PAYPAL / EBAY FRAUD: item not received and no refund from paypal - please help!

[ecom.gp]

Hello everyone.
I’ve been following the EEVblog and this forum for a very long time and now I’m joining the community to share my experience (a bad one unfortunately) and ask for your help and advices.
On June 09, 2015 I won the following auction for an Agilent 33250A waveform generator:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221790550257

As you can see from the auction page, the seller accepts paypal and the purchase is claimed to be covered by the ebay/paypal buyer protection program.
Everyone should be able to see the BIG BOLD CLAIM: “ebay MONEY BACK GUARANTEE - Get the item you ordered or get your money back. Covers your purchase price and original shipping”.
So far so good. On 11 June, 2015 I send the payment and on 16.06.2015 the seller marks the item as shipped providing the DHL tracking number (961101085832).
To be clear I paid 22EUR for a DHL Paket International, which covers transport loss or damage up to 500EUR and typically delivers in my country in no more than four working days.
As I know this shipping service and I’m used to see the parcels moving quickly within the DHL network you will probably understand my surprise for not seeing any progress at all in the tracking system during the following week.

I don’t want to bore you with all the details so I’ll go straight to the point.
I asked the seller for an explanation many and many times and all I was able to get was a request to be patient and wait more time.
On July 2nd, tired of waiting, I filed a paypal dispute which was then escalated to a claim when DHL told me that they had no track of the parcel.
At this point, many of you will probably guess the outcome of the deep and careful paypal investigation. here it is, Paypal decided in favor of the seller and the claim was closed without any refund. What you won’t probably guess is the explanation given for such a resolution. Well, this is what popped up in my mailbox a few hours ago:

“Your seller has provided shipment tracking information in response to your claim.
We used the shipping company's online tracking service and found that it confirms delivery of the merchandise.
As a result, this case has been closed. We're happy we were able to help you resolve this issue.”

Delivery of merchandise. Did you read that?

Now please go the DHL tracking page and tell me if you see anything about delivery.
http://nolp.dhl.de/nextt-online-public/set_identcodes.do?lang=en&idc=961101085832



The parcel is stuck on “The shipment has been posted by the sender at the retail outlet” since June 16.
Basically, it never left the DHL store.
How can they have a proof of delivery?
It’s clearly an error. There’s no other explanation.
That’s what I thought while reading the notification, but then I decided to call paypal and they managed to surprise me even further.

After waiting 10 minutes at the phone for a further investigation the answer was that they decided in favor of the seller because she was able to provide proof of shipment to my exact address.
Then the conversation evolved pretty much this way:
ME: I can create a shipping label in less than 5 minutes. How can you be sure that the seller really shipped the parcel? And how can you say that it’s been delivered when the tracking system shows no progress at all?
PAYPAL: That’s an automatically generated mail. We have our way to check the shipment.
ME: Can I have a copy of what you call proof of shipment?
PAYPAL: No, that’s not possible.
ME: Never mind. I paid for the item, not for the proof of shipment. As you can see, the parcel has not been received so I’m covered by the buyer protection program. Right?
PAYPAL: I’m sorry. The seller provided proof of shipment so there’s nothing we can do.
ME: What? And what about the protection program?
PAYPAL: I’m sorry, you can keep saying that, but there’s nothing we can do. We can’t get the money back from the seller.
And the conversation ended somehow…

How is all this even possible? Can they really do this?
Can PayPal lie about the proof of delivery and refuse to refund a frauded buyer while the whole web is filled with their claims regarding the protection program and the money-back guarantee?

I have also spent a little bit of time re-reading the PayPal user agreement and I couldn’t find anything to justify such a resolution.
There is however an interesting claim in section 13.4

https://www.paypal.com/it/webapps/mpp/security/security-protection

13.4 How much coverage do I get with PayPal Buyer Protection?
a) If PayPal determines a Claim in your favor, PayPal will reimburse you the full purchase price of the item and original postage costs only.
b) PayPal will not reimburse you for the postage costs you incur to return a SNAD item to the seller or another party PayPal specifies.
If the seller presents evidence that they delivered the goods to your address, PayPal may find in favor of the seller even if you did not receive the goods. See section 13.10 for other protection you may be entitled to.

The text in bold is the most interesting part and unless I’m horribly wrong here it seems to state that an INR (Item Not Received) claim should be closed in favor of the buyer unless the seller is able to prove that the item was delivered to the buyer’s address.

Clearly, this is not the case. Paypal is lying about the proof of delivery because the parcel never left the DHL store.
Any idea? What should I do now? I know this is not a huge amount of money but things like this can really destroy a hobby and your trust.
I look forward to any comment or advice.

In the meantime, I can’t keep myself from reading over and over again the following claim found on paypal homepage:
“We've got your back. Shop with peace of mind, your eligible purchase is protected by us.
If it doesn’t show up or shows up different than described, we’ll send you a refund and help wrap things up with the seller”.

Yes, they really got my back!

Ebay order details


Paypal dispute


Paypal notification


Chat session with ebay
Erjon 17:29:12
How can I help you?

flash.pc 17:30:29
I'm interested in buying an item and would like to know how the protection program really works.

flash.pc 17:31:09
Assuming that I pay with paypal and nothing is received, how are you going to help me?

Erjon 17:33:39
If you pay with paypal you are covered by the protection program for 180 days since the date of purchase. Even if the seller ships the item and you don't receive it.

Erjon 17:33:40
The seller is responsible for delivering the item according to the conditions stated in the auction. The shipping service should be reliable, bla bla bla...

flash.pc 17:34:39
So I am guaranteed to receive the item. Let's say that the item is not delivered. Do you refund the whole amount?

Erjon 17:36:51
After you file a NRI (not received item) complaint, paypal starts an investigation to see whether or not the item has been delivered to the buyer's address? If it is not delivered, they will refund the whole payment.

flash.pc 17:38:10
Perfect. Now I'm much more relieved.

Erjon 17:39:14
Anything else I can help you with?

flash.pc 17:40:13
Yes, sure. I'd like to know why you refused to refund my payment for the item #221790550257 when even DHL confirmed that the parcel never left the country of origin.

Erjon 17:41:55
Ti chiedo gentilmente un attimo che verifico.
Please hold on while I check that.

Erjon 17:46:13
You can open a dispute by going here and clicking there. Bla bla bla...

flash.pc 17:48:34
I don't need you to show me how to open a dispute. I already did that and the case has been closed in favor of the seller regardless of the user agreement and everything you told me earlier. Please note that the full story has been reported in many public places and even the transcription of this chat will be available at the following address: http://goo.gl/xlHIoW

flash.pc 17:49:59
Can you hand this to a supervisor?

Erjon 17:51:33
My answers are perfectly consistent with the rules of this platform.

flash.pc 17:54:08
I know that, but your behavior and decisions are not.

Erjon 17:58:55
The dispute wasn't opened on ebay. You filed the complaint on paypal so you should talk to them.

flash.pc 18:03:22
When you try to open a NRI dispute you are automatically redirected to your paypal account. You know that. I've already contacted paypal and they said that I lost the dispute because the seller was able to provide a valid proof of shipment. This is obviously in contrast with what you just told be about the protection program.

System18:12:03
The chat session is being wrapped up.

System18:12:03
The chat session has ended.

System18:12:03
This chat was on 08/04/2015. All times in the above transcript are in the following time zone: (GMT) Greenwich Mean Time : Dublin, Edinburgh, Lisbon, London

[nctnico]

Why did you call Paypal? Just open an online claim stating the item hasn't arrived.

[bitseeker]

And contact DHL to get their confirmation on the receipt of the package (or lack thereof).

[ecom.gp]

And contact DHL to get their confirmation on the receipt of the package (or lack thereof).

They have no track of the package and told me to ask the seller for an investigation, which of course I did. No cooperation unfortunately.

[Fraser]

I hope your PayPal account is drawn on your credit card. Raise a dispute with the credit card company against PayPal. reason...... Non delivery of product.
Aurora

[ecom.gp]

Yes, I have a credit card linked to the account, but I used paypal funds for this purchase.
But the point is, can they do this? Aren't they violating the user agreement and everything stated on ebay/paypal about the buyer protection?

[Fraser]

The problem is who has authority over PayPal. You will likely hit a brick wall which is why I suggested the CC company. Sadly you appear to be stuffed unless you can find someone to listen in Paypal Customer Care.

Aurora

[firewalker]

Was does it mean "DHL has no track "the packet. Where is the packet shown on their tracking site? On 16/06/2015 something was delivered to DHL and a tracking number was issued. Where is the packet?

It seems to me that it is DHL issue also.

Alexander.

[ecom.gp]

They simply don't know.
As the parcel is insured, the seller will be probably refunded by DHL, but I've already lost my money!
Dealing with the courier is up to the seller. I simply can't start an investigation and "No track" is all I got from them.

[TheAmmoniacal]

The way I see it, eBay or PayPal is not to blame here, DHL is. And because you choose to use DHL, this is a problem between you and DHL. All other parties have done their part here.

File a complaint with DHL, if they can't find it they must reimburse you for the value of the package (provide a receipt for the contents). Contact their customer support immediately and get in touch with the right people.

DHL already fucked me over enough times that I refuse to use them ever again, but best wishes on your struggle.

[mcinque]

Why did you call Paypal? Just open an online claim stating the item hasn't arrived.

He HAS opened an online claim, but since it was closed without results, he called PayPal directly.

And contact DHL to get their confirmation on the receipt of the package (or lack thereof).

This could be a good start.

However, according to my clients in Italy, PayPal has decided to "cut the expenses", cutting out the "personal assistant" for those vendors who generate a lot of money, outsourcing all their call center in Romania/Eastern Europe. I don't know if they are managing in a bad way the claims, but your story it's an horrific PayPal experience.
It seem like you are talking with some stupid bureaucrat that doesn't understand what you're saying.

"We have our methods to check the shipment" without telling exactly what is the method, it's a complete nonsense.

Don't know if this lack of information entitle you to make a complaint against PayPal Italy by contacting Italian Postal Police.

[TheAmmoniacal]

If the seller has requested any insurance money, ask DHL for a confirmation of that payment so you can show PayPal that he has already been reimbursed (and thus been paid twice).

[ecom.gp]

Did you read the post? I'm not the seller! I didn't choose DHL and I'm not the one who can deal with DHL.
Anyway you say that all other parties have done their part here.
Can you please argument that?

[wraper]

The way I see it, eBay or PayPal is not to blame here, DHL is. And because you choose to use DHL, this is a problem between you and DHL. All other parties have done their part here.

File a complaint with DHL, if they can't find it they must reimburse you for the value of the package (provide a receipt for the contents). Contact their customer support immediately and get in touch with the right people.

DHL already fucked me over enough times that I refuse to use them ever again, but best wishes on your struggle.

Completely wrong. Pypal/ebay are indeed to blame. According to their rules, buyer gets refund if the item isn't delivered. Also he cannot issue any claim to DHL. First of all claim can be made only by sender. Receiver isn't their customer. Secondly, this isn't usual DHL but Deuche post DHL, therefore it is useless to contact usual DHL express service.

[ecom.gp]

If the seller has requested any insurance money, ask DHL for a confirmation of that payment so you can show PayPal that he has already been reimbursed (and thus been paid twice).

Thank you. I'll try to get something from them.
But after what I got from paypal I don't have much hope.
After all I've been textually told that I can keep arguing over and over but nothing is going to change.

[TheAmmoniacal]

(** my ramble **)

Completely wrong. Pypal/ebay are indeed to blame. According to their rules, buyer gets refund if the item isn't delivered. Also he cannot issue any claim to DHL. First of all claim can be made only by sender. Receiver isn't their customer. Secondly, this isn't usual DHL but Deuche post DHL, therefore it is useless to contact usual DHL express service.

You are correct if the seller sent the item with DHL, not if you paid DHL to pick it up. I just assumed the latter.. Guess I'm wrong.

[wraper]

(** my ramble **)

Completely wrong. Pypal/ebay are indeed to blame. According to their rules, buyer gets refund if the item isn't delivered. Also he cannot issue any claim to DHL. First of all claim can be made only by sender. Receiver isn't their customer. Secondly, this isn't usual DHL but Deuche post DHL, therefore it is useless to contact usual DHL express service.

You are correct if the seller sent the item with DHL, not if you paid DHL to pick it up. I just assumed the latter.. Guess I'm wrong.

This is Deuche post DHL, literally German post. Like USPS in US or Royal mail in UK. I really doubt you can arrange any collection from the abroad.

[kmel]

It seems to me that it is DHL issue also.

In Germany you can to a Mom and Pop store which is authorized by DHL and put your packet on their counter, fill out an order to transport the packet, stick the label on the packet, pay the shipping costs and you get a receipt with the tracking number.
Or you can do the preparation online, pay online, get the tracking number and print out the label and stick it on the packet. Go to the store with DHL  authorization and get a receipt in exchange of the packet.

So ask the seller for that receipt.
Then you can see which store or retail outlet has your packet right now.

As seller I am anxious that my packet does arrive the buyer as I am already paid for it. Otherwise I am acting fraudulently.
What does the seller say besides it should be shipped soon?

[PeterZ]

On a side note, there was a huge wave of strikes within the Deutsche Post and DHL lately in Germany. It was a total mess. I haven't received any post at all for a few weeks. One of my packages was sent, arrived somewhere at the DHL department in my town, where it took holidays for about 5 weeks. June was the month when the usual delivery time got left shifted a few bits.
As others pointed out, DHL is to blame here. Tracking shows the package was posted, but got stuck somewhere. The seller should request DHL to investigate the case.

[BillW50]

I have been buying things from eBay/PayPal since before 2001, I have lost about $1000 all of this time. Although I have spent about $15,000 since then. So it isn't a huge percentage or anything. But unless you want to hire a lawyer and be out more money, I am not sure what you can do.

[Rasz]

ME: Never mind. I paid for the item, not for the proof of shipment. As you can see, the parcel has not been received so I’m covered by the buyer protection program. Right?
PAYPAL: I’m sorry. The seller provided proof of shipment so there’s nothing we can do.
ME: What? And what about the protection program?
PAYPAL: I’m sorry, you can keep saying that, but there’s nothing we can do. We can’t get the money back from the seller.
And the conversation ended somehow…

Support people you talk to are there not to help you, but to cover company from liability. This is how I deal with situations like this.
- first and most important record a call, at the start of conversation ask them to repeat their name, this makes them think twice
- at the point your conversation ended I go "ok mister Dickens Fukwitkis, I will be filing a small claim lawsuit and your name will be plastered all over it as a person responsible. Im sure your managers, and managers of your managers will love it"

Used this couple of times, so far 100% success rate. For example incumbent telecom tried to extort money from me after I terminated my contract with them. They started spamming me with imaginary penalty bills. First time I called I got callcenter person agree it was a mistake and fix it temporarily. 3 months later it started again, this time support person was more combative, telling me I should pay and send them a formal letter asking for resolution and maybe refund LOL. I informed here I will be filing criminal extortion complaint to police, with her as at least a witness if not one of the perpetrators and BAM, like magic my issue was solved in 10 seconds.

[Stray Electron]

Was does it mean "DHL has no track "the packet. Where is the packet shown on their tracking site? On 16/06/2015 something was delivered to DHL and a tracking number was issued. Where is the packet?

It seems to me that it is DHL issue also.

Alexander.

   I agree. Unfortunately most shippers (I don't know about DHL) will only deal with the person that shipped the package and not with the intended reciperant or anyone else.

   Given Ebay/payPal's reputation for "always siding with the buyer", I'm very surprised that they denied the OP's claim.  Parts of his story don't make sense and I don't think we've heard the whole story here.

   I shipped an item to Italy ONE time.  It sat in Italian customs literally for six months while the buyer screamed at me.  The paper work was complete and correct and no reason for the delay was ever given, other that's just how things work (or don't!) in Italy.

     Never again!

[jlmoon]

I hope your PayPal account is drawn on your credit card. Raise a dispute with the credit card company against PayPal. reason...... Non delivery of product.
Aurora

That's exactly what you need to do.  The CC company will investigate and file a fraud case against the seller / pay-pal should they need to do that.  It is amazing how much influence the banks have when it comes to credit cards and their proper use. 

[ecom.gp]

Was does it mean "DHL has no track "the packet. Where is the packet shown on their tracking site? On 16/06/2015 something was delivered to DHL and a tracking number was issued. Where is the packet?

It seems to me that it is DHL issue also.

Alexander.

   I agree. Unfortunately most shippers (I don't know about DHL) will only deal with the person that shipped the package and not with the intended reciperant or anyone else.

   Given Ebay/payPal's reputation for "always siding with the buyer", I'm very surprised that they denied the OP's claim.  Parts of his story don't make sense and I don't think we've heard the whole story here.

   I shipped an item to Italy ONE time.  It sat in Italian customs literally for six months while the buyer screamed at me.  The paper work was complete and correct and no reason for the delay was ever given, other that's just how things work (or don't!) in Italy.

     Never again!

Tell me which part doesn't make sense to you and I'll do my best to clear it.
Given my situation I can understand your frustration for what happened to you, but your comment is a nonsense.
This has nothing to do with customs. There is no customs involved for parcels shipped within UE.
I've received many items shipped with DHL Paket International in the past and I know that they arrive in Italy in 2/3 working days (delivery on following day).
But before that there are a few checkpoints in Germany. Nothing of this happened. According to the tracking system the parcel never left the retail outlet.

Maybe this will help you understand:

Dear -----,
 
thank you for your request.
 
Please accept our apologies for our late reply.
 
According the shipment-number your parcel did not left Germany at the moment, please contact the sender to request an investigation.
 
We apologize for any inconvenience.
 
Do you have any further questions? Please don't hesitate to contact your customer service representative using the phone number given below.
 
In case you answer back via e-mail please refer to your first request.
 
Kind regards,
 
--------
 
Kundenservice
DHL Vertriebs GmbH
 
Telefon 0228 28609898
Kontakt: www.dhl.de
 
DHL Vertriebs GmbH; Sitz Bonn; Registergericht Bonn; HRB 19565
Geschäftsführung: Dr. Andrej Busch, Norman Chmiel, Heinrich Eilers, Katja Herbst, Dr. Thomas Ogilvie
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrates: Uwe Brinks

[edavid]

I would try calling PayPal again.  The agents seem to make up policies at random, so you might have more luck with a different person.

Did you ask to speak to a supervisor?