EEVblog Electronics Community Forum

EEVblog => EEVblog Specific => Topic started by: EEVblog on November 09, 2018, 08:11:03 pm

Title: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 09, 2018, 08:11:03 pm
World Exclusive!
A teardown and quick look at the new low cost (ish) Rigol MSO5000 mixed signal oscilloscope, to be release on the 13th Nov.

How does it compare to the 7000 series scope just released 5 months ago?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5faiEUXbGg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5faiEUXbGg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: BravoV on November 09, 2018, 08:12:43 pm
Stop teasing us ...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 09, 2018, 08:12:55 pm
And so it begins...

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on November 09, 2018, 08:38:24 pm
I'm waiting for a black and fanless DS1054Z  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 09, 2018, 08:58:39 pm
I'm waiting for a black and fanless DS1054Z  :-DD

Not this time.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: JohnPen on November 09, 2018, 09:02:57 pm
Why such cruelty to us poor scope users. :( :( :( :(
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Qw3rtzuiop on November 09, 2018, 09:03:20 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9S7YdWE9cM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9S7YdWE9cM)


And here is the Quick Start Manual:
http://www.rigol.com/File/TechDoc/20181017/MSO5000_QuickGuide_EN&CN.pdf (http://www.rigol.com/File/TechDoc/20181017/MSO5000_QuickGuide_EN&CN.pdf)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: julianhigginson on November 09, 2018, 09:08:14 pm
woohoo! individual channel controls!
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Qw3rtzuiop on November 09, 2018, 09:12:29 pm
And they want to anounce another scope at the electronica "with bandwidths from 600 MHz to 2 GHz".

https://www.elektronikpraxis.vogel.de/vom-oszilloskop-bis-zum-funktionsgenerator-das-bietet-rigol-auf-der-electronica-a-773341/ (https://www.elektronikpraxis.vogel.de/vom-oszilloskop-bis-zum-funktionsgenerator-das-bietet-rigol-auf-der-electronica-a-773341/)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Mechatrommer on November 09, 2018, 09:38:37 pm
Stop teasing us ...
esp without a price tag, so we can exit peacefully and quickly from this thread.

woohoo! individual channel controls!
i just made an order, but i think i will have brain damage shortly.... but not that black one (i hope i aint insult anybody)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: LapTop006 on November 09, 2018, 09:46:06 pm
I'm waiting for a black and fanless DS1054Z  :-DD

What is it with TE vendors (well, Rigol & Keysight at least) doing everything in black now?

There's nothing wrong with black (typing this on a black Lenovo ThinkPad), but IMO most test gear seems to work better in white, or at least light colours.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on November 09, 2018, 09:48:10 pm
White stuff gets really dirty really quickly. Black stuff you can't see it as bad.

Black ThinkPad here too which is really mucky but you can't see it :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: LapTop006 on November 09, 2018, 09:54:59 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP7BwpwP1uw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP7BwpwP1uw)

Purely SW upgradable from 70Mhz 2ch DSO, to 350Mhz 4ch MSO.

I think we've got a new licence hacking target.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: rf-loop on November 09, 2018, 10:08:16 pm
I'm waiting for a black and fanless DS1054Z  :-DD

What is it with TE vendors (well, Rigol & Keysight at least) doing everything in black now?

There's nothing wrong with black (typing this on a black Lenovo ThinkPad), but IMO most test gear seems to work better in white, or at least light colours.

After (70) 80 - 90 Hewlet-Packard all have gone terrible. Today all looks like candy boxes and toys.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 09, 2018, 10:20:15 pm
Launch date for the new series is November the 13th. The 2GHz scope won't be at Electronica or if so only for magazine.
The new series can be shipped within this year.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: timgiles on November 09, 2018, 10:42:59 pm
Looking forward to this - is it a tear down and review?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on November 09, 2018, 11:34:17 pm
Ah so this is the world exclusive Dave mentioned a few days ago in one of his lab shift videos.

Looks like they went for the cheaper MSO connector than in the 7000 series.........budget model ?
Less memory too ?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 09, 2018, 11:55:18 pm
Ah so this is the world exclusive Dave mentioned a few days ago in one of his lab shift videos.

Looks like they went for the cheaper MSO connector than in the 7000 series.........budget model ?
Less memory too ?
2 ch models: buffer memory 100Mpts (100Mpts single channel, 25Mpts dual channel)
4 ch models: buffer memory 100Mpts (100Mpts single channel, 50Mpts dual channel (1/3 1/4 2/3 2/4) and 25Mpts all channels active)
all multiplied by 2 with memory extension
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on November 10, 2018, 01:46:58 am
Looking good so far. I hope that the video wasn't sped up >:D
datasheet?
Decoders set?
Math and statistic capability?
Will it be able to display measurement trend? (trace from measurement)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 10, 2018, 01:56:38 am
Looking good so far. I hope that the video wasn't sped up >:D
datasheet?
Decoders set?
Math and statistic capability?
Will it be able to display measurement trend? (trace from measurement)
very curious :) would be nice to wait till the 13th ... isn't it  :popcorn:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: imo on November 10, 2018, 04:53:27 am
7000 and 5000 and none deep reviews..
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: thm_w on November 10, 2018, 07:56:18 am
Surprising it comes so soon after the 7000. I think last time the DS4000 -> DS2000 series was a year or two no?

Also given that the cheapest DS7000 100MHz is $2700 USD, I'm thinking this will be a high price as well.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Old Printer on November 10, 2018, 08:07:18 am
Noticed an HDMI port on the back just under the 1:00 mark. Still likely to be way out of the hobby ballpark.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: maginnovision on November 10, 2018, 08:07:58 am
High sample rate but middle range for bandwidth I'm really not sure what they're going for. 7k is 500MHz, this is 350MHz, next is 200MHz 3k to replace 1054?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Hydrawerk on November 10, 2018, 08:23:37 am
I do not like this small font for automatic measurements. This was also on previously released Rigol scopes.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 10, 2018, 08:42:13 am
Well at least 'pulses' is spelled right this time... -ducks and runs-  >:D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 10, 2018, 08:42:36 am
Noticed an HDMI port on the back just under the 1:00 mark. Still likely to be way out of the hobby ballpark.

Base model is 3 digits, just.
Fully optioned up, you probably don't want to know.
If the base model is hackable they won't be able to make them fast enough.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 10, 2018, 08:43:59 am
High sample rate but middle range for bandwidth I'm really not sure what they're going for. 7k is 500MHz, this is 350MHz, next is 200MHz 3k to replace 1054?

It's high sample rate because they can with the new chips. It means at least 5 times over sampling with all channels on.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: maginnovision on November 10, 2018, 08:44:53 am
Noticed an HDMI port on the back just under the 1:00 mark. Still likely to be way out of the hobby ballpark.

Base model is 3 digits, just.
Fully optioned up, you probably don't want to know.
If the base model is hackable they won't be able to make them fast enough.

If hackable I'll take two then.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on November 10, 2018, 08:45:04 am
Well at least 'pulses' is spelled right this time... -ducks and runs-  >:D
I noticed that too.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 10, 2018, 09:09:31 am
Noticed an HDMI port on the back just under the 1:00 mark. Still likely to be way out of the hobby ballpark.

Base model is 3 digits, just.
Fully optioned up, you probably don't want to know.
If the base model is hackable they won't be able to make them fast enough.
Dunno. At prices around $1k the hobby market gets much thinner and I don't see companies wanting to have a hacked oscilloscope. That is IF the firmware works which is something we don't know for the both the MSO5000 and MSO7000. The similary specced Siglent SDS2000X series doesn't seem to be a very big seller either.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: julianhigginson on November 10, 2018, 02:17:20 pm
it looks like it could be a step up from my old DPO2024.. I'm planning on updating that in the next year or so.  I was assuming I'd probably go for an MSO3k unit, but my  experience when I trying to get a quote on tek's USB VNA a few months ago has me reconsidering tek as the best general option.

the sample rate and waveform capture numbers look pretty amazing, and the basic analysis they showed looks good.. depending on the actual quality of the firmware and the details of the extra features, this is definitely on my list of alternatives to look into. "hackable" or not. (I'm guessing they won't make that mistake with this one!)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 10, 2018, 03:26:31 pm
uBoot output:

Code: [Select]


U-Boot 2014.01.Rigolee.dirty (2018.06.12 - 12:12:01)

I2C:   ready
Memory: ECC disabled
DRAM:  448 MiB
DPU:   20170604
NAND:  OnDie ECC supported, 1024 MiB
zynq-In:    serial
zynq-Out:   serial
zynq-Err:   serial
Net:   Gem.e000b000
BootParam=0x0
Hit any key to stop autoboot:  0

NAND read: device 0 offset 0x4900000, size 0x3591fd
þ
NAND read: device 0 offset 0x4900000, size 0x8
 8 bytes read: OK

NAND read: device 0 offset 0x4500000, size 0x12c008
 1228808 bytes read: OK
Loading logo, x=310,y=247,width=404,height=89

NAND read: device 0 offset 0x5100000, size 0xd8ebf0
 14216176 bytes read: OK
## Loading kernel from FIT Image at 03000000 ...
   Using 'rootfs@1' configuration
   Trying 'kernel@1' kernel subimage
     Description:  Kerstrel Linux kernel
     Type:         Kernel Image
     Compression:  uncompressed
     Data Start:   0x030000f8
     Data Size:    3302448 Bytes = 3.1 MiB
     Architecture: ARM
     OS:           Linux
     Load Address: 0x00100000
     Entry Point:  0x00100000
     Hash algo:    sha1
     Hash value:   bece162e8cad943c68714d8eb8020d68e1db896b
   Verifying Hash Integrity ... sha1+ OK
## Loading ramdisk from FIT Image at 03000000 ...
   Using 'rootfs@1' configuration
   Trying 'ramdisk@1' ramdisk subimage
     Description:  kerstrel-Update-Ramdisk
     Type:         RAMDisk Image
     Compression:  gzip compressed
     Data Start:   0x03328c5c
     Data Size:    10901113 Bytes = 10.4 MiB
     Architecture: ARM
     OS:           Linux
     Load Address: unavailable
     Entry Point:  unavailable
     Hash algo:    sha1
     Hash value:   55bdcbebccba845da403130143793ee0135e53a1
   Verifying Hash Integrity ... sha1+ OK
## Loading fdt from FIT Image at 03000000 ...
   Using 'rootfs@1' configuration
   Trying 'fdt@1' fdt subimage
     Description:  Flattened Device Tree blob
     Type:         Flat Device Tree
     Compression:  uncompressed
     Data Start:   0x0332661c
     Data Size:    9597 Bytes = 9.4 KiB
     Architecture: ARM
     Hash algo:    sha1
     Hash value:   da2d17ba0d5a71b5897deec4cb026014f3132185
   Verifying Hash Integrity ... sha1+ OK
   Booting using the fdt blob at 0x332661c
   Loading Kernel Image ... OK
   Loading Ramdisk to 1b099000, end 1bafe679 ... OK
   Loading Device Tree to 1b093000, end 1b09857c ... OK

Starting kernel ...

Uncompressing Linux... done, booting the kernel.
Booting Linux on physical CPU 0x0
Linux version 3.12.0-xilinx (rigolee[member=167213]Jim[/member]) (gcc version 4.8.1 (Sourcery CodeBench Lite 2013.11-53) ) #43 SMP PREEMPT Sat Jul 28 12:14:01 CST 2018
CPU: ARMv7 Processor [413fc090] revision 0 (ARMv7), cr=18c5387d
CPU: PIPT / VIPT nonaliasing data cache, VIPT aliasing instruction cache
Machine: Xilinx Zynq Platform, model: Xilinx Zynq
Memory policy: Data cache writealloc
PERCPU: Embedded 8 pages/cpu @c09f1000 s8384 r8192 d16192 u32768
Built 1 zonelists in Zone order, mobility grouping on.  Total pages: 113792
Kernel command line: console=ttyPS0,115200 no_console_suspend, root=/dev/ram rw
PID hash table entries: 2048 (order: 1, 8192 bytes)
Dentry cache hash table entries: 65536 (order: 6, 262144 bytes)
Inode-cache hash table entries: 32768 (order: 5, 131072 bytes)
Memory: 437416K/458752K available (4197K kernel code, 255K rwdata, 1716K rodata, 176K init, 179K bss, 21336K reserved, 0K highmem)
Virtual kernel memory layout:
    vector  : 0xffff0000 - 0xffff1000   (   4 kB)
    fixmap  : 0xfff00000 - 0xfffe0000   ( 896 kB)
    vmalloc : 0xdc800000 - 0xff000000   ( 552 MB)
    lowmem  : 0xc0000000 - 0xdc000000   ( 448 MB)
    pkmap   : 0xbfe00000 - 0xc0000000   (   2 MB)
    modules : 0xbf000000 - 0xbfe00000   (  14 MB)
      .text : 0xc0008000 - 0xc05ce880   (5915 kB)
      .init : 0xc05cf000 - 0xc05fb0c0   ( 177 kB)
      .data : 0xc05fc000 - 0xc063bd78   ( 256 kB)
       .bss : 0xc063bd84 - 0xc06689a4   ( 180 kB)
Preemptible hierarchical RCU implementation.
        Dump stacks of tasks blocking RCU-preempt GP.
        RCU restricting CPUs from NR_CPUS=4 to nr_cpu_ids=2.
NR_IRQS:16 nr_irqs:16 16
ps7-slcr mapped to dc802000
Zynq clock init
sched_clock: 32 bits at 100 Hz, resolution 10000000ns, wraps every 4294967286ms
Console: colour dummy device 80x30
Calibrating delay loop... 1725.23 BogoMIPS (lpj=8626176)
pid_max: default: 32768 minimum: 301
Mount-cache hash table entries: 512
CPU: Testing write buffer coherency: ok
CPU0: thread -1, cpu 0, socket 0, mpidr 80000000
Setting up static identity map for 0xc03fa6b8 - 0xc03fa710
L310 cache controller enabled
l2x0: 8 ways, CACHE_ID 0x410000c8, AUX_CTRL 0x72360000, Cache size: 512 kB
CPU1: Booted secondary processor
CPU1: thread -1, cpu 1, socket 0, mpidr 80000001
Brought up 2 CPUs
SMP: Total of 2 processors activated.
CPU: All CPU(s) started in SVC mode.
devtmpfs: initialized
VFP support v0.3: implementor 41 architecture 3 part 30 variant 9 rev 4
regulator-dummy: no parameters
NET: Registered protocol family 16
DMA: preallocated 256 KiB pool for atomic coherent allocations
gpio->base_addr is:0xdc84e000
The gpio irq num is:52
zynq_gpio e000a000.ps7-gpio: gpio at 0xe000a000 mapped to 0xdc84e000
hw-breakpoint: found 5 (+1 reserved) breakpoint and 1 watchpoint registers.
hw-breakpoint: maximum watchpoint size is 4 bytes.
zynq_ocm f800c000.ps7-ocmc: ZYNQ OCM pool: 256 KiB @ 0xdc880000
bio: create slab <bio-0> at 0
vgaarb: loaded
SCSI subsystem initialized
usbcore: registered new interface driver usbfs
usbcore: registered new interface driver hub
usbcore: registered new device driver usb
pps_core: LinuxPPS API ver. 1 registered
pps_core: Software ver. 5.3.6 - Copyright 2005-2007 Rodolfo Giometti <giometti[member=183778]linux[/member].it>
PTP clock support registered
EDAC MC: Ver: 3.0.0
NET: Registered protocol family 2
TCP established hash table entries: 4096 (order: 3, 32768 bytes)
TCP bind hash table entries: 4096 (order: 3, 32768 bytes)
TCP: Hash tables configured (established 4096 bind 4096)
TCP: reno registered
UDP hash table entries: 256 (order: 1, 8192 bytes)
UDP-Lite hash table entries: 256 (order: 1, 8192 bytes)
NET: Registered protocol family 1
RPC: Registered named UNIX socket transport module.
RPC: Registered udp transport module.
RPC: Registered tcp transport module.
RPC: Registered tcp NFSv4.1 backchannel transport module.
Trying to unpack rootfs image as initramfs...
rootfs image is not initramfs (no cpio magic); looks like an initrd
Freeing initrd memory: 10644K (db099000 - dbafe000)
hw perfevents: enabled with ARMv7 Cortex-A9 PMU driver, 7 counters available
NTFS driver 2.1.30 [Flags: R/W].
msgmni has been set to 875
io scheduler noop registered
io scheduler deadline registered
io scheduler cfq registered (default)
DPU:Map vRam to 0xdca00000
DPU:Map iReg to 0xdcc00000
DPU:Ver=0x20170711
dma-pl330 f8003000.ps7-dma: unable to set the seg size
dma-pl330 f8003000.ps7-dma: Loaded driver for PL330 DMAC-2364208
dma-pl330 f8003000.ps7-dma:     DBUFF-128x8bytes Num_Chans-8 Num_Peri-4 Num_Events-16
e0000000.serial: ttyPS0 at MMIO 0xe0000000 (irq = 59, base_baud = 6249999) is a xuartps
console [ttyPS0] enabled
xuartps e0001000.serial: failed to get alias id, errno -19
e0001000.serial: ttyPS1 at MMIO 0xe0001000 (irq = 82, base_baud = 6249999) is a xuartps
brd: module loaded
loop: module loaded
xspips e0006000.ps7-spi: master is unqueued, this is deprecated
xspips e0006000.ps7-spi: at 0xE0006000 mapped to 0xDC858000, irq=58
libphy: XEMACPS mii bus: probed
xemacps e000b000.ps7-ethernet: pdev->id -1, baseaddr 0xe000b000, irq 54
ehci_hcd: USB 2.0 'Enhanced' Host Controller (EHCI) Driver
ehci-pci: EHCI PCI platform driver
ULPI transceiver vendor/product ID 0x0424/0x0009
ULPI integrity check: passed.
ULPI transceiver vendor/product ID 0x0424/0x0009
ULPI integrity check: passed.
xusbps-ehci xusbps-ehci.1: Xilinx PS USB EHCI Host Controller
xusbps-ehci xusbps-ehci.1: new USB bus registered, assigned bus number 1
xusbps-ehci xusbps-ehci.1: irq 76, io mem 0x00000000
xusbps-ehci xusbps-ehci.1: USB 2.0 started, EHCI 1.00
hub 1-0:1.0: USB hub found
hub 1-0:1.0: 1 port detected
usbcore: registered new interface driver usb-storage
mousedev: PS/2 mouse device common for all mice
i2c /dev entries driver
rtc-rx8010sj 0-0032: Update timer was detected
rtc-rx8010sj 0-0032: rtc core: registered rtc-rx8010sj as rtc0
input: Goodix-TS as /devices/virtual/input/input0
xi2cps e0004000.ps7-i2c: 90 kHz mmio e0004000 irq 57
zynq-edac f8006000.ps7-ddrc: ecc not enabled
sdhci: Secure Digital Host Controller Interface driver
sdhci: Copyright(c) Pierre Ossman
sdhci-pltfm: SDHCI platform and OF driver helper
usbcore: registered new interface driver usbhid
usbhid: USB HID core driver
ONFI param page 0 valid
ONFI flash detected
NAND device: Manufacturer ID: 0x2c, Chip ID: 0xd3 (Micron MT29F8G08ADADAH4), 1024MiB, page size: 2048, OOB size: 64
Bad block table found at page 524224, version 0x01
Bad block table found at page 524160, version 0x01
13 ofpart partitions found on MTD device pl353-nand
Creating 13 MTD partitions on "pl353-nand":
0x000000000000-0x000000040000 : "Env"
0x000000100000-0x000004100000 : "DATA"
0x000004100000-0x000004500000 : "Bmp"
0x000004500000-0x000004900000 : "Bmp1"
0x000004900000-0x000005100000 : "Bit1"
0x000005100000-0x000007100000 : "Sys1"
0x000007100000-0x00000d500000 : "App1"
0x00000d500000-0x00000d900000 : "Bmp2"
0x00000d900000-0x00000e100000 : "Bit2"
0x00000e100000-0x000010100000 : "Sys2"
0x000010100000-0x000016500000 : "App2"
0x000016500000-0x00001a800000 : "Reserved"
0x00001a800000-0x000040000000 : "User"
TCP: cubic registered
NET: Registered protocol family 17
Registering SWP/SWPB emulation handler
rtc-rx8010sj 0-0032: setting system clock to 2018-11-10 12:15:08 UTC (1541852108)
RAMDISK: gzip image found at block 0
VFS: Mounted root (ext2 filesystem) on device 1:0.
devtmpfs: mounted
Freeing unused kernel memory: 176K (c05cf000 - c05fb000)
Starting rcS...
++ Mounting filesystem
++ Setting up mdev
++ Starting ftp daemon
rcS Complete
<root@rigol>rpcbind: cannot create socket for udp6
rpcbind: cannot create socket for tcp6
2018-11-10 12:15:21: (log.c.166) server started
7 2048 16 2 "/dev/fb0"
Mount user space to:/user
default setting by user set
Rigol Device gadget: Rigol Device ready
usbcore: registered new interface driver usbtmc
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TheSteve on November 10, 2018, 06:26:01 pm
We always knew Rigol was dirty...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 10, 2018, 08:42:08 pm
@Dave: since you have both the MSO7000 and MSO5000 could you pull some files from them for the noise comparison in this thread: http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscope-input-noise-comparison/ (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscope-input-noise-comparison/)

Forum member maxwell3e10 has created a nice collection of noise levels of various oscilloscopes and having the MSO5000 and MSO7000 added to it would be great (assuming maxwell3e10 is still willing to put in the work to create the graphs).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 10, 2018, 08:57:05 pm
Noticed an HDMI port on the back just under the 1:00 mark. Still likely to be way out of the hobby ballpark.

Base model is 3 digits, just.
Fully optioned up, you probably don't want to know.
If the base model is hackable they won't be able to make them fast enough.
Dunno. At prices around $1k the hobby market gets much thinner and I don't see companies wanting to have a hacked oscilloscope. That is IF the firmware works which is something we don't know for the both the MSO5000 and MSO7000. The similary specced Siglent SDS2000X series doesn't seem to be a very big seller either.
I would say MSO7 (350/200MHz) Vs MSO5 (350/200) about half price.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 10, 2018, 10:25:45 pm
I do not like this small font for automatic measurements. This was also on previously released Rigol scopes.

Previously released Rigol scopes have a setting for larger font.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Hydrawerk on November 11, 2018, 08:46:27 am
I wonder if Keysight is going to release a competitor for this Rigol. DSOX2000A series will be 8 years old in early 2019.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 11, 2018, 05:48:25 pm
@Dave: since you have both the MSO7000 and MSO5000 could you pull some files from them for the noise comparison in this thread: http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscope-input-noise-comparison/ (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscope-input-noise-comparison/)

Forum member maxwell3e10 has created a nice collection of noise levels of various oscilloscopes and having the MSO5000 and MSO7000 added to it would be great (assuming maxwell3e10 is still willing to put in the work to create the graphs).

Here you go:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hxzjzidrofd9eli/Rigol5000-Noise.zip?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/hxzjzidrofd9eli/Rigol5000-Noise.zip?dl=0)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 11, 2018, 07:17:01 pm
World Exclusive!
A teardown and quick look at the new low cost (ish) Rigol MSO5000 mixed signal oscilloscope, to be release on the 13th Nov.

How does it compare to the 7000 series scope just released 5 months ago?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5faiEUXbGg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5faiEUXbGg)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: kripton2035 on November 11, 2018, 07:54:41 pm
it will be a ***very*** interesting scope if you can hack the base model to the high model ... ;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TheSteve on November 11, 2018, 08:00:25 pm
If the 2ch 70 MHz model can be hacked to a fully optioned 4ch 350 MHz with decoders then it will sell, other then that it's a dog at retail pricing.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 11, 2018, 08:01:20 pm
I agree, it's a pity he got a so early FW release. Next week the unit will be at the show Electronica in Munich and I will play with it a lot.
In the mean while units are in stock ready for November the 13th
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: hans on November 11, 2018, 08:02:44 pm
Isn't that the reason why all Rigol scopes were interesting to begin with :box: After all, if you don't look at upgrades then Siglent and other manufacturers are often more competitive.

I'm not sure the numbering scheme makes sense. Feature-price wise this scope seems to follow up the 4000 series. It's too expensive to replace the 2000 series. But then it does cut down on some features that the 4000 series does have (like a 500MHz model), suggesting to me a "3000" series number would have been a better fit.

But perhaps they didn't want to undervalue their current line-up (in terms of marketing psychology), despite the pricing for a 4-ch 200MHz scope looking far more interesting.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 11, 2018, 08:08:23 pm
Even if the difference on price of the MSO5072 and MSO5074 is small we expect the most requested models will be: MSO5072, MSO5104 and MSO5204.
350MHz BW is not very popular, if needed many move to the 500MHz.
So far I'm very impressed by the sampling rate, can't wait to run some test!
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: kripton2035 on November 11, 2018, 08:22:00 pm
mso5072 is $909, and mso5074 is $999
problem: the 4 channels options is at $399 !
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 11, 2018, 08:23:44 pm
mso5072 is $909, and mso5074 is $999
problem: the 4 channels options is at $399 !
yes I know ... but I have this weird feeling
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 11, 2018, 08:44:45 pm
If the 2ch 70 MHz model can be hacked to a fully optioned 4ch 350 MHz with decoders then it will sell, other then that it's a dog at retail pricing.

It's actually quite competitive at the low end compared to the competition, I include a table at the end. Fully loaded though, no, it's poor value.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 11, 2018, 08:45:20 pm
mso5072 is $909, and mso5074 is $999
problem: the 4 channels options is at $399 !

Completely retarded pricing, why bother?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 11, 2018, 08:46:42 pm
350MHz BW is not very popular, if needed many move to the 500MHz.

I'm tempted to agree with that. If you really need 350MHz then you likely really need 350MHz, and you are in the 500M-1GHz class instruments.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 11, 2018, 08:49:59 pm
And here come the flood of Youtube comments saying this scope isn't even remotely "low cost" at $909, and is in fact way overpriced and un-affordable. From people with $1k iPhones in their pocket no doubt ::)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 11, 2018, 08:52:20 pm
mso5072 is $909, and mso5074 is $999
problem: the 4 channels options is at $399 !

Completely retarded pricing, why bother?
schools and universities (education, not research) are still looking for 2 channels, I fully understand the very small price difference but they have to fight against budget and saving some dollars always helps.
then if the point is why Rigol has not set the price of the MSO5074 at 909 - this I don't know.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: NivagSwerdna on November 11, 2018, 09:01:28 pm
And here come the flood of Youtube comments saying this scope isn't even remotely "low cost" at $909, and is in fact way overpriced and un-affordable. From people with $1k iPhones in their pocket no doubt ::)
No need to get arsey.  I have an android phone... and yes $909 is pushing it. As a hobbist up to $500 is more my budget.... might stretch to $700 if I keep my expenses quiet  ;) I have been looking for a 4CH scope for ages so maybe this will get discounted after a while and move it into my price range.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 11, 2018, 09:19:12 pm
And here come the flood of Youtube comments saying this scope isn't even remotely "low cost" at $909, and is in fact way overpriced and un-affordable. From people with $1k iPhones in their pocket no doubt ::)
No need to get arsey.

Yes, there is. I can't put "low cost" in the title without getting hammered for it.
Scopes under $1k have always been in the "low cost" category, starting with 20MHz dual channel analog scopes 30 years ago, and even before that.
A lot of people can't/don't read descriptions and go in with some bias that it's got to be under $300 or $400 or $500, or insert their own budget here.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Towger on November 11, 2018, 09:25:34 pm
Dave,

In the start of your video it look like the top right part of the case does not fit together properly?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 11, 2018, 09:29:07 pm
In the start of your video it look like the top right part of the case does not fit together properly?

Looks fine to me, probably the camera angle.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 11, 2018, 09:35:21 pm
350MHz BW is not very popular, if needed many move to the 500MHz.

I'm tempted to agree with that. If you really need 350MHz then you likely really need 350MHz, and you are in the 500M-1GHz class instruments.

Above 350MHz you need active probes, etc. I imagine that's why there's a 350MHz option - you can just about use ordinary probes there.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 11, 2018, 09:38:22 pm
Isn't that the reason why all Rigol scopes were interesting to begin with :box:

Yep.

A fully optioned DS1054Z would cost $1000+ - nobody would buy it.

For $350+riglol? It's a bargain.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: station240 on November 11, 2018, 09:38:55 pm
Price list based on the list from Dave's video, and various bits of info from Rigol's website.
Yes the digital inputs are an option you have to pay extra for.

Code: [Select]
Rigol MSO5000
MSO5072 $909  2 channel, 70MHz
MSO5074 $999  4 channel, 70MHz
MSO5102 $1409 2 channel, 100MHz
MSO5104 $1499 4 channel, 100MHz
MSO5204 $2609 4 channel, 200MHz
MSO5304 $3999 4 channel, 300MHz

PLA2216 $399 Digital Logic Input cables

Software options
BND   $699 PWR, AWG all serial decode options

AWG   $269 Dual-channel 25 MHz Arbitrary Waveform Generator
COMP  $299 PC serial bus trigger and analysis (RS232/UART)
EMBD  $299 Embedded serial bus trigger and analysis (I2C, SPI)
AUTO  $299 serial bus trigger and analysis (CAN, LIN)
FLEX  $299 FlexRay serial bus trigger and analysis (FlexRay)
AUDIO $299 Audio serial bus trigger and analysis (I2S)
AERO  $299 MIL-STD-1553 serial bus trigger and analysis (MIL-STD-1553)
PWR   $299 Power Analysis. Ripple and Power Quality measurement.
RM    $299 Rack Mount kit
FPC   $79  Front Panel Cover

Lets say I decided to get what I need, and nothing else.
70MHZ 4 channels $999, digital inputs $399, AWG and two serial options (cheaper to get the bundle) $699.
total price US$2,097, looks even worse given the crap currency conversion to Australia Dollar.

Yeah low cost my butt.
Maybe the engineers see this as cheap, the hobbyists and people who have to justify expenses with the boss/wife see this for what it is.
It may be cheap for a 4 channel scope, but the addons are still silly pricing.

Now if they'd managed to actually include the digital inputs in the base price it's might be worth considering.
As it stands, it's much the same sort of pricing as usual, just less.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 11, 2018, 10:09:58 pm
Lets say I decided to get what I need, and nothing else.
70MHZ 4 channels $999, digital inputs $399, AWG and two serial options (cheaper to get the bundle) $699.
total price US$2,097, looks even worse given the crap currency conversion to Australia Dollar.

Yeah low cost my butt.
Maybe the engineers see this as cheap, the hobbyists and people who have to justify expenses with the boss/wife see this for what it is.

They didn't design it for the low end hobbyists, it's designed to compete against the 4-5 other competing 70-300MHz MSO models.
That's why they still sell the 1054Z.

Quote
It may be cheap for a 4 channel scope, but the addons are still silly pricing.

If all you want is a 4CH scope, then no, it's not cheap, it's twice the price of what you need to pay to get a 4CH scope.

Quote
Now if they'd managed to actually include the digital inputs in the base price it's might be worth considering.
As it stands, it's much the same sort of pricing as usual, just less.

Does every scope release have to be ground breaking on price and helping push the race to the bottom?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on November 11, 2018, 10:12:34 pm
I think the price is quite reasonable. SME class business this is pocket change for equipment.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tocsa120ls on November 11, 2018, 11:05:04 pm
Yeah, the two channel one is a definite no-no.

As a side note, I finally fixed my 453A, thanks for the thumbs up, Dave  :-DD When the proper replacement parts arrive (I had to series two Z-diodes and piggyback an 5x20 onto an 6x32mm fuse) I'll write a short story in the Repair section.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: rjp on November 11, 2018, 11:09:42 pm
 To be fair to the whingers if these are low price then the usual rigol/siglent ones need to be called ultra mega low turbo :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Hydrawerk on November 12, 2018, 01:04:41 am
What is the real waveform update rate of MSO5000?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Hydrawerk on November 12, 2018, 01:23:03 am
This Rigol MSO5000 has a rather cheap internal metalwork. The PSU is not impressive. I still do not like CapXon capacitors.
Look at this scope from Hameg / Rohde&Schwarz. There is no durable metal case inside, but the PSU is well built. https://youtu.be/q_FBwu2K7j0?t=710
When this scope sits on your bench without impacts or so, it might last for ages.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on November 12, 2018, 02:20:54 am
Online documentation:

Datasheet: https://www.instrumentcenter.se//50.0.1.0/5407/download_10374.php (https://www.instrumentcenter.se//50.0.1.0/5407/download_10374.php)

User Guide: https://www.instrumentcenter.se//50.0.1.0/5407/download_10375.php (https://www.instrumentcenter.se//50.0.1.0/5407/download_10375.php)

Programming Guide: https://www.instrumentcenter.se//50.0.1.0/5407/download_10376.php (https://www.instrumentcenter.se//50.0.1.0/5407/download_10376.php)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 12, 2018, 02:28:24 am
To be fair to the whingers if these are low price then the usual rigol/siglent ones need to be called ultra mega low turbo :)
Sounds about right.

People also can't stop themselves from complaining when Keysight or Keithley calls a multimeter affordable.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on November 12, 2018, 02:33:20 am
I still see lots of lags in the UI compared to Keysight
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on November 12, 2018, 04:49:46 am
I wonder if the "free bundle option (https://www.rigolna.com/promos/)" will also apply for the MSO5000. Anyway, as usual, the pricing goes up much to steep for higher frequencies.
And, well, leaving out that auto-probe connectors is somewhat shabby (but the same with R&S RTB, Agilent DSOX2000 etc.).
I actually do like the black "color" (yeah, yeah, it's not really a color) though. One reason I like Lecroy ;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 12, 2018, 04:56:00 am
I wonder if the "free bundle option (https://www.rigolna.com/promos/)" will also apply for the MSO5000. Anyway, as usual, the pricing goes up much to steep for higher frequencies.
And, well, leaving out that auto-probe connectors is somewhat shabby (but the same with R&S RTB, Agilent DSOX2000 etc.).
I actually do like the black "color" (yeah, yeah, it's not really a color) though. One reason I like Lecroy ;)
LeCroy is now light grey with black badges :) lol
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: dr.diesel on November 12, 2018, 05:04:11 am
Rigol did not support the 4000 or 6000 series, no reason to think they will here either.   :horse:

Obviously if hackable the value is superb, but otherwise I fail to see why anyone would purchase this.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: MrMobodies on November 12, 2018, 06:01:53 am
uBoot output:

Code: [Select]
U-Boot 2014.01.Rigolee.dirty (2018.06.12 - 12:12:01)

Memory: ECC disabled
DRAM:  448 MiB
NAND:  OnDie ECC supported, 1024 MiB

zynq-edac f8006000.ps7-ddrc: ecc not enabled


Has that actually got ECC memory but they disabled it?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: johnlsenchak on November 12, 2018, 06:10:46 am


I  like the thermal  compound  oozing  out , under  the heat sink  of   the  acquisition   integrated  circuit  8)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 12, 2018, 06:39:37 am
Obviously if hackable the value is superb, but otherwise I fail to see why anyone would purchase this.

There's no reason they can't sell this for $999, let people hack it, still make a ton of money. AS Dave says, their only problem will be manufacturing enough of them.

If they're smart they could make it so it's easy to hack the bandwidth/serial decoders but not easy to hack the signal generator.


Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 12, 2018, 07:47:29 am
Is it hackable?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: scopeman on November 12, 2018, 07:54:10 am
woohoo! individual channel controls!

And a single (multiplexed) cursor control knob...wah..wah..wah.

Once you have them you will never go back.

Sam
W3OHM
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 12, 2018, 07:58:37 am
Is it hackable?

Yes!

(we just don't know how easy it is, yet...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 12, 2018, 08:00:12 am
woohoo! individual channel controls!

And a single (multiplexed) cursor control knob...wah..wah..wah.

Once you have them you will never go back.

It's touch screen though. Dave never seems to get used to using his finger for menu selections but I'm sure other people will.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 12, 2018, 08:48:02 am
Above 350MHz you need active probes, etc. I imagine that's why there's a 350MHz option - you can just about use ordinary probes there.
That is nonsense. You can even build a DIY passive probe which goes to 1GHz for a few dollars worth of parts. And then there is Ebay with used probes and I'll probably be releasing a 'cheap' >1GHz differential probe soon.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 12, 2018, 09:21:47 am
Above 350MHz you need active probes, etc. I imagine that's why there's a 350MHz option - you can just about use ordinary probes there.
That is nonsense. You can even build a DIY passive probe which goes to 1GHz for a few dollars worth of parts. And then there is Ebay with used probes and I'll probably be releasing a 'cheap' >1GHz differential probe soon.

I didn't say you can't. I only said you start to need active probes at about 350MHz.

...and in marketing land that implies a big price hike (the device is now "professional").

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 12, 2018, 09:23:15 am
Oh and one more comment on the video... Dave... the MSO5000 has a friggin' touch screen! Use it! Don't use the select knob and buttons at the side of the screen.  :box:
OTOH it makes me wonder if the user interface has been really designed for a touch screen like the R&S RTB2000 / RTM3000 or that it is just a touch-enabled existing user interface.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 12, 2018, 09:55:31 am
If the 2ch 70 MHz model can be hacked to a fully optioned 4ch 350 MHz with decoders then it will sell, other then that it's a dog at retail pricing.

It's competitive with competing models at the low end, but absolutely not at the higher end.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 12, 2018, 09:57:19 am
uBoot output:

Code: [Select]
U-Boot 2014.01.Rigolee.dirty (2018.06.12 - 12:12:01)

Memory: ECC disabled
DRAM:  448 MiB
NAND:  OnDie ECC supported, 1024 MiB

zynq-edac f8006000.ps7-ddrc: ecc not enabled


Has that actually got ECC memory but they disabled it?

I greatly doubt they'd use ECC memory.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Muttley Snickers on November 12, 2018, 10:13:22 am
Is it hackable?
Yes!   (we just don't know how easy it is, yet...)

To save people the time and trouble they should have just whacked a three way selector switch on the back with a few options.

1. Not hacked at all.
2. Hacked just a bit.
3. This thing is fully hacked.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 12, 2018, 10:38:16 am
uBoot output:
Code: [Select]
U-Boot 2014.01.Rigolee.dirty (2018.06.12 - 12:12:01)

Memory: ECC disabled
DRAM:  448 MiB
NAND:  OnDie ECC supported, 1024 MiB

zynq-edac f8006000.ps7-ddrc: ecc not enabled


Has that actually got ECC memory but they disabled it?
I greatly doubt they'd use ECC memory.
No and no. Some NAND ROM memories have the ability to do the error correction on the chip itself (this has nothing to do with the DDR RAM memory). However you'd still need to take care of the bad block management in software. Most SoCs have a NAND controller which can do error detection & correction in hardware with a better software interface so it is easier to deal with. Doing the error correction entirely in software is also an option.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 12, 2018, 12:04:09 pm
Is it hackable?

Yes!

(we just don't know how easy it is, yet...)


Who is best placed to do the hacking? Im sure that we could rustle up enough support to buy one to send it to the best rigol-hackery-shop we know?      I'd put in a $100 speculative to fund the entry level one, anyone else want to play?

Curious, if the 350Mhz bandwidth is just arbitoryly defined by software.



Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TheSteve on November 12, 2018, 02:35:39 pm
If the 2ch 70 MHz model can be hacked to a fully optioned 4ch 350 MHz with decoders then it will sell, other then that it's a dog at retail pricing.

It's competitive with competing models at the low end, but absolutely not at the higher end.

Hah, you replied to my post twice now with the same message(more or less).

I dunno, $900 for a 70 MHz 2 ch scope still seems pretty blah to me. The fact that it needs heatsinks on the front end ASIC's is also pretty lame for a newly developed chip.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: blueskull on November 12, 2018, 03:18:39 pm
I dunno, $900 for a 70 MHz 2 ch scope still seems pretty blah to me. The fact that it needs heatsinks on the front end ASIC's is also pretty lame for a newly developed chip.

The chip is capable of a few GHz. Think of the bias current required for that.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TheSteve on November 12, 2018, 03:29:57 pm
I dunno, $900 for a 70 MHz 2 ch scope still seems pretty blah to me. The fact that it needs heatsinks on the front end ASIC's is also pretty lame for a newly developed chip.

The chip is capable of a few GHz. Think of the bias current required for that.

I guess it depends on how good it really is. 10 years old tech can build a front end chip good to 1.5 GHz + that has no heat sink at all.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: LapTop006 on November 12, 2018, 03:30:39 pm
To save people the time and trouble they should have just whacked a three way selector switch on the back with a few options.

1. Not hacked at all.
2. Hacked just a bit.
3. This thing is fully hacked.

1. Nah, bro.
2. It's lit.
3. Absolute unit.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on November 12, 2018, 03:45:58 pm
Well at least 'pulses' is spelled right this time... -ducks and runs-  >:D
I noticed that too.

Yep, this time Rigol went for "Threhold" — three times on the same screen. At least it's consistent, I suppose. ;D

(Free QA, as usual. You're welcome, Rigol.  >:D)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on November 12, 2018, 03:47:52 pm
Well at least 'pulses' is spelled right this time... -ducks and runs-  >:D
I noticed that too.

Yep, this time Rigol went for "Threhold" — three times on the same screen. At least it's consistent, I suppose. ;D

(Free QA, as usual. You're welcome, Rigol.  >:D)
Pluses Threhold ?  :-//
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on November 12, 2018, 03:52:12 pm
Maybe on the next model.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Bud on November 12, 2018, 04:15:39 pm
Is it hackable?

Yes!

(we just don't know how easy it is, yet...)


Who is best placed to do the hacking? Im sure that we could rustle up enough support to buy one to send it to the best rigol-hackery-shop we know?      I'd put in a $100 speculative to fund the entry level one, anyone else want to play?

Curious, if the 350Mhz bandwidth is just arbitoryly defined by software.

Before hacking it needs to be checked for proper PLL functioning and power supplies oscillation.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Bud on November 12, 2018, 04:17:18 pm
White stuff gets really dirty really quickly. Black stuff you can't see it as bad.

Black ThinkPad here too which is really mucky but you can't see it :)

You guys do not understand, it is all about diversity. The next model will be Pink.
Or Rainbow.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Brumby on November 12, 2018, 04:23:12 pm
Nah .... Just wait.  They'll have programmable colours you can set up in software.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: ResistorRob on November 12, 2018, 04:58:20 pm
His "World Exclusive" actually wasn't. Batterfly uploaded a hands-on video a couple days before he did  ;D
Dave never went back and did a review on the Siglent 1104X-e like he promised in the teardown video, so I was very happy this time he actually included a quick demonstration within the video.  As an aside I was reading the comments on this video and most are overwhelming complaints about looks and price.
I think is a great scope for the money, and love the way it looks, so don't understand all the people bashing it. The only real negative I see is I wish the screen was brighter. Like Dave said in his video it appears bright but actually isn't. In the Batterfly video you can see the screen is dimmer than what you would hope for.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on November 12, 2018, 05:59:39 pm
OK, not about looks and price from the short demo? Well, the interface is laggy. It's got Rigol's famous, but different this time, spelling errors. Also, I hate the rectangular grid. The screen is wide, but instead of providing more horizontal divisions for looking at signals, they stretched them out to fill the space.
Title: As soon as hack is confirmed
Post by: ebclr on November 12, 2018, 06:10:25 pm
I will buy one, Otherwise money will remain on bank
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Circlotron on November 12, 2018, 06:40:13 pm
No hi-res mode? Show stopper for me.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 12, 2018, 08:09:10 pm
OMG !!! Should I open one now? I will be fired lol
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 12, 2018, 08:18:10 pm
OMG !!! Should I open one now? I will be fired lol

Show us another photo at the end of the month and we'll see how well it sells  ;D
I've heard the 7000 has been a really tough sell
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 12, 2018, 08:23:08 pm
OMG !!! Should I open one now? I will be fired lol

Show us another photo at the end of the month and we'll see how well it sells  ;D
I've heard the 7000 has been a really tough sell
ahahah I almost spit my coffee while reading :)
someone will be gone, they or me ... better them  :-+
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 12, 2018, 09:43:22 pm
OMG !!! Should I open one now? I will be fired lol

What versions are they? Low end, high end? Do you unlock them on demand?

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 12, 2018, 09:45:01 pm
OMG !!! Should I open one now? I will be fired lol

What versions are they? Low end, high end? Do you unlock them on demand?
they are all models in the mix. yes we also took the 2 channels   :-DD
just for more info, logic probe and front cover panel are not available yet.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: timgiles on November 12, 2018, 10:15:43 pm
Whats wrong with a passive heatsink per channel?

If it was placed because its needed - then what negative effect is it going to have?

I would rather than my electronics well cooled than have random lockups.


If the 2ch 70 MHz model can be hacked to a fully optioned 4ch 350 MHz with decoders then it will sell, other then that it's a dog at retail pricing.

It's competitive with competing models at the low end, but absolutely not at the higher end.

Hah, you replied to my post twice now with the same message(more or less).

I dunno, $900 for a 70 MHz 2 ch scope still seems pretty blah to me. The fact that it needs heatsinks on the front end ASIC's is also pretty lame for a newly developed chip.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 12, 2018, 11:57:18 pm
OMG !!! Should I open one now? I will be fired lol
Find the one in the picture which should have been delivered to Australia  >:D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 13, 2018, 12:54:04 am
With the flexibility of software updates it seems crazy that manufacturers are still shipping physically different boxes.


Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: ali_asadzadeh on November 13, 2018, 01:27:36 am
Dave ask them for free giveaways for this from. ^-^ ^-^ ^-^
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on November 13, 2018, 01:32:24 am
Dave ask them for free giveaways for this from. ^-^ ^-^ ^-^
Dave got the scope from a friend (loan), not Rigol... so I guess no give away this time
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 13, 2018, 01:52:39 am
With the flexibility of software updates it seems crazy that manufacturers are still shipping physically different boxes.

Why? It's what customers expect.

(ie. It works right out of the box and has the correct sticker on it)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 13, 2018, 01:54:27 am
I've heard the 7000 has been a really tough sell

It's expensive. People who are used to paying those prices are used to other brands.

The DS1054Z entered a mostly-new market where people don't have so much brand-bias.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 13, 2018, 02:01:39 am
Oh and one more comment on the video... Dave... the MSO5000 has a friggin' touch screen! Use it! Don't use the select knob and buttons at the side of the screen.  :box:

Yep, If Dave wants to do a review it should contain that sort of thing. Use the touch screen, connect up an HDMI monitor, use the remote web interface, etc.

ie. The stuff that would distinguish it from other 'scopes in that price range.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 13, 2018, 02:02:58 am
With the flexibility of software updates it seems crazy that manufacturers are still shipping physically different boxes.

Why? It's what customers expect.

(ie. It works right out of the box and has the correct sticker on it)
I doubt many customers would have a big proiblem with that.
Or it could be done by the dealer, instead of having to stock lots of options.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: NivagSwerdna on November 13, 2018, 02:12:24 am
https://www.instrumentcenter.se/sv/50-150-mhz-bandbredd/rigol-mso5074-blandsignalsoscilloskop-70-mhz-8-gsas-200-mpts-4-analoga-16-digitala-kanaler-7-instrument-i-1.php (https://www.instrumentcenter.se/sv/50-150-mhz-bandbredd/rigol-mso5074-blandsignalsoscilloskop-70-mhz-8-gsas-200-mpts-4-analoga-16-digitala-kanaler-7-instrument-i-1.php)

So the Digital breakout is around another 30%

So how does that compare?  If it is hackable to say 100MHz and is then CH4 + 16 digital channels... What is the competition at that level?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 13, 2018, 02:58:04 am
I opened one unit to shoot an unboxing video. It looks really nice, the mat black fits good. Pretty heavy unit.
Booting time is decent, navigation between functions and menu is pretty fast.
No time to test it more since I have to leave the office and travel to Munich for the show, when back will do some more videos also back to back with R&S RTB2000.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nixfu on November 13, 2018, 03:06:14 am
No Hack == No Sale to the hobbyist market.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 13, 2018, 03:37:20 am
No Hack == No Sale to the hobbyist market.
To be fair and without making comparison right now, this is probably not true.
Many RTB2000 and SDS2000X have been sold to private/hobby users.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 13, 2018, 03:42:03 am
With the flexibility of software updates it seems crazy that manufacturers are still shipping physically different boxes.
Why? It's what customers expect.

(ie. It works right out of the box and has the correct sticker on it)
I doubt many customers would have a big proiblem with that.
Or it could be done by the dealer, instead of having to stock lots of options.
In my experience it is a hassle having to install license keys. Small distributors like the ones for B-brands are typically not setup to deal with spreading licenses.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 13, 2018, 03:44:51 am
With the flexibility of software updates it seems crazy that manufacturers are still shipping physically different boxes.
Why? It's what customers expect.

(ie. It works right out of the box and has the correct sticker on it)
I doubt many customers would have a big proiblem with that.
Or it could be done by the dealer, instead of having to stock lots of options.
In my experience it is a hassle having to install license keys. Small distributors like the ones for B-brands are typically not setup to deal with spreading licenses.
Even if it means lower cost, as the manufacture & supply chain doesn't need to deal with all the different version ?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: supercilious on November 13, 2018, 03:46:02 am
I would wait to see if Rigol commit to fix issues that crop up in the firmware before committing that kind of money, even for the base model. They completely abandoned the 4000 scopes and they left the 2000 series abandoned for ages before eventually patching some stuff.  |O

Who knows how they'll treat this one.  :-//
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: cpuerror on November 13, 2018, 03:48:31 am
Rigol isn't interested in the hobby market with this model, they are trying to aim for Keysight's and Tek's throats.. Keyword is trying. The hardware seems very good and the scope functionality has always delivered with Rigol although its too early to tell for sure. What is killing Rigol is the lack of industrial design and pricing. The layout of the 5000, while nowhere near as bad as the hatchet job they did on 7000, still looks like it was just slapped together by an engineer and meant to go to an industrial designer to actually make it look and function well but they decided to go to production. The 7000 and partly the 5000 reek of an incomplete design rushed to production.

The other thing is taking a page of out Tek's play book and charging a small fortune for every little feature. If the 70Mhz and 350Mhz versions are essentially the same hardware, why is the price difference thousands? If Rigol wants to take a good stab at the old giants, they need to fix their design process and then do a massive undercut. Also, drop the loser 70Mhz version for a scope of this class. For the time being, they simply can't compete on a purely product basis while they have some fool choosing 5 different fonts for the front panel and other things that turn off customers.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: ataradov on November 13, 2018, 05:22:31 am
Keyword is trying.
Yes, and what would help to recoup some of that R&D money is to sell the same chipset to a lot of people fast -> hobby market :)

I would definitely upgrade from 1054 provided the hacks  are in place. I wold even accept their stupid industrial design. Without hacks, the value is not there at all. For the price of a well upgraded Rigol scope, there are a lot of options out there that are more attractive.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: imo on November 13, 2018, 05:22:58 am
MSO5074 $999 fully hacked will be the winner in 2019.. They will sell it [Edit: kilo-]tons per day..
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: blueskull on November 13, 2018, 05:44:55 am
The one thing that I don't understand the most is the lack of 50R input. Say, you have an 8Gsps scope with custom ADC, custom ASIC and custom AFE. All are very nicely done and if it's hackable, for $999.
It looks super attractive, but the 50R killed it.
Has anyone ever measured more than 200MHz without 50R? Sure, a good 1MR 10x or 100x probe can do it, but it comes with excessive capacitive loading on probe point, as well as signal quality issues due to the lossy coax (limits slew rate) and the ground loop (limits flatness).

And FFS, give us the smart probe interface. It costs nothing -- you already have the hexagonal probe socket, just add a few pins for power and I2C. Even a passive resistive smart probe interface for 10x/100x/1x/50R identification is better than nothing.
The same rant goes to Keysight DSOX2000 series too.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Pinkus on November 13, 2018, 05:53:13 am
MSO5074 $999 fully hacked will be the winner in 2019.. They will sell it [Edit: kilo-]tons per day..
If they have to decide between selling 100.000 scopes for $100 profit each or only 5.000 units with $3.000 profit each, guess what they will do.
And then, IF after a year sales is dropping, they can still leak some hacking information to sell another 50.000 units for $100 profit each.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: ataradov on November 13, 2018, 05:58:09 am
And then, IF after a year sales is dropping, they can still leak some hacking information to sell another 50.000 units for $100 profit each.
That assumes that competition does nothing. It is good that they think they can play with the big guys, but by all signs they are deeply mistaken. We'll see how it turns out.

I doubt anyone will go back to Rigol once they try R&S.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on November 13, 2018, 06:12:55 am
MSO5074 $999 fully hacked will be the winner in 2019.. They will sell it [Edit: kilo-]tons per day..
A better deal would be MSO5072 $909 fully hacked (remember you can enable 4 channels with software license)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on November 13, 2018, 06:25:02 am
And then, IF after a year sales is dropping, they can still leak some hacking information to sell another 50.000 units for $100 profit each.
That assumes that competition does nothing. It is good that they think they can play with the big guys, but by all signs they are deeply mistaken. We'll see how it turns out.

I doubt anyone will go back to Rigol once they try R&S.

There a few thing Rigol missed. Hires etc.. Platform is few months old, so lots of debugging needs to be done.. But, it has craploads of sampling mem, it's hardware accelerated decodes and FFT, it can have 4 decodes at the same time...  Stupid 15000 € R&S RTM3000 doesn't even have search on I2C and SPI, and no search on 400 Ms of segmented memory. Talk about premium product.
Rigol 5000 pricing is crazy for now, but they will drop it if it doesn't sell..
And if you compare ds5000 to Keysight 2000 ...  If they make it stable enough, for MSO it could be very useful. Even for a bit more than 999 USD.

But at this point it is kinda funny product, together with DS7000 platform. No hires, no custom math (math is identical to DS1000Z right now), and no search or analysis on segmented memory.
If they add those, than it would be very interesting...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 13, 2018, 06:53:59 am
Has anyone ever measured more than 200MHz without 50R? Sure, a good 1MR 10x or 100x probe can do it, but it comes with excessive capacitive loading on probe point, as well as signal quality issues due to the lossy coax (limits slew rate) and the ground loop (limits flatness).

I have gone up to 350MHz when either probing a terminated 50 ohm transmission line, which is how probe bandwidth is specified, and when using an inline coaxial to probe tip adapter but that presents the same 25 ohm source impedance.  500MHz is feasible under these conditions but I do not have an oscilloscope with high impedance inputs which is that fast.

An example of this is impromptu TDR measurements.  Some low-z digital logic also presents a 25 ohm or lower impedance and can be measured this way. (1)

A high-z passive probe under these conditions lacks the performance of a low-z probe but can tolerate greater overload.

(1) In some cases a special low-z "offset" probe is needed to make these measurements without upsetting the bias conditions but a high-z passive probe can do it without problems.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on November 13, 2018, 06:59:36 am
50Ohm feedthrough resistors should be good to 500MHz or so. Did some measurements of a 20MHz (square wave) LVDS signals with (cheap) differential probes on a 600MHz Lecroy lately where I used feedthrough resistors instead of switching the inputs to 50Ohm (mainly since I was scared to forget to switch back to 1MOhm and then someone else could damage the inputs by applying >12V or so). Worked pretty well indeed.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on November 13, 2018, 07:15:26 am
Looks like Keysight is releasing 4 channel 1000X series scopes:

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/4-channel-keysight-1000x-series-scope/msg1957309/#msg1957309 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/4-channel-keysight-1000x-series-scope/msg1957309/#msg1957309)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Hydrawerk on November 13, 2018, 07:32:10 am
This is not confirmed yet. https://www.keysight.com/en/pcx-2759552/infiniivision-1000-x-series-oscilloscopes?nid=-32110.0&cc=CZ&lc=eng (https://www.keysight.com/en/pcx-2759552/infiniivision-1000-x-series-oscilloscopes?nid=-32110.0&cc=CZ&lc=eng)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 13, 2018, 07:35:24 am
The one thing that I don't understand the most is the lack of 50R input. Say, you have an 8Gsps scope with custom ADC, custom ASIC and custom AFE. All are very nicely done and if it's hackable, for $999.
It looks super attractive, but the 50R killed it.
Are you serious? No 50 Ohm input mode on a 350MHz scope?  :wtf:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 13, 2018, 07:39:18 am
Looks like Keysight is releasing 4 channel 1000X series scopes:

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/4-channel-keysight-1000x-series-scope/msg1957309/#msg1957309 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/4-channel-keysight-1000x-series-scope/msg1957309/#msg1957309)
Do you mean the 4ch version of the existing 2ch? That would be interesting since they sold none of the 2ch...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: supercilious on November 13, 2018, 07:43:42 am
Are you serious? No 50 Ohm input mode on a 350MHz scope?  :wtf:

Theres no 50ohm on the R&S RTB2004 scopes either! I think that external feed-through terminators are okay up to ~300MHz, so its not a big deal here IMO.
Obviously on a 500Mhz+ scope its a deal-breaker though.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on November 13, 2018, 07:54:21 am
Looks like Keysight is releasing 4 channel 1000X series scopes:

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/4-channel-keysight-1000x-series-scope/msg1957309/#msg1957309 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/4-channel-keysight-1000x-series-scope/msg1957309/#msg1957309)
Do you mean the 4ch version of the existing 2ch? That would be interesting since they sold none of the 2ch...
You wish... I bought one
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TurboTom on November 13, 2018, 07:56:57 am
Maybe we've just got to wait a year for the "MSO5000A" to appear on the scene, this time with 50Ohms mode and possibly probe power/sensing. The missing high res mode on both DS7000 and MSO5000 makes me wonder if Rigol "forgot" (or deemed it unneccessary) to implement the boxcar averager in their ASIC? If that's missing and the ASIC lacks the configurability of an FPGA, it will stay missing for the product life...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: imo on November 13, 2018, 08:19:14 am
MSO5074 $999 fully hacked will be the winner in 2019.. They will sell it [Edit: kilo-]tons per day..
If they have to decide between selling 100.000 scopes for $100 profit each or only 5.000 units with $3.000 profit each, guess what they will do.
And then, IF after a year sales is dropping, they can still leak some hacking information to sell another 50.000 units for $100 profit each.
Rigol does $300-$350 profit per unit, I bet. With 300k (my guess) 5072' $909 (fully hacked) units sold in 2019 Rigol will do aprox $210mil revenue and aprox $100mil profit. With $2.7b global o'scopes market in 2019 I would be happy with such a result :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on November 13, 2018, 08:55:41 am
Maybe we've just got to wait a year for the "MSO5000A" to appear on the scene, this time with 50Ohms mode and possibly probe power/sensing. The missing high res mode on both DS7000 and MSO5000 makes me wonder if Rigol "forgot" (or deemed it unneccessary) to implement the boxcar averager in their ASIC? If that's missing and the ASIC lacks the configurability of an FPGA, it will stay missing for the product life...

That is exactly why i'm cautious about it. It is unclear at this point what of the shortcomings are hardcoded and what can be "fixed" or "upgraded" later.
I know they can add better math and search later.
I don't think they will be adding 50 Ohms to 5000 series. Apart from a bit more memory, 500MHz,  50 Ohm and active probe interface, 5000 has all the capability of 7000. 
Upgrading 5000 like you said would practically make it 350 MHz 7000 with standard memory...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TurboTom on November 13, 2018, 09:27:05 am
Rigol also put the DS2000A on the arena and it basically included the 50 Ohms option as the only improvement over the DS2000. In my opinion, the MSO5000 clearly plays somewhere in between the DS2000A and the DS4000 (though both are mature platforms), IMO it hasn't got the "professional appearance" of the 4000. It's just a more "up to date" package with the bells and whistles the competitors offer since a few years. Also, bandwidth-wise it rather competes with the DS2000(A). I'm sure the hardware is capable of more than what's available right now bandwidth-wise, so who knows what Rigol's plans are? Anyway, it's interesting to watch... :popcorn: For my own part, I won't be buying yet another scope in the near future...at least not without getting rid of one of the existing specimen  ;D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on November 13, 2018, 10:05:11 am
Anyway, it's interesting to watch... :popcorn: For my own part, I won't be buying yet another scope in the near future...at least not without getting rid of one of the existing specimen  ;D
Same here  :-DD , I need to get rid of one to even think of getting something new.. I don't really need one though.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 13, 2018, 11:34:01 am
Theres no 50ohm on the R&S RTB2004 scopes either! I think that external feed-through terminators are okay up to ~300MHz, so its not a big deal here IMO.

Obviously on a 500Mhz+ scope its a deal-breaker though.

Based on the poor transient response results of various 1 GHz oscilloscopes shown in TSP's latest video, using an external 50 ohm feedthrough termination on a 500MHz vertical input is fine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-G4OhWSyIo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-G4OhWSyIo)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on November 14, 2018, 04:05:17 am
The one thing that I don't understand the most is the lack of 50R input. Say, you have an 8Gsps scope with custom ADC, custom ASIC and custom AFE. All are very nicely done and if it's hackable, for $999.
It looks super attractive, but the 50R killed it.

digital zoom on 2mV and 1mV/div killed it for me. At least put ERES :palm: until the hack is available i see no reason to get one. Screw the memory and samplerate i'd rather go to the competition, especially if one needs more bandwidth. Used Lecroys in that price range are really attractive, then there's the RTB2000 which is also higher resolution et cetera.

I wonder how limited the decoders are (by design or artificially, to separate between the 5000 and 7000)

Oh, dave, i remember they put a number for overload recovery. could you test it :)? does it signal overloading?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 14, 2018, 04:25:12 am
Going through the datasheet it seems that the samplerate drops to 2Gs/s with 4 channels active. Also ERES is not necessary because the MSO5000 has signal filtering which IMHO -when implemented properly- is better compared to ERES because the cut-off frequency can be adjusted and remains constant regardless the actual samplerate.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: JPortici on November 14, 2018, 05:02:26 am
so there are filters? my bad. My understanding was that there is no form of filtering at all.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 14, 2018, 05:20:48 am
so there are filters? my bad. My understanding was that there is no form of filtering at all.

The manual says this:
(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=570986;image)

No detail provided there but it seems like they provide it instead of "hi-res" mode.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on November 14, 2018, 05:37:29 am
so there are filters? my bad. My understanding was that there is no form of filtering at all.

The manual says this:
(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=570986;image)

No detail provided there but it seems like they provide it instead of "hi-res" mode.
No, that is exactly what it says, antialiasing, to prevent aliasing (subsampling) artefacts in display . DS1000Z has that function too.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on November 14, 2018, 05:44:13 am
Very good explanation of Hires vs filtering from Lecroy

http://teledynelecroy.com/doc/differences-between-eres-and-hires (http://teledynelecroy.com/doc/differences-between-eres-and-hires)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on November 14, 2018, 06:39:25 am
Batronix offers the MSO5000 now. MSO5072 starts at ~ €963 (including VAT). Logic probe not included.
And obviously there is no "free budle option" for the MSO5000 at this time.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: skander36 on November 14, 2018, 07:53:01 am
Recomended prices from Rigol - https://www.rigol.eu/products/digital-oscilloscopes/MSO5000/ (https://www.rigol.eu/products/digital-oscilloscopes/MSO5000/)
Simone (Batterly) offer the best price for now .
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: dardosordi on November 14, 2018, 08:38:16 am
Dave, the forum link on the youtube video is broken.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 14, 2018, 08:47:43 am
Recomended prices from Rigol - https://www.rigol.eu/products/digital-oscilloscopes/MSO5000/ (https://www.rigol.eu/products/digital-oscilloscopes/MSO5000/)

809 Euros for the baseline model. They're going to make many millions after the hack appears.  :popcorn:

(we just need somebody to dump the ROM and everybody who knows the chip to look and find the license check algorithm)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 14, 2018, 08:53:29 am
Competition document attached.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: ataradov on November 14, 2018, 08:58:14 am
Competition document attached.
Even this document contains a lot of different fonts. They should really hire someone to check this. The situation is so bad that it would be a full-time position
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 14, 2018, 09:08:00 am
Recomended prices from Rigol - https://www.rigol.eu/products/digital-oscilloscopes/MSO5000/ (https://www.rigol.eu/products/digital-oscilloscopes/MSO5000/)

809 Euros for the baseline model. They're going to make many millions after the hack appears.  :popcorn:

(we just need somebody to dump the ROM and everybody who knows the chip to look and find the license check algorithm)

In deed, i likely would buy 4 of them,  they woudl be a great 'bench' scope to put on peoples work areas for general work.. ( I have old DS1102E's for that, but they are getting a bit tired. ).. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 14, 2018, 09:21:40 am
Competition document attached.
Even this document contains a lot of different fonts. They should really hire someone to check this. The situation is so bad that it would be a full-time position
Maybe check the English while they're at it. WTF is a "burr signal"
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on November 14, 2018, 09:30:08 am
Competition document attached.
Even this document contains a lot of different fonts. They should really hire someone to check this. The situation is so bad that it would be a full-time position
Maybe check the English while they're at it. WTF is a "burr signal"
Lots of factual errors too. Lots of text was copy/paste from DS7000 material.. Like references to 3000 series Teks and Keysight...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: thm_w on November 14, 2018, 09:44:31 am
https://rigolcanada.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/mso5000/
$1,173 CAD for the base model, if that is true its even cheaper than the USD price. $886 USD. Were there any china test gear tariffs?

One note in the datasheet, they state: "Unique online version upgrade". Hopefully that just means you can upgrade over ethernet if you want to, I doubt they would force anything. But worst case could run it with ethernet unplugged.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on November 14, 2018, 10:02:35 am
https://rigolcanada.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/mso5000/
$1,173 CAD for the base model, if that is true its even cheaper than the USD price. $886 USD. Were there any china test gear tariffs?
I think US is applying 10% tariff for China Made Products, and scopes fall into this category.  (25% for Spectrum Analyzers) Rigol DS1054Z is now $375 (up from $345) and Keysight 1000X (Made in China) series prices are up as well.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Hydrawerk on November 14, 2018, 10:41:19 am
Competition document attached.
Even this document contains a lot of different fonts. They should really hire someone to check this. The situation is so bad that it would be a full-time position
Wow, this document looks like it was unfinished or something...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on November 14, 2018, 11:18:09 am
If you are supposed to know thousands of characters, the finer details of western typesets might become blurry.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: ataradov on November 14, 2018, 11:21:34 am
If you are supposed to know thousands of characters, the finer details of western typesets might become blurry.
That's why you hire an industrial designer. Spelling errors in the UI and horrible fonts are OK if you are providing excellent value. But when you want to play with big guys, you need to be on the level at least in the industrial design, arguably the simplest metric to achieve.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on November 14, 2018, 01:30:06 pm
Then again, it's become Rigol's "style." Hopefully, no one else decides it's a good idea and copies the poor practices.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on November 14, 2018, 01:41:34 pm
Seriously... if you are a hobbyist, why would you pay $909 for a scope that is similar to the DS1054Z?  Except for higher sample memory, is there any new feature on the MSO5000 that a hobbyist can take advantage of vs the 1054Z?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on November 14, 2018, 01:56:22 pm
There's higher sampling rate, too. But, no, for general use the DS1054Z, SDS1104X-E, etc. are just fine. I'm not replacing mine.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: alexkiritz on November 14, 2018, 05:35:39 pm
Seriously... if you are a hobbyist, why would you pay $909 for a scope that is similar to the DS1054Z?  Except for higher sample memory, is there any new feature on the MSO5000 that a hobbyist can take advantage of vs the 1054Z?

9 inch 1024 x 600 screen vs 7 inch 800 X 480 screen. I'm sure that's enough reason for a lot of people.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: LapTop006 on November 14, 2018, 06:49:04 pm
9 inch 1024 x 600 screen vs 7 inch 800 X 480 screen. I'm sure that's enough reason for a lot of people.

Yep, non-teensy screen is one of the key reasons I bought the scope I did, sure you can plug in external screens, but you intend to move a scope around that's just more of a pain.

The Tek MSO5 is great for this, hopefully better screens keep trickling down to more affordable scopes.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 14, 2018, 07:08:53 pm
Seriously... if you are a hobbyist, why would you pay $909 for a scope that is similar to the DS1054Z?  Except for higher sample memory, is there any new feature on the MSO5000 that a hobbyist can take advantage of vs the 1054Z?

Touch screen, web interface, HDMI output, better FFT...


Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Muttley Snickers on November 14, 2018, 07:20:28 pm
It also has a clock.   :-+ 
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 14, 2018, 07:32:13 pm
Seriously... if you are a hobbyist, why would you pay $909 for a scope that is similar to the DS1054Z?  Except for higher sample memory, is there any new feature on the MSO5000 that a hobbyist can take advantage of vs the 1054Z?

Bigger screen, per-channel controls, touch screen, HDMI output, web interface, better FFT?

OTOH the $909 model only has two channels and no serial decoding, so...  :--

The success/fail of this will depend entirely on the hacking, IMHO. I don't see why anybody would buy the $909 model instead of the much cheaper 2-channel Siglent (is a fancy screen and separate controls worth $400 plus loss of bandwidth and serial decoders? I don't think so)

No hacks=no sales. Rigol must know that. I can't believe they'll throw away all the R&D effort for their new chipset by trying to sell it at the official prices, it would be suicide.

They have the option of offering "free" options, sure, it wouldn't surprise me if you get free serial decoders this Xmas, but they'll probably make far more money in the long term by just letting people hack it.

Hacking this would completely kill their DS2000X range though and I bet there's an idiot boss at Rigol who's worried about that.

I'm sure the hack will happen, the only question is whether you need JTAG or just a keygen.

There's higher sampling rate, too.

Not in the $909 model.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: imo on November 14, 2018, 07:55:58 pm
Any idea what is the Spartan6 doing there?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on November 14, 2018, 10:25:52 pm
There's higher sampling rate, too.

Not in the $909 model.  :popcorn:
MSO5072 ($909) has 8GSa/s
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Gromitt on November 15, 2018, 02:13:35 am
Recomended prices from Rigol - https://www.rigol.eu/products/digital-oscilloscopes/MSO5000/ (https://www.rigol.eu/products/digital-oscilloscopes/MSO5000/)
Simone (Batterly) offer the best price for now .

No, Batterfly has the same price as Batronix, and Batronix offers free postage in EU.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Old Printer on November 15, 2018, 03:22:49 am
Odd that in the US Tequipment's site makes no mention of the new MSO5000 yet Saelig has a big splash on it???
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tequipment on November 15, 2018, 12:22:23 pm
Search see tequipment we have it up
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: julianhigginson on November 15, 2018, 12:30:52 pm
I think it's safe to assume that the MSO5000 isn't particularly aimed at hobbyists.  Yeah there's configurations that are under the famous "big hobby expenditure bump" at $3k, but  it doesn't seem to be aimed at the people doing the same kind of things as DS1000z customers.

Lets see how the hack situation goes, but really I'm expecting they will plug that gap after having to give away so much functionality on the 1000z.

Also, all this talk about the 2 channel 70MHz version is a bit funny.

You guys realise that option is there as a price anchor for the versions they actually expect to sell?

The concept of having a scope at the level of the MSO5000, but only having 70MHz bandwidth and 2 channels (barbaric! who would have a scope with only 2 channels in this day and age?!??!) is just too depressing to consider.. If you only need 2 channels and 70MHz, well you really don't need 8GS/s and 500k captures/sec either, so just get the DS1000z.

If you're buying a MSO5000 for general professional embedded work, you're going to be looking at the 4 channel 200MHz version and the app bundle... US$3400ish. (plus maybe the logic analyser cable bundle for anther $400, but most can live without having an LA in their scope these days)  And assuming the implementation of the firmware is basically functional and the scope is easy to use and accurate and reliable, well that would be a great bargain looking at equivalent low/mid tek and keysight models.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: chickenHeadKnob on November 15, 2018, 01:14:23 pm
The smallest fonts on the screen look to be equal in size to the smallest font on the DS2072a. Is that the case? I find them to be inscrutable. It would be a shame if that is still a problem, but at least you can hook up an external monitor so maybe not such a big deal.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 15, 2018, 01:53:33 pm
Has anyone hacked it yet?   Should i buy one and have a go.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: maginnovision on November 15, 2018, 03:16:11 pm
Yea, I was going to wait until after christmas(no time before then anyway) but you should definitely see what's up!
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: ResistorRob on November 15, 2018, 04:03:39 pm
From a poor hobbyist point of view. I have been wanting a new scope badly for a few years now, but have been going through some tough financial times. I could probably scrape together enough for a Rigol 1054z sometime soon but it was missing a few things on my wishlist and don't care for the toyish looks. The new Siglent 1104-x would fit my needs perfectly, but I drool in jealousy over touchscreen scopes. I love black test equipment and most my test equipment is black and from the 80's and 90's including my broken scope. If someone can hack this for $1,000 to get a touchscreen scope would be amazing. I say 1k because I would all 4 probes. I only need 100Mhz but unlocking serial decodes seems like a rip off. Then I would pay to get the logic analyzer probes down the road.

So as a serious hobbyist I would be willing to save up a longer time to get the touchscreen. The different size fonts don't bother me. Once I get a decent scope I will probably start a YouTube channel. I have some ideas for electronics projects that I'm really excited to do and nobody online has ever posted anything like them, and would be fun to share with the tiny community of old school hobbyists not the Rasperry Pi and Arduino crowd, and probably won't appeal to engineers either, lol.

I think Rigol did a nice job with this. My fingers are crossed it is hackable because if it is I will sell my soul to the devil to get one :-) 
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 15, 2018, 06:34:45 pm
I'm expecting they will plug that gap after having to give away so much functionality on the 1000z.

Huh? You don't think they "allowed" it? It wouldn't have sold otherwise.

The previous generation worked the same way (DS1052E was hackable).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 15, 2018, 06:37:45 pm
I think Rigol did a nice job with this. My fingers are crossed it is hackable because if it is I will sell my soul to the devil to get one :-)

If it's soft-upgradable then it IS hackable. Period.

We just don't know how much effort it takes (nobody has one yet!)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 16, 2018, 01:59:01 am
And assuming the implementation of the firmware is basically functional and the scope is easy to use and accurate and reliable, well that would be a great bargain looking at equivalent low/mid tek and keysight models.
Well.. people have been writing that for many years on this forum and it hasn't become a reality yet.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 16, 2018, 04:14:19 am
Had a quick play with one at Electronica and a chat with one of their US guys.
I didn't find anything obvuiously wrong, knobs maybe a little small, and might have been better in a colour that gave some contrast with the black.
Uart decode goes to 20Mbaud.
Screen feels a bit small once you have the MSO on
Mso probe has an acvtive head and 0.1" pin header, and they supply single wire probe leads, not paired with gnd so could have inductance issues.
US guy also thought it nuts thay they did a 2ch version.
Has HDMI out, which for some reason has option to diwnscale to VGA and 720xsomething-is there any hdmi device that would need that?
 
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TheSteve on November 16, 2018, 06:28:44 am
I think Rigol did a nice job with this. My fingers are crossed it is hackable because if it is I will sell my soul to the devil to get one :-)

If it's soft-upgradable then it IS hackable. Period.

We just don't know how much effort it takes (nobody has one yet!)

Unless they really wanted to make it secure and used some custom silicon, but that is extremely unlikely.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: thm_w on November 16, 2018, 08:15:58 am
If you're buying a MSO5000 for general professional embedded work, you're going to be looking at the 4 channel 200MHz version and the app bundle... US$3400ish. (plus maybe the logic analyser cable bundle for anther $400, but most can live without having an LA in their scope these days)  And assuming the implementation of the firmware is basically functional and the scope is easy to use and accurate and reliable, well that would be a great bargain looking at equivalent low/mid tek and keysight models.

Can be related to budgets. At many companies you can get away with $900 per month budget, but not a singular $4k purchase. So month 1 get the 2 channel scope, month 2 get the bandwidth upgrade, etc.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 16, 2018, 09:46:58 am
I think Rigol did a nice job with this. My fingers are crossed it is hackable because if it is I will sell my soul to the devil to get one :-)

If it's soft-upgradable then it IS hackable. Period.

We just don't know how much effort it takes (nobody has one yet!)

Unless they really wanted to make it secure and used some custom silicon, but that is extremely unlikely.
They do have custom silicon, 3 chips ISTR, and they could have thrown some stuff in there to support security.
Even without that, there are ways they could make it pretty much hackproof, but Chinese software writers are unlikely to have the imagination to do it effectively.
Of course that assumes they really want to secure it, which I think they probably do.

The entry cost means a much higher barrier to entry to someone wanting to investigate seriously, with the risk of damage/bricking.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: julianhigginson on November 16, 2018, 01:13:43 pm
Well.. people have been writing that for many years on this forum and it hasn't become a reality yet.

yeah... that's why I'm looking at it with interest, rather than running about with my credit card out.
:-)
Really, for what it's meant to be, the DS1000z isn't too bad now. it's a little annoying in a few ways, and the serial decode feature sucks. but, well, as an entry level scope, it's good.

For me, with this new unit I'm interested in the usability of the ethernet remote control & capture functions - and would want the serial decode to be way better than the 1000z implementation... those two being good, plus generally having the rest of the functionality do what it says on the box, and no major faults found with any features, this will be a good general purpose embedded scope. And looking at how they went with the DS1000z, I think that it's likely they will do it. Even if there's issues on release.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nixfu on November 16, 2018, 01:33:49 pm
Personally hoping Rigol will come out with a better Spectrum Analyer that ups the performance and lowers the price at the same time to increase the $/performance to the point it’s more feasible for hobbyists to buy one. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: scopeman on November 16, 2018, 03:00:22 pm
woohoo! individual channel controls!

And a single (multiplexed) cursor control knob...wah..wah..wah.

Once you have them you will never go back.

It's touch screen though. Dave never seems to get used to using his finger for menu selections but I'm sure other people will.

A little bit of a rant here but here goes.......

The problem with touch screen (and I have tried very hard to get LeCroy to really listen to me on this) is that a touch screen is nice and handy at times but for the most part for me it is a gimmick and you can not get the precision out of a touch screen (even if you use a stylus) than you can get out of a couple of cursor knobs. If I have a precise cursor measurement to make I turn the touch screen off.

I have one of their 12 bit scopes (yes it has touch they call Maui) that I love for the resolution and other reasons but I despise the one knob for the cursor, a real time waster. Having to cycle through the selections takes time and is very distracting. With two cursor knobs, a reference and a difference cursor moving and measuring between two points, especially in zoom mode even in a large field of data is easy. Couple that with direct keypad entry of the cursor position and then you have something.

I really like my old LeCroy Waverunner 6K that has two cursor knobs and two zoom controls (one for amount of zoom and one for the position of zoom) as well as individual vertical attenuation and position controls. Whoever at LeCroy designed the ergonomics for that scope was a real scope user! So if I have a lot of measurements to make and I don't have all day to do them I dig out the old scope and sacrifice the resolution.

The cost of the added digital encoder controls are virtually insignificant when you consider that these modern scopes are 10's of kilobucks. Don't get me wrong, I like the big screen but you might have to do make the scope a whole inch to a inch and a half wider to add the controls? No one is going to care about that. It looks to me that there is plenty of room to at least add the second cursor knob (two concentric controls could add both the zoom and the position) on the Rigol MSO5000 "Darth Vader" scope.

Sam
W3OHM

 


Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 16, 2018, 07:13:11 pm
Recomended prices from Rigol - https://www.rigol.eu/products/digital-oscilloscopes/MSO5000/ (https://www.rigol.eu/products/digital-oscilloscopes/MSO5000/)
Simone (Batterly) offer the best price for now .

No, Batterfly has the same price as Batronix, and Batronix offers free postage in EU.
we also offer free shipment with TNT express service, please check the shipping terms.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 16, 2018, 07:21:19 pm
Hello, we are back from the show and it was loooooong walk around.
Spent big time playing with the MSO5000 and I will do more next week at the office.
As Dave indicated, while we were in Germany, we almost sold all units in 3 days from the launch! New stock is coming already.
There are lot of consideration to do about the unit, yes the display could have been brighter but connected to HDMI is fine (and way bigger)
While I was there I spoke to several visitors and most of them wanted to see the FFT, no much request about decoding.
I agree with many of you the starting price point is not really hobby oriented, but the specs are way better than DS1054Z and if some one will hack it well then will be a great deal.
What is not clear yet is when you take the 4 channels upgrade the missing probes are not included  :palm:
I will try to understand better when the show is over and give a better answer here.
For now - ciao
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 16, 2018, 07:49:59 pm
Quote
I despise the one knob for the cursor, a real time waster. Having to cycle through the selections takes time and is very distracting.

And if there is only one knob, double-pressing it should toggle the cursors in an intelligent way - from memory I think R&S RTB does this but Keysight doesn't
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Hydron on November 16, 2018, 10:52:40 pm
Regardless of whether you use it for general navigation, a touchscreen is fantastic for entering numbers/letters using an onscreen keypad. Anything where you'd otherwise scroll through a list laboriously entering 1 character at a time becomes hugely quicker, examples being custom attenuation factors, sig-gen freq/offset, FFT span/start/end, filenames for screenshots, vertical/horizontal offsets and many more.

It's not the answer for some other things, e.g. V/div setting, but is handy enough that I'd trade a lot of physical controls for this one feature.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 16, 2018, 11:04:57 pm
Also things like rearranging  the positons of 16 digital inputs - this gets painful without a touchscreen
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on November 16, 2018, 11:23:41 pm
but I drool in jealousy over touchscreen scopes.)
You can get the Micsig TO1104 (4-channel touch screen tablet 100MHz with serial decode & battery) for around $485 (US)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 17, 2018, 06:25:51 am
I think Rigol did a nice job with this. My fingers are crossed it is hackable because if it is I will sell my soul to the devil to get one :-)

If it's soft-upgradable then it IS hackable. Period.

We just don't know how much effort it takes (nobody has one yet!)

If they have used some level of cryptography, so a specific licence key that is keyed to the hardware, then it might be much harder than the previous variants.    Maybe Rigo actually wants it to be hacked.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 17, 2018, 08:38:15 am
Well.. people have been writing that for many years on this forum and it hasn't become a reality yet.

The DS1054Z has had several firmware updates. What bugs are left now?  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 17, 2018, 08:48:51 am
Of course that assumes they really want to secure it, which I think they probably do.

Anything above the DS1054Z already requires you to open it up and use a JTAG programmer to hack it. Only the base models are hackable with a simple keygen.

That's enough of an impediment to prevent the majority of people from doing it even if the instructions are widely available.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: glarsson on November 17, 2018, 09:12:01 am
Anything above the DS1054Z already requires you to open it up and use a JTAG programmer to hack it.
The DS4000 series is upgraded using keygen.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 17, 2018, 12:58:02 pm
Of course that assumes they really want to secure it, which I think they probably do.

Anything above the DS1054Z already requires you to open it up and use a JTAG programmer to hack it. Only the base models are hackable with a simple keygen.

That's enough of an impediment to prevent the majority of people from doing it even if the instructions are widely available.

So what is required to have a go to hack it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TheSteve on November 17, 2018, 01:55:28 pm
Of course that assumes they really want to secure it, which I think they probably do.

Anything above the DS1054Z already requires you to open it up and use a JTAG programmer to hack it. Only the base models are hackable with a simple keygen.

That's enough of an impediment to prevent the majority of people from doing it even if the instructions are widely available.

So what is required to have a go to hack it.

I'm thinking a JTAG interface compatible with the CPU it uses so you can dump the flash chip. From there the OS can be analyzed.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 17, 2018, 07:28:43 pm
Of course that assumes they really want to secure it, which I think they probably do.

Anything above the DS1054Z already requires you to open it up and use a JTAG programmer to hack it. Only the base models are hackable with a simple keygen.

That's enough of an impediment to prevent the majority of people from doing it even if the instructions are widely available.

So what is required to have a go to hack it.

I'm thinking a JTAG interface compatible with the CPU it uses so you can dump the flash chip. From there the OS can be analyzed.

From what i read in the bootloader, it seems its running on a Zync SOC, with the Xilinx variant of linux.    If i had that hardware, id use the secure bootloader, so reading the flash won't be particulally helpful as it woudl be AES256 encrypted.     

Did dave do a tear down? would be interesting to know whats actually inside it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TheSteve on November 18, 2018, 05:47:16 am
Well you won't know until you try it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: ResistorRob on November 18, 2018, 07:33:50 am
I have a dumb question. Does this do Bode Plots like the Siglent 1104X-e?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 18, 2018, 08:19:43 am
 That is true.

I'm heading to the US soon, i might pick one up while i'm thiere, because they are much much cheaper in the USA, than downunder.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 18, 2018, 09:19:50 pm
So what is required to have a go to hack it.

The first thing you need is two 'scopes with different options.

One to figure out the exact chips on the board and the available test/JTAG points, the other to figure out what's different between the two.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on November 18, 2018, 10:03:57 pm
I'm puzzled that the common opinion here seems to be that the mere existence of a JTAG port means that you can read out the flash. Even back in early Atmel 8bit microcontrollers 20 years ago, there were mechanisms to prohibit reading of flash ("fuses"). Every microcontroller nowadays should have means to disable JTAG in production and/or disable read access to RAM and flash through JTAG. If Rigol didn't prohibit reading out the flash in the past, you can choose if this was due to incompetence or a "don't care" policy. Anyway, either can change.

After prohibiting reading out the flash, the next logical step is encrypting firmware images. Sothe bootblock decrypts the image while reading. And since you can't read out the bootblock, you can't access the key for decoding. When an RSA/AES encryption with sufficient key length is used, this approach is pretty much bullet proof.

The only hope then would be to find a weakness in the specific microcontroller to circumvent the flash read protection. The "chip tuning" industry managed to find such flaws in several automotive processors, but obviously this is nothing you can rely on.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 18, 2018, 10:24:43 pm
I'm puzzled that the common opinion here seems to be that the mere existence of a JTAG port means that you can read out the flash. Even back in early Atmel 8bit microcontrollers 20 years ago, there were mechanisms to prohibit reading of flash ("fuses"). Every microcontroller nowadays should have means to disable JTAG in production and/or disable read access to RAM and flash through JTAG. If Rigol didn't prohibit reading out the flash in the past, you can choose if this was due to incompetence or a "don't care" policy. Anyway, either can change.

After prohibiting reading out the flash, the next logical step is encrypting firmware images. Sothe bootblock decrypts the image while reading. And since you can't read out the bootblock, you can't access the key for decoding. When an RSA/AES encryption with sufficient key length is used, this approach is pretty much bullet proof.

The only hope then would be to find a weakness in the specific microcontroller to circumvent the flash read protection. The "chip tuning" industry managed to find such flaws in several automotive processors, but obviously this is nothing you can rely on.
We're not talking about flash on an MCU here, but a seperate flash chip, which may be accessable using boundary scan port on the device connected to it.
If the flash is connected to an FPGA, you could load a bitstream into the FPGA to read the flash and spit it out serially
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 18, 2018, 10:26:06 pm
After prohibiting reading out the flash, the next logical step is encrypting firmware images. Sothe bootblock decrypts the image while reading. And since you can't read out the bootblock, you can't access the key for decoding. When an RSA/AES encryption with sufficient key length is used, this approach is pretty much bullet proof.
I'm wondering if Rigol is allowed to use AES encryption on the firmware. There might be export restrictions. I'm pretty sure the NSA and similar security agencies will want to examine the firmware for any hidden forms of cyber attack.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 18, 2018, 10:57:52 pm
I'm puzzled that the common opinion here seems to be that the mere existence of a JTAG port means that you can read out the flash. Even back in early Atmel 8bit microcontrollers 20 years ago, there were mechanisms to prohibit reading of flash ("fuses"). Every microcontroller nowadays should have means to disable JTAG in production and/or disable read access to RAM and flash through JTAG. If Rigol didn't prohibit reading out the flash in the past, you can choose if this was due to incompetence or a "don't care" policy. Anyway, either can change.

Sure, but this isn't a fixed-function microcontroller that gets programmed once at the factory.

These devices are firmware upgradable. The chips used on them work by reading their code from an external flash memory chip at power-on and they need a way to rewrite the contents of those chips during upgrades/patches.

The chips aren't potted so the worst case is that you have to solder little wires onto the chip and sniff the data when it boots (it's usually a serial bus, eg. SPI).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 18, 2018, 11:01:16 pm
I'm wondering if Rigol is allowed to use AES encryption on the firmware. There might be export restrictions. I'm pretty sure the NSA and similar security agencies will want to examine the firmware for any hidden forms of cyber attack.

I'm sure it would be easier to sniff the Ethernet/USB bus for malicious traffic than try to reverse engineer the firmware.

(Ethernet/USB is the only way an oscilloscope could really "attack" anything)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on November 18, 2018, 11:06:17 pm
We're not talking about flash on an MCU here, but a seperate flash chip, which may be accessable using boundary scan port on the device connected to it.
If the flash is connected to an FPGA, you could load a bitstream into the FPGA to read the flash and spit it out serially
Ah, OK, in my field of work (automotive/engine control), external flash hasn't been used since ages. So i must admit didn't think of this approach. Still, I would think in the 21st century someone came up with an approach to prevent an attack on the flash, specifically if the device is Linux based and the flash contains a file system. Like you could use an encrypted file system and store the decryption key in protected microcontroller flash or whatever.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 18, 2018, 11:44:45 pm
Like you could use an encrypted file system and store the decryption key in protected microcontroller flash or whatever.

Sure, they could do all that (and more besides)

But it's weird that they didn't put the same level of protection in the DS1000Z as in the DS1000Z 'Plus' models.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 18, 2018, 11:45:06 pm
I'm wondering if Rigol is allowed to use AES encryption on the firmware. There might be export restrictions. I'm pretty sure the NSA and similar security agencies will want to examine the firmware for any hidden forms of cyber attack.
I'm sure it would be easier to sniff the Ethernet/USB bus for malicious traffic than try to reverse engineer the firmware.
No. Inspecting the firmware is the only way because there might be specific triggers involved. Think about the scope examining a USB stick and network traffic first to look for company names. A crapload of information is broadcasted on networks so there is no need to send anything in order to collect initial data.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 19, 2018, 12:27:15 am
No. Inspecting the firmware is the only way because there might be specific triggers involved. Think about the scope examining a USB stick and network traffic first to look for company names. A crapload of information is broadcasted on networks so there is no need to send anything in order to collect initial data.

The NSA has no way to broadcast some "typical" traffic at an oscilloscope? :popcorn:

And, (b) If you were a boss at Rigol, would you risk being caught doing something like that? It would be the end of the company.

I think the only way an attack of this sort would be attempted would be on a specific shipment that was destined for a particular company. Keep as low a profile as possible. In that case examining the "public" firmware wouldn't do you any good.

And, (c) If I were going to do something this risky I'd do it in hardware, not software. Examining the firmware wouldn't give any clues.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 19, 2018, 01:43:52 am
No. Inspecting the firmware is the only way because there might be specific triggers involved. Think about the scope examining a USB stick and network traffic first to look for company names. A crapload of information is broadcasted on networks so there is no need to send anything in order to collect initial data.
The NSA has no way to broadcast some "typical" traffic at an oscilloscope? :popcorn:

And, (b) If you were a boss at Rigol, would you risk being caught doing something like that? It would be the end of the company.
Doing a firmware analysis is infinitely easier than stabbing around in the blind trying to hit something. And if you are worried about b): Huawei and ZTE still exist.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on November 19, 2018, 05:22:53 am
Hi there,

Batronix (Germany) sells the MSO5074 for 1069€, a Options Bundle (excluding Bandwith) for 713€ - With a look on the technical data of this newbie, appx 1800€ seems not too expensive.
Compare it with my former favorite, RTB2004, it´s a little bit more than half the price of it (2200€ for 70Mhz plus optionbundle).
Therefore I think I will give the new Rigol a try....or should I wait....
Actual, Batronix offer the 1000Z Models with all Options including, maybe this will happen too for the MSO5000, but when...
I did a request for it by Batronix, also I ask them for the missing HiRes Mode, if there is a Firmware Update in Progress.
First answer, they will ask Rigol…

Martin
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 19, 2018, 05:47:56 am
is anybody interested on the logic channels (adding the logic probe)?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on November 19, 2018, 06:01:03 am
I'd wait at least until there's either a free options bundle or it's clear whether there will be a hack. Since 70MHz bandwidth is a bit of a joke and the prizes for the frequency upgrades are crazy.
Besides, given that all other Rigol scopes including the DS7000 currently get all the decoders for free, the MSO5000 line seems less attractive.
E.g. currently the price difference between an MSO5014 with options bundle and a DS7014 with (free) options bundle is less than 600€.

Anyway, while the 8GS/s sample rate is really tempting, I guess you'll be happier with the RTB in the long run. Rigol has a bad history regarding firmware updates etc. and the magnified low voltage scales make it even worse compared to the 10bit sampling of the RTB. I personally hate that both, DS5000 and RTB2000 don't have a probe detection/supply. I mean I could live without probe supply, but a scope without probe detection feels like going back to the middle ages.

Batronix (Germany) sells the MSO5074 for 1069€, a Options Bundle (excluding Bandwith) for 713€ - With a look on the technical data of this newbie, appx 1800€ seems not too expensive.
Compare it with my former favorite, RTB2004, it´s a little bit more than half the price of it (2200€ for 70Mhz plus optionbundle).
Therefore I think I will give the new Rigol a try....or should I wait....
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 19, 2018, 06:11:42 am
Anyway, while the 8GS/s sample rate is really tempting, I guess you'll be happier with the RTB in the long run. Rigol has a bad history regarding firmware updates etc. and the magnified low voltage scales make it even worse compared to the 10bit sampling of the RTB. I personally hate that both, DS5000 and RTB2000 don't have a probe detection/supply. I mean I could live without probe supply, but a scope without probe detection feels like going back to the middle ages.

The lack of probe detection is one of the reasons I think this 'scope might not be too hard to hack, ie. in a professional environment the missing features mean a hacked DS5000 still won't compete with other mid-range Rigol scopes.

It would kill their DS2000 range, yes, but maybe Siglent/Keysight already did that and this is Rigol's Siglent/Keysight killer.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on November 19, 2018, 06:36:29 am
In our testfield, most of the scopes are from Lecroy with the ability of Auto-Detection.
If I use a suitable probe, it´s a nice feature - Otherwise I´ll set the gain manually, it takes a few seconds more to do that.
Or are there another benefits I don´t know them until now ?
It seems, it´s very important to have this.

@0xdeadbeef :

The RTB is my favorite, but for private actions it´s too expensive ( for me).

Martin

Edit:

Quote
is anybody interested on the logic channels (adding the logic probe)?


I won´t use them even it would be included.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on November 19, 2018, 08:01:02 am
E.g. currently the price difference between an MSO5014 with options bundle and a DS7014 with (free) options bundle is less than 600€.

Oh, haven´t seen this offer (DSO 7000 with all options for free), did a reply to Batronix a few minutes before with a mark to this - With all options included the price would be hot for the 5000 series.
70Mhz BW I don´t care about it, more important would be the fix of an missing Hi-Res Mode.
Even my Siglent Scope have an enhanced resolution mode, Rigol have to fix it for the 5000/7000 series.
What I like on our LeCroy scopes are the displaying of PWM Signals "slow" and the free choosable measuring gate - I´m curious about it, if the Rigol have this too.



Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 19, 2018, 09:55:14 am
After prohibiting reading out the flash, the next logical step is encrypting firmware images. Sothe bootblock decrypts the image while reading. And since you can't read out the bootblock, you can't access the key for decoding. When an RSA/AES encryption with sufficient key length is used, this approach is pretty much bullet proof.
I'm wondering if Rigol is allowed to use AES encryption on the firmware. There might be export restrictions. I'm pretty sure the NSA and similar security agencies will want to examine the firmware for any hidden forms of cyber attack.


AES encryption is a publiclly available algorithm, so, not sure how export restrictions stop anything.   The Xilinx chipset that is running the CPU is made in Taiwan.    The NSA last time i looked did'nt have much power in taiwan.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 19, 2018, 10:01:25 am
We're not talking about flash on an MCU here, but a seperate flash chip, which may be accessable using boundary scan port on the device connected to it.
If the flash is connected to an FPGA, you could load a bitstream into the FPGA to read the flash and spit it out serially
Ah, OK, in my field of work (automotive/engine control), external flash hasn't been used since ages. So i must admit didn't think of this approach. Still, I would think in the 21st century someone came up with an approach to prevent an attack on the flash, specifically if the device is Linux based and the flash contains a file system. Like you could use an encrypted file system and store the decryption key in protected microcontroller flash or whatever.

If they have encrypted the data on the flash. ( which is stock standard for how you protect your IP ), then being able to read it,  wont' help you.  You would need the private keys to decode it.   if they are using eFUSEs then they probably have blown the fuse so you cna't read the eFUSE registers either.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on November 19, 2018, 10:09:15 am
Hm, why would you think that I didn't get what encryption is for? Actually you seem to repeat more or less what I wrote. Sometimes you wonder...

Still, I would think in the 21st century someone came up with an approach to prevent an attack on the flash, specifically if the device is Linux based and the flash contains a file system. Like you could use an encrypted file system and store the decryption key in protected microcontroller flash or whatever.

If they have encrypted the data on the flash. ( which is stock standard for how you protect your IP ), then being able to read it,  wont' help you.  You would need the private keys to decode it.   if they are using eFUSEs then they probably have blown the fuse so you cna't read the eFUSE registers either.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 19, 2018, 11:05:00 am
If they have encrypted the data on the flash. ( which is stock standard for how you protect your IP ), then being able to read it,  wont' help you.  You would need the private keys to decode it. 

I find no flaws in that logic, but...  is it the case?

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 19, 2018, 12:49:57 pm
Hm, why would you think that I didn't get what encryption is for? Actually you seem to repeat more or less what I wrote. Sometimes you wonder...

Sorry no offence meant or intended...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: julianhigginson on November 19, 2018, 01:55:49 pm
I'm wondering if Rigol is allowed to use AES encryption on the firmware. There might be export restrictions. I'm pretty sure the NSA and similar security agencies will want to examine the firmware for any hidden forms of cyber attack.

if by "examine" you mean "insert" then yes, I think they would love to be able to do that.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: xek on November 20, 2018, 09:20:08 am
I'm wondering if Logic Probe is just a bunch of wires and one can use this feature without actually buying the logic probe...
The socket in MSO5000 unit looks like one can just insert hand-made pins directly into the socket...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on November 20, 2018, 09:25:31 am
I remember someone mentioned active digital probe
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 20, 2018, 09:49:46 am
I remember someone mentioned active digital probe
It is active - it was warm to the touch.
Probably similar to the other units we've seen like the R&S one - comparators with differential outputs to drive the cable, and a DAC to set the threshold.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 20, 2018, 10:24:13 am
Is it too much of a strech to think that the 5000, is similar to the 7000 in terms of systems architecture...  I googled for a 7000 hack but have not seen one.

?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 20, 2018, 10:35:47 am
Is it too much of a strech to think that the 5000, is similar to the 7000 in terms of systems architecture...  I googled for a 7000 hack but have not seen one.

?
Have they sold any 7000's yet?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on November 20, 2018, 03:03:43 pm
Is it too much of a strech to think that the 5000, is similar to the 7000 in terms of systems architecture...

The general board layouts looked pretty similar. Their technology is related (Rigol's new silicon). Once one of them gets hacked, the other may soon follow.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 20, 2018, 07:03:18 pm
Is it too much of a strech to think that the 5000, is similar to the 7000 in terms of systems architecture...  I googled for a 7000 hack but have not seen one.

They have sell some first.

Nobody can hack them until they have some to play with.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Vtech on November 21, 2018, 01:34:27 am
Quote
Is it too much of a strech to think that the 5000, is similar to the 7000 in terms of systems architecture...
MSO5000 and MSO7000 looks to be nearly identical.
I think they share:
- front end chip (rigol's beta phoenicis theoretically up to 4GHz)
- ADC (MSO5000 8GS/s, MSO7000 10GS/s, MSO8000 10GS/s, most likely same chip)
- signal acquisition chip (rigol's Ankaa)
- acquisition memory 1.25GB (on Dave's teardown photos both 7k and 5k have 5 Micron MT41K128M16JT-125IT:K (code D9PSK) 128Mx16 DDR3, that means 1.25GB of memory with maximum 16GB/s throughput)
- FPGA (Spartan 6 XC6SLX9)
- Zynq7000 FPGA+dual core ARM Cortex A9
- CPU RAM memory 512MB (2x Micorn MT41K128M16JT-125 IT:K 128Mx16 DDR3, same as acquisition memory)
- CPU FLASH 1GB (1GB Micron MT29F8G08ADADAH4-IT:D (code NW225))
- intensity grading memory? (2x NETSOL S7R321882M-EC30 2Mx18 SRAM)
- Ethernet PHY (Micrel KSZ9031RNXCC, supports Gigabit Ethernet)
- USB ULPI phy (2x SMSC USB3340), MSO7000 has additional USB hub chip on the host side (USB2514B USB2.0 high speed 4-port hub)
- settings memory (winbond 25Q128JVSQ 16MB serial NOR flash)
- AWG DACs (2x AD9744 14-bit, 210MS/s DAC)
- PLL chip (2x LMX2582 5.5GHz)

On the software side they have same:
U-Boot 2014.01.Rigolee.dirty
Linux version 3.12.0-xilinx (rigolee@Jim) (gcc version 4.8.1 (Sourcery CodeBench Lite 2013.11-53) )

MSO5000 has slightly newer SMP PREEMPT patch (version #43 from July 2018 instead of version #35 from May 2018 that MSO7000 has)

I bet they are running exactly the same software.

On Electronica fairs Rigol showed also MSO8000 series scope. I remember it looks similar to MSO7000 except it is black like MSO5000. It has 10GS/s and 500M memory but I don't remember the bandwidth options. It is probably the same hardware as MSO7000 but for higher bandwidths. Unfortunately I don't have photos of it but I've found one picture on the net:
(https://static.electronicsweekly.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/07151530/Rigol-instruments-Electronica-2018.jpg)

You can see the new scope in the upper left corner of that image.

From what I saw on the fairs, UI is much more responsive on the 5k, 7k, 8k series than older Rigols. For me, the best thing is that both 5k and 7k have really fast hardware measurements. Measurements on full 500M memory take only about a second. I bet decoders also work a lot better/faster.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on November 21, 2018, 03:18:07 am

On Electronica fairs Rigol showed also MSO8000 series scope. I remember it looks similar to MSO7000 except it is black like MSO5000. It has 10GS/s and 500M memory but I don't remember the bandwidth options. It is probably the same hardware as MSO7000 but for higher bandwidths. Unfortunately I don't have photos of it but I've found one picture on the net:

8000 has 1 and 2 GHz bandwidth, also software unlockable.  I'm not sure, but it probably has 2 ADC, so sample rate doesn't drop to less than 5GS/sec per ch. That needs to be verified though.
They also said they are going to release soon new series that will go to 4GHz with 20GS/sec converters.  It seems their chipset is still being refined on a  hardware level.

5000, 7000, 8000 all have IDENTICAL software, trigger, decode and measurement capabilities. They handle measurements very fast, but UI is very laggy at the moment. Dragging things on a screen with a finger is a guessing game.. Although much fancier R&S 3000 series is just a bit faster, but not much, so they are not the only ones with that problem.

Rigol new series hardware seems solid and with plenty raw power. Software platform needs more work, both in optimization of UI speed, and in functions. It has 4 math channels but hey are on the same level of complexity as DS1000Z series.  But as I said, they seem to be in active development of platform, so they will be adding capabilities. They might add advanced math pack later and such.
That remains to be seen.

Regards,
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on November 21, 2018, 05:42:56 am
Hm, if the MSO7054 already costs ~11k€ at 500MHz, I don't dare to ask what the 1GHz MSO8000 will cost. I guess t must be like 15k€ or so at least.
Honestly, who would actually pay this amount of money for a Rigol scope - given their history of not even getting the PLL right, lack of firmware updates, cheapish parts in the power supply, weird support etc. ???
E.g. the LeCroy WS 3104Z is around 12k€ (including VAT) and companies usually pay much less or get free extras (decoders etc.) if they order directly at Lecroy.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 21, 2018, 06:30:25 am
Hm, if the MSO7054 already costs ~11k€ at 500MHz, I don't dare to ask what the 1GHz MSO8000 will cost. I guess t must be like 15k€ or so at least.
Honestly, who would actually pay this amount of money for a Rigol scope - given their history of not even getting the PLL right, lack of firmware updates, cheapish parts in the power supply, weird support etc. ???
E.g. the LeCroy WS 3104Z is around 12k€ (including VAT) and companies usually pay much less or get free extras (decoders etc.) if they order directly at Lecroy.
Don’t forget the WS3104Z is made by Siglent. Siglent is coming with the SDS5104X in Europe which will cost way less and much better specs than WS3000Z.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on November 21, 2018, 07:03:40 am
That's offtopic and was discussed in any possible depth before but it should be obvious for anybody that it's nonsense to think a standalone Siglent would be anyway near the result of the (unequal) cooperation with Lecroy.
Let's wait for that SDS5104X to arrive and see if it finds its niche as low cost 500MHz scope, but that's a totally different story.

The only thing here that somewhat matters for the Rigol 7000/8000 discussion (in an MSO5000 thread ;) ) is that obviously even for the "high end" Rigol/Siglent scopes, a probe connection is worth much less than the probe connection of a Lecroy, Agilent or Tektronix scope. Since who really wants to buy an active/current/differential probe from Rigol or Siglent?

Don’t forget the WS3104Z is made by Siglent. Siglent is coming with the SDS5104X in Europe which will cost way less and much better specs than WS3000Z.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: asmi on November 21, 2018, 07:33:42 am
The only thing here that somewhat matters for the Rigol 7000/8000 discussion (in an MSO5000 thread ;) ) is that obviously even for the "high end" Rigol/Siglent scopes, a probe connection is worth much less than the probe connection of a Lecroy, Agilent or Tektronix scope. Since who really wants to buy an active/current/differential probe from Rigol or Siglent?
I do, as I don't really feel like wasting money on massively overpriced products from "A" brands just so some random dude from the Internet would be happy.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 21, 2018, 07:36:17 am
Fine, I agree with your point about active/current/differential probes. In fact the cost like or more than the oscilloscope we are talking about.
The point is that in recent years the price of oscilloscopes has dropped but not the price of the probes. in fact (for example) Micsig has had a good success with the differential probes, but for high performance and current probes we are still far away. maybe there is more technology in the probes than in the oscilloscopes? we will see what will happen in the coming years and who will be the first manufacturer that will bring true professional probes to the market at a price that is accessible to everyone.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on November 21, 2018, 07:45:03 am
The point is that used Tektronix/Agilent/Keysight/Lecroy probes can be found for a fraction of the original price and thus having an according probe connector is worth a lot. There is no market for used Rigol/Siglent active probes though and most probably there won't be one in the next years if ever.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on November 21, 2018, 07:48:56 am
That's offtopic and was discussed in any possible depth before but it should be obvious for anybody that it's nonsense to think a standalone Siglent would be anyway near the result of the (unequal) cooperation with Lecroy.
And you overlook how Rigol got started with a similar relationship with a A brand manufacturer ?  :-//

Quote
Since who really wants to buy an active/current/differential probe from Rigol or Siglent?
So you're not aware they come from a 3rd party supplier just like many of the probes from A brands ?


Things aren't always as they seem.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on November 21, 2018, 08:07:07 am
And you overlook how Rigol got started with a similar relationship with a A brand manufacturer ?  :-//
I don't. Yet nobody by his/her senses would think that Rigol has reached the level of Keysight yet in terms of quality, reliability, service, etc.
Just Rigol needs to realize that there is a long way to go looking at their prizes.

Quote
So you're not aware they come from a 3rd party supplier just like many of the probes from A brands ?
That's partly true for the new or low level stuff, usually not for the older or very expensive probes. Even the newer branded probes tend to have different specs than free market versions. Whatever that means.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on November 21, 2018, 08:24:12 am
And you overlook how Rigol got started with a similar relationship with a A brand manufacturer ?  :-//
I don't. Yet nobody by his/her senses would think that Rigol has reached the level of Keysight yet in terms of quality, reliability, service, etc.
Just Rigol needs to realize that there is a long way to go looking at their prizes.
Yeah, just like it took the A brands some decades to get where they are today and it's taken the B and C brands little more than one decade.

So you're not aware they come from a 3rd party supplier just like many of the probes from A brands ?
That's partly true for the new or low level stuff, usually not for the older or very expensive probes. Even the newer branded probes tend to have different specs than free market versions. Whatever that means.
Agreed.
Fan of the old Tek passive current probes myself.....no bloody proprietary connector !
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on November 21, 2018, 08:26:53 am
I don't. Yet nobody by his/her senses would think that Rigol has reached the level of Keysight yet in terms of quality, reliability, service, etc.
Just Rigol needs to realize that there is a long way to go looking at their prizes.

I would argue that quality and reliability is on par with A brands.
They don't have features (math, analysis, PC software that is subpar), and they don't have marketing and what I call deep support (support in solutions and such).
Not even all A brands have ecosystem as developed as Keysight.

And for prices, what's with all the fuss? Prices ar funny animals, they go down easy, and then won't go up even if product is worth it. Once you drop prices and customers see you can work at that price point, they will punish you if you try to rise prices, even if it was fair increase. That is why you come out with a new product with prices that are higher and then you see how well it does, what competition does and adjust it on the fly...

I personally thing new series from Rigol are not finished products, options and function vise. They will probably develop them further, how much and how well remains to be seen.
And also remains to be seen how will prices move. Last time, it was Siglent that forced them to to drop prices for 1000Z and to include all protocols.. And Siglent 5000 series will compete with 7000 and 8000. And games continue..
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 21, 2018, 08:45:52 am
Rigol = Hackable.  Thats there value proposition.  If they have removed that in the 5000/7000 then  they are no longer interesting and will onto another keysight.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on November 21, 2018, 08:47:00 am
Actually, Lecroy offers two new Lowcost Models in their portfolio.
Both are from Siglent, they put a LeCroy Sticker on it and double the Price....Class A Brand.. ;)
Today I play around with my SDS-1104XE from Siglent - Enhanced Resolution like the LeCroys, stable PWM visibility and a free adjustable measuring-gate….Big Points, even if you own a LeCroy WS 3000 Series scope.
We own one since 01/2018.
It´s slow, it freezes sometimes and do not have a free adjustable measuring-gate.
A shame for a so called Class-A Brand.
I´m very curious about the 5000 Rigol if this one can beat the tiny Siglent SDS 1104 which impress me much so far.
By the way, many LeCroy Products were/are labelled 3rd Party Brands, like Entry-Level Scopes or Measure Accesoires like Differential Probes.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Towger on November 21, 2018, 09:19:33 am


I don't. Yet nobody by his/her senses would think that Rigol has reached the level of Keysight yet in terms of quality, reliability, service, etc.

I would argue that quality and reliability is on par with A brands.

With all the reports of faulty memory on the current range of Keysight scopes.  I would argue that Rigols are actually more reliable!
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on November 21, 2018, 09:33:51 am
Agreed.

Then again I don't think there is such a thing as a reliable scope out there from my experience :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 21, 2018, 09:38:28 am
Agreed.

Then again I don't think there is such a thing as a reliable scope out there from my experience :)
What's more important is how companies deal with issues.
Keysight fixed the memory issue and I believe will also fix any out-of-warranty scopes with this issue free.
AFAIK Keysight also recalibrate any scopes that pass through their repair dept.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 21, 2018, 09:57:16 am
The only thing here that somewhat matters for the Rigol 7000/8000 discussion (in an MSO5000 thread ;) ) is that obviously even for the "high end" Rigol/Siglent scopes, a probe connection is worth much less than the probe connection of a Lecroy, Agilent or Tektronix scope. Since who really wants to buy an active/current/differential probe from Rigol or Siglent?
I do, as I don't really feel like wasting money on massively overpriced products from "A" brands just so some random dude from the Internet would be happy.
But the equipment from the A-brands works and if there are teething problems it gets fixed even if it means taking a boat load of devices back. I'm done buying B-brands after being burned a couple of times already. At some point I run into the limitations which require me to buy the A-brand equipment anyway.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on November 21, 2018, 10:06:38 am
Agreed.

Then again I don't think there is such a thing as a reliable scope out there from my experience :)
What's more important is how companies deal with issues.
Keysight fixed the memory issue and I believe will also fix any out-of-warranty scopes with this issue free.
AFAIK Keysight also recalibrate any scopes that pass through their repair dept.

That is exactly it. One of the joys with Keysight is being able to just phone up Keysight, at least here in the UK and have someone helpful instantly. The three times I've had to call them they have been perfect. Can't say that for any other vendors.

Also if you rely on the kit, work on the basis that it will fail the day after the warranty expires and any time it lasts after that is a financial blessing :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 21, 2018, 07:16:04 pm
What's more important is how companies deal with issues.
Keysight fixed the memory issue and I believe will also fix any out-of-warranty scopes with this issue free.

Siglent were very responsive sending out little bags of capacitors to customers after they forgot to to put them inside the 'scopes.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 22, 2018, 03:56:37 am
I'm wondering if Logic Probe is just a bunch of wires and one can use this feature without actually buying the logic probe...
The socket in MSO5000 unit looks like one can just insert hand-made pins directly into the socket...

The logic probe head almost always includes something like a differential line receiver for each signal to drive the low impedance cable back to the oscilloscope.  In older ones, this was commonly an FET buffer followed by a comparator.

The only real trick with this is that high input impedance comparators are a contradiction so full integration is difficult or impossible so separate buffering and comparator stages are required for a high impedance input.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on November 22, 2018, 04:07:58 am
I'm wondering if Rigol is allowed to use AES encryption on the firmware. There might be export restrictions. I'm pretty sure the NSA and similar security agencies will want to examine the firmware for any hidden forms of cyber attack.

AES encryption is a publiclly available algorithm, so, not sure how export restrictions stop anything.   The Xilinx chipset that is running the CPU is made in Taiwan.    The NSA last time i looked did'nt have much power in taiwan.

The US Commerce Department handles export permits for products containing encryption but that has nothing to do with imports which is why so many products which use encryption moved development outside of the US.  As far as I know, this applies to products using AES.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: asmi on November 22, 2018, 04:46:52 am
But the equipment from the A-brands works and if there are teething problems it gets fixed even if it means taking a boat load of devices back. I'm done buying B-brands after being burned a couple of times already. At some point I run into the limitations which require me to buy the A-brand equipment anyway.
I never had any issues with "B" brands' equipment, and in any case would never waste money on overpriced stuff from "A" brands - it least until prices become reasonable.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: lukier on November 22, 2018, 04:53:48 am
The US Commerce Department handles export permits for products containing encryption but that has nothing to do with imports which is why so many products which use encryption moved development outside of the US.  As far as I know, this applies to products using AES.

I'm not 100% sure, but it is probably not only US DoC, Wassenaar Arrangement also puts some constraints on cypto and it was ratified by much more countries than just the US.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 22, 2018, 05:32:21 am
I'm wondering if Logic Probe is just a bunch of wires and one can use this feature without actually buying the logic probe...
The socket in MSO5000 unit looks like one can just insert hand-made pins directly into the socket...

Short answer: no.

It's much more than wires in the little add-on box, they're full of comparators, controller chips, voltage references, etc.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 22, 2018, 06:14:51 am
But the equipment from the A-brands works and if there are teething problems it gets fixed even if it means taking a boat load of devices back. I'm done buying B-brands after being burned a couple of times already. At some point I run into the limitations which require me to buy the A-brand equipment anyway.
I never had any issues with "B" brands' equipment, and in any case would never waste money on overpriced stuff from "A" brands - it least until prices become reasonable.
Then you never have handled a good tool. Like I wrote: I got burned a few times already. The latest example is needing a good function generator which can synchronise two outputs for real. The B-brands only work for 90%. Great if you only need 90% but when you need the last 10% then it is going to cost you money twice.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: asmi on November 22, 2018, 08:44:44 am
but when you need the last 10% then it is going to cost you money twice.
Nope, I will find a way to make do with the tools I have. I pay for that stuff with my own money, and not a single cent from my wallet will ever go to "A" brands until they change their pricing policy. And no, I don't buy used stuff as a matter of principle.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on November 22, 2018, 08:56:45 am
Quote
The latest example is needing a good function generator which can synchronise two outputs for real.

Hm?


If I set one channel with "Align Phase" (Siglent/Rigol Function Generator), on the scope there´s no deviation between the 2 channels visible..and measureable (with scope).

Otherwise, a Lecroy WavePro scope has an deviation (timebase)of 1ppm/year, the "biggest" "Class-B" Scopes reaching 25ppm....seems really worse against the WavePro - but it´s always a matter of what You really need in the case.
As a hobbyist…
Professionals do not mind the budget.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 22, 2018, 09:08:19 am
Quote
The latest example is needing a good function generator which can synchronise two outputs for real.

Hm?

If I set one channel with "Align Phase" (Siglent/Rigol Function Generator), on the scope there´s no deviation between the 2 channels visible..and measureable (with scope).
Well there are B-brand generators out there which can't do that despite having such a setting. My specific purpose is to simulate 10MHz and 1 PPS signal like it comes from a time reference.

@asmi: that is great but at some point you'll realise 'making do' takes time away from doing something meaningful and makes getting where you want to go less enjoyable.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: jCandlish on November 22, 2018, 06:36:22 pm
I'm expecting they will plug that gap after having to give away so much functionality on the 1000z.

Huh? You don't think they "allowed" it? It wouldn't have sold otherwise.

The previous generation worked the same way (DS1052E was hackable).

Rigol could very easily make life miserable for anybody publishing information on how to circumvent their crypto under the DCMA.

Recovering a hidden private key is more fun than spending time in the legal system.

.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 22, 2018, 07:59:52 pm
I'm expecting they will plug that gap after having to give away so much functionality on the 1000z.

Huh? You don't think they "allowed" it? It wouldn't have sold otherwise.

The previous generation worked the same way (DS1052E was hackable).

Rigol could very easily make life miserable for anybody publishing information on how to circumvent their crypto under the DCMA.

Depends where that info is hosted.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 22, 2018, 08:17:31 pm
Rigol could very easily make life miserable for anybody publishing information on how to circumvent their crypto under the DCMA.

Really? The entire legal weight of the MAFIAA hasn't managed to shut down The Pirate Bay yet.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on November 22, 2018, 08:24:38 pm
Someone will just keep posting it on pastebin or something anyway. Good luck killing that :-//

DMCA is mostly only useful for search delisting. And you can look at the recorded DMCA complaints on the bottom of the Google page, open them up and see the listed URLs anyway.  :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: jCandlish on November 22, 2018, 09:24:26 pm
Rigol could very easily make life miserable for anybody publishing information on how to circumvent their crypto under the DCMA.

Really? The entire legal weight of the MAFIAA hasn't managed to shut down The Pirate Bay yet.

In spite of making life a living hell for many they chose to prosecute.



Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: asmi on November 23, 2018, 02:14:22 am
@asmi: that is great but at some point you'll realise 'making do' takes time away from doing something meaningful and makes getting where you want to go less enjoyable.
No, I like challenges, besides even now I'm working with MGT links running at 6Gbps, and I will never be able to afford TE that can work at that kind of frequency.
What I don't understand is if you aren't interested in "B" brands' equipment - why you're ever present in threads discussing them? Is it some kind of self-torture, or subconsciously you do think that you did wasted money on "A" brands stuff so you need to keep trashing "B" brands to mute that inner voice of reason? ;D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on November 23, 2018, 06:19:43 am
@asmi: that is great but at some point you'll realise 'making do' takes time away from doing something meaningful and makes getting where you want to go less enjoyable.
No, I like challenges, besides even now I'm working with MGT links running at 6Gbps, and I will never be able to afford TE that can work at that kind of frequency.
What I don't understand is if you aren't interested in "B" brands' equipment - why you're ever present in threads discussing them? Is it some kind of self-torture, or subconsciously you do think that you did wasted money on "A" brands stuff so you need to keep trashing "B" brands to mute that inner voice of reason? ;D
No, just interested in what is coming up next and warn people not to get overly excited about the price on the sticker for something which looks cheaper on paper but turns out to be a dud. However at some point the B-brands have to catch up. That is taking longer than expected and it seems that competing on price isn't going to happen anyway (look at Rigol's MSO7000 pricing). It takes a lot of engineering to create a decent piece of equipment and sales volumes aren't very high.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on November 26, 2018, 09:08:02 am
Still waiting of an answer from Batronix…
It makes no sense that all options are for free till 12/31/2018 for the 7000 series, but for the 5000 not.
I´m very curious about some abilities of the Rigol 5000..
Can they display a PWM pulse stable (Rigol 1054Z doesn´t), do they have a free adjustable measure-gate, are the serial decoding functions hardware-based, will a Hi-Res/Enhanced Resolution Mode via firmware update come soon or ever, can they display the math function only ( even really old LeCroy models can do it)....
If they fulfill this requirements, I won´t care of the Mickey Mouse Design....(yes it is).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 26, 2018, 03:17:50 pm
how is the hacking effort going?  Im going to pick one up in the USA in Jan.  I've not done any reverse engineering like this before, but i suspect this is going to be signifincatly harder than the earlier models.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: supercilious on November 26, 2018, 08:26:55 pm
Does anyone have any information about the ethernet or USB connectivity speed? How fast is the scope at transferring the 100M samples to a PC via SCPI or some other interface? This has been a huge bottleneck for Rigol instruments in the past.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: julianhigginson on November 26, 2018, 08:56:57 pm
Still waiting of an answer from Batronix…
It makes no sense that all options are for free till 12/31/2018 for the 7000 series, but for the 5000 not.

1) the 7000 is about 3x the cost of the 5000
2) the 5000 has a bundle deal that gives you, like, everything. For not much more than the cost of one upgrade... While the 7000 paid upgrade situation is way more expensive.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 26, 2018, 08:59:38 pm
The RIGOL MSO5000-BND function and application bundle option includes for EURO 599 + VAT
MSO5000-COMP PC serial bus trigger and analysis (RS232/UART)
MSO5000-EMBD Embedded serial bus trigger and analysis (I2C and SPI)
MSO5000-AUTO Auto serial bus trigger and analysis (CAN and LIN)
MSO5000-FLEX FlexRay serial bus trigger and analysis (FlexRay)
MSO5000-AUDIO Audio serial bus trigger and analysis (I2S) 4 channels models only
MSO5000-AERO MIL-STD-1553 serial bus trigger and analysis (MIL-STD-1553)
MSO5000-AWG Dual-channel 25 MHz arbitrary waveform generator
MSO5000-PWR Built-in Power Analysis
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on November 27, 2018, 05:08:56 am
And again, all of this is free for the DS7000/MSO7000 (https://www.rigolna.com/promos/) at the moment.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 27, 2018, 05:09:54 am
And again, all of this is free for the DS7000/MSO7000 (https://www.rigolna.com/promos/) at the moment.
yes till the end of the year
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: julianhigginson on November 27, 2018, 11:01:19 pm
And again, all of this is free for the DS7000/MSO7000 (https://www.rigolna.com/promos/) at the moment.
Well yeah... You mean, for 3x the price of the equivalent 5000 plus the paid for bundle...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on November 28, 2018, 05:39:19 am
I'm not quite sure what your "3x price" statement is based on, but as stated before, the price difference between an MSO5014 with options bundle (1307.81€+712.81€=2020.62€) and a DS7014 with (free) options bundle (2616.81€) is less than 600€ (596.19€). You might argue that the DS7014 isn't an MSO, but actually the MSO5014 isn't really either, as the probe has to be bought separately (355.81€).

And again, all of this is free for the DS7000/MSO7000 (https://www.rigolna.com/promos/) at the moment.
Well yeah... You mean, for 3x the price of the equivalent 5000 plus the paid for bundle...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 28, 2018, 05:40:53 am
I'm not quite sure what your "3x price" statement is based on, but as stated before, the price difference between an MSO5014 with options bundle (1307.81€+712.81€=2020.62€) and a DS7014 with (free) options bundle (2616.81€) is less than 600€ (596.19€). You might argue that the DS7014 isn't an MSO, but actually the MSO5014 isn't really either, as the probe has to be bought separately (355.81€).

And again, all of this is free for the DS7000/MSO7000 (https://www.rigolna.com/promos/) at the moment.
Well yeah... You mean, for 3x the price of the equivalent 5000 plus the paid for bundle...
DS7000 is also missing AWG channels, only available on MSO7000
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on November 28, 2018, 05:55:42 am
True. Yet IMHO built-in AWGs are usually somewhat gimmicky (typically only 5V and a few kSa memory) and nothing I would put pay any considerable amount of money for.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 28, 2018, 05:57:34 am
can be useful when bode plot feature is available
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on November 29, 2018, 06:56:05 am
The Siglent SDS 1104X-E does have the bode plot function (only in combination with Sigelent Generators).

News from Batronix/Rigol:

Batronix told me, the missing Hi-Res Mode on 5000/7000 is known and would be fixed, probably..
I also did a request by Rigol/Germany if there is a promotion offer planned for the 5000 just like by the 7000.
Today´s  answer was no, there were no offers planned for the MSO 5000 series.
Anyway, I´ve ordered a MSO5074, should arrive in 2-3 days.
The option bundle will be ordered when I´m confident with the scope.



Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 29, 2018, 07:07:33 am
I think you will enjoy the MSO5. It’s a great instrument. We already delivered many units and so far no “trouble”. Let us know your opinion when you get it!
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on November 29, 2018, 08:12:03 am
The Siglent SDS 1104X-E does have the bode plot function (only in combination with Sigelent Generators).
Officially yes.

But behind the scenes:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-and-sds1204x-e-bode-plot-with-non-siglent-awg/ (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-and-sds1204x-e-bode-plot-with-non-siglent-awg/)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on November 29, 2018, 08:23:07 am
Quote
Let us know your opinion when you get it!

I think, I´ll test it at work (Testfield technician) - much more capabilities as at home.
My impressions will be written here.

Quote
But behind the scenes:

Ahhh...why it doesn´t wonder me.... :D
I bought a Siglent awg…  ::)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 29, 2018, 08:59:10 am
I think you will enjoy the MSO5. It’s a great instrument. We already delivered many units and so far no “trouble”. Let us know your opinion when you get it!

I would enjoy it if it is hackable? Do you know if it can be done.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TopLoser on November 29, 2018, 09:08:52 am
I think you will enjoy the MSO5. It’s a great instrument. We already delivered many units and so far no “trouble”. Let us know your opinion when you get it!

I would enjoy it if it is hackable? Do you know if it can be done.

There’s one on my desk I don’t mind opening up and doing whatever anybody suggests to investigate further...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on November 29, 2018, 09:23:19 am
True. Yet IMHO built-in AWGs are usually somewhat gimmicky (typically only 5V and a few kSa memory) and nothing I would put pay any considerable amount of money for.


The rigol awg : 5Vpp/2.5pp at 50ohms, THD Sinewave 1% - My Siglent awg stays here…

@TopLoser:

Which model do you have ?
Maybe you see a difference to yours in Dave´s teardown vid (350Mhz)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TopLoser on November 29, 2018, 10:11:12 am
@TopLoser:

Which model do you have ?
Maybe you see a difference to yours in Dave´s teardown vid (350Mhz)

4 channel 70MHz, bought from Batter Fly when they had a 10% discount.

I’m sure there won’t be a hardware difference otherwise the licence upgrades to 350MHz wouldn’t be feasible? But I can look.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 29, 2018, 12:41:28 pm
I think you will enjoy the MSO5. It’s a great instrument. We already delivered many units and so far no “trouble”. Let us know your opinion when you get it!

I would enjoy it if it is hackable? Do you know if it can be done.

I'm curious too, any updates yet?
Does a license file and serial number help any hackers out there with RE? ;D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: FERCSA on November 29, 2018, 12:59:04 pm
I'm curious too, any updates yet?
Does a license file and serial number help any hackers out there with RE? ;D

Sure! If someone takes the time and rip the fw to pieces, the licence file can be integrated or just changing the SN, then manually apply the licence.. it should be doable.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 29, 2018, 05:56:43 pm
I think you will enjoy the MSO5. It’s a great instrument. We already delivered many units and so far no “trouble”. Let us know your opinion when you get it!

I would enjoy it if it is hackable? Do you know if it can be done.

I'm curious too, any updates yet?
Does a license file and serial number help any hackers out there with RE? ;D

given the FPGA they have in there, they could be using secure code, and the licence file may be encrypted.   What does the license file look like?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 30, 2018, 08:40:33 am
Bug Bonanza

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDGsZcAWgL8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDGsZcAWgL8)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Hydrawerk on November 30, 2018, 09:08:12 am
I would prefer a red, green, blue and yellow trace. Why is there a pink trace???
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on November 30, 2018, 09:12:46 am
Bug Bonanza

Thanks for the vid Dave, hope the Rigol guys see it too….
What FW Version you got ?
My 5000 will arrive on Saturday, so I can compare with it.

(Edit: After posting there´s no fallback to the thread, that´s irritating)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on November 30, 2018, 09:14:38 am
I would prefer a red, green, blue and yellow trace. Why is there a pink trace???

Because we are inclusive.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 30, 2018, 09:23:03 am
People ask about differences between 'A' brand and 'B' brand scopes. That video sums it up pretty well. Poor attention to detail. Mostly not even bugs, just bad design - copying competitors without really understanding what's important.
How did anyone think that decode display makes sense? - useless "D:" marks wasting over half the screen space, unuseably small gaps between logic channels, nonfunctional colour selection, poor UI choices (label entry).
 
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 30, 2018, 09:42:29 am
What FW Version you got ?

I show it in the video at 33:21
1.01.02.03
Hardware 1.00.000
I had later firmware but could not figure out how to load it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: EEVblog on November 30, 2018, 09:48:09 am
People ask about differences between 'A' brand and 'B' brand scopes. That video sums it up pretty well. Poor attention to detail. Mostly not even bugs, just bad design - copying competitors without really understanding what's important.
How did anyone think that decode display makes sense? - useless "D:" marks wasting over half the screen space, unuseably small gaps between logic channels, nonfunctional colour selection, poor UI choices (label entry).

Yep, and this is just the stuff I happened to play with.
Started the video wanting to show some features, but I kept finding little niggly things everywhere.
More advanced scopes like these need a lot of attention to detail in software, and it's a huge job.
I hope it gets better.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on November 30, 2018, 09:49:24 am
Quote
Mostly not even bugs, just bad design

That´s the point, bugs are everywhere.

For example LeCroy Wavesurfer 3000 series….many FW updates so far, although it´s a "A" - brand.

Teledyne told me once, this is a value scope and this describe it very well.

Have a look on the prices for it...for Lecroy it´s cheap stuff.
For Rigol and Co. this would be the top of the end.
And that´s it.
It´s hobbyist class.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: orion242 on November 30, 2018, 02:26:58 pm
bugs are everywhere.

Yea wow.

Unless they fix things, even if its hackable...do you really want to always second guess your gear?  Looks like an endless time suck to save a few bucks...

Thanks for the videos Dave!
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on November 30, 2018, 02:28:42 pm
Might be OK in two or three years. Then again, there's the 4000/6000 track record. :-//
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Bud on November 30, 2018, 03:21:49 pm
It´s hobbyist class.

My hobby time is valuable as i do not have much time for it. Therefore i  never buy chinese garbage. When hobbying i want to focus on my circuit, not waste my life fighting with this piece of shit.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Monkeh on November 30, 2018, 03:56:20 pm
It´s hobbyist class.

My hobby time is valuable as i do not have much time for it. Therefore i  never buy chinese garbage. When hobbying i want to focus on my circuit, not waste my life fighting with this piece of shit.

You're quite happy to waste your life flaming them every chance you get, though.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 30, 2018, 09:40:30 pm
I would prefer a red, green, blue and yellow trace. Why is there a pink trace???

Because "engineering".

a) It's magenta, not pink.

b) The first three colors are yellow, cyan, magenta because they're the three most visible colors on an RGB screen.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on November 30, 2018, 10:13:23 pm
What FW Version you got ?

It's in the video: 01.01.02.03

(which seems like an early, pre-release number to me)

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TopLoser on December 01, 2018, 03:13:17 am
What FW Version you got ?

It's in the video: 01.01.02.03

(which seems like an early, pre-release number to me)

That's the version scopes are shipping with.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 01, 2018, 04:43:06 am
(which seems like an early, pre-release number to me)

That's the version scopes are shipping with.

Well, that's the way of managers/bosses.  :-//

Let's hope the first update won't take long.

(And no, it's not just Rigol that does this, every 'scope released in recent memory seems to do the same)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 01, 2018, 04:55:08 am
So..
This piece of sh...ehhh.. rigol has arrived  ;)
I will give it time to acclimate to room temperature..
Looks bigger as in Daves vid, well build, all in all it makes me curious for the first use.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 01, 2018, 07:25:07 am
Quote
That's the version scopes are shipping with.

Yep, got the same version...And yes, it must be a very early version:
Some functions are not avaible and "greyed out", perhaps functional with an option/firmware upgrade, seems normal to me.
BUT:
"Options Install", "Online Upgrade" and "Local Upgrade" are also deactivated... :-//


By the way, display looks nice, FFT can be displayed alone, boot time is looong, fan is annoying.
But my first impressions are mostly positive, will take it to work on monday, for real testing.


Edit:

For the "wishlist" : Waveform output format: Only .bin and .csv avaible, Mathlab and Mathcad must be added....hopefully








Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: thm_w on December 01, 2018, 08:06:46 am
Hopefully these bugs will be fixable, but its almost all in the logic analyzer, which honestly I don't care much about. As Dave says, for $400, you can get a much nicer PC based unit.

For the "wishlist" : Waveform output format: Only .bin and .csv avaible, Mathlab and Mathcad must be added....hopefully

You can import csv into matlab though.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 01, 2018, 09:04:37 am
Ah, ok.
Saw it on our Wavesurfer 3024, you can choose between csv, bin, matlab, matcad - and then, between frequency or amplitude or both...nice to have.

Quote
Hopefully these bugs will be fixable, but its almost all in the logic analyzer, which honestly I don't care much about


Me too, in case of the logic analyzer, but proper decoding of for example SPI will be important for me/us.
Further the missing Hi-Res Mode, but we shouldn´t forget the fact, this scope is really new, maybe too early released.
Rigol let the customer find out the bugs...
And they´re not alone with this policy.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: glenenglish on December 02, 2018, 09:04:43 am
Considering that this is a pre production release, and beta software, this is a pretty good result.
The sample rate is the big diff to other scopes. High sample rate rules for looking at glitches and bus fights
High sample rates help the diagnosis of bus fights .

I strenuously disagree with the assertion in the video that the R&S might be a better value proposition.
No chance ! Dave how  (the hell) did you formulate this idea ?

The sample rate is king. 4Gsps in 2ch mode, 2Gsps in four channel mode puts this scope into the realms of the big boys.

R&S RTM3004 :  4 channel mode SR is 2.5Gsps USD4250. Rigol USD1500 at 2 Gsps

R&S RTB2000 :4 channel mode SR is  1.25 Gsps USD2400. Rigol USD1500 at 2 Gsps.

I have ordered a 100 MHz one from Emona, they have 70 and 100 MHz scopes in their first shipment.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 02, 2018, 09:39:01 am
Considering that this is a pre production release, and beta software, this is a pretty good result.
The sample rate is the big diff to other scopes. High sample rate rules for looking at glitches and bus fights
High sample rates help the diagnosis of bus fights .

I strenuously disagree with the assertion in the video that the R&S might be a better value proposition.
No chance ! Dave how  (the hell) did you formulate this idea ?
The sample rate is king. 4Gsps in 2ch mode, 2Gsps in four channel mode puts this scope into the realms of the big boys.
Not really. The limited bandwidth kills a spike long before you see it being sampled. No matter what the samplerate is, ultimately the bandwidth dictates what you see and what you don't see. Having an excessively high samplerate just fills the memory quicker with data which has no additional information. For sin x/x reconstruction to work a samplerate of 2.5 times the bandwidth is enough. If you sample any faster you won't get any additional information.
Quote
R&S RTM3004 :  4 channel mode SR is 1.25Gsps USD4250. Rigol USD1500 at 2 Gsps

R&S RTB2000 :4 channel mode SR is  1.25 Gsps USD2400. Rigol USD1500 at 2 Gsps.

I have ordered a 100 MHz one from Emona, they have 70 and 100 MHz scopes in their first shipment.
You got the numbers wrong for the RTM3004. In 4 channel mode it has 2.5Gsps (and 1GHz bandwidth on the top model).

If you want to look at glitches and timing errors in digital systems then a used high-end logic analyser is a much better buy. It will have very high samplerates and more bandwidth for peanuts.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TheSteve on December 02, 2018, 09:42:35 am
Considering that this is a pre production release, and beta software, this is a pretty good result.
The sample rate is the big diff to other scopes. High sample rate rules for looking at glitches and bus fights
High sample rates help the diagnosis of bus fights .

I strenuously disagree with the assertion in the video that the R&S might be a better value proposition.
No chance ! Dave how  (the hell) did you formulate this idea ?

The sample rate is king. 4Gsps in 2ch mode, 2Gsps in four channel mode puts this scope into the realms of the big boys.

R&S RTM3004 :  4 channel mode SR is 1.25Gsps USD4250. Rigol USD1500 at 2 Gsps

R&S RTB2000 :4 channel mode SR is  1.25 Gsps USD2400. Rigol USD1500 at 2 Gsps.

I have ordered a 100 MHz one from Emona, they have 70 and 100 MHz scopes in their first shipment.

Dave's is the same hardware and firmware that is shipping with production models - so you can't call it pre-production or beta. Or at least you shouldn't. It is an early release that is clearly full of bugs/usability issues though.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 02, 2018, 09:53:49 am
Quote
The sample rate is king. 4Gsps in 2ch mode, 2Gsps in four channel mode puts this scope into the realms of the big boys.

The hardware seems really mighty with the price in mind, if they optimize the software, it would be a killer.
But R&S with their RTB2000 will still be my favourite under the hobbyist-scopes.
10bit resolution, the fantastic looking big display...unfortunately 2.5x the price of a MSO5074 and the options are expensive.
Rigol itself compares the 5000 against Tek and Keysight their 2000s models.



Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 02, 2018, 10:29:57 am
Quote
The sample rate is king. 4Gsps in 2ch mode, 2Gsps in four channel mode puts this scope into the realms of the big boys.

The hardware seems really mighty with the price in mind, if they optimize the software, it would be a killer.
But R&S with their RTB2000 will still be my favourite under the hobbyist-scopes.
10bit resolution, the fantastic looking big display...unfortunately 2.5x the price of a MSO5074 and the options are expensive.
Rigol itself compares the 5000 against Tek and Keysight their 2000s models.
That may be but you have to look beyond the price and do some serious testing to see if the MSO5000 meets your needs for now and in the foreseable future. And I don't mean after Rigol has fixed the bugs but right now when you can still return it with no hassle. A couple of years ago I made the mistake to trust a B-brand to fix the bugs quickly but that ended up with me having to throw 2000 euros into the trash AND pay for a working oscilloscope on top of that.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 02, 2018, 10:47:38 am
Therefore I will test it at work.

And what You say about B-brands:

LeCroy surely counts to the A´s, but their WS 3024 is the best example that the name doesn´t automatically guaranteed confidence in every way.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 02, 2018, 10:59:13 am
Therefore I will test it at work.

And what You say about B-brands:

LeCroy surely counts to the A´s, but their WS 3024 is the best example that the name doesn´t automatically guaranteed confidence in every way.
I wouldn't call Lecroy a real A-brand. The stuff Lecroy designs themselves is OK-ish (nice features but the hardware isn't always that good) but they also rebrand a lot of low-end stuff which isn't at the level you'd expect from an A-brand when it comes to the firmware. At the low end Lecroy tries to fill their portfolio so they can offer one-stop shopping. What I hear and see around me is that people buy Lecroy mostly for doing signal analysis but it is at the bottom of their list.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: lukier on December 02, 2018, 11:41:16 am
LeCroy surely counts to the A´s, but their WS 3024 is the best example that the name doesn´t automatically guaranteed confidence in every way.

I think WS3024 is really Siglent, not real LeCroy.

I wouldn't call Lecroy a real A-brand. The stuff Lecroy designs themselves is OK-ish (nice features but the hardware isn't always that good) but they also rebrand a lot of low-end stuff which isn't at the level you'd expect from an A-brand when it comes to the firmware. What I hear and see around me is that people buy Lecroy mostly for doing signal analysis but it is at the bottom of their list.

I have old WaveRunner 6100A and it is A-brand whatever it means. It is an old scope (introduced in 2004) and still running circles around most modern scopes like KS 3000/4000/6000 or R&S RTO2000/RTM3000 (before I got it I wanted to buy MSOX3014T but both distributors were rather clueless so I went to eBay instead and saved some money that I've spent on various active probes):

Probably the only drawback is the lack of real low noise FE & ADC like R&S has, although LeCroy has pretty clever 11 bit mode called ERES:
http://teledynelecroy.com/doc/differences-between-eres-and-hires (http://teledynelecroy.com/doc/differences-between-eres-and-hires)

Before the recent Keysight UXR it was LeCroy who had 100 GHz scope since 2014, so not calling it A-brand is a bit rich in my opinion.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 02, 2018, 11:51:09 am
A typical A-brand has a portfolio for which they designed most of the products themselves. Having all the intimate knowledge about the product means problems can be solved quickly. Lecroy has never done that. They design mostly high-end gear with very nice features and augment their portfolio with rebadges from other brands. The result is that they can't support all of their products in a way you'd expect from an A-brand.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: lukier on December 02, 2018, 11:57:15 am
A typical A-brand has a portfolio for which they designed most of the products themselves. Having all the intimate knowledge about the product means problems can be solved quickly. Lecroy has never done that. They design mostly high-end gear with very nice features and augment their portfolio with rebadges from other brands. The result is that they can't support all of their products in a way you'd expect from an A-brand.

I also don't get why LeCroy insists on rebadging stuff, their brand is worth more than their markup on Siglent, but it is common market trend unfortunately.

By your logic you cannot call Keithley (rebadges Itech and Picotest) or Keysight (rebadged Rigol or Preamble probes) A-brands as well.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on December 02, 2018, 12:24:43 pm
LeCroy surely counts to the A´s, but their WS 3024 is the best example that the name doesn´t automatically guaranteed confidence in every way.

I think WS3024 is really Siglent, not real LeCroy.
The LeCroy equivalent, a Siglent SDS3000 screenshot suggests otherwise:

(http://www.siglent.com/Uploadfile/image/20140725/20140725093245_5105.jpg)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: lukier on December 02, 2018, 12:34:51 pm
The LeCroy equivalent, a Siglent SDS3000 screenshot suggests otherwise:

So Siglent made the HW and LeCroy gave the X-Stream software?

Edit: it looks more LeCroy than Siglent, LeCroy SW, LeCroy probe interface, so maybe it is like it was with Iwatsu - our design, you guys manufacture that?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 02, 2018, 12:40:37 pm
A typical A-brand has a portfolio for which they designed most of the products themselves. Having all the intimate knowledge about the product means problems can be solved quickly. Lecroy has never done that. They design mostly high-end gear with very nice features and augment their portfolio with rebadges from other brands. The result is that they can't support all of their products in a way you'd expect from an A-brand.

I also don't get why LeCroy insists on rebadging stuff, their brand is worth more than their markup on Siglent, but it is common market trend unfortunately.

By your logic you cannot call Keithley (rebadges Itech and Picotest) or Keysight (rebadged Rigol or Preamble probes) A-brands as well.
You have to look at the big picture. If a company is really better at making probes then it makes more sense to rebadge. Also Keysight has stopped rebadging Rigols a long time ago. Probably due to quality control and serviceability issues.

And Keithley isn't Keithley any more. Fluke, Tektronix and Keithley (and probably a few other T&M brands) are all owned by Danaher which is primarily an investment company with short term goals. There is a lot of rebranding going on at these companies. But not with typical low-end gear like Lecroy does.

Keithley psu:
(https://www.tek.com/sites/default/files/media/image/2260B-ComboShot_SBG_5in_0.jpg)

GW Instek psu:
(https://www.gwinstek.com/upload/website/product/normal/PSW-30-108_17020613243.jpg)

The WS3000 is (AFAIK) a cooperation between Siglent and Lecroy. Siglent did the hardware, Lecroy did the software. Siglent sells them in China and Lecroy sells them in the rest of the world. The new version may be worth looking at as is seems it got a (much needed) speed upgrade. But probably no peak-detect which can bite you in the behind at lower samplerates (especially with short memory settings).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on December 02, 2018, 12:50:31 pm
The LeCroy equivalent, a Siglent SDS3000 screenshot suggests otherwise:

So Siglent made the HW and LeCroy gave the X-Stream software?
Essentially correct however right from the get go it was a collaborative effort.
As there was already a relationship with Siglent products branded as LeCroy one can only suspect LeCroy went to Siglent with a 'product spec' in mind and that resulted in the collaboration that produced the SDS3k/WS3k.
That resulted in marketing agreements so that LeCroy had western markets for WS3k models for themselves.
I even inquired about getting a SDS3k for myself but it was declined by Siglent.

Interestingly the upgraded models, SDS3kX still display an association with LeCroy on the display:

(http://www.siglent.com/Chinese_website2014/picture/SDS3000X/SDS10.jpg)

Whereas the upcoming SDS5kX models don't:

(http://www.siglent.com/Chinese_website2014/picture/SDS5000X/SDS5000X14.png)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: lukier on December 02, 2018, 01:02:36 pm
And Keithley isn't Keithley any more. Fluke, Tektronix and Keithley (and probably a few other T&M brands) are all owned by Danaher which is primarily an investment company with short term goals. There is a lot of rebranding going on at these companies.

So LeCroy is not A-brand, Keithley, Fluke and Tektronix are not Keithley anymore so it is only Keysight left then as an A-brand :D (btw, they also rebadged Escort stuff like U3400 or handheld DMMs before they acquired them).

Essentially correct however right from the get go it was a collaborative effort.
As there was already a relationship with Siglent products branded as LeCroy one can only suspect LeCroy went to Siglent with a 'product spec' in mind and that resulted in the collaboration that produced the SDS3k/WS3k.

SDS/WS3 is ARM based, right? So I guess LeCroy had to rewrite all their Windows DCOM crap that X-Stream is made of :D Probably a lot of work.

Edit: disclaimer - I have both LeCroy and Siglent (and some other). My point is that calling LeCroy B-brand is not right by a long shot. Actually, it might be a smart move, because they don't have to spend company resources on the low end stuff and can focus on the serious products.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on December 02, 2018, 02:27:58 pm
Essentially correct however right from the get go it was a collaborative effort.
As there was already a relationship with Siglent products branded as LeCroy one can only suspect LeCroy went to Siglent with a 'product spec' in mind and that resulted in the collaboration that produced the SDS3k/WS3k.

SDS/WS3 is ARM based, right? So I guess LeCroy had to rewrite all their Windows DCOM crap that X-Stream is made of :D Probably a lot of work.

Edit: disclaimer - I have both LeCroy and Siglent (and some other). My point is that calling LeCroy B-brand is not right by a long shot. Actually, it might be a smart move, because they don't have to spend company resources on the low end stuff and can focus on the serious products.
Honestly I don't know however Wuerstchenhund in this old thread about them thought they were CE based, see reply # 19:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent_s-new-products-sds3000-series-oscilloscopes/ (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent_s-new-products-sds3000-series-oscilloscopes/)

Member tv84 in this recent thread has apparently confirmed they are WinCE:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds3000-anyone-has-one/ (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds3000-anyone-has-one/)

What the new 3kX model runs for an OS is probably just the same with processor upgrades responsible for the much reduced boot times.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on December 02, 2018, 03:01:12 pm
who decides what is A brand and a B Brand.  its only in your head.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: David Hess on December 02, 2018, 03:55:37 pm
I agree with nctnico that ownership by Danaher is a good indicator of a B brand.  Given a choice, Fluke and Tektronix would not be my first choice for quality test equipment.

Keysight/Agilent/HP is still an A brand in most respects but even they outsource production of things like oscilloscope probes.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on December 02, 2018, 05:14:18 pm
who decides what is A brand and a B Brand.  its only in your head.
Yep.

I agree with nctnico that ownership by Danaher is a good indicator of a B brand.  Given a choice, Fluke and Tektronix would not be my first choice for quality test equipment.

Keysight/Agilent/HP is still an A brand in most respects but even they outsource production of things like oscilloscope probes.

What is now is only a snapshot in time. Many of us have seen the rise and fall of all manner of brands so to then well know; 'every dog has its day'.

No brands are without 'issues'......we are all still waiting for miracles.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 02, 2018, 08:24:22 pm
Dave's is the same hardware and firmware that is shipping with production models - so you can't call it pre-production or beta.

Why not? I bet all the non-managers at Rigol do.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 02, 2018, 08:30:37 pm
A typical A-brand has a portfolio for which they designed most of the products themselves. Having all the intimate knowledge about the product means problems can be solved quickly. Lecroy has never done that. They design mostly high-end gear with very nice features and augment their portfolio with rebadges from other brands. The result is that they can't support all of their products in a way you'd expect from an A-brand.
I also don't get why LeCroy insists on rebadging stuff, their brand is worth more than their markup on Siglent, but it is common market trend unfortunately.

Rigol has been known to write firmware for Agilent/Keysight.  :popcorn:

https://mightyohm.com/blog/2009/11/agilent-dso1000-firmware-update-confirms-rigol-connection/
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 02, 2018, 09:10:29 pm
The result is that they can't support all of their products in a way you'd expect from an A-brand.


That may be the reason why the promised Firmware update for the WS3024 still is missing (ask for it 8 months ago, answer was it comes "quick" ).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on December 02, 2018, 11:20:17 pm
I had a long chat with a LeCroy guy at Electronica, on why you would buy from them and not Siglent. His response was that Lecroy have repair facilities and spares ( board-swap) in Europe and US for quicker servicing, they are rewriting all the manuals, and there are getting some additional approvals, though he didn't know exactly what this covered.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on December 03, 2018, 01:18:39 am
A typical A-brand has a portfolio for which they designed most of the products themselves. Having all the intimate knowledge about the product means problems can be solved quickly. Lecroy has never done that. They design mostly high-end gear with very nice features and augment their portfolio with rebadges from other brands. The result is that they can't support all of their products in a way you'd expect from an A-brand.
I also don't get why LeCroy insists on rebadging stuff, their brand is worth more than their markup on Siglent, but it is common market trend unfortunately.

Rigol has been known to write firmware for Agilent/Keysight.  :popcorn:

https://mightyohm.com/blog/2009/11/agilent-dso1000-firmware-update-confirms-rigol-connection/
That was way back when Rigol used to manufacture the low end series for Agilent.  Since then, Rigol firmware just got worse.  Actually the DS1102E scope was really nice and very responsive in 2008... not anymore
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on December 03, 2018, 03:34:25 am
My point is that calling LeCroy B-brand is not right by a long shot. Actually, it might be a smart move, because they don't have to spend company resources on the low end stuff and can focus on the serious products.
Indeed. Actually, Lecroy was and still is the A-brand for DSOs. After all, Walter Lecroy invented the DSO (ignoring Nicolet did some low speed DSO first) and Teledyne Lecroy still defines the bleeding edge of high speed DSOs. Even their upper midrange stuff features 12bit and multiple GHz. So putting them in the same league as Rigol or Siglent shows either a total lack of knowledge or ill will.
And yes, the WS 3000(z) line is the entry line but obviously Lecroy learned from that Wave Ace disaster which was the result of trying to rebrand a Siglent scope without too much effort.
The way of cooperation chosen for the WS3000 is probably the best possible soluton for Lecroy to produce an entry level scope that still is a "real" Lecroy as much as possible with the given price and HW limitations.

Side note: R&S most certainly was and is an A-brand for HF/broadcasting equipment and their high end scopes wre/are most probably competitive to Lecroy in the same price range, but the entry level scopes (like RTB2000/RTM3000/RTA4000 etc.) IMHO are the result of the acquisition of Hameg. And while Hameg certainly created some proper and robust equipment over the decades, they never were considered an A-brand for scopes (or power supplies or whatever) and already reduced production costs before the acquisition by producing their stuff mainly in the Czech Republic.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on December 03, 2018, 03:48:50 am
I don't think anyone would question that the current R&S scope range is in the same league as Keysight, and certainly way above the Rigols and Siglents of this world.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 03, 2018, 03:57:07 am
Quote
And yes, the WS 3000(z) line is the entry line but obviously Lecroy learned from that Wave Ace disaster which was the result of trying to rebrand a Siglent scope without too much effort.
The way of cooperation chosen for the WS3000 is probably the best possible soluton for Lecroy to produce an entry level scope that still is a "real" Lecroy as much as possible with the given price and HW limitations.

I think the wave ace was from Uni-T.
The WS3000 series is very slow - after a few weeks ago we bought our WS3024, the new WS3000Z was launched.
With more "horsepower"...thank you LeCroy :( ( for the 3000Z series a power analyzing option is avaible, for the 3000 not)

Topic:

Playing around with my MSO5074, again.

The noisefloor is sometimes irritating - you know, you feed in an proper signal (from my siglent AWG) and it looks "thick", in normal aquisition mode.
But this is also known by other rigols I had (DS1000Z, DS2000).
PWM couldn´t be displayed "stable", like lecroy and siglent ( ha, ha..) do.
All math function can be displayed alone, without the source channel -  :-+
The mathfunction "Lowpass" irritates me...you can only set the frequency in Mhz ranges - trying to set it to e.g. 1Khz it displays "Over lower".... :-//
Must check it again at work, thought I can filter the sinewave out of the pwm.
Speed general is superb.
The fan, again, is very...very annoying loud  >:(
On my "hitlist" of noisy fans it takes the second place.
First place take the lecroy wavejet with its 40mm fan - you can her it even out of the room....

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 03, 2018, 04:30:31 am
My point is that calling LeCroy B-brand is not right by a long shot. Actually, it might be a smart move, because they don't have to spend company resources on the low end stuff and can focus on the serious products.
Indeed. Actually, Lecroy was and still is the A-brand for DSOs. After all, Walter Lecroy invented the DSO (ignoring Nicolet did some low speed DSO first) and Teledyne Lecroy still defines the bleeding edge of high speed DSOs. Even their upper midrange stuff features 12bit and multiple GHz. So putting them in the same league as Rigol or Siglent shows either a total lack of knowledge or ill will.
You seem to forget Lecroy is selling Siglent gear. So on one hand you have a company which builds really high-end oscilloscopes and on the other hand sells low end gear. It is like being served a hamburger from McDonalds in a 5 star restaurent. It just doesn't add up.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on December 03, 2018, 04:34:36 am
I think the wave ace was from Uni-T.
Nope:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/should-i-buy-a-lecroy-wave-ace/ (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/should-i-buy-a-lecroy-wave-ace/)

The WS3000 series is very slow - after a few weeks ago we bought our WS3024, the new WS3000Z was launched.
With more "horsepower"...thank you LeCroy :( ( for the 3000Z series a power analyzing option is avaible, for the 3000 not)
The WS3000 is painfully slow with large memory depth and low sampling frequency. It's OKish when you reduce sample depth or increase sample frequency.
The "z" update is also supposed to have a better (LED backlit) LCD with capacitive touch.  Actually, I could imagine the WS3000z fixes most of the issues the WS3000.

I don't think anyone would question that the current R&S scope range is in the same league as Keysight, and certainly way above the Rigols and Siglents of this world.
I certainly don't question that. Anyway, "genuine" R&S stuff like RTO2000 or RTP is certainly totally A-brand in the same league as middle/upper Lecroy scopes.
It's just that R&S acquired Hameg to get a foot in the entry level and lower midrange market but IMHO this was an ideal partnership were the current RTB/RTM line combines knowledge from Hameg and R&S to something that is better than the previous Hameg scopes and yet much cheaper than the previous R&S models.
The cooperation between Keysight and Rigol or Lecroy and Siglent was/is way more asymmetrical and still the WS3000 as a result of the Lecroy/Siglent cooperation is more of a Lecroy than a rebranded Siglent.

You seem to forget Lecroy is selling Siglent gear.
Again, this lacks any dedication to the details discussed here in the last years regarding the cooperation of Lecroy with Iwatsu and Siglent. So I guess it's pointless to repeat what was discussed a million times before.
Just believe what you want, but calling Lecroy a B-brand for DSOs is still utter nonsense.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 03, 2018, 05:57:20 am
Quote
The mathfunction "Lowpass" irritates me...you can only set the frequency in Mhz ranges - trying to set it to e.g. 1Khz it displays "Over lower"....


Test it again, the lowest avaible cutoff frequency depends on the timebase.


(https://s15.directupload.net/images/181202/temp/4ba2rohv.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5289/4ba2rohv_jpg.htm)

By 500µs/div 100Khz lowest cutoff....

For what was it good for ?
If I want to filter out a 400Hz Sinewave from a 10Khz pwm, I would choose 1Khz cutoff LP, but it would never function because in this timebase the cutoff frequency is in mhz range….what the heck ?!
Did I misunderstood the function - or is it a point to fix ?

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on December 03, 2018, 06:23:32 am
And I ask again, what qualification do you need to join the AB police?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on December 03, 2018, 06:49:40 am
And I ask again, what qualification do you need to join the AB police?
None !

Just the ability to keep up with the incidences of test equipment failures here on the leading electronics forum.
NAND corruption, PSU failures etc shouldn't happen in any equipment under 5 yrs old.

User misuse or failure to RTFM is another matter.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 03, 2018, 07:28:21 am
NAND corruption, PSU failures etc shouldn't happen in any equipment under 5 yrs old.

The real world thinks it's much better to pay half price and accept a tiny chance of failure.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on December 03, 2018, 07:50:32 am
Problem that comes with this is that a small failure rate tends to come with vocal customers. Look at all the shit Apple get.

Edit: I should say that the stuff is literally disposable pricing now. The whole scope comes in less than a decent vertical plugin for a Tek 7000 would cost today.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 03, 2018, 07:52:36 am
NAND corruption, PSU failures etc shouldn't happen in any equipment under 5 yrs old.
The real world thinks it's much better to pay half price and accept a tiny chance of failure.
Mistakes are inevitable but there is a big difference between receiving a bag with capacitors (if you are lucky) and a piece of equipment being transported and repaired for free. Also lets not forget about the difference in sales volumes. Anecdotal evidence tends to exclude that.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 03, 2018, 07:54:43 am
You seem to forget Lecroy is selling Siglent gear. So on one hand you have a company which builds really high-end oscilloscopes and on the other hand sells low end gear
Again, this lacks any dedication to the details discussed here...
Here, I fixed the selective quoting for you so now all the details are within context as it should be.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 03, 2018, 08:08:45 am
Problem that comes with this is that a small failure rate tends to come with vocal customers. Look at all the shit Apple get.

You need good customer service.

(and a way of knowing if the phone has been dropped in water then dried out before claiming "it died for no reason at all!")

Edit: I should say that the stuff is literally disposable pricing now. The whole scope comes in less than a decent vertical plugin for a Tek 7000 would cost today.

Result: A new class of customer. People who would never think of owning a Tek 7000 are buying this cheap stuff.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on December 03, 2018, 08:10:24 am
Very true on both counts.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 03, 2018, 08:16:11 am
Maybe my expetations are too high, maybe I shouldn´t compare affordable scopes automatically with the ones I work everyday with in our testfield.
But I do, perhaps in the hope that someday  a "B-Brand" scope launch into the market, which makes older good quality stuff forgettable.

My impressions by playing around with the 5074 are that this one could do it.
If rigol optimize the firmware proper, the hardware can have the capability for it - I´ll see it in the next days at work.
By the way, the 1mV/div range is bandwith limited - a "B" pops up by the choose.
At 2mV/div it disappears.




Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on December 03, 2018, 11:00:00 am
You seem to forget Lecroy is selling Siglent gear. So on one hand you have a company which builds really high-end oscilloscopes and on the other hand sells low end gear
Again, this lacks any dedication to the details discussed here...
Here, I fixed the selective quoting for you so now all the details are within context as it should be.
It's not my lack of quoting skills that was in question.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: glenenglish on December 03, 2018, 11:45:24 am
I agree that 2 GSps is an overkill for a 100 meg scope but if I like it I will upgrade it to 350M, and apples for apples, dollar for dollar, it is hard to beat.

It's not brickwall filtering of course. That's the -3dB.

My experience is that the minimum oversample rate of 4x BW gives me the pictures I want if there is a bus fight.. This is quite obvious on my 5GS tek scope's response.

it will be interesting to measure the rolloff rate of the 100meg at 2GSps. IE what Rigol do with the filtering.

beyond 350 MHz, probing accurately becomes more difficult also.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 05, 2018, 05:21:32 am
Some functions are not avaible and "greyed out", perhaps functional with an option/firmware upgrade, seems normal to me.
BUT:
"Options Install", "Online Upgrade" and "Local Upgrade" are also deactivated... :-//


Got a answer from rigol today:


The fields are self-activating.

A detection of a USB-stick with options-license file will activate the "Options Install" Button.
A detection of a USB-stick with a firmware-file will activate the "Local Upgrade" Button and if the scope is online, you got access to the online upgrade button.



Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 05, 2018, 07:39:23 am
I agree that 2 GSps is an overkill for a 100 meg scope

When you turn on all four channels it's less, proportionally.

When you unlock 350MHz it's about right.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - Unconfirmed 'Crack' of Rigol 5000
Post by: mrpackethead on December 06, 2018, 06:19:32 pm
A unconfirmed claim of of the MSO5000 has been made by a chinese student.   

Quote
"Well, I have patched the firmware, let it jump out license verify produce. But I can't make it public until next year March. Because Rigol sold out about less than 300 units now.

In fact I'm working on my friend's scope and I havent ordered yet (lack of money...Im just a ungraduated). I m wonder if I make it public prematurely, maybe they will fix it and it can't be cracked anymore.

Btw, there's no keygen for 5000 series oscilloscope because it cant be realize. The only way to crack it is to patch firmware.

The detail of crack this scope I will
publish it to my github when my scope is successfully cracked."


Sadly he does not want to provide the info, I think he is worried that Rigol will patch the issue before he has collected enough money to buy his own.      If he was able to crack it, i'm sure that others will be able to do it as well, pretty quickly.   if he wants the 'claim to fame' of being the guy who cracked it, he will need to publish it before anyone else does i guess.   though it seems he just wants the 350Mhz scope for the 70Mhz price.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on December 06, 2018, 06:28:16 pm
I agree that 2 GSps is an overkill for a 100 meg scope

When you turn on all four channels it's less, proportionally.

When you unlock 350MHz it's about right.
Just to make sure it has 8/4/2 GS/sec for  4ch and 8/2 GS/sec for 2 ch.

More than Nyquist is useful. Most scopes go way more than sticker spec. Keysight wrote WP in which they basically said that you need 5x oversampling to make it work real well with real world filtering and such. If speed and memory is there no harm done. At least some members wont complain that Rigol shows points that don't exist.  ^-^
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 07, 2018, 09:59:13 am
Quote
At least some members wont complain that Rigol shows points that don't exist.


For example ?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on December 07, 2018, 10:27:10 am
Some time ago was discussion where some members didn't believe that you can reconstruct signal if you don't have many samples per period....
I was joking about that...  Not important..
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 07, 2018, 10:41:21 am
Ah, okay...
And it makes sense.
Our older LeCroy Waverunner models ( 1999-2002)showing us everything in the right manner, although they have "only" 500Mpts/Sa by 200 Mhz BW.
A few months ago, a LeCory sales man told me the "right ratio" between samples and bandwith - unfortunenatly I can´t remember the value at the moment, but I´m sure it was less then expected.
Today I´ll take my 5074 to work, test it next week under "real conditions".
As I mentioned before, Rigol itself compares it with the 2000er models from Tek and Keysight.
The 7000s series they compare it with the 3000s series of Tek and Keysight.
Understatement or true sight...



Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on December 07, 2018, 10:49:33 am
The MSO5000 hasn't got "smart" probe interfaces -> entry level as Keysight DOSX2000, R&S RTB2000 etc.
The DS7000 has them, so it's targeted at the "one above entry level" like Keysight DSOX3000, R&S RTM3000 etc.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 07, 2018, 05:25:52 pm
Quote
At least some members wont complain that Rigol shows points that don't exist.

For example ?
AFAIK on the DS1000Z the sin x/x is implemented incorrectly which hasn't been fixed (yet).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 07, 2018, 07:59:46 pm
AFAIK on the DS1000Z the sin x/x is implemented incorrectly which hasn't been fixed (yet).

Nope. There's been entire threads discussing this but you're still spreading anti-Rigol FUD anyway.

Short version: Turning sin(x)/x "off" when you're in dots mode with more than channels turned on at full sample rate (and only in dots mode with more than two channels turn on at full sample rate) doesn't seem to disable it completely, it seems to use an alternate reconstruction filter instead. But we're not 100% sure because you have to go really close to the scope's bandwidth limit to even see it.

That's a completely different thing than "sin x/x is implemented incorrectly".
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 08, 2018, 04:09:03 am
First Time measuring at work, spi-decoding….
BIG disappointement…

(https://i.ibb.co/Wt4nbff/SPI1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Wt4nbff) (https://i.ibb.co/44R896Q/SPI2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/44R896Q)

It decodes from the screen, what you see is what you get, if not all data are displayed, then you couldn´t see all the data in the event table….. :--

Turn one channel off, all data are lost - Lecroy WS3024 and EVEN the smaller, much cheaper siglent 1104 can do it, they decode it from, the memory….and this one do it like the 1054Z  :--
Hope they correct it, so much memory inside and then decoding from the screen....
And:
The event table...You have to turn it on in the menu, good.
But:
If you press the "Back" button or if you turn on another channel, it disappears.... ::)
You have to go back in the menu and turn it on again....

Rigol, please fix it - Event table on/off only when you press the specific button.
And pretty please rigol....decode the data from the memory......PLEASE.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: dr.diesel on December 08, 2018, 04:11:59 am
And pretty please rigol....decode the data from the memory......PLEASE.

They never bothered to fix it in the 4000s.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: rsjsouza on December 08, 2018, 04:30:22 am
And pretty please rigol....decode the data from the memory......PLEASE.

They never bothered to fix it in the 4000s.
Nope. The DS4000 series decodes from the acquisition memory and not from the video buffer.
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-scopes-serial-decoding/ (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-scopes-serial-decoding/)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 08, 2018, 05:59:55 am
First Time measuring at work, spi-decoding….
BIG disappointement…

(https://i.ibb.co/Wt4nbff/SPI1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Wt4nbff) (https://i.ibb.co/44R896Q/SPI2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/44R896Q)

It decodes from the screen, what you see is what you get, if not all data are displayed, then you couldn´t see all the data in the event table….. :--
Are you friggin' kidding? How can that happen in a scope released in 2018? If you think you will ever need decoding then return it and buy it again when Rigol has implemented decoding the full memory.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on December 08, 2018, 06:12:36 am
$10 POS aliexpress logic analyser does better than that.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 08, 2018, 06:19:23 am
$10 POS aliexpress logic analyser does better than that.

My advice: Use one of those, then and leave the 4-channel, 350Mhz, 200Mpoint memory, $900 oscilloscopes for the rest of us.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on December 08, 2018, 06:20:14 am
$10 POS aliexpress logic analyser does better than that.

My advice: Use one of those, then and leave the 4-channel, 350Mhz, 200Mpoint memory, $900 oscilloscopes for the rest of us.  :popcorn:

Allegeledy, 1Ghz
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bd139 on December 08, 2018, 06:27:10 am
$10 POS aliexpress logic analyser does better than that.

My advice: Use one of those, then and leave the 4-channel, 350Mhz, 200Mpoint memory, $900 oscilloscopes for the rest of us.  :popcorn:

I do exactly that already  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 08, 2018, 06:29:05 am
$10 POS aliexpress logic analyser does better than that.

My advice: Use one of those, then and leave the 4-channel, 350Mhz, 200Mpoint memory, $900 oscilloscopes for the rest of us.  :popcorn:

Allegeledy, 1Ghz

Even if it did the whole memory they'd just complain it couldn't decode all 200Mb without any lag.

Haters gonna hate.


PS: What happens if you zoom out on a long sequence of data? The manual seems to suggest the event table should still work for all the signal on screen, ie. it's not working with just 1200 bytes of downsampled data like a DS1054Z.

Also: Does it display rubbish if you scroll the start of a byte off the screen?

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 08, 2018, 06:40:35 am
$10 POS aliexpress logic analyser does better than that.

My advice: Use one of those, then and leave the 4-channel, 350Mhz, 200Mpoint memory, $900 oscilloscopes for the rest of us.  :popcorn:

Allegeledy, 1Ghz

I forgot to mention the huge sampling rate - good for avoiding the Gibbs phenomenon.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on December 08, 2018, 06:57:13 am
I wonder if there is a misunderstanding what sampling from screen or memory means exactly.
When you use 2GSa/s and set the memory to 400kPoints or 200kPoints as shown in the screenshots, the sample memory is all that fits on the screen with 10divs and 20µs/div (400kPoints) or 10µs/div (200kPpoints). IMHO you could only complain about decoding memory vs. screen if the selected memory depth exceeds what is visible on the screen.

E.g. the Lecroy WS3K (and any other Lecroy)  can use the full memory independently of the sample rate, i.e. the memory can exceed what fits on the screen by far. However, even letting the decoding aside, sampling the whole memory lowers the update rate (and increases the dead time) of course. I.e. the time needed to sample 200MPoint at 2GSa/s is 100ms which means the update rate would be decreased to 10Hz even if the decoding and display wouldn't need any time at all. This is exactly why "fast" scopes as the Keysight DSOX only decode or measure what's on the screen and/or don't even let you select memory depth independently from sample rate.

Then again, even with HW based decoding it's somewhat inevitable that decoding 20MPoints will take longer than 100kPoints.
Anyway, I guess people who expect the whole memory to be sampled and decoded without any speed impact didn't really get the whole DSO thing.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 08, 2018, 07:17:14 am
Dave also showed quite a few problems with serial decoding in a video the other day.

I assume that's one of the things the firmware people are still working on so don't count your chickens until the fat lady sings.  :popcorn:

OTOH: The manual says the event table only shows what's in the area on screen so I'm not expecting full memory decode. I'm more interested in whether it still decodes properly when you zoom out a bit, eg. does it still decode when a byte of serial data is reduced to a couple of pixels on screen? If not, at what point does it start to fail?

(nb. I'm talking about the event table, not the bytes overlaid horizontally on the signal)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on December 08, 2018, 07:32:13 am
I have a logic16 from salae, and its just awesome, comes with heaps of decode protocols, and it does the job *really* well, and its easy to transfer data to a PC for more in depth comparison and manipulation..      Just not sure i need another instrument to do that, and one that does it poorly.     Much more interested in the other features of it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 08, 2018, 07:47:32 am
Quote
The manual says the event table only shows what's in the area on screen so I'm not expecting full memory decode

True.

Manual:
Quote
Note: When the source channel of MISO or MOSI is set to "OFF",
information of the data line is not displayed in the data table.

You can turn off both channels ( we use spi without cs) on the WS3024 or SDS1104, as long as the table is on, data will be displayed on this.

Quote
Note:
 When you adjust the horizontal time base, the waveform displayed
on the screen will also change, and the total number of lines
containing the decoding information in the event table will also be
changed.


OK, thats the result of my second photo - took a look in the manual after work at home...
I wouldn´t expect that on a scope which can display math functions without the channel on..
Monday the tests will be continued and I will also test spi again for:

Quote
I'm more interested in whether it still decodes properly when you zoom out a bit, eg. does it still decode when a byte of serial data is reduced to a couple of pixels on screen? If not, at what point does it start to fail?




Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on December 08, 2018, 08:18:42 am
It doesn't decode from screen buffer. I decodes form memory and in hardware at that.
But that statement is being confusingly used here.

Like 0xdeadbeef said, some scopes can be setup to show much less on screen but to sample to the full extent of sample memory. So your screen shows 1 ms of  data, but scope went on and actually was sampling for 100 ms. And you can decode all of it, and when stopped, you can browse data, zoom in and out and all.

Some scopes sample only interval that is is needed for one screen scan. So will be able to show you and decode only screen time worth of data. In which case, if you need more, you don't force memory to sample "after" the screen, but change time base to "see" all the data of interest. Scope will try to keep sample rate as high as possible, so it will expand how much samples it will take. If you have enough memory you can "squish" 100 packets on the screen to the point that you cannot recognize them visually. But they are there in sample memory in full detail,  it will decode them all, and you can then select zoom function and magnify portion of the capture.

To me that is more intuitive "scope like" behaviour.
On the other hand, for data analysis, you think in terms of sample rate and number of samples (which more like Lecroy philosophy, understandable considering their legacy)

I suggest that we stop using phrase "decode from screen" because it's confusing. It's either "decodes from data decimated for screen buffer"(which is bad)  or "this scope decodes only time interval shown on screen", in which case you need to set timebase to put on screen whole extent of data you are interested in.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on December 08, 2018, 08:28:08 am

I wouldn´t expect that on a scope which can display math functions without the channel on..
ON or hidden, it's a feature to be able to hide a trace when it's only needed for trigger or Math purposes.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 08, 2018, 08:41:10 am
Then again, even with HW based decoding it's somewhat inevitable that decoding 20MPoints will take longer than 100kPoints.
Anyway, I guess people who expect the whole memory to be sampled and decoded without any speed impact didn't really get the whole DSO thing.
Sorry but that is nonsense. Even the older Agilent DSO7000 series decode all what is inside the memory. The newer R&S RTM3004 can also decode over 400Mpts (divided over multiple segments) and it doesn't slow down at all while doing that. A scope should be able to decode everything which is inside the memory otherwise the event table (and browsing through it) is useless. You'll lose track of what is what as soon as you are zooming in on a signal (like Martin72 shows). If you ever tried to work with a scope which only decodes what is on screen you'll start pulling your hair quickly. It is utterly inefficient especially with protocols which typically have longer messages like SPI, I2C and CAN.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on December 08, 2018, 10:17:27 am
Sorry but that is nonsense.
We'll see about that.

Even the older Agilent DSO7000 series decode all what is inside the memory.
We have two Agilent DSO7000 (from early 200x or so) in the department and they can't even measure (things like frequency, DC) anything else than what is displayed on the screen (when zooming in after a single trigger) which makes them useless for me. So I'd be honestly surprised if they could decode anything offscreen. Then again, there are no options installed there and I wouldn't even bother as I hate these things anyway because of their crippling limitations.

The newer R&S RTM3004 can also decode over 400Mpts (divided over multiple segments) and it doesn't slow down at all while doing that. A scope should be able to decode everything which is inside the memory otherwise the event table (and browsing through it) is useless.
Again, do the math, sampling (and decoding) the full memory would slow down the refresh rate dramatically. Using segmented memory is actually reducing the sample depth per capture, so this is obviously something completely different than filling the whole memory at each trigger point. Note that most scopes behave differently for normal trigger mode, single trigger and special triggers like for segmented memory.

You'll lose track of what is what as soon as you are zooming in on a signal (like Martin72 shows). If you ever tried to work with a scope which only decodes what is on screen you'll start pulling your hair quickly. It is utterly inefficient especially with protocols which typically have longer messages like SPI, I2C and CAN.
If we're talking about zooming in after a single trigger, then we are on one page. Every proper scope should be able to do a measurement on the whole memory that was sampled (even though some Agilents can't).
However, as far as I can tell, this is not what we can see on the screenshots as the sample memory displayed exactly fits the screen in both cases.

Anyway, I'd never voluntarily decode serial protocols with a scope if I don't have to. I use the scope mainly to investigate when I get noise or bit errors and suspect it's a bus collision or whatever. So personally, I wouldn't care so much if only the onscreen message is decoded - as long as I can keep the whole area of interest on the screen.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 08, 2018, 10:36:56 am
Things are not so bad as you might think. I did some extensive testing (including decoding) on various oscilloscopes (*). The big advantage of using an oscilloscope is that it will show you whether the signals are correct in the analog domain. In many cases the cause of a problem in a serial bus has to do with the shape of the waveform. I've seen people being stuck for over 2 weeks because they didn't bother to look at the signals in the analog domain. Just using a logic analyser and lots of head scratching. After hooking up the analog channels the problem was identified in 5 minutes.

*
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/micsig-to1104-(similar-to-rigol-1104z)/msg1196293/#msg1196293 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/micsig-to1104-(similar-to-rigol-1104z)/msg1196293/#msg1196293)
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/gw-instek-gds2204e-(200mhz-4-channel-dso)-review/msg855862/#msg855862 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/gw-instek-gds2204e-(200mhz-4-channel-dso)-review/msg855862/#msg855862)
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtm3000-review/msg1604185/#msg1604185 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtm3000-review/msg1604185/#msg1604185)

edit: deep memory (lots of segments) allows to capture a lot of data and likely to capture a rare event in one measurement (collect data and then analyse). It can take a lot of extra time to do measurements over and over again to capture a rare event.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 08, 2018, 10:44:01 am
We use the spi decoding for debugging/testing, e.g. to make sure the analog environment of our circuits is correct ( supervision/regulation circuits for voltage/current).
And sure, it is for say 90% enough of how the rigol scopes handles the decoding, that´s the reason we got 4 1054Z here.
And after years of using them we find a "bug", if we want to display another signal parallel to the decoding, it sucks up with decoding.
The WS3024 don´t, the SDS1104 too.
This in mind I was curious about the new rigol 5000 - And actually a little bit disappointed in this point.
Although it seems to have a good value for money in general - But further tests are required.
"Big" Display, 500000 Waveforms/s, 8Gs/s, lots of triggerfunctions, lots of math functions..I couldn´t see this on other scopes for the price.
But it seems, it´s another "asian style thing":
We put lot of stuff in, cause we could - and nothing works really 100% fine.
R&S RTB2000 series for example got less stuff - but what they got, it works.





Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: imo on December 08, 2018, 09:18:40 pm
.."Big" Display, 500000 Waveforms/s, 8Gs/s, lots of triggerfunctions, lots of math functions..I couldn´t see this on other scopes for the price.
But it seems, it´s another "asian style thing"
A high time to start an open source o'scope project. HW platform is there. All you need is 2-3 datasheets :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 08, 2018, 11:56:42 pm
There is already a firmware update since october for the 7000 avaible, curious  as I am, I download it and read the release notes:


Quote
     - Auto supports unlocking by passwords
     - Math and Decode support displaying status and type
     - Add HELP menu item in "Utility->System"
     - Add probe ratios: 10000X,20000X,50000X
     - Fixed the problem of wave frozen
     - Fixed the exception of Fast acquisition
     - Fixed the setup saving and loading
     - Fixed the wave exporting and importing
     - Fixed the problem of Measure
     - Fixed the problem of Option uninstalling


No hires-mode, but 10000X Ratio, that´s of course much more important…. ;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: julianhigginson on December 09, 2018, 12:03:23 am
oh no!

So, is anyone with one of these able to grab a decent stream of SPI traffic, zoomed out on the screen, and still have it make real sense of the data?

That's one thing I was worried about with serial decoding functionality - that it would "work" like the 1000z's serial decode. That level of serial decode capability would be an example of a dealbreaker for the scope, in my opinion.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: julianhigginson on December 09, 2018, 12:54:01 am
I have a logic16 from salae, and its just awesome, comes with heaps of decode protocols, and it does the job *really* well, and its easy to transfer data to a PC for more in depth comparison and manipulation..      Just not sure i need another instrument to do that, and one that does it poorly.     Much more interested in the other features of it.

I tried using a logic 8 earlier this year for checking the drivers I was writing for an SPI ADC and DAC.. both of which ran sample data over the SPI port, too

the software looked slick, but I had big problems because of the fundamentally slow sample rate. Logic 8 can do just 50MS/s when you have 4 channels up! And I was running the SPI pretty fast. OK, so I think, maybe I can try to use the SPI clock to drive the acquisition, at least get a proper sample of the contents of the data channels that way? nope, saleae doesn't do that. 

Also getting it to try and frame in anything other than 8 bits seemed impossible. which made things pretty annoying when I wanted to search for specific 24 bit commands in the decode panel amongst streams of data... and I could only search for single byte values.

I ended up doing a bit of the on-wire data verification by hand, on my scope... which is why I'd like good serial decode on my next scope. :-)

Yes, logic pro 8 would have been a lot more appropriate for my application, because it can sample at 5x the speed... but still, the software seemed a bit limited for something as reliably variable as SPI.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: rsjsouza on December 09, 2018, 01:11:52 am
And that's why proper logic analyzers cost real money... Saleae has several drawbacks limited by its hardware.

To me decoding on an oscilloscope is quite convenient, but when you start asking for "infinite" buffers or advanced triggers on such platform, you really need to start considering a proper LA or a very advanced USB oscilloscope (before MrWolf comes after me :) ).

As other resident experts have said before me, debug the analog domain with analog tools and then move to the digital domain with digital tools.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 09, 2018, 03:29:45 am
Also getting it to try and frame in anything other than 8 bits seemed impossible. which made things pretty annoying when I wanted to search for specific 24 bit commands in the decode panel amongst streams of data... and I could only search for single byte values.

Do you think that seraching for "specific 24 bit commands amongst streams of data" is ever going to be easy/convenient on a device with buttons and twisty knobs?

Wouldn't a mouse/keyboard and large screen make it a lot easier?

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 09, 2018, 10:02:27 am
Thinking about a "firmware update wishlist"....


- Hi-Res mode with steps between 0.5 and 3 bits
- Free choosable cutoff frequency by the digital filters (and not depended on the timebase), otherwise they make no sense at the moment
- Decoding with the ability to hide the channels without loosing the data values in the event table
- Turn off the event table by pressing "off" ONLY
- A mode like "disable hardware accelaration mode" like on the WS3024 to display a pwm signal "stable" ( couldn´t describe it better and as I wrote times before, the SDS1104 can do it too)


And to who can I give the wishlist, except Santa.....
Make it any sense to write to rigol....

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 09, 2018, 10:41:44 am
Also getting it to try and frame in anything other than 8 bits seemed impossible. which made things pretty annoying when I wanted to search for specific 24 bit commands in the decode panel amongst streams of data... and I could only search for single byte values.
Do you think that seraching for "specific 24 bit commands amongst streams of data" is ever going to be easy/convenient on a device with buttons and twisty knobs?

Wouldn't a mouse/keyboard and large screen make it a lot easier?
Not if you want to see live data. You can always export the messages to a CSV file for off-line analysis. The other way around... not so much. Being able to do everything on one device is just easy and efficient (if it works well).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: julianhigginson on December 09, 2018, 01:08:28 pm

Do you think that seraching for "specific 24 bit commands amongst streams of data" is ever going to be easy/convenient on a device with buttons and twisty knobs?

Wouldn't a mouse/keyboard and large screen make it a lot easier?

I think with a touch screen, I should be a able to get an on screen keyboard, and use pinch/zoom actions to select data ranges very easily. :-) that's one reason why I liked the idea of this new 5k series scope.

Also, with the saleae I had a mouse and keyboard.. Didn't help much there....
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 10, 2018, 08:46:16 am
Quote
Make it any sense to write to rigol....


I wrote it to rigol.eu, perhaps I get an answer.


Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 11, 2018, 05:08:58 am
Today I did some measurements on a dc/ac Inverter 400Hz.
The FFT is quite fast and the peak search function is a nice feature.
But....
Maybe I found a bug:
I know the Signal is exactly 400Hz, the hardware counter shows 400Hz - But the peaksearch table did not:


(https://s15.directupload.net/images/181210/temp/fvl2bjgg.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5297/fvl2bjgg_png.htm)

410Hz ?
Where did it come from….


Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Qw3rtzuiop on December 11, 2018, 05:48:08 am
Your RBW is too high. Try to lower it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 11, 2018, 06:26:21 am
Ah, okay, thank You, didn´t respected this.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on December 11, 2018, 07:03:55 am
Your RBW is too high. Try to lower it.
RBW says 20Hz... is it high?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Qw3rtzuiop on December 11, 2018, 07:15:39 am
It is too high if you want to measure a peak and care about a deviation of 10 Hz. In general it depends on your requirements.

On most scopes you can increase the RBW by increasing the recorded length -> increase the time base
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on December 11, 2018, 07:24:17 am
You are right, I did not see the 10Hz deviation.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 11, 2018, 07:32:44 am
Manual "says" :

Quote
…..and resolution are displayed at the bottom of the screen, as shown in
the following figure. Of which, FFT resolution is the quotient of the sample rate
and the number of FFT points. If the number of FFT points is a fixed value
(65535 at most), then the lower the sample rate, the higher the resolution.


Damn RTFM...


I try it tomorrow.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 11, 2018, 11:17:56 pm
The serial decoding abilities of this thing still haven't been fully reviewed (AFAIK) and it looks like they need a firmware update anyway.

What would be interesting is to know is how responsive the web interface is and how fast the sample data can be downloaded over Ethernet.

If data download is fast then it should be quite easy to decode large amounts of serial data using a connected PC.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on December 12, 2018, 04:36:55 am
Looks like after paying $90 for that pink channel and hoping to enjoy some smooth action may get no satisfaction:

https://youtu.be/G9wMP02Bock?t=157

Is that slow or what for mere 500k bins (if I understand correctly whats behind that jerky action)?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 12, 2018, 05:06:54 am
So...Today I do the measure again, watching the resolution and at the timebase of 100ms you got the 1Hz:


(https://s15.directupload.net/images/181211/temp/f6ul8odd.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5298/f6ul8odd_png.htm)

So far, I like the fft function of the MSO5074.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on December 12, 2018, 05:45:52 am
So...Today I do the measure again, watching the resolution and at the timebase of 100ms you got the 1Hz:

It's hard to get anything else than 1Hz with these settings not limited by hw but math, better try ~0...32MHz with 512k bins (1Mpts) - I get about 10Hz on random scope. And at the approx settings as in video I get about 30Hz.

Edit: Found another example, for these settings it's very slow, and it's not about (nice btw) features being turned on little later. Main function is slow. Lack of math processing power?
https://youtu.be/mX2dZWcFjns?t=284
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 12, 2018, 10:04:44 am
For me it´s not slow in comparison with other scopes here.
Good, other scopes here are older Waverunner models, some Wavesurfer models.
Compare it with them the rigol is even "better".
But what means "slow" in this case…Do you really need a fast responsive FFT...
Apart from this, althoug the tests are not fully done yet, I think about buying the options bundle.
Hacking is a nice thing but ruins your warranty, ruins the reselling price.
And only buying the options bundle, the bandwith upgrades are too expensive and in my case actually unimportant.
A MSO 5074 with options bundle costs about 1800€ - I don´t know any scope which can beat the overall-performance at this price.
If rigol fixed the issues and add some nice to haves, it will be a killer.



Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on December 12, 2018, 11:23:04 am
Hacking is a nice thing but ruins your warranty, ruins the reselling price.

The hack is undetectable,  simply put it back how it was. Its just a software switch.
The resale price for any Rigol 5000 series now is less than the 5074 model.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 12, 2018, 11:55:45 am
A MSO 5074 with options bundle costs about 1800€ - I don´t know any scope which can beat the overall-performance at this price.
There are other options out there in this price bracket. Though with a smaller display and no touch screen but with good firmware out of the box.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: imo on December 12, 2018, 06:57:42 pm
@Martin72: read this how to easy unlock (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/msg2028007/#msg2028007) and you may contribute with some useful testing effort..
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 12, 2018, 07:02:26 pm
Hacking is a nice thing but ruins your warranty.

How can it ruin the warranty? You haven't opened the case or done anything outside specification.

The hack can be removed just as easily if you want to resell it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 12, 2018, 07:04:17 pm
A MSO 5074 with options bundle costs about 1800€ - I don´t know any scope which can beat the overall-performance at this price.
There are other options out there in this price bracket. Though with a smaller display and no touch screen

And no signal generator.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: imo on December 12, 2018, 07:16:57 pm
It seems Martin72 is operating company o'scope thus he is limited in his ability to test the unlocked o'scope..
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 12, 2018, 07:22:19 pm
A MSO 5074 with options bundle costs about 1800€ - I don´t know any scope which can beat the overall-performance at this price.
There are other options out there in this price bracket. Though with a smaller display and no touch screen
And no signal generator.
Well for example the GW Instek MSO-2074EA has a dual channel 25MHz waveform generator (if you insist on having a function generator in an oscilloscope). It can be uphacked to have 300MHz (on 2 channels) and spectrum analysis mode by using a key generator.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: MrW0lf on December 12, 2018, 07:42:07 pm
But what means "slow" in this case…Do you really need a fast responsive FFT...

For static signals no, if do not care for eye candy. However for dynamic ones different story. Here it depends how it actually works. If look ordinary mode it seems to be single changing line w/o DPO effect. Main ack is much faster in background. So does it take single wfms (decimates main ack) or somehow combines and takes advantage of full wfm rate. But do not see how you can combine many wfms into single line w/o some sort of averaging, which would be wrong approach. Eg will you miss non-static events. So for regular mode is seems do decimate frames? Not sure for color (dot) mode. Data density of color mode seems higher but still very low compared to time domain trace.
In short, for dynamic stuff you want fastest rate possible. Something along these lines and with waterfall view:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd9RolYCqGY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd9RolYCqGY)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 12, 2018, 07:57:21 pm
It can be uphacked to have 300MHz (on 2 channels) and spectrum analysis mode by using a key generator.

If we're allowed to hack then then Rigol only costs 900 Bucks. And it has 4 channels.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 13, 2018, 05:13:57 am
Another question (related to the remove viewing capabilities), can it work with a WiFi dongle?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 13, 2018, 05:38:09 am
I'm more interested in whether it still decodes properly when you zoom out a bit, eg. does it still decode when a byte of serial data is reduced to a couple of pixels on screen? If not, at what point does it start to fail?

(nb. I'm talking about the event table, not the bytes overlaid horizontally on the signal)


Measures of today, until 20ms the rigol decodes correct.

(https://s15.directupload.net/images/181212/temp/y9y27ft8.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5299/y9y27ft8_png.htm)

(https://s15.directupload.net/images/181212/temp/qjxgykws.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5299/qjxgykws_png.htm)

(https://s15.directupload.net/images/181212/temp/7gk9ar3l.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5299/7gk9ar3l_png.htm)

I found another issue using the event table ( after it´s vanishing when you press "back" or want to turn on another channel, etc):
You can´t proper scrolling the lines, neither with the knob nor with the touchfunction - it´s jumps back and forth between 2,3 lines, you can´t scroll completely down.


Quote
thus he is limited in his ability to test the unlocked o'scope..

Yes, that´s correct, I don´t have all possibilities at work/home to test this scope 100%.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 13, 2018, 06:12:29 am
I'm more interested in whether it still decodes properly when you zoom out a bit, eg. does it still decode when a byte of serial data is reduced to a couple of pixels on screen? If not, at what point does it start to fail?
Measures of today, until 20ms the rigol decodes correct.

That's really good news! About a thousand SPI clock pulses per screen pixel and it's still decoding.

Definitely not just using the "on screen" data like a DS1054Z does, you should easily be able to frame a decent sized packet of data on screen and see a complete decode in the event table.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: johnmx on December 13, 2018, 06:38:29 am
If the decode is from the internal memory, it should decode successfully at 50MSa/s. The sampling rate is ~25 times higher than the SPI clock period. But that's not the case...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 13, 2018, 06:43:07 am
Quote
you should easily be able to frame a decent sized packet of data on screen and see a complete decode in the event table.

Yes, I did - Respectively I wanted to scroll further than the first 10 lines in the table, but it didn´t work proper, see my post before.
But what I saw in the monents of "Jumping", it were the expected values.

Quote
Definitely not just using the "on screen" data


So it shouldn´t be a big deal for a Firmware update to let the channels hide away from the screen, displaying the Event table only - Although it´s not the most important thing, for sure.

Quote
@Martin72: read this how to easy unlock

Hmmm….makes me curious...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: imo on December 13, 2018, 07:04:57 am
Quote
@Martin72: read this how to easy unlock
Hmmm….makes me curious...
User: root
password: root
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 13, 2018, 07:25:19 am
Quote
you should easily be able to frame a decent sized packet of data on screen and see a complete decode in the event table.

Yes, I did - Respectively I wanted to scroll further than the first 10 lines in the table, but it didn´t work proper, see my post before.
But what I saw in the monents of "Jumping", it were the expected values.

Probably just a firmware thing. The main thing is that it can decode a decent chunk of data.

Let's hope they're working hard on the first update. :popcorn:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 14, 2018, 05:29:02 am
Today, with DS1054Z:

(https://s15.directupload.net/images/181213/temp/vqsctiu7.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5300/vqsctiu7_png.htm)

From 50µs on it couldn´t decode proper anymore:

(https://s15.directupload.net/images/181213/temp/qtjojb8o.png) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5300/qtjojb8o_png.htm)

Size matters :

(https://s15.directupload.net/images/181213/temp/n4oiadjk.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5300/n4oiadjk_jpg.htm)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: julianhigginson on December 14, 2018, 07:20:33 pm
Excellent! so glad to see the basic serial decode working properly.
I'm on track to buy a 4 channel @200MHz  with the bundle sometime in the next year, if their bugfix performance looks good.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 16, 2018, 08:46:50 am
Excellent! so glad to see the basic serial decode working properly.
I'm on track to buy a 4 channel @200MHz  with the bundle sometime in the next year, if their bugfix performance looks good.

As noted in the other thread, their new flagship 7000 scopes run basically the same firmware so I expect they're working flat out on this. They need to get it working ASAP.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 16, 2018, 09:07:54 am
Yesterday our WS3024 returned after external calibration so I had an direct visual comparison.
Yeah...quite more "look and feel" professional building quality, bigger and brighter screen, better structered menus...in this points the rigol lost against the "little" Lecroy.
But we´re talking about a prize of appx 3 times more than a 5074 and in some cases the WS3024 appears slower and haven´t all the features the rigol got.
Nevertheless it couldn´t be magic to create a design nearly to scopes like the Lecroy WS3024 what the frontpanel design and the menu structure concerns.
As I said before, I don´t mind about the "Mickey Mouse" design in general.
But in direct comparison vis a vis, the rigol looks like a toy for children... ;)
Although it isn´t of course in technical way but I can understand Dave´s comments in the vids where he´s presenting the 5000 and 7000s rigol(no fully reviews..come on Dave).
We´re talking about scopes fully armed (in "legal" way) between 5000...12000€.
The technical abillities in general might be justifying the prices if rigol fixed some issues.
But the design.....


Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 16, 2018, 10:03:36 am
Who cares about the design. You don't have to take the oscilloscope to dinner. However the design of the MSO5000 could have been less cluttered. Rigol should'nt have put the buttons on the side of the screen. A touch screen makes them redundant.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Hydrawerk on December 16, 2018, 10:15:25 am
Could someone measure the waveform update rate of MSO5000 under various conditions (e. g. all channels on, serial decoding on)?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 16, 2018, 10:20:37 am
@nctnico
I don´t get the advantages of a touch screen in case of a measurement tool like an oscilloscope….

Quote
Could someone measure the waveform update rate of MSO5000?

Next week
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 16, 2018, 10:34:57 am
@nctnico
I don´t get the advantages of a touch screen in case of a measurement tool like an oscilloscope….
I have an R&S RTM3004 and a MicSig TO1104 (both with touch screen) and I'm finding the touch screen a big improvement for making settings beyond the horizontal and vertical controls (*). BUT the interface on these oscilloscopes has been designed for touch from the ground up. Last year I've also played shortly with a Keysight S series (IIRC) which has a touch screen as well . However in that oscilloscope the UI hasn't really been designed for touch. Many of the menus and screen elements are too small to touch so operating the scope gets tedious. I don't know how well Rigol has designed to UI to work with a touch screen.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 16, 2018, 10:37:50 am
Oh, a Micsig...It´s Offtopic but what are your thoughts on this, we´re  searching for a mobile scope for services
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 16, 2018, 10:43:24 am
Oh, a Micsig...It´s Offtopic but what are your thoughts on this, we´re  searching for a mobile scope for services
Offtopic it goes then: IMHO unlike other handheld scopes the Micsig TO1000 is also useful as a bench scope. I'd say it is a bench scope without buttons but with a battery. If you are looking for a portable scope I'd certainly give it a try. What is special about the TO1000 is that it can record to video so you can save a life signal as a video.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Synthtech on December 16, 2018, 05:43:38 pm
Another vote for the Micsig, it’s fantastic to drop anywhere and start probing.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: supercilious on December 17, 2018, 06:39:36 am
Next week

Could I also request that you measure the data transfer rate? How long does it take to transfer 100M samples using SCPI to a PC via USB and/or ethernet? This was always an Achilles heel for Rigol scopes and made them much less useful than they would otherwise be with their large sample memory compared to the competition.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 17, 2018, 07:17:47 am
Hi,

This could I do at home later. ( I´ll take the scope back to home on forthcoming friday).

The update rates measures will be done tomorrow.


Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 17, 2018, 07:58:07 am
Could I also request that you measure the data transfer rate?

And the screen refresh rate when using remote access?  :popcorn:

(plz)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 17, 2018, 08:37:45 am
I must confess, I´d never used scopes with a connection via pc so far…..no, stop...we use "scope explorer" by our older lecroys to transfer screenshots ( cause they didn´t have usb ), it´s awesome slow..

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 18, 2018, 05:09:17 am
Hi,

Feeding in a 25Mhz Sine into the rigol, zoom to one period (5ns/div.), also using the full vertical grid.

(https://s15.directupload.net/images/181217/temp/rdizjnmz.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5304/rdizjnmz_jpg.htm)

(https://s15.directupload.net/images/181217/temp/un5eltpf.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5304/un5eltpf_jpg.htm)

Memory Depth:             Wfs/s:
1K                                530000
10K                              94000
100K                            61000
1M                                 7842
10M                                 798
25M                                 320
50M                                 160
100M                                 80

If I did it right, these are the results.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Hydrawerk on December 18, 2018, 05:20:22 am
Thank you.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 18, 2018, 05:29:43 am
Wednesday I test it with all channels on.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Swap_File on December 18, 2018, 05:46:25 am
Anyone have a chance to break open the PLA2216 logic probes and see what's inside?  I'm considering building my own since I doubt they use $400 worth of parts.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 19, 2018, 09:47:38 am
Quote
I doubt they use $400 worth of parts.


Sure they don´t.

None make an offer worth the prices of the parts.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 21, 2018, 08:47:29 am
Today, I did some measurements on a signalboard which delivers among others a three-phase pwm signal.
And I was a little bit dissapointed.
As known from all the different lecroy models on the work, as known from the SDS1104X-E, the MSO 5074 couldn´t display a "stable" pwm-signal.
I couldn´t describe it better, but the signal "jitters" on the screen, as if you don´t have the trigger proper set.
On the lecroys/siglent, the signal is "stable" displaying.
Sure, with single-shot pressing one after another you can see the signal width going from small to wide and back - But it´s annoying and it would be much more comfortable and less irritating when the rigol does it like lecroy/siglent.
And I try to use the "lowpass" math function to seperate the sinewave out from the pwm.
To set the cutoff frequency of say 1000hz, you must set the timebase of several hundreds of milli-seconds.
It works, but you can´t see much from the sinewave which period is way shorter than the actual timebase set.
Therefore a free selectable cutoff frequency independent from the timebase would be necessary, otherwise the filter functions makes no sense at all.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 22, 2018, 03:40:40 am
Today I did the last measurements before Christmas Holidays.
Specially the waveform update rate with more than one channel, the update rate by spi decoding.

First of all, the behaviour of the rigol in case of wfs/s is exactly the same as here:

 EEVblog 617-Tektronix Anomalie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE0_gcOBHA8)

Nothing bad, but remarkable.

Wavefrom updates during decoding spi : appx. 90wfs/s
Waveform updates decreasing while using math, in my case displaying FFT : No.


Waveform updates one channel as expected over 500000:

(https://s15.directupload.net/images/181221/temp/qwb9lrtz.jpg) (https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5308/qwb9lrtz_jpg.htm)

With more channels on between 70000.....90000, still an excellent result.
And : It decreases one time when more than one channel is active, it don´t decrease further.

Interesting:
The measurements were taken with a 25Mhz Sine at 5ns/div.
But if you zoom out to 20ns/div AND with all channels on, the waveform rate increases to appx 200000...hm.

Martin



Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: orion242 on December 26, 2018, 11:49:03 am
Just ordered the 5074 from RigolNA tonight.   Estimated ship date ">8 weeks".

Must have sold a few.

Had the 1052, upgraded to the 1054z shortly after that came out.  The HDMI output and bigger screen for the price sold me on the 5074 alone.  The 1052 would still serve my needs, but for the price and features of the new devices seems silly not to upgrade if you have the cash.  Beats the living snot out of the old crow I had before I met Rigol.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 26, 2018, 10:41:21 pm
In comparison with the 1054z, it´s really an upgrade buying the 5074.
FFT and other math functions are faster and can be displayed alone, the bigger screen....
At this Points I´m confident with the 5074.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on December 27, 2018, 02:48:32 am
Just ordered the 5074 from RigolNA tonight.   Estimated ship date ">8 weeks".

Must have sold a few.

Had the 1052, upgraded to the 1054z shortly after that came out.  The HDMI output and bigger screen for the price sold me on the 5074 alone.  The 1052 would still serve my needs, but for the price and features of the new devices seems silly not to upgrade if you have the cash.  Beats the living snot out of the old crow I had before I met Rigol.

It will be interesting to see if Rigol makes any attempts to 'update' any new firmware versions to make them somewhat more secure.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 27, 2018, 03:13:15 am
It will be interesting to see if Rigol makes any attempts to 'update' any new firmware versions to make them somewhat more secure.

...because I'm sure they want to sell less.  :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on December 27, 2018, 03:19:46 am
...because I'm sure they want to sell less.  :palm:

We will see. There is certainly plenty they could do to make it much tougher to hack.    I would be confident that Rigol certainly knows of this thread, and similar threads ( such as hackaday ). The thread has certainly been read by some of the Rigol resellers, who likely would have discussed it upwards.   My gut feeling ( no proof ) is that Rigol seeded that hacking thread as well.   ( the serial number 001 was the big giveaway ).

But the ball is in their court.  The first ones are out there, but will subsquent ones be the same.  Only time will tell, but either way we will know waht Rigols intention is.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 27, 2018, 05:00:26 am
I don´t think they´ll prevent the models from hacking - The entry models (5074/5104) will be bought and hacked by hobbyists, greater models and/or the options will be bought from companies.
So they won´t worry about that, I guess.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 27, 2018, 05:15:42 am
I don´t think they´ll prevent the models from hacking - The entry models (5074/5104) will be bought and hacked by hobbyists, greater models and/or the options will be bought from companies.
So they won´t worry about that, I guess.

We had the exact same arguments over the previous two generations of Rigol.  :popcorn:

Do you really think the bosses at Rigol would allow such a simple hack to 'escape' if hacking didn't work as a sales strategy?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 27, 2018, 05:26:42 am
Exactly.
None have to worry with the next or a future firmware the abilities of hacking won´t be possible any more.
Do anyone hear/know about hacks for R&S RTB/RTM scopes, or lecroy, or greater keysight models…
At this range of prices, you don´t care about the money for buying additional options.


Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on December 27, 2018, 05:57:51 am
Tektronix, Lecroy and Keysight scopes are being hacked on a large scale as well. It just stays more under the radar. There is also some hacking of R&S equipment and I have no doubt the scopes from R&S can be hacked as well if someone puts some effort into it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: orion242 on December 27, 2018, 09:01:31 am
Just ordered the 5074 from RigolNA tonight.   Estimated ship date ">8 weeks".

Got a call from them today and they said the initial ship date on their site was wrong, should ship 3rd week of Jan. Woot.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 27, 2018, 09:10:56 am
Quote
if someone puts some effort into it

But it didn´t happened.
The reason would be if I can buy a scope like the R&S, then I can buy also the options and don´t care about of getting them for free due to a hack.
Honestly I think rigol counts on the hacker-scene for selling their low-cost models.
The MSO 5074 is affordable, got tons of features like many math functions even mid-price scopes don´t have, power analyzing, decoding, 2-ch arb generator...for (here) 1070€.
If you get the options in which way ever for free.
This is a killer and I´m sure they know it and let the hackers doing it like they´ve done it before.
If I had 1000....2000 bucks for a scope to buy, I would go for the rigol(like I´ve done).
If I have more to spend, I won´t, even not for a 7000 rigol.


Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: photon on December 27, 2018, 09:30:51 am
I don´t think they´ll prevent the models from hacking - The entry models (5074/5104) will be bought and hacked by hobbyists, greater models and/or the options will be bought from companies.
So they won´t worry about that, I guess.

We had the exact same arguments over the previous two generations of Rigol.  :popcorn:

Do you really think the bosses at Rigol would allow such a simple hack to 'escape' if hacking didn't work as a sales strategy?
The Strategy used here by Rigol is brilliant and no cost to them, other than what they pay Dave and the engineers on their payroll who "help" EEVblog members to reverse engineer and promote their scope. Nothing is free.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on December 27, 2018, 09:38:51 am
The MSO 5074 is affordable, got tons of features like many math functions even mid-price scopes don´t have, power analyzing, decoding, 2-ch arb generator...for (here) 1070€.

Don't forget bandwidth north of 350MHz (pending real measurements), 8 gigasamples/sec rate, 400Mb memory, etc.

Nobody else is going to give you anything close to that for that much money.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on December 27, 2018, 09:51:55 am
Yes,
The hardware is ready for anything  - when they spend time for optimizing the firmware...Boy, another DS1054Z would be on the scene, but 2 class or more higher.
Got a DS2000 too, even yet it´s no real challenge against the MSO5074.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on January 01, 2019, 11:25:18 am
Happy New Year @all....

Wednesday I´ll "met" my 5074 again, waiting at work.
I think I´ll upgrade it with the "new" FW:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/msg2076715/#msg2076715 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/msg2076715/#msg2076715)
And check out the differences before/after.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on January 07, 2019, 10:04:47 am
I was a little bit scared about it, will wait for an "official" FW-update.
When was the scope released, october or november...…
It seems, rigol is still collecting the issues customers reports.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: FriedMule on January 07, 2019, 12:56:34 pm
Sorry for my question, but should I buy the Rigol MSO5072 or the Rigol MSO5074?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on January 07, 2019, 01:09:35 pm
Sorry for my question, but should I buy the Rigol MSO5072 or the Rigol MSO5074?
MSO5074.  The price of 2 additional probes is about $90 (the difference from MSO5072 to MSO5074) and you will have the warranty for all 4 channels
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: FriedMule on January 07, 2019, 01:20:15 pm
Great thanks:-)

Do you know where to get et to the lowest price (220-240VAC)?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: gedong on January 07, 2019, 04:52:18 pm
can anyone confirm if this mso5000 have bodeplot function  ?
i can't find any info on the datasheet though..
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: gedong on January 07, 2019, 04:58:42 pm
Sorry for my question, but should I buy the Rigol MSO5072 or the Rigol MSO5074?
MSO5074.  The price of 2 additional probes is about $90 (the difference from MSO5072 to MSO5074) and you will have the warranty for all 4 channels

could you tell me the stock probe is it PV2150 or PV2350 ?
planned to buy 5072 next month after CNY. price different is about $120 more for 5074
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Noy on January 07, 2019, 06:52:46 pm
Ordered a MSO5074 yesterday from Batronix (Europe). Will be shipped end of january / begin of february.
If you ask for the "show discount" because of the Embedded World next month you will get 6% off. Normaly only while the show is running but they are kind and it wasn't my first scope order from them.
So i paid nearly 1k€.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: oliv3r on January 08, 2019, 08:23:06 am
Ordered a MSO5074 yesterday from Batronix (Europe). Will be shipped end of january / begin of february.
If you ask for the "show discount" because of the Embedded World next month you will get 6% off. Normaly only while the show is running but they are kind and it wasn't my first scope order from them.
So i paid nearly 1k€.
That sounds like an excellent deal!
How did you go on about it? Request a quote with a note? Or placed the order online with a comment?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on January 08, 2019, 09:51:19 am
Hmpf,

I´ve spend 1069 for it...by Batronix in the end of november.
Although for this price it´s a burner, no doubt.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TopLoser on January 08, 2019, 10:02:02 am
Batterfly gave me 10% off my MSO5074 in December, free shipping as well.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on January 08, 2019, 11:04:36 am
lalalala, I don´t hear that, lalalala….. ;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: bitseeker on January 08, 2019, 11:12:08 am
Well, TopLoser gives lots of good deals. So, it's karma repaying him.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: oliv3r on January 08, 2019, 05:56:46 pm
Batterfly gave me 10% off my MSO5074 in December, free shipping as well.
Now he says, So I guess I'll have to poke simon then via the forum to see if that option is still available? :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: jgmrequel on January 10, 2019, 03:02:15 am
I tried searching for the answer but my Google-fu was weak this morning; What is the USB to Serial board that Dave uses in this video?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on January 10, 2019, 04:39:02 am
I tried searching for the answer but my Google-fu was weak this morning; What is the USB to Serial board that Dave uses in this video?

I dunno, but there's millions of them in the Arduino world.

eg.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=usb+to+serial+arduino (https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=usb+to+serial+arduino)

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=ftdi+basic (https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=ftdi+basic)

Or just use an Arduino....
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Noy on January 10, 2019, 07:03:19 am
I ordered it and then i started an online ticket to their sales.
But i think it is easier to ask for a quote. Then you will know before you pay what you need to pay. I did it after because even for 1069€ i would have bought it.
Sold my HM205 and DS1054z a few days before.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on January 10, 2019, 08:45:24 am
By the way, the rating for the MSO5000 on batronix was written by me...
Did I see it right, the upgrade from 2ch to 4ch cost about 400€ ?!
Hmmmm….the difference between the 5072 and 5074 cost 100 bucks, I´ll buy the 5072 and upgrade it later for fourtimes the price difference...sure, sure...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Noy on January 10, 2019, 09:05:43 am
Same price difference with bandwith Updates...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Electro Fan on January 11, 2019, 06:31:00 pm
Slightly off topic but can anyone with a Siglent 1104X-E confirm that they can decode data that isn't visible on the screen? With the 1104X-E can you scroll back and forth between data on the screen and data off the screen and get accurately decoded data and hold the timing relationships?  Or better yet, can you search and navigate decoded waveforms without just scrolling side to side?   In other words, do the X-E scopes perform better than the Rigol scopes in these respects?

First Time measuring at work, spi-decoding….
BIG disappointement…

(https://i.ibb.co/Wt4nbff/SPI1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Wt4nbff) (https://i.ibb.co/44R896Q/SPI2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/44R896Q)

It decodes from the screen, what you see is what you get, if not all data are displayed, then you couldn´t see all the data in the event table….. :--

Turn one channel off, all data are lost - Lecroy WS3024 and EVEN the smaller, much cheaper siglent 1104 can do it, they decode it from, the memory….and this one do it like the 1054Z  :--
Hope they correct it, so much memory inside and then decoding from the screen....
And:
The event table...You have to turn it on in the menu, good.
But:
If you press the "Back" button or if you turn on another channel, it disappears.... ::)
You have to go back in the menu and turn it on again....

Rigol, please fix it - Event table on/off only when you press the specific button.
And pretty please rigol....decode the data from the memory......PLEASE.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on January 11, 2019, 07:45:24 pm
Slightly off topic but can anyone with a Siglent 1104X-E confirm that they can decode data that isn't visible on the screen? With the 1104X-E can you scroll back and forth between data on the screen and data off the screen and get accurately decoded data and hold the timing relationships?  Or better yet, can you search and navigate decoded waveforms without just scrolling side to side?   In other words, do the X-E scopes perform better than the Rigol scopes in these respects?
Is 1000 screen worths enough ?
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg2096347/#msg2096347 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg2096347/#msg2096347)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on January 11, 2019, 11:20:04 pm
Slightly off topic but can anyone with a Siglent 1104X-E confirm that they can decode data that isn't visible on the screen? With the 1104X-E can you scroll back and forth between data on the screen and data off the screen and get accurately decoded data and hold the timing relationships?  Or better yet, can you search and navigate decoded waveforms without just scrolling side to side?   In other words, do the X-E scopes perform better than the Rigol scopes in these respects?

The Rigol only decodes what's on screen but you can zoom out a long way and it still decodes correctly in the event table (ie. you don't have to be able to see the individual pulses on screen like on a DS1054Z).

Is using the 'scopes zoom functions to frame the interesting data better than simply decoding the whole of memory then navigating by scrolling up/down a huge event table? Some might think so, especially with 400Mb memory.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on January 12, 2019, 12:26:00 am
In my opinion serial decoding on oscilloscopes is good for quick verification that the signals are correct by seeing some meaningful serial protocol information, but if you need serious protocol decoding, then you switch to a logic analyzer.  Even a cheap $10 saleae clone can do better protocol decoding than the most expensive oscilloscopes with serial decoding function.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on January 12, 2019, 02:06:31 am
In my opinion serial decoding on oscilloscopes is good for quick verification that the signals are correct by seeing some meaningful serial protocol information, but if you need serious protocol decoding, then you switch to a logic analyzer.  Even a cheap $10 saleae clone can do better protocol decoding than the most expensive oscilloscopes with serial decoding function.

yes, i agree, until I want to use an analog source to trigger the start of a decode.  That is sometimes useful. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on January 12, 2019, 02:10:01 am
In my opinion serial decoding on oscilloscopes is good for quick verification that the signals are correct by seeing some meaningful serial protocol information, but if you need serious protocol decoding, then you switch to a logic analyzer.  Even a cheap $10 saleae clone can do better protocol decoding than the most expensive oscilloscopes with serial decoding function.

yes, i agree, until I want to use an analog source to trigger the start of a decode.  That is sometimes useful.
Then you can get a more expensive logic analyzer for around $150 like the Zeroplus LAP-C 16032 that can be triggered by an external signal.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on January 12, 2019, 02:42:59 am
In my opinion serial decoding on oscilloscopes is good for quick verification that the signals are correct by seeing some meaningful serial protocol information, but if you need serious protocol decoding, then you switch to a logic analyzer.  Even a cheap $10 saleae clone can do better protocol decoding than the most expensive oscilloscopes with serial decoding function.

yes, i agree, until I want to use an analog source to trigger the start of a decode.  That is sometimes useful.
Then you can get a more expensive logic analyzer for around $150 like the Zeroplus LAP-C 16032 that can be triggered by an external signal.

Not the same thing. It is called MIXED signal scope for a reason. If you want to follow many thing simultaneously, and want to hop from analog to digital domain at will you need mixed signal scope for that.
Most of the time worst part is connecting DUT to instruments...
Many time, name of the game is not decoding 1000 I2C packets across 100 msec, it is 10 packets in 10 seconds interspersed with analog input/outputs...
During one session, I will go back and forth, triggering from serial protocol (start of packet, address, error) or analog trigger from other channel.

Also, it is point of view. From point of view when you are designing something from the scratch, you can test this and that, design special test firmware to test step by step..
You can then simply design test to use what you have, in which case you try to pay less, not more.. Smart.

If you have a system that you have to redesign/analyze/reverse engineer you need as many inputs at the same time, and have that time correlated. Enters mixed signal scope with decodes..
Tool for the job.

If you have something that is pretty much designed and works well from hardware standpoint, and you are now debugging software sending this and that message, you switch to logic/protocol analyzer.
It's a much better tool for that...Like you said.  I love my LAP-C 16128 for that.
And for simple serial protocols ScanaQuad 100. You drop it into laptop case and carry it all time.
If I need long time, I use Picoscope. It has huuuge memory and segments. For long sessions..

Regards,
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on January 12, 2019, 03:05:47 am
Slightly off topic but can anyone with a Siglent 1104X-E confirm that they can decode data that isn't visible on the screen? With the 1104X-E can you scroll back and forth between data on the screen and data off the screen and get accurately decoded data and hold the timing relationships?  Or better yet, can you search and navigate decoded waveforms without just scrolling side to side?   In other words, do the X-E scopes perform better than the Rigol scopes in these respects?
Is 1000 screen worths enough ?
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg2096347/#msg2096347 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg2096347/#msg2096347)

Respectfully in that post it shows that Siglent is also decoding only what is on the screen.
Explanation: Siglent captured 1000 segments, but on how it is shown on those RF's pics, it is decoding every segment separately. It is not one big table with 2000 packets. It is 1000 segments with 2 packets each, and you have to go from segment to segment to decode that one.
Both Keysight 3000T and Picoscope can show all packets from all segments as one big capture. I don't know if MSO5000 or Siglent have that. Would like to know.

Later he shows long snapshot with zoom technique that shows all the packets the same time (in table) and visual decode in zoom window. This is same as Rigol.

This nonsense with phrase "decode from screen" is annoying. Only DS1000Z does that.
All other Rigols decode full buffer.

Difference is that Rigol's "full buffer size" captures only specified memory depth and no more. That is very logical to me.
Some other scopes capture memory "before and after" the screen. And they can use it. It can be useful. But not necessary. I just deliberately capture wider time segment and then move around with zoom and search.

Sad part is that Siglent 1000X-E has always running "history buffers" that are VERY useful and very understated function. It is basically always on segmented memory. That is not mentioned enough.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Electro Fan on January 12, 2019, 10:22:54 am
2N3055, Thanks for your posts.  I think they are insightful and helpful.  :-+

Can you please elaborate on / distinguish between these two comments? Thx

"Respectfully in that post it shows that Siglent is also decoding only what is on the screen.
Explanation: Siglent captured 1000 segments, but on how it is shown on those RF's pics, it is decoding every segment separately. It is not one big table with 2000 packets. It is 1000 segments with 2 packets each, and you have to go from segment to segment to decode that one."

"Sad part is that Siglent 1000X-E has always running "history buffers" that are VERY useful and very understated function. It is basically always on segmented memory. That is not mentioned enough."

----

- This next part is not directed to 2N3055 but to the forum members overall.

FWIW, There appears to be a lack of consensus among the user community and the scope manufacturers regarding how decoding should work in a mixed-use use case.  This might be because there are multiple use cases.  It also might be because until recently the price of a useful MSO has been beyond the price range of many users, and sometimes users don't fully understand the architecture of the various entry level and intermediate level scopes we discuss around here.

As a result there is some ambiguity in the terminology we use to describe the technology and operations of MSOs, again, partly because of technology understanding or terminology and partly because different users have different needs and expectations for their various use cases.

I'll go first at making a strawman (and get riddled with criticisms, no doubt).  I think there is the capture process (how much of what type of data/protocol needs to be captured), there is the review and navigation process (how is the captured information examined - as waveforms with decodes and errors and timings, or as data in tables with decodes and timings and other annotations), and there is the search process (how do you find specific items of interest - by data strings, wildcards, etc. and/or by waveform triggers).  Admittedly there are different philosophies on all this including those who say I just want a scope to tell me about analog waveform integrity and maybe some high level digital data decode integrity and then I'll use a Logic Analyzer, and there are those who say I want to use the scope largely in place of the LA - in part because I place a value on seeing the timing relationships between analog and digital information.  For those who prefer the use of a LA, that's cool.  But what I think what would be helpful to give feedback to potential new users/buyers (and perhaps to manufacturers too) would be to improve our ability to understand and communicate what is the preferred use case or preferred most common use cases among those who want to use a scope primarily (if not entirely) rather than a LA for mixed-use work.  Personally, I'd like a MSO that would let you capture, review and navigate, and search while retaining the fidelity of the analog and digital information including timing relationships, in a reasonably user friendly manner, subject to the amount of memory available.  Just some thoughts.

And now, back to Rigol vs. Siglent, et al.....

Personally, I'd like to understand this a little better:

"This nonsense with phrase "decode from screen" is annoying. Only DS1000Z does that.
All other Rigols decode full buffer."


Does this imply that the DS1000Z decodes different than say, a Rigol MSO2072A?  If so, in what respect?  (I haven't seen any, or at least any that matters.  On the MSO2072A you can decode what is off the screen, but only to the extent you can adjust it back onto the screen with the time base.  Unless I'm mistaken about this, after that you are out of luck.) 

Net, net regarding Rigol vs Siglent X-E models:  how, in detail, do either the DS1000Z or the MSO2072A decode differently or similarly vs. the Siglent 1104X-E?  (I think this is a question that is on the table for some new buyers trying to decide between the Rigol 1054Z and the new Siglent X-E scopes.)
 


Slightly off topic but can anyone with a Siglent 1104X-E confirm that they can decode data that isn't visible on the screen? With the 1104X-E can you scroll back and forth between data on the screen and data off the screen and get accurately decoded data and hold the timing relationships?  Or better yet, can you search and navigate decoded waveforms without just scrolling side to side?   In other words, do the X-E scopes perform better than the Rigol scopes in these respects?
Is 1000 screen worths enough ?
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg2096347/#msg2096347 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg2096347/#msg2096347)

Respectfully in that post it shows that Siglent is also decoding only what is on the screen.
Explanation: Siglent captured 1000 segments, but on how it is shown on those RF's pics, it is decoding every segment separately. It is not one big table with 2000 packets. It is 1000 segments with 2 packets each, and you have to go from segment to segment to decode that one.
Both Keysight 3000T and Picoscope can show all packets from all segments as one big capture. I don't know if MSO5000 or Siglent have that. Would like to know.

Later he shows long snapshot with zoom technique that shows all the packets the same time (in table) and visual decode in zoom window. This is same as Rigol.

This nonsense with phrase "decode from screen" is annoying. Only DS1000Z does that.
All other Rigols decode full buffer.

Difference is that Rigol's "full buffer size" captures only specified memory depth and no more. That is very logical to me.
Some other scopes capture memory "before and after" the screen. And they can use it. It can be useful. But not necessary. I just deliberately capture wider time segment and then move around with zoom and search.

Sad part is that Siglent 1000X-E has always running "history buffers" that are VERY useful and very understated function. It is basically always on segmented memory. That is not mentioned enough.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on January 12, 2019, 11:16:12 am
Explanation: Siglent captured 1000 segments, but on how it is shown on those RF's pics, it is decoding every segment separately. It is not one big table with 2000 packets. It is 1000 segments with 2 packets each, and you have to go from segment to segment to decode that one.
Both Keysight 3000T and Picoscope can show all packets from all segments as one big capture. I don't know if MSO5000 or Siglent have that. Would like to know.
AFAIK Besides Keysight and (according to you Picoscope) I don't know any oscilloscope manufacturer which shows the decoded data from all segments in one bus table. To me this is an obvious thing to do but the only oscilloscope I had in my hands which did that was an (older) Agilent DSO7104A. OTOH the Keysight units don't have much memory compared to the competition so you are much more likely to use segments on a Keysight scope where you might be able to get away with a single acquisition on a scope with more memory.

BTW there are quite a few scopes which only do 'on screen decoding'. AFAIK most (if not all) Siglent scopes and some tests Martin72 did with his Rigol MSO5000 seem to indicate that the MSO5000 also decodes only what is on screen. One of the 'problems' associated with decoding is that it needs a parallel process and memory which runs in parallel with acquisition OR it is a post processing operation. The first needs extra hardware, the latter needs a lot of processing power especially when the oscilloscope has a lot of memory (like the MSO5000). Given the high samplerate of the MSO5000 it may not even be able to do decoding in the hardware and thus making decoding only possible as a post-processing step. If the latter is true then Rigol made a serious mistake in the hardware design.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on January 12, 2019, 11:33:02 am
Gladly. let's go one by one.
2N3055, Thanks for your posts.  I think they are insightful and helpful.  :-+

Can you please elaborate on / distinguish between these two comments? Thx

"Respectfully in that post it shows that Siglent is also decoding only what is on the screen.
Explanation: Siglent captured 1000 segments, but on how it is shown on those RF's pics, it is decoding every segment separately. It is not one big table with 2000 packets. It is 1000 segments with 2 packets each, and you have to go from segment to segment to decode that one."


Older Rigols (2000, 4000 series) will not decode from screen pixels. 1000Z  does that, it sucks. If you have on screen 10M points, they will decode from 10 Mpoints with full resolution. To the point that you can have packets that are visually on screen all smeared together in one big block, but in a decode table you will see them all nicely decoded.
Hence usual advice to capture big block of data and then zoom in.

Both 1000E-X  and older Rigols (2000, 4000 series) can also capture in segments. You capture 1000 separate shorter buffers, and when you go through them it will decode them.
If somebody can check do the new ones (5000 and 7000) also can decode from segments. It is called recording in Rigol parlance.

But both Rigol and Siglent will decode and show only current segment buffer (basically what's on screen, in terms time interval.) At least that is how it was shown on RF's images for Siglent.
That means that if you use segments, in order to decode third burst of data (3 history segment) you go to 3rd segment manually, and it will decode it for you.

Keysight (and Picoscope) decodes in a table, where you can choose to see only current buffer (like Rigols and it seems Siglent 1000E-X), but you can tell it to scan through all buffers, and decode them to single unified decode table. So you can see decode and move around seamlessly. If 1000E-X cannot do that, that would be GREAT upgrade.

And that connects sort of with this:

"Sad part is that Siglent 1000X-E has always running "history buffers" that are VERY useful and very understated function. It is basically always on segmented memory. That is not mentioned enough."
[/i]
Picoscope has same always running segmented memory. Meaning that at any time, you can stop and go several hundred trigger events back.  R&S 2000/3000/4000 have something similar.
Picoscope also have fast segmented mode (also Siglent), that doesn't update screen to minimize blind time. LeCroy has similar thing.
On all other scopes (Keysight Rigol) you have to manually enter segmented mode, an it is only fast mode.
1000X-E has it running all the time with a bit larger blind time but very useful.

As for as decoding what is not on the screen, that is a funny topic.  In my mind (analog scope) you have ONLY what you have on screen. If I want to see more I expand timebase.  It seems some scopes capture samples you didn't tell the to capture, so you have pre-screen and post-screen data. And some people got used to it using it that way. I actually prefer that scope takes exactly amount of data I told it to take. And if I need more I will set scope to capture longer set. Long capture +zoom is exactly for that. In which decode table will be for whole capture, and zoomed portion will have visual decode under it. It will not break up because it knows there is more data. Rigol subscribes to this PHILOSOPHY of thinking.

Some other manufacturers are doing it differently. If you are used to this, it feels more right to you. That is fine with me. I have many different tools and they all have their own idiosyncrasies. I learn how they work and adapt to them. Such is life.

For all these reasons I got Picoscope for decoding. Despite their own problems, their way was most logical to me, and let's me use it without problems.

Regards,
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on January 12, 2019, 11:40:56 am
Explanation: Siglent captured 1000 segments, but on how it is shown on those RF's pics, it is decoding every segment separately. It is not one big table with 2000 packets. It is 1000 segments with 2 packets each, and you have to go from segment to segment to decode that one.
Both Keysight 3000T and Picoscope can show all packets from all segments as one big capture. I don't know if MSO5000 or Siglent have that. Would like to know.
AFAIK Besides Keysight and (according to you Picoscope) I don't know any oscilloscope manufacturer which shows the decoded data from all segments in one bus table. To me this is an obvious thing to do but the only oscilloscope I had in my hands which did that was an (older) Agilent DSO7104A. OTOH the Keysight units don't have much memory compared to the competition so you are much more likely to use segments on a Keysight scope where you might be able to get away with a single acquisition on a scope with more memory.

BTW there are quite a few scopes which only do 'on screen decoding'. AFAIK most (if not all) Siglent scopes and some tests Martin72 did with his Rigol MSO5000 seem to indicate that the MSO5000 also decodes only what is on screen. One of the 'problems' associated with decoding is that it needs a parallel process and memory which runs in parallel with acquisition OR it is a post processing operation. The first needs extra hardware, the latter needs a lot of processing power especially when the oscilloscope has a lot of memory (like the MSO5000). Given the high samplerate of the MSO5000 it may not even be able to do decoding in the hardware and thus making decoding only possible as a post-processing step. If the latter is true then Rigol made a serious mistake in the hardware design.

Hi Nico!

One of the reasons I bought Pico was the fact that it can decode current buffer or all buffers in one big table. It works well. It is also obvious to me and was wondering why nobody does it as standard.

New Rigol series decodes in FPGA.  And as I said, it decodes "screen length of data". Not from screen pixels. So you just grab really long capture. It has 100s of MS of memory. It will capture it with high sample rate and will decode thousands of packets. Then you search and zoom. In that regard it is actually similar to Tektronix mso3000/4000 series without segments. With 10x more memory.
I wouldn't say it is useless. Just not as good as it could be.
Regards,
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on January 12, 2019, 11:50:45 am

BTW there are quite a few scopes which only do 'on screen decoding'. AFAIK most (if not all) Siglent scopes and some tests Martin72 did with his Rigol MSO5000 seem to indicate that the MSO5000 also decodes only what is on screen.

On the siglent 1000X-E series, you could turn the channels "off" and it still decodes( showing in the event table).

The 5000 rigol decode what´s on the screen.
But there is a difference to e.g. the rigol ds1000.
Where the ds1000 sucks with decoding when you set the timebase (in my case) from 20 to 50µs, the 5000 decodes further untill 20ms.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: tautech on January 12, 2019, 01:02:31 pm
Yeah well if you know your tools, you'll know how to get the best from them.
How many packets do you want to place on the display, your choice, a few or many 100's ?
A couple of simple examples from another thread:

(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds1104x-e-uartserial-decode-for-9-bit-multidropmultiprocessor-protocol/?action=dlattach;attach=619003)

(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds1104x-e-uartserial-decode-for-9-bit-multidropmultiprocessor-protocol/?action=dlattach;attach=619363)

Both screenshots are with the X-E in RUN mode using just edge triggering and the highlighted line in the Decode table shows the packet immediately after the trigger, so whatever # it is in the table, it's halfway through the Decode list and time stamped.

Unlike the previously linked 'decoding in Sequence mode' example by rf-loop the above screenshots are using the split screen in Zoom mode are typical of how to get the best from Siglent DSO's when decoding.....all Siglent models that offer decode can work this way.

If anyone wants to see more jump into this thread and have a hunt or ask for further examples:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/ (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on January 12, 2019, 01:58:19 pm
The downside of the 'Siglent way' is that you are cluttering the (already not so big screen) screen with a mandatory zoom window. Otherwise AFAIK it will only decode what is on screen.

@2N3055: I wouldn't want to start a semantic discussion by 'what is on screen' means  8) Let's just define it by the trace shown on the screen. There is a way too large variety of how oscilloscopes do decoding to make a good definition. Some scopes even decode properly when the samplerate is way too low so even though the trace looks like garbage the decoded data is still good.

Either way, one of the downsides of oscilloscopes which decode only what is on screen is that they miss the start of the message and can no longer decode when looking into a detail of the data. Also in many cases you'll want to look at a specific message. If the amount of data being decoded depends on the amount of trace displayed and you need to look at the 20th message at 10ms/div then which message do you need with the time base set at 1ms/div? With the bus decoding table changing you'd need to write down the timestamp.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on January 12, 2019, 10:35:15 pm
Given the high samplerate of the MSO5000 it may not even be able to do decoding in the hardware and thus making decoding only possible as a post-processing step. If the latter is true then Rigol made a serious mistake in the hardware design.

What should they have done to fix it? Lower the sample rate to a point where it's possible to do it?

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on January 12, 2019, 10:42:44 pm
Yeah well if you know your tools, you'll know how to get the best from them.

That's true.

In the case of this new Rigol the information you need was posted a couple of pages back:

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2034745/#msg2034745 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2034745/#msg2034745)

Apparently you can zoom out until 1000+ SPI clock pulses are contained in a single pixel "on screen" and it still decodes correctly.

This, combined with the 400M memory of the Rigol makes it a clear winner vs. the Siglent IMHO.

(plus people are busy making little PCBs to break out the digital part of "MSO" cheaply)

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rpl1116-active-logic-probe-pod-for-1000z-series-teardown/ (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rpl1116-active-logic-probe-pod-for-1000z-series-teardown/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: seronday on January 13, 2019, 10:26:34 am
   I recently had the use of a Rigol MSO5074 for a period of time and have been able to measure and record the frequency response with both the original bandwidth and the full bandwidth.
The signal source was connected via a "T" piece with a 50ohm termination on to the Ch1 input connector of the MSO.

Several comments have been made about the lack of brightness on the MSO5000 series display .
To my eyes the display appears to be similar to other Rigol DSO's that I have used in recent times ( DS2000 and DS4000 series ), and is certainly not dull.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on January 13, 2019, 10:38:38 am
Quote
Several comments have been made about the lack of brightness on the MSO5000 series display .

It´s not the brightest on the market, for sure  - But it didn´t disturb me as much as others do, who hadn´t a 5000 rigol…. ;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on January 16, 2019, 02:26:43 am
Keysight announced the 1000X series 4-channel scopes and they start at USD 998 in the US for the base model, $1204 with AWG...

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-4-channel-scope-(1200-x-series)/msg2120590/#msg2120590 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-4-channel-scope-(1200-x-series)/msg2120590/#msg2120590)

Would you still buy the Rigol MSO5074 or go with the new Keysight?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Vtech on January 16, 2019, 03:43:38 am
Would you still buy the Rigol MSO5074 or go with the new Keysight?

Keysight 1000X: 2Gsps, 1M memory, 7 inch 800x480 TFT no touch, no logic analyzer option.
Closer to Rigol DS1000z than to MSO5000 series. I would definitely go with Rigol's MSO5000.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: supercilious on January 16, 2019, 03:47:23 am
Keysight's lower-end scopes are too low memory to be even considered for my purposes, 1M (or even 10M) is just not acceptable in 2019. Shame as they are nice scopes otherwise. No other UI feels as fast as the Keysight instruments in my experience.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on January 16, 2019, 06:56:35 am
Would you still buy the Rigol MSO5074 or go with the new Keysight?

Rigol is hackable so you get all options/upgrades for $999

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on January 16, 2019, 07:05:44 am
Would you still buy the Rigol MSO5074 or go with the new Keysight?

Rigol is hackable so you get all options/upgrades for $999
So far it is the same for Keysight scopes
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: thomil on January 16, 2019, 07:24:41 am
Would you still buy the Rigol MSO5074 or go with the new Keysight?

Rigol is hackable so you get all options/upgrades for $999
So far it is the same for Keysight scopes

I think I read in another thread that the new 4 channel 1000 series scopes from Keysight are Linux based, whereas the 2 channel versions were Windows CE based. Are there any reports whether the old hacking methods still apply to the 4 Linux based versions?

Anyway, this is probably OT in here.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on January 16, 2019, 09:48:27 am
Quote
Closer to Rigol DS1000z than to MSO5000 series.

Yepp.
Much more memory, more math functions, ten times more waveform updates, bigger screen and so on.
No comparison.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: nctnico on January 16, 2019, 10:44:28 am
Keysight announced the 1000X series 4-channel scopes and they start at USD 998 in the US for the base model, $1204 with AWG...

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-4-channel-scope-(1200-x-series)/msg2120590/#msg2120590 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-4-channel-scope-(1200-x-series)/msg2120590/#msg2120590)

Would you still buy the Rigol MSO5074 or go with the new Keysight?
These scopes aren't comparable at all. MSO5074 is more in the league of Keysight's 3000 series or R&S RTB2000.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TheSteve on January 16, 2019, 10:45:42 am
Keysight announced the 1000X series 4-channel scopes and they start at USD 998 in the US for the base model, $1204 with AWG...

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-4-channel-scope-(1200-x-series)/msg2120590/#msg2120590 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-4-channel-scope-(1200-x-series)/msg2120590/#msg2120590)

Would you still buy the Rigol MSO5074 or go with the new Keysight?
These scopes aren't comparable at all. MSO5074 is more in the league of Keysight's 3000 series or R&S RTB2000.

Maybe the Keysight 2000, but not the 3000.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on January 16, 2019, 02:43:39 pm
Keysight announced the 1000X series 4-channel scopes and they start at USD 998 in the US for the base model, $1204 with AWG...

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-4-channel-scope-(1200-x-series)/msg2120590/#msg2120590 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-4-channel-scope-(1200-x-series)/msg2120590/#msg2120590)

Would you still buy the Rigol MSO5074 or go with the new Keysight?
These scopes aren't comparable at all. MSO5074 is more in the league of Keysight's 3000 series or R&S RTB2000.

Maybe the Keysight 2000, but not the 3000.

I have a 5074 and a keysight 3000.  The 3000 is definately better than the 5074! But its also a LOT more expensive.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Electro Fan on January 16, 2019, 04:30:42 pm
Keysight announced the 1000X series 4-channel scopes and they start at USD 998 in the US for the base model, $1204 with AWG...

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-4-channel-scope-(1200-x-series)/msg2120590/#msg2120590 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-4-channel-scope-(1200-x-series)/msg2120590/#msg2120590)

Would you still buy the Rigol MSO5074 or go with the new Keysight?
These scopes aren't comparable at all. MSO5074 is more in the league of Keysight's 3000 series or R&S RTB2000.

Maybe the Keysight 2000, but not the 3000.

I have a 5074 and a keysight 3000.  The 3000 is definately better than the 5074! But its also a LOT more expensive.

What are the top features/functions/performance specs or other criteria that make the Keysight 3000 definitely better than the Rigol 5074?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: mrpackethead on January 16, 2019, 05:41:15 pm
Keysight announced the 1000X series 4-channel scopes and they start at USD 998 in the US for the base model, $1204 with AWG...

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-4-channel-scope-(1200-x-series)/msg2120590/#msg2120590 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-4-channel-scope-(1200-x-series)/msg2120590/#msg2120590)

Would you still buy the Rigol MSO5074 or go with the new Keysight?
These scopes aren't comparable at all. MSO5074 is more in the league of Keysight's 3000 series or R&S RTB2000.

Maybe the Keysight 2000, but not the 3000.

I have a 5074 and a keysight 3000.  The 3000 is definately better than the 5074! But its also a LOT more expensive.

What are the top features/functions/performance specs or other criteria that make the Keysight 3000 definitely better than the Rigol 5074?

Its got a lot less bugs than the 5074.  Mine is 1Ghz.  Its UI is far better, the screen nicer..   50R inputs,       
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on January 16, 2019, 10:14:17 pm
Autopobe interfaces
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on January 16, 2019, 11:50:44 pm
Autopobe interfaces
Autoprobe interface in 3000 series is not fully featured. It doesn't have full current capability. First one with full interface is 4000 series.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: IanMacdonald on January 17, 2019, 01:51:23 am
White stuff gets really dirty really quickly. Black stuff you can't see it as bad.
Black ThinkPad here too which is really mucky but you can't see it :)

Yellowing by sunlight is a really big problem with white plastic. It seems to go right through the material and you can't even sand or grind it off.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TK on January 17, 2019, 02:04:09 am
White stuff gets really dirty really quickly. Black stuff you can't see it as bad.
Black ThinkPad here too which is really mucky but you can't see it :)

Yellowing by sunlight is a really big problem with white plastic. It seems to go right through the material and you can't even sand or grind it off.
There is a technique called RetroBrite to remove the yellowing from vintage plastic.  It is used extensively to restore vintage personal computers
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on January 17, 2019, 05:58:29 am
Maybe the Keysight 2000, but not the 3000.

Yep, rigol itself compares the 5000 with the keysight 2000 or the tek mso 2000 series.


Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: LapTop006 on January 17, 2019, 03:36:15 pm
Autopobe interfaces
Autoprobe interface in 3000 series is not fully featured. It doesn't have full current capability. First one with full interface is 4000 series.

S-series I think, the 4k/6k series don't support non-5v probes.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: 2N3055 on January 17, 2019, 09:44:53 pm
Autopobe interfaces
Autoprobe interface in 3000 series is not fully featured. It doesn't have full current capability. First one with full interface is 4000 series.

S-series I think, the 4k/6k series don't support non-5v probes.

I'm sorry I wasn't clear.  In addition that it doesn't support all the probes as S series, 3000T cannot have some probe combinations connected at the same time.

See here, from the Keysight itself:

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight-3000t-probe-compatibility/msg1107914/#msg1107914 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight-3000t-probe-compatibility/msg1107914/#msg1107914)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Shodge on January 19, 2019, 05:02:04 pm
Just received my 5072.  Went through the simple 'upgrade' and this scope is very nice.  I was slightly disappointed in the AWG - limited frequency and voltage will hamper its use.

Does anyone know how to set the trigger to the beginning of the buffer?  It seems you can change where the horz expansion takes place but not move the trigger point?  Maybe I am overlooking something....

Thanks,
-Stan
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Shodge on January 20, 2019, 04:35:57 pm
I answered my own question.  The answer is not quite as straight forward as setting the trigger point in memory.  Instead you must shrink the horz to see the full captured data, then scroll it to manipulate its location in the buffer.  It works....  I was able to capture about 10 seconds of 9600 baud decoded serial data and scroll through it.  Used the serial data = xx trigger and zoom to move around the data.  Pretty nice.

I also did not see much talk of it but there is a web based control / view as well.  Not real fast - but it does not need to be.  Works well...

FYI..
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Rora on January 21, 2019, 10:07:35 pm
I'm also trying to decide between Keysight 1000X and Rigol 5000 series. Spec-wise, the Rigol blows it out of the water, but I'll be using it for a general purpose microcontroller stuff, paired with a Saleae Logic Pro. Although scopes are considered the primary workhorse of any electronics lab, for strictly microcontroller work it seems agreed that the logic analyzer takes this role. Custom decoding profiles on the Saleae make it a necessity.

The spec's should make it an easy decision, but I'm actually considering whether the better UI and smaller form factor are more practical on an everyday basis than an extra 1.75x bandwidth, 4x Gsa/sec, 200x Mpts, and 10x wfms/s. There's also touchscreen, which seems nice but I wonder how often it would really be a gamechanger. I wouldn't be investing in the MSO adapter so that feature isn't useful to me.

On paper, this seems like a stupid comparison, but in practice, the Keysight seems a lot more refined and nice to use, and the spec's seem more than enough for my purposes. Hypothetically when working on microcontrollers, this would only be used for verifying signal integrity, after which most of the debugging work would be done on the Saleae. As much as I'd like to pay less for much bigger numbers, I suspect most of the capability will go unused, unlike a faster, better designed UI.

Thoughts? How much better is the Keysight UI, really? What are the differences in practice, and how would those affect work efficiency with microcontrollers?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on January 21, 2019, 11:55:20 pm
Hypothetically when working on microcontrollers, this would only be used for verifying signal integrity, after which most of the debugging work would be done on the Saleae. As much as I'd like to pay less for much bigger numbers, I suspect most of the capability will go unused, unlike a faster, better designed UI.

For "signal integrity"? Bandwidth and sample rate are the most important things.

But...  if a Saleae is fast enough for your signals then I can't help thinking that even a hacked Rigol DS1054Z would be able to do the job. With a single channel you get 1GHz sample rate and nearly 200Mhz of bandwidth.

(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=521522;image)

How much better is the Keysight UI, really?

That's going to be very subjective. I wouldn't make a decision like that by asking in forums, I'd want to try it myself.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on January 22, 2019, 09:04:13 am
If I had the money, I´ll surely go for the R&S RTB 2004 - But I don´t and therefore I count on rigol for making their raw diamond to a shining one... ;)
By the way I did a request to rigol.eu for the first official firmware update, when it will be launched.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on January 23, 2019, 05:50:04 am
Fast response:

They work hard on it, should be launched in the middle/end of february.
And it seems, they have their eyes on the problems posted here and in the bug-thread.. ;)

Martin
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Noy on January 23, 2019, 06:59:54 am
Hi I'm currently "upgrading" my equipment..
I sold my DS1054z and ordered a MSO5074.
I still have a Hameg HMO3504 but no pods and no 350MHz probes. So it was for me a better deal to buy the MSO and use the Rigol probes on both. And i will build a selfmade pod for the Rigol.
 
Also i sold my OLS and purchased the DSLogic Plus (wan't a USB LA because sometimes it is more comfortable).

Now I'm considering if it is worth to buy a FY6800-60? Or is the build in AWG from the MSO enough? I still have an old Toellner 7401.
Maybe i should sell him...?


Also hope they don't have their eyes to wide open.. so they don't shut up their scope.

A nice future use feature which i wish is the bode plot function like siglent have...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on January 23, 2019, 07:34:08 am
Yes therefore I bought a 1104X-E before the 5000 had launched.
Together with an siglent arbitrary gen.
The generator I still have, I´m not trusting the build in awg….
In general, "7 in 1" or "5 in 1" intruments sounds for me like the "good old" stereo compact centers from the 70s/80s.  ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Noy on January 23, 2019, 07:43:01 am
I know what you mean...
Main reason for the MSO was buttons for each Channel and a bigger Screen..
And of course 350MHz BW with probes..
4  new 350MHz Hameg probes are more than half the price for the MSO...

So now is the question, is the Toellner analog FG & build in MSO AWG better than purchasing an additional FY6800?

Maybe selling the TOE 7401..?

I don't want to pay several hundreds euro for a sometimes used AWG only for the "Brand" Rigol/siglent ...


Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on January 23, 2019, 08:03:34 am
Quote
I don't want to pay several hundreds euro for a sometimes used AWG only for the "Brand" Rigol/siglent ...

I know what you mean…. ;)

I think for sometimes in use and if you don´t Need amplitudes above 5v, the built-in awg would be enough.
And now I´m going to my siglent awg, blowing the dust away…. 8)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: orion242 on January 25, 2019, 01:33:12 pm
Got mine today.  Not seeing any real difference in screen brightness myself.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on January 26, 2019, 08:54:40 am
Mhh….
You compare it with another rigol…. ;)
Took my 5074 back to work for recording the displaying of PWM signals for the rigol support (actually I´m in touch with them, nearly daily - excellent support from rigol.eu by the way), I must dim the light on my desk to see everything on the screen almost bright.
But it´s not the most annoying thing.
On a friday afternoon none is here, I got my calm - And then switching on the 5074....The fan, god, only Lecroy Wavejets can "beat" it.
Rigol should allow customers the exchange to a silence one without loosing warranty…..
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: orion242 on January 27, 2019, 04:17:05 pm
You compare it with another rigol…. ;)

Either your under operating room light level or take off your sunglasses.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on January 28, 2019, 10:31:16 am
We´re wearing sunglasses since we got new LED Lights in our department... 8)

Seriously, the display isn´t the brightest one on the market plus the limitated angle view.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on February 02, 2019, 09:49:06 am
Quote
Seriously, the display isn´t the brightest one on the market plus the limitated angle view.

Ideal place for it is on the desk itself, in the shelf above it appears too dark.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on February 02, 2019, 09:46:46 pm
Quote
Seriously, the display isn´t the brightest one on the market plus the limitated angle view.

Ideal place for it is on the desk itself, in the shelf above it appears too dark.

Brightness might be controlled by a single resistor. Should be hackable.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: oliv3r on February 03, 2019, 09:46:58 am
Quote
Seriously, the display isn´t the brightest one on the market plus the limitated angle view.

Ideal place for it is on the desk itself, in the shelf above it appears too dark.

Brightness might be controlled by a single resistor. Should be hackable.
At the cost of reduces lifetime :) but probably yes. Apearantly it runs at 9. something volt and the absolute max is 10.2 i belive
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on February 03, 2019, 10:25:23 am
Lifetime...10 Years, 20 Years…..or less than 5.....

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Noy on February 06, 2019, 02:47:20 am
Got a mail from Batronix..
My scope shipping will be delayed.. They said beginnt of february now its beginn of march....
Hopefully not with a new Firmware...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Fungus on February 06, 2019, 05:58:33 am
Got a mail from Batronix..
My scope shipping will be delayed.. They said beginnt of february now its beginn of march....
Hopefully not with a new Firmware...

Don't worry, the people at Rigol already know the reason why they can't manufacture them fast enough to keep up with demand.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: TopLoser on February 06, 2019, 06:11:19 am
Plenty of 5074 in stock at Batterfly
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on February 06, 2019, 07:25:30 am
Quote
They said beginnt of february now its beginn of march....
Hopefully not with a new Firmware...

Official new firmware will be launched between mid/end of february.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: orion242 on February 06, 2019, 01:07:39 pm
Lifetime...10 Years, 20 Years…..or less than 5.....

<5 because they keep coming out with a better hackable unit...forcing the hand to upgrade.

..least says the guy that dumped his crow for 1052, now three Rigols later.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on February 08, 2019, 08:06:01 am
Brightness might be controlled by a single resistor. Should be hackable.

Maybe it  musn´t be hacked.
Rigol have it on their to-do list(did a request About)..
Title: Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
Post by: Martin72 on February 13, 2019, 07:51:43 am
Hi,

It isn´t really a bug, but today was the first time I used more than one math channel.
I took the low pass filter Funktion on three channels to filter out three phase sinewaves from pwm.
And they all got the same colour....
All 4 traces are violet - very irritating in cases described before.
Hope they´ll change it into 4 different colours.  :P