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Offline tesla500

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #75 on: February 22, 2011, 08:07:32 am »
Re. the master/slave thing - the slave MegaZoom ASIC is clearly handing the additional acquisition width for the extra channels, with the master still handling triggering etc., hence the diff traces on the underside going to all 4 channels. My guess is the two display buffers are overlaid  to combine the fast-update data - can't think how else this could be done.
Like the 2000, there seem to be two sets of diff traces from each channel on the PCB underside - my guess  is there are fast comparators in the cans, with 2 seperate programmable thresholds, one for trigger & one for time measurements?

If I recall correctly, the 6000 series, and presumably the 3000, have advanced trigger modes that allow for in or out of range triggers. Maye that's what the 2 trigger lines per channel are for? I'll check tomorrow and see if it does infarct have this mode.

An interesting difference on the 3000 is the extra DRAM chip near each ASIC. According to Micron's Part number decoder, D9JLR is a MT47H32M16HR-3:F 8Mx16 DDR2 SDRAM, which is where the larger memory depth is clearly occurring.

That RAM couldn't possibly be for the main acquisition memory, that chip has a maximum bandwidth of 800MT/sec * 2 bytes/16bits = 1.6GB/sec, much less than the 4GB/sec coming from the ADC feeding the ASIC. My bet is that RAM is part of the display generator and/or GUI framebuffer. I think the 2000 had the DRAM next to the ASIC as well.

Re. the function gen and lack of ARB, I wonder if 'mask' on that ASIC drawing could be maskrom for wave data rather than mask test..? Mask ROM would certainly use less silicon than dedicated ARB RAM.

I'm thinking mask refers to the mask limit testing, which would have to be hardware accelerated to test 1M waveforms per second!

David
 

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #76 on: February 22, 2011, 08:13:31 am »
A few comments on the 3000 teardown

The ASICs nearest the BNCs are clearly the ADCs - could be that they use the same ADC on the 2000, multiplexed 4 ways, and two ways on the 3000 for the full bandwidth.

Yes, it is the ADC, same on both series but muxed as you say on the 3000. The 3000 has double to sample rate of the 2000, so that's why it needs two ADC chips (and two Magazooms)
I just found out today the ADC chip is fully Agilent custom designed as well.

Quote
Re. the master/slave thing - the slave MegaZoom ASIC is clearly handing the additional acquisition width for the extra channels, with the master still handling triggering etc., hence the diff traces on the underside going to all 4 channels. My guess is the two display buffers are overlaid  to combine the fast-update data - can't think how else this could be done.
Like the 2000, there seem to be two sets of diff traces from each channel on the PCB underside - my guess  is there are fast comparators in the cans, with 2 seperate programmable thresholds, one for trigger & one for time measurements?

I have a photo of an Agilent branded chip under the can.

The 3000 front end is actually two different types. The 350MHz/500MHz option is a totally different front end to the lower model. So if you buy a lower bandwidth model and buy the "upgrade" then the unit must be shipped back to Agilent and they replace the board.
This is NOT the case on the 2000 model though.

BTW, I also found out the Megazoom IV ASIC is the brainchild one one guy at Agilent, one Matt Holkom(sp?)

Quote
My guess is the 2-channel version will only have the master channel populated.

You would guess so.

Quote
An interesting difference on the 3000 is the extra DRAM chip near each ASIC. According to Micron's Part number decoder, D9JLR is a MT47H32M16HR-3:F 8Mx16 DDR2 SDRAM, which is where the larger memory depth is clearly occurring.

All data and people I have spoken to indicate that the sample memory is entirely internal to the Megazoom.
I don't know what this external memory does though.

Quote
Re. the function gen and lack of ARB, I wonder if 'mask' on that ASIC drawing could be maskrom for wave data rather than mask test..? Mask ROM would certainly use less silicon than dedicated ARB RAM.

Any chance of some high-res pics soon so we can do some further digging...?

Sure, just have to get them up.

Dave.
 

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #77 on: February 22, 2011, 08:15:06 am »
An interesting difference on the 3000 is the extra DRAM chip near each ASIC. According to Micron's Part number decoder, D9JLR is a MT47H32M16HR-3:F 8Mx16 DDR2 SDRAM, which is where the larger memory depth is clearly occurring.

That RAM couldn't possibly be for the main acquisition memory, that chip has a maximum bandwidth of 800MT/sec * 2 bytes/16bits = 1.6GB/sec, much less than the 4GB/sec coming from the ADC feeding the ASIC. My bet is that RAM is part of the display generator and/or GUI framebuffer. I think the 2000 had the DRAM next to the ASIC as well.

Re. the function gen and lack of ARB, I wonder if 'mask' on that ASIC drawing could be maskrom for wave data rather than mask test..? Mask ROM would certainly use less silicon than dedicated ARB RAM.

I'm thinking mask refers to the mask limit testing, which would have to be hardware accelerated to test 1M waveforms per second!

Yes, it's the mask testing function.

Dave.
 

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #78 on: February 22, 2011, 08:28:29 am »
However, your diplomatic way of saying its faults tempered my enthusiasm.  It does have more virtues than faults.  If I were a pro EE, I could amortize the cost of equipment, but for home labs, this is sadly, overkill.  The Rigol or Tekway is bang for buck for home labs.

Depends on how you value bang-per-buck.
The Agilent has 50-100 times the update performance of a Rigol  (plus other things) for 3 times the price. Your call on what's important to you.

Quote
Function generator: based on the spec and capabilities, it isn't good value for $400+ they want for it.

Depends. For those who want convenience and basic waveform generation then it's well worth it. Otherwise a Rigol arb gen beats it for bang-per-buck.
It was designed for the educational market in which they will make an absolute killing.
I just found out that educational customers get the Gen for free + the training signals + 15% discount.

Quote
LAN card: useful, and its desktop software fantastic, but very pricey.
Digital Probes: pricey, but if you need them, you need them.

Once again, entirely subjective. Just usual Agilent pricing for such things.

Quote
Unused buttons on your model: only activated with the updated models? you now have 'useless' buttons on a face.  Its probably better to provide covers for them.

I found out these were left in deliberately "just in case" competitors bring out competing models, then Agilent can simply enable that functionality in software, no design change needed to meet new markets.

Dave.
 

Offline McPete

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #79 on: February 22, 2011, 09:34:13 am »
I'm intrigued by the "education market" pitch- Every university and college I've looked at is either using WunhungLo style DSOs or ancient Trio/University scopes. I wouldn't have thought many educators trying to fit out a lab for students would splash out on test equipment.

Do many educators really fit out their labs with this grade of gear, or have I just been going to the wrong institutions?
 

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #80 on: February 22, 2011, 10:03:29 am »
I'm intrigued by the "education market" pitch- Every university and college I've looked at is either using WunhungLo style DSOs or ancient Trio/University scopes. I wouldn't have thought many educators trying to fit out a lab for students would splash out on test equipment.

Do many educators really fit out their labs with this grade of gear, or have I just been going to the wrong institutions?

I don't know, it's been too many decades since I was in a school lab.
But Agilent in a presentation I went too today said the scope was aimed at the education market from day 1, and they know what they are doing.
It drove a lot of the requirements. Like the big screen so multiple students could see, the entry level 70MHz version (training labs don't need bandwidth), the sig gen which was needed to generate the training signals, and the making of elaborate student training manuals to go along with it.
The training material supplied by Agilent is the killer, and schools will lap it up. For schools, the gear is not much use unless you have developed training material to go along with it, and that's a big task schools would rather not do. If Agilent provide that then schools will lap it up, and Agilent are pretty sure they will sell squillions of these to schools.

Dave.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #81 on: February 22, 2011, 10:24:17 am »

An interesting difference on the 3000 is the extra DRAM chip near each ASIC. According to Micron's Part number decoder, D9JLR is a MT47H32M16HR-3:F 8Mx16 DDR2 SDRAM, which is where the larger memory depth is clearly occurring.

That RAM couldn't possibly be for the main acquisition memory, that chip has a maximum bandwidth of 800MT/sec * 2 bytes/16bits = 1.6GB/sec, much less than the 4GB/sec coming from the ADC feeding the ASIC. My bet is that RAM is part of the display generator and/or GUI framebuffer. I think the 2000 had the DRAM next to the ASIC as well.
I thought that but it was late & only about a factor of two out, so I didn't raise the data rate issue. I looked again at the 2000 vid - it does have a RAM chip but a different Samsung one that I can't quite read the number of.
I've not looked in detail at the SDRAM datasheet, but it's possible that for long burst writes, the transfer rate may be a bit greater than the transfers/sec figure quoted - the raw rate from the SDRAM clock is 1.3GT/s but I'm no sure if this SDRAM supports full-page bursts that would approach this rate.
I wouldn't rule  out this being the acquisition memory though as the transfer rate is not a zillion miles out - 4M is an awful lot of RAM to include on an ASIC, and there may be some scope for compression. Without looking in detail at how the sample rate changes in different modes it's hard to tell - the user manual doesn't give much info.
I don't think it could be the display RAM, as for the  intensity display, it needs to do a read/modify/write at the incoming data rate, so the bandwidth requirement is higher, and also would not change with acquisition memory depth. 
Quote
I'm thinking mask refers to the mask limit testing, which would have to be hardware accelerated to test 1M waveforms per second!

Yes, but due to the display architecture, all it needs to do is detect whether pixels are plotted at specific display co-ordinates, so it's only a fairly small addition to the existing display hardware.

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Offline mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #82 on: February 22, 2011, 01:38:28 pm »
Quote
BTW, I also found out the Megazoom IV ASIC is the brainchild one one guy at Agilent, one Matt Holkom(sp?)
There is a Matt Holcomb listed in the credits list on the 6000 Easter Egg (press the unused function key in the service manu 4 times).
When you fire up the 3000 Dave, see if you can find a hidden feature - unused function keys in the service or utility menus seem a popular choice for Scope easter eggs
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Offline saturation

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #83 on: February 22, 2011, 02:17:24 pm »
Yes, as you emphasized one key issue for 3x the price is the wfms/s rate.  Your estimate for the 1052E on the video was 800 wfms/s vs Agilent's 50,000, that's over 60x faster.  

On your lead I perused Agilent's education offer:

http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=2005946&nid=-536902447.0.00&id=2005946

This means the scope+FG ~ $1100, before taxes and delivery charges.  Given no scope has this wfms/s rate for this price,  one just needs to quantify how much this means to your work.

All other items you demo'd can all be helpful, one just has to have labor to be saved by these features to justify the cost.  

as for unused keys ... so they can provide the license code for discounts to free in the future, as competition heats up or the technology ages, without a new product to redesign is nice.  You often don't see devices with dead or reserved keys on purpose, and it can be distracting.  You can get used to it or put a sticker on it to blend in with the casing color.  




Depends on how you value bang-per-buck.
The Agilent has 50-100 times the update performance of a Rigol  (plus other things) for 3 times the price. Your call on what's important to you.

Quote
Function generator: based on the spec and capabilities, it isn't good value for $400+ they want for it.

Depends. For those who want convenience and basic waveform generation then it's well worth it. Otherwise a Rigol arb gen beats it for bang-per-buck.
It was designed for the educational market in which they will make an absolute killing.
I just found out that educational customers get the Gen for free + the training signals + 15% discount.

Quote
LAN card: useful, and its desktop software fantastic, but very pricey.
Digital Probes: pricey, but if you need them, you need them.

Once again, entirely subjective. Just usual Agilent pricing for such things.

Quote
Unused buttons on your model: only activated with the updated models? you now have 'useless' buttons on a face.  Its probably better to provide covers for them.

I found out these were left in deliberately "just in case" competitors bring out competing models, then Agilent can simply enable that functionality in software, no design change needed to meet new markets.

Dave.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 05:46:14 pm by saturation »
Best Wishes,

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Offline Ferroto

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #84 on: February 22, 2011, 02:45:57 pm »
So... How long until someone cracks the firmware to unlock all the features.  8)
 

Offline PetrosA

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #85 on: February 22, 2011, 02:55:20 pm »
So... How long until someone cracks the firmware to unlock all the features.  8)

I wonder if the fact that they're using a Microsoft OS will have any bearing on how hacking the OS will be treated - will it be Agilent that chases after the "hacker" or MS who chases the "pirate?" Either way, they both have big legal guns compared to Rigol.
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Offline Hypernova

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #86 on: February 22, 2011, 04:04:59 pm »
I'm intrigued by the "education market" pitch- Every university and college I've looked at is either using WunhungLo style DSOs or ancient Trio/University scopes. I wouldn't have thought many educators trying to fit out a lab for students would splash out on test equipment.

Do many educators really fit out their labs with this grade of gear, or have I just been going to the wrong institutions?

Both uni's (Auckland and Queensland) I went use agilint and tek scopes in the labs.
 

Offline Zad

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #87 on: February 22, 2011, 10:16:24 pm »
Dave, did you try your analogue scope on the signal generator output with glitch turned on? I'm just curious to see if a good old analogue scope could detect a glitch that a budget DSO couldn't.

Offline johnboxall

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #88 on: February 23, 2011, 12:14:12 am »
I'm intrigued by the "education market" pitch- Every university and college I've looked at is either using WunhungLo style DSOs or ancient Trio/University scopes. I wouldn't have thought many educators trying to fit out a lab for students would splash out on test equipment.

Do many educators really fit out their labs with this grade of gear, or have I just been going to the wrong institutions?

I don't know, it's been too many decades since I was in a school lab.
But Agilent in a presentation I went too today said the scope was aimed at the education market from day 1, and they know what they are doing.
It drove a lot of the requirements. Like the big screen so multiple students could see, the entry level 70MHz version (training labs don't need bandwidth), the sig gen which was needed to generate the training signals, and the making of elaborate student training manuals to go along with it.
The training material supplied by Agilent is the killer, and schools will lap it up. For schools, the gear is not much use unless you have developed training material to go along with it, and that's a big task schools would rather not do. If Agilent provide that then schools will lap it up, and Agilent are pretty sure they will sell squillions of these to schools.

Dave.

Don't forget the VGA output module - a great idea. Now lecturers can show the use of the 'scope in a lecture theatre to a couple of hundred people, instead of having 30 students huddle around a bench in a lab.

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #89 on: February 23, 2011, 09:01:02 am »
Quote
BTW, I also found out the Megazoom IV ASIC is the brainchild one one guy at Agilent, one Matt Holkom(sp?)
There is a Matt Holcomb listed in the credits list on the 6000 Easter Egg (press the unused function key in the service manu 4 times).
When you fire up the 3000 Dave, see if you can find a hidden feature - unused function keys in the service or utility menus seem a popular choice for Scope easter eggs

No joy on the 2000 series.
EDIT: Oops, spoke too soon, found it!
A rather neat animation of the names.
I'll have to post a quick video.

Dave.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 11:51:17 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline Wim_L

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #90 on: February 23, 2011, 03:22:51 pm »
Dave, did you try your analogue scope on the signal generator output with glitch turned on? I'm just curious to see if a good old analogue scope could detect a glitch that a budget DSO couldn't.

Depends on the CRT used, and the timebase. As someone mentioned a microchannel CRT, on those, the answer is most likely yes. I've used such scopes (Tek 2467B to be specific), and they would give a visible trace in single shot mode, at the fastest timebase setting (500ps/div IIRC). For normal oscilloscopes, it depends on the tube brightness. Just see how fast you can make the horizontal sweep go before the trace becomes hard to see even in a dark room. I'm not sure if true microchannel tube oscilloscopes are even made anymore, though Iwatsu seems to have an analog/digital hybrid CRT that would have all the advantages plus storage on its high end analog scopes.

If you would notice a rare glitch on a signal that is normal most of the time is a diferent matter, because you'd be observing with the intensity turned up high. The great brilliance of the normal trace would make it harder to observe the much fainter trace of a rare glitch. Such use also tends to cause increased wear on the CRT screen. Add to that the fact that steep edges are very faint on analog scopes, and the odds don't look so good anymore unless sweep speeds are fairly low.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #91 on: February 23, 2011, 05:09:28 pm »
Quote
BTW, I also found out the Megazoom IV ASIC is the brainchild one one guy at Agilent, one Matt Holkom(sp?)
There is a Matt Holcomb listed in the credits list on the 6000 Easter Egg (press the unused function key in the service manu 4 times).
When you fire up the 3000 Dave, see if you can find a hidden feature - unused function keys in the service or utility menus seem a popular choice for Scope easter eggs

No joy on the 2000 series.
EDIT: Oops, spoke too soon, found it!
A rather neat animation of the names.
I'll have to post a quick video.

Dave.

This is the MSO6000 one :
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Offline Nermash

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #92 on: February 28, 2011, 12:53:37 pm »
Wacky Germans strike back :)

http://www.hameg.com/0.618.0.html
 

Offline saturation

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #93 on: February 28, 2011, 03:19:00 pm »
That's surprisingly similar to the Agilent series.

Wacky Germans strike back :)

http://www.hameg.com/0.618.0.html
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Offline tinhead

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #94 on: February 28, 2011, 08:44:24 pm »
That's surprisingly similar to the Agilent series.

Wacky Germans strike back :)

http://www.hameg.com/0.618.0.html

enclosure a bit , but that's all ... state of the art german technology? not really, only up to 2000 wfms/s.
LeCroy would say "wfrm/s is not everything", sure but a bit disapointed.
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Offline Wim_L

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #95 on: February 28, 2011, 11:58:10 pm »
On the other hand, it does offer a cheaper path to getting a logic analyser with protocol decoding in there than the Agilent. And if bandwidth and budget is more important than update rate, you'd get to 350MHz cheaper with the Hameg line. (Faster than that, and you'd have to go to the Rohde & Schwarz brand instead of Hameg. Same company though, and those do have a good update rate. Probably not affordable, mind you.)

At the time when I was looking for an oscilloscope, I settled on a Hameg 1508-2. More expensive than similar bandwidth options from Tek, Rigol or Instek at the time, but a much better performer. The short sample memory of the low end teks (2.5k) scared me at the time, already having had experience with the TDS3000 series which, though having more (10k), were already prone to aliasing. And the 3000 was above the hobby budget already. Rigol, eliminated ater hearing the fan and seeing it at work (noisy signal! Though the TDS2000 series weren't much better). Didn't feel like getting a PC scope. What remained was a Voltcraft DSO-8104 (rebadged Instek GDS-2104). It seemed all right after talking with a representative. Unfortunately, they didn't tell me the truth. Said it was silent, while in reality it had a more annoying fan than the Rigol. Worse, its power supply was terrible. It showed regularly repeating bursts of strong EMI on all channels (close to 200mV pk-pk). Borrowed an analog scope from work to check where it came from, and the analog one started showing the same as soon as the Voltcraft one got turned on in the same room. So that one went back to the seller. There wasn't much left in the affordable categories at that point, so I ended up taking the Hameg, analog/digital combiscope. That one was initially defective (just a little thing), but got fixed quickly by the manufacturer and has served well so far. A very capable device, even if it cost more than what I initially intended to spend.

Agilent was not an option at the time (the affordable ones were Rigols), but if I were to be in the market for a new scope today, it would definitely be considered, but I wouldn't rule out the Hameg combiscopes either. I probably would not consider the new all-electronic Hamegs though, if I didn't already have analog on the HM1508-2. They might be better than any other cheap digital out there except the Agilent, but with the Agilent out there even that isn't good enough anymore... Unless protocol decoding is a killer feature for you I guess.
 

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #96 on: March 01, 2011, 02:50:47 am »
Wacky Germans strike back :)

http://www.hameg.com/0.618.0.html

Geeze, they must all really know what the others are up to!
Same 70-200MHz bandwidth, similar upgradability, paid options, serial decode etc.

And an old style component tester!

Dave.
 

Offline Chasm

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #97 on: March 01, 2011, 03:16:56 am »
(Faster than that, and you'd have to go to the Rohde & Schwarz brand instead of Hameg. Same company though, and those do have a good update rate. Probably not affordable, mind you.)

Figuring out Rohde&Schwarz pricing is dead easy, simply add another zero to whatever the highest priced competitor is charging.  ;D
Not really, but it surely can't be to far from the truth.


And an old style component tester!

Finally a killer feature no one else thought of! ;)
Probably more useful for many hobbyist users than the neutered function generator. Even the old analog Phillips function generator during my apprenticeship had more features than the Agilent option. At probably less cost, new.

Actually this is also kewl:
Quote
New is the option HOO11 which enable the analysis of these serial protocols on the analog channel. Even with the 2 channel instruments 3-wire buses such as SPI can be analyzed this way by making use of the external trigger input.(additional probe recommended) The HOO11 will be delivered with each HMO7xx, 10xx, 15xx, 20xx at no cost in the year of introduction.

->no cost<-
Free I2C, SPI, UART/RS-232 decoding, as long as you can make do with the analog channels (+trigger input). Take that Agilent. :D

Unfortunately no CAN, bugger.
 

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #98 on: March 01, 2011, 04:37:56 am »
Figuring out Rohde&Schwarz pricing is dead easy, simply add another zero to whatever the highest priced competitor is charging.  ;D
Not really, but it surely can't be to far from the truth.

Anyone got actual prices on the various options?

Quote
Finally a killer feature no one else thought of! ;)
Probably more useful for many hobbyist users than the neutered function generator. Even the old analog Phillips function generator during my apprenticeship had more features than the Agilent option. At probably less cost, new.

No way, I'd take the function gen any day of the week. It might be "neutered" but still incredibly useful.
Value for money is course moot. Educational people get it for free.

Quote
Actually this is also kewl:
Quote
New is the option HOO11 which enable the analysis of these serial protocols on the analog channel. Even with the 2 channel instruments 3-wire buses such as SPI can be analyzed this way by making use of the external trigger input.(additional probe recommended) The HOO11 will be delivered with each HMO7xx, 10xx, 15xx, 20xx at no cost in the year of introduction.

->no cost<-
Free I2C, SPI, UART/RS-232 decoding, as long as you can make do with the analog channels (+trigger input). Take that Agilent. :D

I assume it's actually free, and doesn't expire after a year ;D
Yeah, great option not available on the Agilent 2000 series. Although that magic button is there on the front panel, just waiting for Agilent to respond to market forces...

Dave.
 

Offline Chasm

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #99 on: March 01, 2011, 08:50:13 pm »
Anyone got actual prices on the various options?

Not yet. It should not take much more time.


No way, I'd take the function gen any day of the week. It might be "neutered" but still incredibly useful.
Value for money is course moot. Educational people get it for free.

Just pulling your leg. ;)
Maybe because IIRC it did not even have an offset.


I assume it's actually free, and doesn't expire after a year ;D
Yeah, great option not available on the Agilent 2000 series. Although that magic button is there on the front panel, just waiting for Agilent to respond to market forces...

I think it is a very nice idea because the analog channels have much more possibilities than logic analyzer inputs.
Not only because they are already there but you should be able to do all kinds of automated fault and glitch capturing with them if the scope knows the protocol that goes beyond the capabilities of "normal" logic analyzers.
At least if they use the additional abilities of the analog channels.

Basically an extension / different application of the mask testing in the Agilent scopes, with preloaded patterns depending on the serial protocol.
 


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