number would not be a software toggle (although the rigols beg to differ ).

In the video, dave noticed that only 8 channels worth of hardware was soldered down, perhaps the DSO version has no ICs at all on the digital interface.

[mikeselectricstuff]

according to http://www.testequity.com/products/3763/, there are both MSO and DSO models. I imagine that changing the model number would not be a software toggle (although the rigols beg to differ ).

In the video, dave noticed that only 8 channels worth of hardware was soldered down, perhaps the DSO version has no ICs at all on the digital interface.

The user manual p.258 states it's a license upgrade - the MSO hardware looks like minimal cost on this one - just some comparators - the older 6000 series used ASICs for the MSO function - looks like this has been integrated into the other chipset on the new ones.  

BTW spotted UK list pricing on Aspen's site :
http://www.aspen-electronics.com/page.asp?page=2000X-Oscilloscope
http://www.aspen-electronics.com/page.asp?page=3000X-Oscilloscope

[jeremy]

BTW spotted UK list pricing on Aspen's site :
http://www.aspen-electronics.com/page.asp?page=2000X-Oscilloscope
http://www.aspen-electronics.com/page.asp?page=3000X-Oscilloscope

and from that supplier: "Get more investment protection with the industry’s only fully upgradeable scope, including bandwidth!!"

Dave, feel like giving your Agilent contact a call for us all ? 

[mikeselectricstuff]

Is WinCE an RTOS? Maybe they dropped VXWorks because the new chipset they are using. Powerful enough to make an RTOS unnecessary.

They don't need an RTOS because the processor isn't really doing much. All the important stuff is in the ASIC.

Dave.

[firewalker]

Is WinCE an RTOS? Maybe they dropped VXWorks because the new chipset they are using. Powerful enough to make an RTOS unnecessary.

They don't need an RTOS because the processor isn't really doing much. All the important stuff is in the ASIC.

Dave.

Is anything known about those ASICs? Architecture, die size, nanometers etc.

[jeremy]

Is WinCE an RTOS? Maybe they dropped VXWorks because the new chipset they are using. Powerful enough to make an RTOS unnecessary.

They don't need an RTOS because the processor isn't really doing much. All the important stuff is in the ASIC.

Dave.

Is anything known about those ASICs? Architecture, die size, nanometers etc.

90nm, ~6M gates. http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4213152/Agilent-uses-new-ASIC-in-MSO-market-attack

[Bored@Work]

probably Rigol ppl are a bit pissed off now - the former "partner" Agilent fooled them.

Rigol also got a lot out of that old deal. The Agilent deal was what distinguished them from all the other Chinese T&M manufacturers. It put Rigol on the map "If they are good enough for Agilent they are maybe good enough for me, too.".

[EEVblog]

BTW spotted UK list pricing on Aspen's site :
http://www.aspen-electronics.com/page.asp?page=2000X-Oscilloscope
http://www.aspen-electronics.com/page.asp?page=3000X-Oscilloscope

and from that supplier: "Get more investment protection with the industry’s only fully upgradeable scope, including bandwidth!!"

Dave, feel like giving your Agilent contact a call for us all ?  

I don't know what all the speculation is about, there is no mystery.
The base model unit comes with the waveform gen, the logic analyzer, and the 200MHz built-in. They are enabled by software license keys you get when you buy the option from the Agilent website or dealer. They are advertising this to the hilt and are not trying to hide it.
Agilent have assured me of this.
In the case of the logic analyser they will ship you the probes when you buy that option, along with the code to enabled it.

The only difference which I didn't now about when shooting the video was that the 2 channel version is actually only 2 channels and can't be upgraded unless they actually swapped the board, which I'm reasonably certain is not an option.

I am not sure how the enable code system works, I just know that you are given a code when you buy the option and you enable it yourself.

Dave.

[tesla500]

A few tidbits:

On the teardown video, I notice test points for VP1V4_TALON and VP3V3D_TALON. We had a 6000 series scope fail at work, giving an error code about failing Talon autocalibration. Perhaps Talon is an internal codename for the ASIC. (The scope was just a week or two out of warranty, and luckily Agilent agreed to cover the repair (new mainboard), which would have cost probably $5k or more!)

The lack of a hardware frequency counter seems to coincide with the lack of equivalent time sampling. The frequency counter works by looking at the output of the trigger comparator, not the ADC result. The problem with not having equivalent time sampling is trigger jitter. If you measure a fast risetime signal (a risetime of perhaps a few sample periods), it will appear to jump around somewhat, +/- 1/2 the sample period. This is because the scope can only trigger on the sampling clock, whereas in real life the time the signal crosses the trigger threshold can be between sample clocks. Equivalent time sampling basically tells the scope what phase the sample clock is relative to the trigger, with extremely high accuracy, in the tens of picoseconds range. The display system must then shift all the sampled points by this amount. This removes the +/- 1/2 sample period jitter. If you're making high speed jitter measurements this is critical. The Tek 4000 series scopes lack equivalent time sampling too, but those those are high end, the base model is $10k!!

The internal function generator must be Arb capable, many of the demo waveforms require it.

David

[mikeselectricstuff]

The lack of a hardware frequency counter seems to coincide with the lack of equivalent time sampling.

The 3000 series does have a hardware counter - may be worth a look through the user manual to see if there is a difference in sampling.

[Lance]

That's good to know. I also find it amusing how the scope he had for review failed. Ah well, that's the tech world. Stuff happens.

[mikeselectricstuff]

there is no mystery.
The base model unit comes with the waveform gen, the logic analyzer, and the 200MHz built-in. They are enabled by software license keys you get when you buy the option from the Agilent website or dealer. They are advertising this to the hilt and are not trying to hide it.
Agilent have assured me of this.

If not mystery there does still seem to be a little doubt & confusion - unlike other upgrades, I have found nothing on the Agilent site or the user manuals that explicitly says BW is just a license upgrade, and the BW upgrades are listed as via Agilent only, unlike the other license upgrades. It could just be some internal confusion or mis-communication. Another possibility might be that BW change requires recalibration, or they've not yet tested sufficiently to be sure that it doesn't. Or they've not decided if it's worth the time to calibrate at all bandwidths in production to allow the right data to be used if it gets subsequently upgraded.

[Wim_L]

but for someone having at least 1k USD budget
the new Agilent is definitely the best choice from all DSOs up to 5k USD.

I'd have to concur with that. It seems Agilent have really sewn up that market segment. Until the others try and pip them.
Tektronix have a 40% off sale right now!
http://conversation.fuseinsight.com/topic/serv/tW5wHvYYQZ0UtF1yFB-klXw8wNhQ2oKCmS08KNeZFpielX8_ZpA1iuXwahgWTdH5sqvgvHopiPhSuKw83O2a-k45CIT6YbUTzZf6LW9n_go./html/intro

Ah, Tektronix. Makes you wonder what they're thinking, 2.5k points per channel? That low end series is way overdue for an update. They're also still offering the TDS 3000 series even though the DPO 3000 seems to offer superior performance at very similar prices. No experience with the DPO here, but the TDS 3000 with its mere 10k points, while certainly a usable scope, did seem a bit of a sluggish performer at times. In fact, I tended to prefer the older analog 2467B over the DSO3000, unless I specifically needed storage.

At this time, the only thing the TDS 1000/2000 series seems to have in its favour are the lack of an annoying fan (very common among other scopes), and a big discount.

[alm]

Ah, Tektronix. Makes you wonder what they're thinking, 2.5k points per channel? That low end series is way overdue for an update. They're also still offering the TDS 3000 series even though the DPO 3000 seems to offer superior performance at very similar prices. No experience with the DPO here, but the TDS 3000 with its mere 10k points, while certainly a usable scope, did seem a bit of a sluggish performer at times. In fact, I tended to prefer the older analog 2467B over the DSO3000, unless I specifically needed storage.

Indeed, they often introduce a competitive design, and then keep rehashing it by introducing -B and -C revisions with no significant changes. I believe it was the same with the TDS700 series. The TDS3000 series was very successful when it was introduced in late nineties or so (one of the first DSO to offer variable persistence and thousands of waveforms per second, i.e. closer to an analog scope). But the new revisions since then have added a USB connector and an external trigger output, plus some software features if I remember correctly. No changes to core specs at all.

[EEVblog]

Will be interesting to see if Tek bring out a new range of scopes to match Agilent, given the recent 40% off fire sale.
No, I'm not "in the know" there, sorry!

Dave.

[Zad]

I was dubious about Agilent's claim that they were "game changing" scopes. After thinking about it though, I think they are right, but possibly not for the reasons they thought. Perhaps it is an effect of the weak Pound Sterling versus the Dollar / Yen, or perhaps I have just had my nose in the 2nd hand market for too long, but for what it does, it does seem still pretty expensive. Sure, there are some stunning features. Features that people doing specific jobs may use once a year, but when you look at the core 100MHz dual trace scope, and look at what you actually use a scope for, then I can't see people queued up outside their local representative's door.

But I said it was a game changer? Absolutely. Here is a short story: In the book "The Zen of Graphics", Mike Abrash tells of how he worked with a guy who developed PC video card hardware. This was still comparatively early days, with no 3D and only a small amount of hardware acceleration. This guy had gone as far as he thought he could with the transistor count available to him on the custom silicon, but one day he heard that their competitor had added a command buffer. Now, our hero thought about what this meant, and he knew it had the possibility to free the CPU up from a wait loop, and had the potential to be a product killer, making his product look slow and outdated even before it had shipped. He knew he couldn't compete with that, he had only a couple of dozen gates spare at most, but he put in a very crude double register, which would help, but he was afraid that his competitor's hardware was going to absolutely murder them. As it turned out, the competitor's product was nothing of the sort, and our hero's product was vastly superior. All because he believed that someone else had done a better job with the same resources that he had.

I think people like Rigol are going to look at this scope and think "crikey, this isn't that far in front of where we actually are now". Big LCDs are cheap, as are FPGAs, and fast and wide ADCs are getting cheaper by the day. Add some free Linux, and they could have 90% of the scope for 25% of the price. If I were an engineer in one of these companies now, I'd be rubbing my hands at the way the market had just moved.