Author Topic: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope  (Read 49099 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #300 on: November 30, 2018, 09:42:29 am »
What FW Version you got ?

I show it in the video at 33:21
1.01.02.03
Hardware 1.00.000
I had later firmware but could not figure out how to load it.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #301 on: November 30, 2018, 09:48:09 am »
People ask about differences between 'A' brand and 'B' brand scopes. That video sums it up pretty well. Poor attention to detail. Mostly not even bugs, just bad design - copying competitors without really understanding what's important.
How did anyone think that decode display makes sense? - useless "D:" marks wasting over half the screen space, unuseably small gaps between logic channels, nonfunctional colour selection, poor UI choices (label entry).

Yep, and this is just the stuff I happened to play with.
Started the video wanting to show some features, but I kept finding little niggly things everywhere.
More advanced scopes like these need a lot of attention to detail in software, and it's a huge job.
I hope it gets better.
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #302 on: November 30, 2018, 09:49:24 am »
Quote
Mostly not even bugs, just bad design

That´s the point, bugs are everywhere.

For example LeCroy Wavesurfer 3000 series….many FW updates so far, although it´s a "A" - brand.

Teledyne told me once, this is a value scope and this describe it very well.

Have a look on the prices for it...for Lecroy it´s cheap stuff.
For Rigol and Co. this would be the top of the end.
And that´s it.
It´s hobbyist class.

 

Offline orion242

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #303 on: November 30, 2018, 02:26:58 pm »
bugs are everywhere.

Yea wow.

Unless they fix things, even if its hackable...do you really want to always second guess your gear?  Looks like an endless time suck to save a few bucks...

Thanks for the videos Dave!
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 02:34:06 pm by orion242 »
 

Offline bitseeker

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #304 on: November 30, 2018, 02:28:42 pm »
Might be OK in two or three years. Then again, there's the 4000/6000 track record. :-//
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Offline Bud

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #305 on: November 30, 2018, 03:21:49 pm »
It´s hobbyist class.

My hobby time is valuable as i do not have much time for it. Therefore i  never buy chinese garbage. When hobbying i want to focus on my circuit, not waste my life fighting with this piece of shit.
 
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Offline Monkeh

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #306 on: November 30, 2018, 03:56:20 pm »
It´s hobbyist class.

My hobby time is valuable as i do not have much time for it. Therefore i  never buy chinese garbage. When hobbying i want to focus on my circuit, not waste my life fighting with this piece of shit.

You're quite happy to waste your life flaming them every chance you get, though.
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #307 on: November 30, 2018, 09:40:30 pm »
I would prefer a red, green, blue and yellow trace. Why is there a pink trace???

Because "engineering".

a) It's magenta, not pink.

b) The first three colors are yellow, cyan, magenta because they're the three most visible colors on an RGB screen.

 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #308 on: November 30, 2018, 10:13:23 pm »
What FW Version you got ?

It's in the video: 01.01.02.03

(which seems like an early, pre-release number to me)

 

Online TopLoser

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #309 on: December 01, 2018, 03:13:17 am »
What FW Version you got ?

It's in the video: 01.01.02.03

(which seems like an early, pre-release number to me)

That's the version scopes are shipping with.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #310 on: December 01, 2018, 04:43:06 am »
(which seems like an early, pre-release number to me)

That's the version scopes are shipping with.

Well, that's the way of managers/bosses.  :-//

Let's hope the first update won't take long.

(And no, it's not just Rigol that does this, every 'scope released in recent memory seems to do the same)
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #311 on: December 01, 2018, 04:55:08 am »
So..
This piece of sh...ehhh.. rigol has arrived  ;)
I will give it time to acclimate to room temperature..
Looks bigger as in Daves vid, well build, all in all it makes me curious for the first use.

 

Offline Martin72

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #312 on: December 01, 2018, 07:25:07 am »
Quote
That's the version scopes are shipping with.

Yep, got the same version...And yes, it must be a very early version:
Some functions are not avaible and "greyed out", perhaps functional with an option/firmware upgrade, seems normal to me.
BUT:
"Options Install", "Online Upgrade" and "Local Upgrade" are also deactivated... :-//


By the way, display looks nice, FFT can be displayed alone, boot time is looong, fan is annoying.
But my first impressions are mostly positive, will take it to work on monday, for real testing.


Edit:

For the "wishlist" : Waveform output format: Only .bin and .csv avaible, Mathlab and Mathcad must be added....hopefully








« Last Edit: December 01, 2018, 07:47:00 am by Martin72 »
 
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Offline thm_w

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #313 on: December 01, 2018, 08:06:46 am »
Hopefully these bugs will be fixable, but its almost all in the logic analyzer, which honestly I don't care much about. As Dave says, for $400, you can get a much nicer PC based unit.

For the "wishlist" : Waveform output format: Only .bin and .csv avaible, Mathlab and Mathcad must be added....hopefully

You can import csv into matlab though.
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #314 on: December 01, 2018, 09:04:37 am »
Ah, ok.
Saw it on our Wavesurfer 3024, you can choose between csv, bin, matlab, matcad - and then, between frequency or amplitude or both...nice to have.

Quote
Hopefully these bugs will be fixable, but its almost all in the logic analyzer, which honestly I don't care much about


Me too, in case of the logic analyzer, but proper decoding of for example SPI will be important for me/us.
Further the missing Hi-Res Mode, but we shouldn´t forget the fact, this scope is really new, maybe too early released.
Rigol let the customer find out the bugs...
And they´re not alone with this policy.
 

Offline glenenglish

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #315 on: December 02, 2018, 09:04:43 am »
Considering that this is a pre production release, and beta software, this is a pretty good result.
The sample rate is the big diff to other scopes. High sample rate rules for looking at glitches and bus fights
High sample rates help the diagnosis of bus fights .

I strenuously disagree with the assertion in the video that the R&S might be a better value proposition.
No chance ! Dave how  (the hell) did you formulate this idea ?

The sample rate is king. 4Gsps in 2ch mode, 2Gsps in four channel mode puts this scope into the realms of the big boys.

R&S RTM3004 :  4 channel mode SR is 2.5Gsps USD4250. Rigol USD1500 at 2 Gsps

R&S RTB2000 :4 channel mode SR is  1.25 Gsps USD2400. Rigol USD1500 at 2 Gsps.

I have ordered a 100 MHz one from Emona, they have 70 and 100 MHz scopes in their first shipment.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 11:46:08 am by glenenglish »
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #316 on: December 02, 2018, 09:39:01 am »
Considering that this is a pre production release, and beta software, this is a pretty good result.
The sample rate is the big diff to other scopes. High sample rate rules for looking at glitches and bus fights
High sample rates help the diagnosis of bus fights .

I strenuously disagree with the assertion in the video that the R&S might be a better value proposition.
No chance ! Dave how  (the hell) did you formulate this idea ?
The sample rate is king. 4Gsps in 2ch mode, 2Gsps in four channel mode puts this scope into the realms of the big boys.
Not really. The limited bandwidth kills a spike long before you see it being sampled. No matter what the samplerate is, ultimately the bandwidth dictates what you see and what you don't see. Having an excessively high samplerate just fills the memory quicker with data which has no additional information. For sin x/x reconstruction to work a samplerate of 2.5 times the bandwidth is enough. If you sample any faster you won't get any additional information.
Quote
R&S RTM3004 :  4 channel mode SR is 1.25Gsps USD4250. Rigol USD1500 at 2 Gsps

R&S RTB2000 :4 channel mode SR is  1.25 Gsps USD2400. Rigol USD1500 at 2 Gsps.

I have ordered a 100 MHz one from Emona, they have 70 and 100 MHz scopes in their first shipment.
You got the numbers wrong for the RTM3004. In 4 channel mode it has 2.5Gsps (and 1GHz bandwidth on the top model).

If you want to look at glitches and timing errors in digital systems then a used high-end logic analyser is a much better buy. It will have very high samplerates and more bandwidth for peanuts.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2018, 09:44:34 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline TheSteve

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #317 on: December 02, 2018, 09:42:35 am »
Considering that this is a pre production release, and beta software, this is a pretty good result.
The sample rate is the big diff to other scopes. High sample rate rules for looking at glitches and bus fights
High sample rates help the diagnosis of bus fights .

I strenuously disagree with the assertion in the video that the R&S might be a better value proposition.
No chance ! Dave how  (the hell) did you formulate this idea ?

The sample rate is king. 4Gsps in 2ch mode, 2Gsps in four channel mode puts this scope into the realms of the big boys.

R&S RTM3004 :  4 channel mode SR is 1.25Gsps USD4250. Rigol USD1500 at 2 Gsps

R&S RTB2000 :4 channel mode SR is  1.25 Gsps USD2400. Rigol USD1500 at 2 Gsps.

I have ordered a 100 MHz one from Emona, they have 70 and 100 MHz scopes in their first shipment.

Dave's is the same hardware and firmware that is shipping with production models - so you can't call it pre-production or beta. Or at least you shouldn't. It is an early release that is clearly full of bugs/usability issues though.
VE7FM
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #318 on: December 02, 2018, 09:53:49 am »
Quote
The sample rate is king. 4Gsps in 2ch mode, 2Gsps in four channel mode puts this scope into the realms of the big boys.

The hardware seems really mighty with the price in mind, if they optimize the software, it would be a killer.
But R&S with their RTB2000 will still be my favourite under the hobbyist-scopes.
10bit resolution, the fantastic looking big display...unfortunately 2.5x the price of a MSO5074 and the options are expensive.
Rigol itself compares the 5000 against Tek and Keysight their 2000s models.



 

Offline nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #319 on: December 02, 2018, 10:29:57 am »
Quote
The sample rate is king. 4Gsps in 2ch mode, 2Gsps in four channel mode puts this scope into the realms of the big boys.

The hardware seems really mighty with the price in mind, if they optimize the software, it would be a killer.
But R&S with their RTB2000 will still be my favourite under the hobbyist-scopes.
10bit resolution, the fantastic looking big display...unfortunately 2.5x the price of a MSO5074 and the options are expensive.
Rigol itself compares the 5000 against Tek and Keysight their 2000s models.
That may be but you have to look beyond the price and do some serious testing to see if the MSO5000 meets your needs for now and in the foreseable future. And I don't mean after Rigol has fixed the bugs but right now when you can still return it with no hassle. A couple of years ago I made the mistake to trust a B-brand to fix the bugs quickly but that ended up with me having to throw 2000 euros into the trash AND pay for a working oscilloscope on top of that.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #320 on: December 02, 2018, 10:47:38 am »
Therefore I will test it at work.

And what You say about B-brands:

LeCroy surely counts to the A´s, but their WS 3024 is the best example that the name doesn´t automatically guaranteed confidence in every way.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #321 on: December 02, 2018, 10:59:13 am »
Therefore I will test it at work.

And what You say about B-brands:

LeCroy surely counts to the A´s, but their WS 3024 is the best example that the name doesn´t automatically guaranteed confidence in every way.
I wouldn't call Lecroy a real A-brand. The stuff Lecroy designs themselves is OK-ish (nice features but the hardware isn't always that good) but they also rebrand a lot of low-end stuff which isn't at the level you'd expect from an A-brand when it comes to the firmware. At the low end Lecroy tries to fill their portfolio so they can offer one-stop shopping. What I hear and see around me is that people buy Lecroy mostly for doing signal analysis but it is at the bottom of their list.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2018, 11:23:04 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline lukier

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #322 on: December 02, 2018, 11:41:16 am »
LeCroy surely counts to the A´s, but their WS 3024 is the best example that the name doesn´t automatically guaranteed confidence in every way.

I think WS3024 is really Siglent, not real LeCroy.

I wouldn't call Lecroy a real A-brand. The stuff Lecroy designs themselves is OK-ish (nice features but the hardware isn't always that good) but they also rebrand a lot of low-end stuff which isn't at the level you'd expect from an A-brand when it comes to the firmware. What I hear and see around me is that people buy Lecroy mostly for doing signal analysis but it is at the bottom of their list.

I have old WaveRunner 6100A and it is A-brand whatever it means. It is an old scope (introduced in 2004) and still running circles around most modern scopes like KS 3000/4000/6000 or R&S RTO2000/RTM3000 (before I got it I wanted to buy MSOX3014T but both distributors were rather clueless so I went to eBay instead and saved some money that I've spent on various active probes):
  • 1 GHz bandwidth (actually closer to 1.5 according to Leo Bodnar's pulser),
  • 5 / 10 GSPS (2CH/4CH),
  • 12 / 24 Mpts sample memory,
  • 125 kwfm/s trigger rate,
  • ProBus interface - plenty of cheap active probes, no problems with compatibility, been around since the 90's probably,
  • dozens of protocol decoders, signal, jitter & power analysis, FFT and real time spectrum analysis with waterfall etc,
  • unparalled math capabilites, one can do functions on channels, reference waveforms, other functions and on measurements and then a measurement on a function on a measurement etc, additionally with XDEV option one can write custom functions & measurements in MATLAB or C++.

Probably the only drawback is the lack of real low noise FE & ADC like R&S has, although LeCroy has pretty clever 11 bit mode called ERES:
http://teledynelecroy.com/doc/differences-between-eres-and-hires

Before the recent Keysight UXR it was LeCroy who had 100 GHz scope since 2014, so not calling it A-brand is a bit rich in my opinion.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #323 on: December 02, 2018, 11:51:09 am »
A typical A-brand has a portfolio for which they designed most of the products themselves. Having all the intimate knowledge about the product means problems can be solved quickly. Lecroy has never done that. They design mostly high-end gear with very nice features and augment their portfolio with rebadges from other brands. The result is that they can't support all of their products in a way you'd expect from an A-brand.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2018, 11:53:15 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline lukier

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Re: EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope
« Reply #324 on: December 02, 2018, 11:57:15 am »
A typical A-brand has a portfolio for which they designed most of the products themselves. Having all the intimate knowledge about the product means problems can be solved quickly. Lecroy has never done that. They design mostly high-end gear with very nice features and augment their portfolio with rebadges from other brands. The result is that they can't support all of their products in a way you'd expect from an A-brand.

I also don't get why LeCroy insists on rebadging stuff, their brand is worth more than their markup on Siglent, but it is common market trend unfortunately.

By your logic you cannot call Keithley (rebadges Itech and Picotest) or Keysight (rebadged Rigol or Preamble probes) A-brands as well.
 


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